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Llama231
2009-06-19, 10:43 PM
How would you stat an explosion equivalent to a supernova in DnD? Also, how would it compare to the anti-osmium bomb? This is assuming that say two epic level wizards are fighting, and the take their battle space, another dimension or something. One of the managed to create a star somehow, and then cause it to go supernova in the others face and escapes. Supposing that nothing reduces the base damage, how much would the other poor wizard take if it somehow happened to be at the center of this blast?

If you want to get technical, what would it be for different types of supernovae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova#Current_models)?

Oh, and how about a hypernova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernova)?

yilduz
2009-06-19, 10:45 PM
How would you stat an explosion equivalent to a supernova in DnD? Also, how would it compare to the anti-osmium bomb? This is assuming that say two epic level wizards are fighting, and the take their battle space, another dimension or something. One of the managed to create a star somehow, and then cause it to go supernova in the others face and escapes. Supposing that nothing reduces the base damage, how much would the other poor wizard take if it somehow happened to be at the center of this blast?

If you want to get technical, what would it be for different types of supernovae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova#Current_models)?

If he was at the center of the blast, I imagine he'd be dead before the blast even happened.

Alteran
2009-06-19, 10:49 PM
...a supernova?

"Sun explodes, everybody dies." seems about right.

Really, there's no point in even statting that out. It would be enough damage to wipe out a solar system, probably many times over. I can't imagine a reflex save even being granted, since otherwise people with evasion could survive it.

It would basically be the ultimate "you lose" button. And when I say ultimate, I don't mean "best", I mean "last". Because it would kill everybody, with the probable exception of those on other planes.

aivanther
2009-06-19, 10:54 PM
Fortitude save or die instantly
If you make save: 10000000000d100

Area of Effect: 2d3 light years


There you go.

yilduz
2009-06-19, 10:55 PM
Area of Effect: 2d3 light years

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Haha, that's awesome.

Ograbme
2009-06-19, 10:55 PM
There's a 4E Warlock power that hurls your enemy into the heart of a star for...d10 damage/round.

Keld Denar
2009-06-19, 10:58 PM
Things like that are exactly the magnitude of plot. No more, no less. There is no point in saying that something is 436956943634565456365d6 damage, since you arn't actually role those dice to determine the actual damage. You are just gonna say that the world is reduced to elemental particles, and barring something like Planeshifting off the Prime or similar Deus Ex Machina, its time for everyone to grab a fresh character sheet and start over again in a world remarkably similar to the previous one, or entirely new, as dictated by the DM.

As far as what happens when REALLY epic wizards get uppity? There are precidents (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Anauroch) in popular fantasy. Most of that stuff is handled off-screen, though, since the rules don't really support that kind of play.

Altima
2009-06-19, 10:58 PM
Create a Gate to Entropy inside a star of sufficient mass?

Alteran
2009-06-19, 11:00 PM
There's a 4E Warlock power that hurls your enemy into the heart of a star for...d10 damage/round.

Which one is that? Also, remember, in 4e stars are not stars as we know them. They are malevolent, supernatural beings of significant (if usually stationary) power. It makes sense that throwing someone into one might not have the same effect as throwing someone into the churning centre of an ongoing nuclear fusion reaction.

See? I explained it (decently) within the context of the game, without even resorting to "it's magic".

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 11:02 PM
Fortitude save or die instantly
If you make save: 10000000000d100

Area of Effect: 2d3 light years.Mettle and Nat-20s. There will be a couple of annoyed Hexblades with Necklaces of Adaptation floating around for a long, long while.

erikun
2009-06-19, 11:10 PM
Use something I like to call "Lethal Damage" that just bypasses HP.

Given that it will vaporize any planet in the area, I would say the damage to be rather high. Several hundred billion+ damage sounds about right, applied directly to CON, bypassing any hardness or resistances. Being reduced to 0 CON disintegrates you into elementary particles.

