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yilduz
2009-06-19, 06:27 PM
Does Abjurant Armor really effect anything other than Shield? I can't find any other abjuration spells that give an armor or shield bonus to AC.

Keld Denar
2009-06-19, 06:33 PM
Yea, thats dumb.

Book of Exalted Deeds has Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor, which are Abjurations and would work.

Unfortunately, they are [Sanctified] spells and cause Str damage when you cast them...

J.Gellert
2009-06-19, 06:34 PM
Homebrew an Abjuration version of Greater Mage Armor. Tell your DM: "If it's balanced in Conjuration, the most overpowered school there is, it's definitely balanced in Abjuration, right?"

But I can't think of any more spells that fit, yeah. Maybe in Spell Compendium, but I don't have it nearby... Highly unlikely anyway, simple "Bonus to AC" spells are boring and thus rare to find outside the PH.

Salt_Crow
2009-06-19, 06:37 PM
"Having a previously non-existent extra +5 bonus to AC is balanced!" wouldn't exactly be a convincing statement in my book ;)

Yeah so the best spells would be LA series from BoED. Try to bypass that Str damage by binding Naberius (if AM)/having your cleric to cast Death Ward or Lesser Restoration etc etc.

You could also be a Jorasco halfling w/ mark of healing (ECS stuff I know) to just do it yourself. Hey, if you have a true dragonmark you can take another feat to gain immunity to daze too (Mark of Dauntless, Dragonmarked)! Unrestricted celerity anyone?

Douglas
2009-06-19, 06:39 PM
As I recall, the strength damage doesn't happen until the spell ends.

Eldariel
2009-06-19, 06:39 PM
Just say "the examples include Mage Armor, it's fair to give it to Abjuration as it's already been accounted for". Besides, Greater Luminous Armor has higher bonuses anyways; it actually has Wis-drain IIRC; Lesser Restoration per day will do.

Oblivious
2009-06-19, 06:42 PM
Given that Mage Armor was in the example, I believe it was an oversight on the writer's part.

Gralamin
2009-06-19, 06:44 PM
Honestly, there is little reason Mage armor shouldn't be in Abjuration anyway. Most DMs should be fine with transferring it over.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-19, 06:46 PM
Since we're on the topic - quick question:

If I have the ability to cast in Medium Armor (and am wearing Mithral Full plate) - I still get Shield as a bonus to AC right, because it's a Shield bonus? It sounds right in my head, but somehow I'm just not completely sure. >.<

(I ask because my Battle Sorcerer is looking at Abjurant Champion as a PrC in a couple levels)

quick_comment
2009-06-19, 06:47 PM
Heck, mage armor SHOULD be in abjuration.

Its made of force; where the hell are you conjuring that from?

Gralamin
2009-06-19, 06:48 PM
Since we're on the topic - quick question:

If I have the ability to cast in Medium Armor (and am wearing Mithral Full plate) - I still get Shield as a bonus to AC right, because it's a Shield bonus? It sounds right in my head, but somehow I'm just not completely sure. >.<

(I ask because my Battle Sorcerer is looking at Abjurant Champion as a PrC in a couple levels)

Shield does indeed grant a Shield bonus. So unless your wielding a Shield already, you get the bonus.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-19, 07:38 PM
Whew, thanks <~_~>b just wanted to be sure so I didn't end up getting my special abilities crossed with feats I'd taken, rendering one or the other useless. <@,@>b

Saph
2009-06-19, 07:57 PM
Complete Mage has been errata'd; check the WotC website. The Mage Armour example has been removed from the statistics block.

Honestly, Abjurant Champion is more than strong enough already; it's the best gish PrC around. Adding yet another +5 AC on top of the +5 it has already would make it overpowered.

- Saph

arguskos
2009-06-19, 08:00 PM
Complete Mage has been errata'd; check the WotC website. The Mage Armour example has been removed from the statistics block.

Honestly, Abjurant Champion is more than strong enough already; it's the best gish PrC around. Adding yet another +5 AC on top of the +5 it has already would make it overpowered.

