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Stormthorn
2009-06-19, 09:12 PM
Two casters of arbitrarily high level are fighting each other. Lets assume no epic spells used and both are pure wizards for simplicity. My questions are these:
Spellcaster A gets to prepare defensive spells- What would he cast? (up to...say...level 13 spells)
Spellcaster B is going to break As defenses although he doesnt know exactly what they are. What spells should he prepare?

arguskos
2009-06-19, 09:16 PM
They both prepare nothing but Wish, and Wish at each other til someone dies. :smallwink:

Actually, I'll wait for a rules guru to come and correct me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Stormthorn
2009-06-19, 09:18 PM
I was thinking that disjunction and time stop might both be important. And Disintegrate depending upon what sort of things it can break through.

Flickerdart
2009-06-19, 09:18 PM
Wish gives SR, which makes it susceptible to Spell Immunity.

The first wizard to win initiative wins, since his Contingent Greater Celerity Maximized Time Stop goes off and he pulverizes the other guy. If it's defensive guy that went first, then he Dimensional Anchors the other guy and leaves.

Douglas
2009-06-19, 10:00 PM
Wish gives SR, which makes it susceptible to Spell Immunity.
Even Greater Spell Immunity only goes up to 8th level spells, so it won't work against Wish.


The first wizard to win initiative wins, since his Contingent Greater Celerity Maximized Time Stop goes off and he pulverizes the other guy. If it's defensive guy that went first, then he Dimensional Anchors the other guy and leaves.
The defensive guy has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) and laughs at you.

Assuming the offensive guy gets to prebuff himself too (it would be silly for him not to), his Ray Deflection deflects the Dimensional Anchor.

There are many, many, many ways for high level and especially epic casters to prepare for and preemptively negate all sorts of potential kinds of attacks.

Edit: This party (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794) uses just about every long duration or Persistable defensive spell in existence for 3.5, along with quite a few others, plus a lot of the more useful defensive magic items that can't be duplicated by spells. The main thing they don't have is certain uses of Contingency (had to pick just one) and crafted contingent spells.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-20, 12:31 AM
Wizard A probably uses Astral Projection and Plane Shift so that he's safe inside his demiplane (Genesis is not an epic spell) while a copy of him does the fighting.

Wizard B has his own demiplane, where time goes by 14,400 times faster than on the material plane. He casts Gate to open a portal to his demiplane, takes a move-action to step through, and has 24 hours of actions before Wizard A gets to take another turn. He can cast as many spells as he wants through the Gate (its duration is measured in material plane rounds), rest and prepare the right spells, have a snack, put on a puppet show, and then leisurely defeat Wizard A, if it would even be possible.

Stormthorn
2009-06-20, 09:32 AM
But how does he get time to move that fast? Genesis specifies that you can change terrain, not temporality.

Also, i hear this Celerity thing thrown around a lot when talking about spellcasting and cheese. Yet the only Celerity i know of is a Divine Ability.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-20, 09:46 AM
You don't know Celerity?:confused:
It activates as an immediate action, and gives you an action. Lesser gives you a move action, normal gives you a standard action, and greater gives you a full round. After that happens, you're stunned for a round. It cannot be activated if flat-footed or otherwise surprised.

Immunity to stun is easy, and some prestige classes let you cast it all the time (never surprised). You now get a free round whenever attacked.

Keld Denar
2009-06-20, 09:48 AM
Celerity is a spell in the PHBII. Comes in 3 flavors. All are immediate actions that let you take an action now, but then stun you till your next turn. Lesser grants a move, regular grants a standard, and greater grants a full round.

Just whip up some Immunity to stunning (be undead, or Lim Wish for Favor of the Martyr (Pal4, SpC)) and you don't suffer the side effects.

And yea...Genesis lets you adjust all planar traits of a plane. According to the DMG, temporal traits are just as much part of a plane as morphology.

So, pretty much, the aggressor can't win, since he's fighting the defender on his own turf where he's essentially a god, and if the defender wins and slays the aggressor, all hes doing is slaying a projection since the real aggressor is safely home on his own plane projecting himself astrally.