If the player really wants to roll, then it's several hundred billion+ d10. Have them get back to you next session with the result.

Oh, and if you do happen to survive, remember that there's no breathable oxygen left in the galaxy.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 11:16 PM
Use something I like to call "Lethal Damage" that just bypasses HP.

Given that it will vaporize any planet in the area, I would say the damage to be rather high. Several hundred billion+ damage sounds about right, applied directly to CON, bypassing any hardness or resistances. Being reduced to 0 CON disintegrates you into elementary particles.

If the player really wants to roll, then it's several hundred billion+ d10. Have them get back to you next session with the result.

Oh, and if you do happen to survive, remember that there's no breathable oxygen left in the galaxy.My Necropolitan would like to speak with you.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-19, 11:18 PM
Isnt "Lethal Damage" what everyone already deals?

arguskos
2009-06-19, 11:18 PM
My Necropolitan would like to speak with you.
Your Necropolitan was just reduced to dust and particles, regardless of anything you have to say about it. THE STAR EXPLODED. :smalltongue: To quote a great film, "this sucka's dead."

Really, this is plot happening. If you MUST have stats, make an epic spell to create a star and trigger a thermonuclear reaction inside the aforementioned. There, you win forever. :smallcool:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 11:21 PM
Your Necropolitan was just reduced to dust and particles, regardless of anything you have to say about it. THE STAR EXPLODED. :smalltongue: To quote a great film, "this sucka's dead."Of course. I'm responding to those who do try to stat it with various ways to survive their attempt. It's the inverse of the old 'If it has stats, we can kill it'.

JeminiZero
2009-06-19, 11:31 PM
Actually I think it would be possible for a wizard to survive.

Without serious cheese you are probably looking at throwing up a sphere of force or prismatic which can theoretically absorb limitless physical damage, just before the nova. It would likely require celerity or some such to take a standard action as an immediate action. (Although if he could do that, it would be easier to simply plane shift). Or the wizard could have been duelling all this time from inside his telekinetic sphere.

Also, given that the exploding star likely does limited types of damage (e.g. mostly fire, maybe some bludgeoning), then something with the right immunities could probably survive it.

Malacode
2009-06-19, 11:39 PM
Statting up a supernova is, well... A bad idea. If it has stats, it can be beaten/survived. Going from the above...
You'd need immunities to Fire, death from massive damage and heat penalties (They're in sandstorm, I think), as well as the ability to survive without food, water, oxygen, or, well... Anything. Not too hard to do. A Necropolitan with the Fire subtype would be enough, I think.
That leaves you as the only surviving creature on the plane/t. Sounds like great fun. Personally, I'd say don't be a ****, and let the DM start another campaign.

Coidzor
2009-06-19, 11:39 PM
I'd probably just have it mechanically/fluff-wise that it unmakes the material world on that material plane, shunting immortals of sufficient panache to survive destruction onto other material worlds on different planes.

Or just plot incineration. The only things that could survive would be things that had the magical ability to flee the destruction before it washed over 'em or had a contingency set up for such an instance.

Or that were immune to vaccumn and fire. Those'd be really pissed off if they weren't able to magically flee afterwards.

What sort of effect would this have on the ethereal and shadow planes though, I wonder...

erikun
2009-06-19, 11:49 PM
My Necropolitan would like to speak with you.
You have no CON score, and as such, it treats you like every other object on the planet - instant obliteration. :smalltongue: You'll notice I didn't give anything a save.

And you're right; with enough magic, you could probably survive. JeminiZero makes a good point that a Prismatic Sphere would (probably) prevent instant death, but even then, the aftermath wouldn't be very hospitable.

@Olo Demonsbane: Point. I guess I use the term more like "this is clearly fatal, your HP isn't going to help, it is directly damaging to your body." Hence the CON damage instead.