- Saph
Still, it poses the question of why the quintessential defensive spell isn't in the defensive school of magic. Mage Armor SHOULD be an Abjuration spell, with or without Abj. Champ. in the equation.

Saph
2009-06-19, 08:05 PM
Still, it poses the question of why the quintessential defensive spell isn't in the defensive school of magic. Mage Armor SHOULD be an Abjuration spell, with or without Abj. Champ. in the equation.

Oh, I agree, it makes no sense. Force effects are totally inconsistent; given that Shield (Abj), Mage Armour (Conj), and Wall of Force (Evo) all do more or less the same thing on different scales, how on earth can they be in three different schools?

But Abjurant Champion is plenty good enough without the boost. By level 10 or so an Abjurant Champion gish can get his AC to almost-unhittable levels even without an extra +5 on his Greater Mage Armour.

- Saph

peacenlove
2009-06-19, 08:10 PM
Should you utilize mysteries in your game, the Steel Shadows mystery is a first level abjuration mystery that grants both an armor and a shield bonus to Armor class.

arguskos
2009-06-19, 08:31 PM
Oh, I agree, it makes no sense. Force effects are totally inconsistent; given that Shield (Abj), Mage Armour (Conj), and Wall of Force (Evo) all do more or less the same thing on different scales, how on earth can they be in three different schools?

But Abjurant Champion is plenty good enough without the boost. By level 10 or so an Abjurant Champion gish can get his AC to almost-unhittable levels even without an extra +5 on his Greater Mage Armour.

- Saph
True enough, but this isn't about the Abjurant Champion being really good (though it is). It's just that defensive/force effects are SOOO scatterbrained that it's impossible to tell who is meant to have what anymore. I'm glad I shifted most of the force spells to abjuration and called it a day. :smallbiggrin:

Really, WotC, your design for 3.5 was... "meh", to be nice. I have stronger language, but it's not forum-friendly. :smallannoyed:

Eldariel
2009-06-19, 08:54 PM
True enough, but this isn't about the Abjurant Champion being really good (though it is). It's just that defensive/force effects are SOOO scatterbrained that it's impossible to tell who is meant to have what anymore. I'm glad I shifted most of the force spells to abjuration and called it a day. :smallbiggrin:

Really, WotC, your design for 3.5 was... "meh", to be nice. I have stronger language, but it's not forum-friendly. :smallannoyed:

Rant regarding school arrangement in 3.5:
This is really the reason I like the idea of combining Evocation and Abjuration (and uh, tossing those random Conjurations that somehow ended in Conjuration into this mix). Things might actually make sense then. Oh, and fixes up two relatively weak schools into a thing that's right up there.

Now, if there only were some way to combine Necromancy and Enchantment without stretching plausibility... But alas, I think the only way to make that happen is to break up one into other school (Illusion and Enchantment mostly combine just fine) and buff the other one (giving Necromancy all spells that work with positive or negative energy could work, and would be in line with what the school is supposed to do; Conjuration (Healing) what now :smallconfused:).


But honestly, the schools in 3.5 make no sense whatsoever. They work on many different levels; Abjuration hogs spells by their goal while most of the other schools take them by effect, Evocation mostly takes them by being involved with energy while Conjuration takes the ones that involve creating or calling (including creating and calling energy, go figure), Transmutation has everything that involves changing things except when they involve altering magic or changing energy and then mysteriously has the ability to change time and also some random cases where it involves dimension hopping , while Enchantment has stuff that alters peoples' minds unless it gathers information from the said mind in which case it's a Divination and...just [b]ugh. A drunk 3-year old could do it more coherently...

KillianHawkeye
2009-06-19, 08:58 PM
Just use the luminous armor spells. The best way to get around the Strength damage is with a Rod of Bodily Restoration (from the MIC) which only costs 3100 gp!

arguskos
2009-06-19, 09:01 PM
Rant regarding school arrangement in 3.5:
This is really the reason I like the idea of combining Evocation and Abjuration (and uh, tossing those random Conjurations that somehow ended in Conjuration into this mix). Things might actually make sense then. Oh, and fixes up two relatively weak schools into a thing that's right up there.