Stalemate. Thats why epic wizards don't duke it out. When you have a 40+ Int, you can recognize futility when you see it. Instead, you play the bigger game of messin with factions and religions and whatnot, maybe usurping demon lords or slaying gods to steal their portfolios.

erhnamdj
2009-06-20, 09:51 AM
The arcane version of the Genesis spell allows you to alter time traits. Celerity is a line of spells found in the Player's Handbook 2. Immediate action and it allows you to take standard actions.

Both of the wizards should have Craft Contingent Spell and as many Contingent miracles as possible. They should also both be Shapechanged into Dire Tortoises for every second of every day.

The general consensus is that, without epic spells or divine ranks higher than 5, neither can defeat the other unless they leave their demiplanes.

woodenbandman
2009-06-20, 09:53 AM
Note: It's Dazed. Big difference. Wayyy harder to get immunity to daze (only Favored of the Martyr does that).

Stormthorn
2009-06-20, 09:57 AM
Celerity is a spell in the PHBII.

Sinc eall i have is the SRD, DMs guide, MM, and Lords of Madness that would explain me not knowing Celerity.

It occurs to me that the less i have the less my (really cheapskate) party that doesnt own their own books will have, thus preventing things from getting too hectic.

EDIT: and a few forgotten realms things.

ALSO: Does Automatic Quicken Spell apply to the base spell or the finished spell with metamagic included? Because if its the metamagic'd level and not the base level my wizard villain will need to take it four times. That extra feat is important.

Douglas
2009-06-20, 12:22 PM
ALSO: Does Automatic Quicken Spell apply to the base spell or the finished spell with metamagic included? Because if its the metamagic'd level and not the base level my wizard villain will need to take it four times. That extra feat is important.
Automatic Quicken Spell depends on the spell's level, not the level of the slot used to cast it. With the single exception of Heighten Spell (plus one or two others in certain splatbooks), metamagic feats do not change the level of a spell. Therefore, AQS ignores all metamagics applied to any given spell except Heighten Spell when determining whether it applies.

Stormthorn
2009-06-20, 11:31 PM
So if im level 80 and i have Automatic Quicken Spell 3 and Multispell 10 i can cast 11 spells in one round?

And i have Impoved Metamagic 2 and Spell Capacity 5.

So i could cast 5 quickened maximized twined disintegrates after my 5 Quickened disjunctions and my Quickened Wish to take the enemy (and his guards) into my own demiplane? And a prestigiditation to clean up the ashes afterwords.

Douglas
2009-06-20, 11:33 PM
12, actually. One non-quickened, one quickened for the normal limit, and ten extra for Multispell x10.

Stormthorn
2009-06-20, 11:37 PM
I expanded the post for a sample set of 12 spells.

Douglas
2009-06-20, 11:48 PM
Your example is valid. It would take eleven 9th level spell slots and one 0th level slot to do so. If you don't have that many 9th level slots, you could use your 10th level and higher slots to make up the difference. The enemy and each of his guards would get a will save against the Wish, however, so you'd be more likely to need multiple Wishes than multiple Disjunctions - unless there are Contingencies involved specifically against Disjunction.

Stormthorn
2009-06-21, 12:48 AM
Im designing a level 80 lich librarian Diviner.

If someone messes with his extraplanar library he has spells up to level 15 and a high enough Int to get bonus spells at every level.

If people are annoying him i was planning on his "sit down and shut up" spell being a...wait...let me get all my metamgic together.

Twined Quickened (auto), Nonleathal Substitution, Sanctum Spell, Intensified, Stilled, Silent, Greater Shout from a caster with a base Int of 42.

Whats the DC on that? Im not sure what the bonus for Sanctum Spell is but it was free (DC +0 from what i could tell) and his library is certainly his sanctum. It was more of a flavor choice.

Augmented Lurk
2009-06-21, 02:11 AM
Regarding Genesis:

1.There's nothing in the actual spell description that specifically states that you can change the time flow of the demiplane (there's just nothing that states you can't, so some people assume you can).
2.The Genesis that everybody always talks about is from 3.0, the 3.5 version isn't even on the sorc/wiz spell list (and spells don't have separate divine/arcane versions).
3.There has never been a single actual game where Genesis was allowed to work like that (unless the DM was some kind of crazy person who wanted to run a completely broken, uber-powered game).