Now, if there only were some way to combine Necromancy and Enchantment without stretching plausibility... But alas, I think the only way to make that happen is to break up one into other school (Illusion and Enchantment mostly combine just fine) and buff the other one (giving Necromancy all spells that work with positive or negative energy could work, and would be in line with what the school is supposed to do; Conjuration (Healing) what now :smallconfused:).


But honestly, the schools in 3.5 make no sense whatsoever. They work on many different levels; Abjuration hogs spells by their goal while most of the other schools take them by effect, Evocation mostly takes them by being involved with energy while Conjuration takes the ones that involve creating or calling (including creating and calling energy, go figure), Transmutation has everything that involves changing things except when they involve altering magic or changing energy and then mysteriously has the ability to change time and also some random cases where it involves dimension hopping , while Enchantment has stuff that alters peoples' minds unless it gathers information from the said mind in which case it's a Divination and...just [b]ugh. A drunk 3-year old could do it more coherently...

Heh, I hear that, I really do. I tend to group the schools the following way, which makes sense thematically (to me anyways):
Abjuration: defensive spells, forcefields, etc.
Conjuration: dealing with matter (and ONLY matter), makes stuff, removes stuff, but does not deal with the energy types in anyway at all; if it is made of an energy type, it's evocation; if it's made of matter as we traditionally understand it, it's conjuration
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: dealing with energy (and ONLY energy), either creating it or destroying it
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself; enchantment screws with their head, illusion screws with their senses
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist; is unlike conjuration in that it doesn't MAKE things, it just CHANGES things.

It's not a perfect system, but it works out alright for me. Whadda ya think, Eldariel?

yilduz
2009-06-19, 09:10 PM
Heh, I hear that, I really do. I tend to group the schools the following way, which makes sense thematically (to me anyways):
Abjuration: defensive spells, forcefields, etc.
Conjuration: dealing with matter (and ONLY matter), makes stuff, removes stuff, but does not deal with the energy types in anyway at all; if it is made of an energy type, it's evocation; if it's made of matter as we traditionally understand it, it's conjuration
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: dealing with energy (and ONLY energy), either creating it or destroying it
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself; enchantment screws with their head, illusion screws with their senses
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist; is unlike conjuration in that it doesn't MAKE things, it just CHANGES things.

It's not a perfect system, but it works out alright for me. Whadda ya think, Eldariel?

In that system, do you classify cure spells as evocation?

arguskos
2009-06-19, 09:14 PM
No, necromancy holds the singular exception to evocation's monopoly on energy. As you'll see I said under necromancy: "positive/negative energy is necromancy's domain".

Necromancy, being the magic of life and death makes sense to channel the energies of life and death. Evocation channels the elemental energies (fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, force, etc).

As I said, it's not a perfect system, but I think it makes faaar more sense than what we currently have.

yilduz
2009-06-19, 09:20 PM
No, necromancy holds the singular exception to evocation's monopoly on energy. As you'll see I said under necromancy: "positive/negative energy is necromancy's domain".

Necromancy, being the magic of life and death makes sense to channel the energies of life and death. Evocation channels the elemental energies (fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, force, etc).

As I said, it's not a perfect system, but I think it makes faaar more sense than what we currently have.

Well, that's what is awesome about this game. If you don't like something, change it. :smallbiggrin:

When I was reading your descriptions, I kind of skipped over necromancy. >_>
I always skip over that school for some reason, even though I think a necromancer would be incredibly fun to play from a role playing view.

arguskos
2009-06-19, 09:26 PM
Well, that's what is awesome about this game. If you don't like something, change it. :smallbiggrin:

When I was reading your descriptions, I kind of skipped over necromancy. >_>
I always skip over that school for some reason, even though I think a necromancer would be incredibly fun to play from a role playing view.
Dude, I miss stuff all the time. 'salright. In any case, I do like 3.5 because of that reason alone: I can change things easily, and don't really have to worry about the power level consequences, since it can't really get much worse. :smallamused:

yilduz
2009-06-19, 09:30 PM
Dude, I miss stuff all the time. 'salright. In any case, I do like 3.5 because of that reason alone: I can change things easily, and don't really have to worry about the power level consequences, since it can't really get much worse. :smallamused:

It can. I've seen it. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2009-06-19, 09:30 PM
Heh, I hear that, I really do. I tend to group the schools the following way, which makes sense thematically (to me anyways):
Abjuration: defensive spells, forcefields, etc.
Conjuration: dealing with matter (and ONLY matter), makes stuff, removes stuff, but does not deal with the energy types in anyway at all; if it is made of an energy type, it's evocation; if it's made of matter as we traditionally understand it, it's conjuration
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: dealing with energy (and ONLY energy), either creating it or destroying it
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself; enchantment screws with their head, illusion screws with their senses
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist; is unlike conjuration in that it doesn't MAKE things, it just CHANGES things.

It's not a perfect system, but it works out alright for me. Whadda ya think, Eldariel?
I think you've mostly got it down, but Abjuration is still working off a completely different basis than other schools with "defensive spells" while others are categorized by what the spell deals with; if we want to be consistent, that doesn't work 'cause it leads to stuff like Wall of Stone or Stoneskin being easily rationalized to Abjuration. I think giving Abjuration Force effects entirely makes sense. Sure, that leads to Magic Missile being an Abjuration, but if that's the price one has to pay for consistency, so be it.

The only alternative I see to that is giving Evocation momentary bursts of energy and Abjuration longterm generation of energy (Prismatic effects are just a combination of energy types anyways, so otherwise they should all go to Evocation); that leaves Evocation mostly intact minus Wall of Force and few others, while giving Abjuration everything it's due and leaving offensive stuff out of it. Then just haul Teleportation-effects to Evocation (for balance's sake, and 'cause flavouring teleportation as a burst of energy opening a "wormhole" between the locations and moving the subjects through isn't really out there any more than "altering the matter" or "calling yourself away"; Transmutation and Conjuration respectively).

This should lead to a relatively solid system, and a relatively balanced one at that (although Enchantment would still suck and continues to do so as long as a blanket immunity in Mind Blank exists; hell, at least there should be a relevant amount of Enchantment-based buffs if nothing else). At least it isn't so swiss cheese that you can literally rationalize any spell in any school, and it looks slightly more solid than what that drunk 3-year old could come up with; this should probably already be about on the level of a sober 3-year old's work.

arguskos
2009-06-19, 09:40 PM
It can. I've seen it. :smalltongue:
Bah, we ignore the epic rules. :smalltongue:


I think you've mostly got it down, but Abjuration is still working off a completely different basis than other schools with "defensive spells" while others are categorized by what the spell deals with; if we want to be consistent, that doesn't work 'cause it leads to stuff like Wall of Stone or Stoneskin being easily rationalized to Abjuration. I think giving Abjuration Force effects entirely makes sense. Sure, that leads to Magic Missile being an Abjuration, but if that's the price one has to pay for consistency, so be it.

The only alternative I see to that is giving Evocation momentary bursts of energy and Abjuration longterm generation of energy (Prismatic effects are just a combination of energy types anyways, so otherwise they should all go to Evocation); that leaves Evocation mostly intact minus Wall of Force and few others, while giving Abjuration everything it's due and leaving offensive stuff out of it. Then just haul Teleportation-effects to Evocation (for balance's sake, and 'cause flavouring teleportation as a burst of energy opening a "wormhole" between the locations and moving the subjects through isn't really out there any more than "altering the matter" or "calling yourself away"; Transmutation and Conjuration respectively).

This should lead to a relatively solid system, and a relatively balanced one at that (although Enchantment would still suck and continues to do so as long as a blanket immunity in Mind Blank exists; hell, at least there should be a relevant amount of Enchantment-based buffs if nothing else). At least it isn't so swiss cheese that you can literally rationalize any spell in any school, and it looks slightly more solid than what that drunk 3-year old could come up with; this should probably already be about on the level of a sober 3-year old's work.
Are you calling me a 3-year old sir? I must take offense!
Yeah, that's something I have thought about. I can see changing Abj to long-term generation and Evoc to short-term.