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-21, 03:36 AM
2.The Genesis that everybody always talks about is from 3.0, the 3.5 version isn't even on the sorc/wiz spell list (and spells don't have separate divine/arcane versions).

Oh really (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)? I guess since a wizard can't cast Genesis he also can't affect it's many planar traits (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/planes.htm) such as flowing time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#flowingTime).

sofawall
2009-06-21, 03:45 AM
I see nothing about planar traits at all in the spell description you linked.

Myrmex
2009-06-21, 03:58 AM
And yea...Genesis lets you adjust all planar traits of a plane. According to the DMG, temporal traits are just as much part of a plane as morphology.

That's stretching it quite a bit.

It takes a specific type of cheese to get that game on.

Same with epic spell DC mitigation. Binding 1 trillion Solars?
Yeah, right.

Tyrmatt
2009-06-21, 04:03 AM
Oh really (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)? I guess since a wizard can't cast Genesis he also can't affect it's many planar traits (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/planes.htm) such as flowing time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#flowingTime).

Note that the use of EPIC spells is prohibited. :)

Augmented Lurk
2009-06-21, 04:04 AM
The SRD version is from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, and is outdated. There is a 3.5 version of the spell which is not on the sorc/wiz list, and specifically states that you can't affect time traits. If something has been updated to 3.5, the 3.5 version takes precedence.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-21, 04:04 AM
Note that the use of EPIC spells is prohibited. :)

Note that Genesis is 9th level.

Augmented Lurk, where's the updated version?

Lamech
2009-06-21, 04:14 AM
The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) Can't visualize time flowing quicker. You can visualize actions happening slower in one area and faster in another, but flowing time is impossible. And pretty much everything with standard speeds would be out. Life, not allowed. Clocks fall under construction so not allowed. I suppose you could try picking say weather or gravity, but then you risk "The winds moving at 200,000 mph kill you instantly." or "You get crushed".

On the OP: Just use wish to teleport the person into a sphere of annihilation. That'll insto kill the target. And regardless of local conditions means that all the defense wizard does is in vain. Since you said arbitrarily high just spam an arbitrary number of wishes.

sofawall
2009-06-21, 04:20 AM
Wish doesn't always work.

Augmented Lurk
2009-06-21, 04:50 AM
I think it might be in one of the Underdark books.

hamishspence
2009-06-21, 04:52 AM
Is there a 3.5 version? Deities and Demigods had the divine version (made defunct by 3.5 Complete Divine's removal of it from the Creation domain list.)

If Epic Handbook's update to 3.5 (online at WoTC site) doesn't chnage it, does that mean EPH is the "Most recent" version since it was published last, and thus, supersedes Deities and Demigods version?

3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook version clearly states- no time changing. Does this apply to earlier versions?

(Also, the Demiplane Seed version for Manual of the Planes Planeshifter PRC states clearly "Normal time" lists a few traits that can be changed- time is not one of them.)

EDIT: Underdark has Node Genesis- not same thing- creates earth nodes.
If you were talking about Augemented Lurk- its not in Underdark.

Augmented Lurk
2009-06-21, 05:39 AM
Yeah, I think you're right. I thought there was a 3.5 update of Genesis, but I can't seem to find it on the internet. Having read through the SRD and ELH versions I think my first point still stands.

quote from SRD:
"You determine the environment in the demiplane when you first cast genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

Not anything you desire, but most. And there's nothing about time in there at all.

Eldariel
2009-06-21, 05:51 AM
SRD is the official source for 3.5 versions of Epic and Deity-stuff; that's the only place where they've been updated appropripately. That's among others the only place where 3.5 Genesis and Knock-Down exist.

As for fighting epic casters, you of course need ways to reach 'em with magic and chase 'em. Mostly though, properly built defenses are impenetrable with Magic; if Disjunction isn't around, arbitrarily high caster is invulnerable to everything but direct attacking. Once levels are high enough that nobody gives a damn about any given monsters, even Gates and such become useless for anything but masses of Aid Another, so it really comes down to rocket launcher tag of who manages to resolve a physical attack first (or dispel the other character's protections, totally boning him with now about 760 different spells that can all kill him).

This can involve a thousand Plane Shifts and Greater Teleports and temporal/spatial relocation effects, but eventually it comes down to attacks being the only thing able to deal damage at that point. And of course, there's a dozen means of being completely immortal on your own demiplane on such level, but I'm not going to bother about those.


Really, the defenses simply include basically every defensive spell in the books. As non-Epic Dispels are capped at +20, they're completely trivial in such a combat (although AMF and Disjunction still function). You'd be casting the usual blanket immunities in Death Ward, Life Ward, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, Greater Globe of Invulnerability, specific Greater Spell Immunity, Spell Resistance, all Energy Immunities, Greater Blinking, Greater Mirror Image, Displacement and so on; depending on exact sources being used, the list grows.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-21, 05:54 AM
From the Time entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#time) in the planes section:

"The rate of time’s passage can vary on different planes, though it remains constant within any particular plane. Time is always subjective for the viewer. The same subjectivity applies to various planes. Travelers may discover that they’ll pick up or lose time while moving among the planes, but from their point of view, time always passes naturally."

"Flowing Time
On some planes, time can flow faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, then return to the Material Plane to find that only six seconds have elapsed. Everything on the plane returned to is only a few seconds older. But for that traveler and the items, spells, and effects working on him, that year away was entirely real.

When designating how time works on planes with flowing time, put the Material Plane’s flow of time first, followed by the same flow in the other plane."

From Genesis:
"At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter.

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

You cast Genesis while on the ethereal plane, and from your perspective on the ethereal plane it grows at a rate of 1 foot radius per day. You could visualize that the rate of growth from within the plane would be 1 foot radius per 14,400 days, thereby causing the time flow within the plane to travel at a rate of 1 day within the plane per 1 round on the material or ethereal plane.

"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires."

Upon creation, the plane can reflect most any desire the caster visualizes. There is a list of example features that can be determined, but the features determined by the caster are not limited to that list. There is a list of prohibited features that the caster has no power to create, therefore most any desire you visualize can be created, except for what is found on the list of prohibited features. The time flow within the plane is not in that prohibited list, therefore it should be counted among those most any desires that can be determined by the caster. The 'such as' list is not the definitive list of the only things that can be determined by the caster, they are examples of what things can be determined. What features the caster determines are not limited to the examples given, they are only limited by what is explicitly prohibited.

hamishspence
2009-06-21, 06:22 AM
The Psionic version states flatly at the bottom- You can't change the time trait- it is as the Material Plane.

The MoTP Planeshifter version can apparently create "bucolic forests" and still can't affect the time trait.

For the psionic version to not allow it, but the Arcane version to do so, is a pretty big disparity.

Eldariel
2009-06-21, 06:33 AM
The Psionic version states flatly at the bottom- You can't change the time trait- it is as the Material Plane.

The MoTP Planeshifter version can apparently create "buconic forests" and still can't affect the time trait.

For the psionic version to not allow it, but the Arcane version to do so, is a pretty big disparity.

It falls to the overarching theme of "Arcane magic is broken, Psionics is fair" just fine though, so doesn't seem too unplausible.

Augmented Lurk
2009-06-21, 01:42 PM
What do you even need Genesis for? Wouldn't it be easier to simply Plane Shift to a pre-existing plane that has a ridiculously fast time flow? That way you avoid rules controversy and spare yourself the 5000xp.

Eldariel
2009-06-21, 01:44 PM
What do you even need Genesis for? Wouldn't it be easier to simply Plane Shift to a pre-existing plane that has a ridiculously fast time flow? That way you avoid rules controversy and spare yourself the 5000xp.

Pre-existing planes are rarely entirely under your control, and tend to have indigenous lifeforms, which makes them less usable as safehavens and such. Also, they don't tend to ban all forms of magic that could be used to scry on you or teleport or such, meaning e.g. deities can still affect you (which sucks). Genesis makes you pretty invulnerable to anything ever.