Teleportation is something I actually couldn't reconcile with any of the schools, and so I did something radical: moved it to Universal. It doesn't fit most other places, and where it DOES fit, it's tenuous at best. I was thinking about what to do with it, so I moved it to Universal, reasoning "it doesn't fit too well anywhere else, so let's put it there and say that teleportation is something every mage can learn".

Eldariel
2009-06-19, 09:51 PM
Y'know what? The OP has been answered and the thread opener is involved in the conversation. These spoilers merely serve to make it harder to read. Screw that.


Are you calling me a 3-year old sir? I must take offense!

You and me both. See, you can't get mad at me when I'm being equalitarian (or close enough...or well nothing like it, but you get the point).:smalltongue:


Yeah, that's something I have thought about. I can see changing Abj to long-term generation and Evoc to short-term.

Teleportation is something I actually couldn't reconcile with any of the schools, and so I did something radical: moved it to Universal. It doesn't fit most other places, and where it DOES fit, it's tenuous at best. I was thinking about what to do with it, so I moved it to Universal, reasoning "it doesn't fit too well anywhere else, so let's put it there and say that teleportation is something every mage can learn".

Sorta makes sense. That really forces you to do same with Summoning and Calling too though 'cause they have about as much to do with creation of matter as bursts of energy have to do with probing peoples' minds. I think it's "cleaner" to just cram them into other schools or just make a new school for them (really, Teleportation, Summoning and Calling pretty much all belong to the same school unless we extend Conjuration to cover all meanings of the verb, which would make it mean "creating matter or calling/summoning creatures" which really makes no sense in the grand context of the things but works with the meaning of the word).

But bleh, I think Teleportation in Universal works fine - no sane man would want to prohibit the school that grants Teleportation anyways ever so this gets around that. Provided we give the basic Core evocations the facelift they deserve (like tac on Explosive Spell to Fireball, save vs. Daze to Lightning Bolt and some variety of Slow-effect to Cone of Cold; repeat for their improved iteratives), this should be pretty damn balanced too.

valadil
2009-06-19, 10:09 PM
If you have a way of gaining access to cleric spells, Shield of Faith is an abjuration with an AC bonus of some sort, so I think it should work. Might wanna check to make sure it's the right type of bonus though.

arguskos
2009-06-19, 10:15 PM
Y'know what? The OP has been answered and the thread opener is involved in the conversation. These spoilers merely serve to make it harder to read. Screw that.
Thank GODS! It was getting aggravating.


You and me both. See, you can't get mad at me when I'm being equalitarian (or close enough...or well nothing like it, but you get the point).:smalltongue:
I hearby move that we establish the First National Empire of Three-Year Olds for D&D!


Sorta makes sense. That really forces you to do same with Summoning and Calling too though 'cause they have about as much to do with creation of matter as bursts of energy have to do with probing peoples' minds. I think it's "cleaner" to just cram them into other schools or just make a new school for them (really, Teleportation, Summoning and Calling pretty much all belong to the same school unless we extend Conjuration to cover all meanings of the verb, which would make it mean "creating matter or calling/summoning creatures" which really makes no sense in the grand context of the things but works with the meaning of the word).

But bleh, I think Teleportation in Universal works fine - no sane man would want to prohibit the school that grants Teleportation anyways ever so this gets around that. Provided we give the basic Core evocations the facelift they deserve (like tac on Explosive Spell to Fireball, save vs. Daze to Lightning Bolt and some variety of Slow-effect to Cone of Cold; repeat for their improved iteratives), this should be pretty damn balanced too.
That's the idea. Teleportation is one of those effects every mage SHOULD get anyways, since it's a staple. Also, I've been thinking about tacking special effects onto Blasty McBlasterson spells, but haven't gotten around to it yet. What do you think, explosive effects on incendiaries, daze/stun on electric spells, slows for cold spells, blinding for acid spells, and... something for sonic?

That leaves spells like Scorching Ray out in the cold though, since adding explosive effects to a ray doesn't make much sense. And what do sonic and force spells get, if anything?

Douglas
2009-06-19, 10:21 PM
Deafen is the obvious one for sonic. A little weak, but sonic's good enough already imo because resistance to it is so rare.

Eldariel
2009-06-19, 10:27 PM
That leaves spells like Scorching Ray out in the cold though, since adding explosive effects to a ray doesn't make much sense. And what do sonic and force spells get, if anything?

If we need to do something, let's say Scorching Ray can set things on fire. Although I'm not sure if that's even necessary; it's already the most efficient damage dealing spell in the game capping at 12d6 for level 2 without save.

As for Force, its specialty is being pure energy; therefore it deals pure damage. No point in making Force anything else - it's special 'cause you can't negate or avoid the damage in any way. Sonic, yeah, deafness is good. It already has a specialty of dealing extra damage to objects; I think that's enough for it. And being hard to resist is a specialty too.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-19, 10:28 PM
That leaves spells like Scorching Ray out in the cold though, since adding explosive effects to a ray doesn't make much sense. And what do sonic and force spells get, if anything?

Sonic would get deafening, of course, as douglas said. Force...well, you set things on fire, you deafen people with sound, you give people seizures with electricity...but with force, you just destroy. That means one of two things: bumping up force damage spells (right now they have less damage due to incorporeality and ignoring resistances, but if everything else gets a free rider effect they need to be improved) or giving them some "pure arcane energy" type properties, like dealing harder-than-normal-to-heal damage or messing with defensive magic.

arguskos
2009-06-19, 10:51 PM
So, let's record this:
Abjuration: creates long-standing energy effects; monopoly on force effects
Conjuration: creates/destroys matter (and only matter); summons creatures
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: creates short-term energy effects; monopoly on the five energy types
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist
Universal: gains anything with the [teleportation] subtype; all spells gain the [awesome] subtype (checking to see if you're still paying attention :smallwink:)

The energy types get an upgrade:
Fire- causes either explosive spell-like effects -or- causes burns and lights stuff on fire.
Electricity- causes dazing/stunning, depending on the spell and exact effect.
Cold- causes slow-like and hold-like effects, depending on the spell and exact effect
Acid- causes blinding
Sonic- causes deafening, still does extra damage to objects
Force- damage dice increase to a bit above the other energy types (perhaps shift to d8s?) but gets no extra effects

Sound like a plan? If this all looks good, I might just make some homebrew in the next few days to this effect. I've been itching to get my 'brew on these past few days.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 11:00 PM
So, let's record this:
Abjuration: creates long-standing energy effects; monopoly on force effects
Conjuration: creates/destroys matter (and only matter); summons creatures
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: creates short-term energy effects; monopoly on the five energy types
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist
Universal: gains anything with the [teleportation] subtype; all spells gain the [awesome] subtype (checking to see if you're still paying attention :smallwink:)

The energy types get an upgrade:
Fire- causes either explosive spell-like effects -or- causes burns and lights stuff on fire.
Electricity- causes dazing/stunning, depending on the spell and exact effect.
Cold- causes slow-like and hold-like effects, depending on the spell and exact effect
Acid- causes blinding
Sonic- causes deafening, still does extra damage to objects
Force- damage dice increase to a bit above the other energy types (perhaps shift to d8s?) but gets no extra effects

Sound like a plan? If this all looks good, I might just make some homebrew in the next few days to this effect. I've been itching to get my 'brew on these past few days.Are you sure you want to keep the same number of schools? I could see merging Abj and Evoc(with a couple Abj going elsewhere), Illusion and Enchantment, and maybe splitting Necro down. You'd havve to look at the specialization system, but it seems better than keeping the same number of schools, when the system for creating them was so odd.

arguskos
2009-06-19, 11:14 PM
Are you sure you want to keep the same number of schools? I could see merging Abj and Evoc(with a couple Abj going elsewhere), Illusion and Enchantment, and maybe splitting Necro down. You'd havve to look at the specialization system, but it seems better than keeping the same number of schools, when the system for creating them was so odd.
Yes. I actually LIKE the 8 school system, and as I showed above, one can delineate them with little trouble. 3.5 is borked anyways, with or without 8 schools, so really, I'd have to brew everything anyways.

Really, the schools themselves aren't the issue. The older games never had issues with them, just 3.5, since WotC made 3rd Edition without knowing what they were doing, and so just lumped stuff together like idiots.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 11:19 PM
Yes. I actually LIKE the 8 school system, and as I showed above, one can delineate them with little trouble. 3.5 is borked anyways, with or without 8 schools, so really, I'd have to brew everything anyways.

Really, the schools themselves aren't the issue. The older games never had issues with them, just 3.5, since WotC made 3rd Edition without knowing what they were doing, and so just lumped stuff together like idiots.Yeah, you can deliniate them, but not necessarily in good ways. Your Enchantment and Illusion, for example. Yes, that's a better explanation than WotC gave, but is it really a necessary one? Similarly, is there any reason not to throw most of Abjuration into Evoc, since you're homebrewing already?

arguskos
2009-06-19, 11:29 PM
Yeah, you can deliniate them, but not necessarily in good ways. Your Enchantment and Illusion, for example. Yes, that's a better explanation than WotC gave, but is it really a necessary one? Similarly, is there any reason not to throw most of Abjuration into Evoc, since you're homebrewing already?
Because they serve different purposes, though that's not really how I grouped things and tangential to the conversation at hand.

Combining them is basically the same idea as discarding schools altogether and letting any mage learn anything. Really, schools serve NO purpose, except to be there, right? So, let's get rid of all of them. Why go halfway?

It's the 4e alignment argument. You can keep alignment, or you can discard it, but don't do it halfway. :smallwink: There's no really good argument for combining them that you can't boil down to "spell schools aren't a good/needed/whatever idea, let's ditch them". And, much like alignment, you either like them or don't. :smallsmile:

yilduz
2009-06-20, 07:36 AM
Without schools, you can't have specialist wizards. Also, if you get rid of abjuration, the PrC that this thread is about starts to suck a bit.

Even if you got rid of some schools, specialist wizards would all start to become more similar to all the other specialist wizards. Fewer schools to specialize in, fewer schools to prohibit, it starts making everything look like a cookie cutter.

Dagren
2009-06-20, 08:27 AM
Force- damage dice increase to a bit above the other energy types (perhaps shift to d8s?) but gets no extra effectsI wouldn't set it like that, bump them up a dice type, so MM gives d6+1 say. I'm pretty sure I've read some other spells that give dice other than d6 too.

J.Gellert
2009-06-20, 08:52 AM
Easier to just do away with schools completely and re-arrange spells based on what they do. Buffs, Debuffs, Damage, Summons, Healing, and so on.

That way you avoid silliness like
"Fireball evokes fire, so it's Evocation... but Orb of Fire conjures fire so it's conjuration! Nevermind that they are basically the same thing!"

Really, some WotC designers must've been drunk and/or high when they were... designing.

Eldariel
2009-06-20, 09:40 AM
So, let's record this:
Abjuration: creates long-standing energy effects; monopoly on force effects
Conjuration: creates/destroys matter (and only matter); summons creatures
Divination: seeing spells, knowledge gathering, penetrating defenses
Enchantment: mind control, things that directly affect the psyche of other beings
Evocation: creates short-term energy effects; monopoly on the five energy types
Illusion: deals with magical effects that alter the senses without altering the mind itself
Necromancy: the magic of life and death; positive/negative energy are necromancy's domain
Transmutation: deals with the alteration of creatures or objects that already exist
Universal: gains anything with the [teleportation] subtype; all spells gain the [awesome] subtype (checking to see if you're still paying attention :smallwink:)

The energy types get an upgrade:
Fire- causes either explosive spell-like effects -or- causes burns and lights stuff on fire.
Electricity- causes dazing/stunning, depending on the spell and exact effect.
Cold- causes slow-like and hold-like effects, depending on the spell and exact effect
Acid- causes blinding
Sonic- causes deafening, still does extra damage to objects
Force- damage dice increase to a bit above the other energy types (perhaps shift to d8s?) but gets no extra effects

Sound like a plan? If this all looks good, I might just make some homebrew in the next few days to this effect. I've been itching to get my 'brew on these past few days.

This looks pretty good, but with the "temporary vs. longterm energy effects"-rule in place, I'd split Force and Prismatic effects between Abjuration and Evocation. This basically means Evocation gets Magic Missile and Prismatic Spray.

Also, I'm not 100% on making Acid Evocation too; I mean, Acid is actually matter, it's energy. There's a reason Acid Arrow has been Conjuration all the time - it's like poison, it's matter. Anyways, that's a minor point.


But by and large, I agree (wow, Universal is gonna be busted).

only1doug
2009-06-20, 09:44 AM
In answer to the OP, there is a abjuration armour spell in spell compendium, Ectoplasmic armour, provides an Armour bonus to AC against incorporeal touch attacks. (L1 spell, 1hr /level). My gish casts it every day (because at Caster Level 12+ it lasts all day) I haven't yet been attacked by anything with a incorporeal touch attack, but when I am they are in for a BIG suprise.

Zeful
2009-06-20, 12:13 PM
That way you avoid silliness like
"Fireball evokes fire, so it's Evocation... but Orb of Fire conjures fire so it's conjuration! Nevermind that they are basically the same thing!"

Orb of Fire conjures non-magical fire, and propels it in a non-magical way (somehow justifying a ranged touch attack), and deals 1d6 damage per caster level.

There are three things wrong with that sentence.
*Non-magical deals 1d6 damage a round, without exception, therefore Orb of Fire is not conjuration.
*A rogue cannot throw a dagger in any way that justifies a ranged-touch attack without taking feats, while a wizard can throw a ball of fire and somehow get a ranged touch attack out of it, with no feats, therefore Orb of Fire is not Conjuration.
*Non-magical fire requires a fuel source of some kind to power it. Without that fuel source the fire extinguishes itself. Orb of Fire summons/creates fire (technically it creates acid that deals fire damage as per the "As Orb of Acid except" line) without a fuel source and it persists for more than a brief second. Therefore Orb of Fire is not Conjuration.

The Orb of X spells, if are to remain conjuration, should axe Cold, Sonic, Lightning, and Force (leaving Fire and Acid), deal 1d6 damage per round, require an attack roll and have "Reflex Negates" for the save line. Otherwise they should be Evocation.

arguskos
2009-06-20, 04:56 PM
This looks pretty good, but with the "temporary vs. longterm energy effects"-rule in place, I'd split Force and Prismatic effects between Abjuration and Evocation. This basically means Evocation gets Magic Missile and Prismatic Spray.

Also, I'm not 100% on making Acid Evocation too; I mean, Acid is actually matter, it's energy. There's a reason Acid Arrow has been Conjuration all the time - it's like poison, it's matter. Anyways, that's a minor point.

But by and large, I agree (wow, Universal is gonna be busted).
Yeah, I can dig giving Pris. Spray and Magic Missile to Evocation. Makes sense too. :smallbiggrin:

I think that many, if not all, acid spells DO need to be Evocation. The Acid Arrow hits and vanishes, but the lingering magic leaves a touch of acid behind to burn them later. It doesn't create non-magical acid and hurl it in a non-magical way. It's magic acid and it's short lived. By the argument of "well, it's matter" so is Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall, and Acid Breath, all of which are energy effects, and thus fall into Abjuration or Evocation. That line of thought it what led to Conjuration being too powerful in 3.5, let's not make the same mistake again. :smallwink:

On that note, Evocation has a max duration in my mind of round/level, while Abjuration spells can last hours or days/level. That's the delineation line between short-term and long-term to me.

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 05:00 PM
Heck, mage armor SHOULD be in abjuration.

Its made of force; where the hell are you conjuring that from?

Or evocation, seeing how almost all the spells with the [Force] descriptor are in that school.

[edit]
As for the conjure vs. evoke debate, what if all conjuration spells couldn't be cast in dimensionally locked areas, since there's nowhere to conjure the spells from? Evocations could still go off, since you're actually making things out of magic, momentarily.