Llama231
2009-06-19, 11:50 PM
How about: Is there any way for a character to survive being blasted point blank by a supernova without avoiding it?
I assume that an epic level wizard could do it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 11:57 PM
How about: Is there any way for a character to survive being blasted point blank by a supernova without avoiding it?
I assume that an epic level wizard could do it.Depends on how the Supernova is stated. :smalltongue:

Really, reading up on it, there seems to be NI sonic, bludgeoning, and fire damage, as well as Radiation(however you want to stat that), and probably other components I'm forgetting. The problem is any Wizard who could suvive it wouldn't. Contingency:Celerity(trigger: I'm about to die) gives him enough time to do whatever he wants. Most likely would be Planeshift. Alternatively, Prismatic Sphere/Wall or Wall of Force. A well-protected Clone would ride it out, too, as would a Lich who's not an idiot about his Phylactary. He's going to avoid it if at all possible. Actually surviving is harder. There are spells that could let you do it, but most are on other lists(Wu-Jen and Psion), neither of which gets Contingency.

Lycanthromancer
2009-06-20, 12:03 AM
Energy immunity.

Clone.

Astral projection.

Timeless body. (For psions and cerebremancers.)

A tower shield. ^_^

There are lots of ways (even in core) of surviving Armageddon without being even slightly inconvenienced. Heck, I could do it by 6th level.

Randel
2009-06-20, 12:55 AM
Well, one thing is that even if you do survive the initial explosion... the planet you're standing on doesn't. So you're now a lone survivor in the middle of a... several million mile wide ball of super-fire with no food, water, air, shelter, distinguishable features and the gravity is about 1,000,000 times higher than normal.

Joe: Well, on the bright side my armor of fire immunity completely shielded me from the 1,340,257,256,235d100 points of fire damage... but on the downside my friends, family, possessions, and country just exploded into vapor. And now that the air has been replaced with superheated plasma and my hair suddenly ways a billion tons and I'm sinking into an ocean of even more fire... I don't know if I should put on this amulet of adaptation and try to survive this or just let myself disintegrate.

Alleine
2009-06-20, 01:30 AM
You could actually create a supernova before epic pretty easily. The first thing that comes to mind is planeshift to the ethereal and gate tot eh middle of a star. If memory of TV shows *coughstargatecough* serves me well, then reducing the mass of the star triggers a nova.

As for surviving, Troll with the fire subtype and sing of sustenance + amulet of adaptation. Assuming no ability damage is done.

Zeful
2009-06-20, 01:32 AM
A tower shield. ^_^

Ah, the tower shield. Total cover grants many things, like concealment. Which blocks line of sight for you and your equipment, which includes the shield.

As for supernova stats:
Range: 2d3 Light year sphere.
Save: Will negates (see text)
Effect: All objects and creatures within range of the Supernova are destroyed as if reduced to 0hp by the desintgrate spell. If you are aware of your impending doom, you must make a will save to avoid evacuating your bowels.

hewhosaysfish
2009-06-20, 07:32 AM
I'm reminded of the Lava Rules (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=55269) supplement. Comprehensive rules for using lava, magma and superheated rock - easily adaptable to any game system!

"If you fall in lava, you die. No save"

And before you ask, yes there is a siderbar:
"If you fall in lava and you are imune to fire, you don't die"



It seems to be that this is the sort of structure you could use to frame your hypothetical supernova rules.

Llama231
2009-06-20, 08:30 AM
Some of these ideas are good, but by taking the hit without avoiding it means no dodging, no running away, no sticking something else in front of it, no making a clone do it, and a lich would still be "destroyed" despite coming back later.

dspeyer
2009-06-20, 08:54 AM
Without serious cheese you are probably looking at throwing up a sphere of force or prismatic which can theoretically absorb limitless physical damage, just before the nova.

Sphere of force is transparent, so it lets through gamma rays, so you're still vaporized.

If prismatic sphere can absorb infinite damage and light, there might be something left of you. It's not clear what happens to force applied to a prismatic sphere, but conservation of momentum suggests the sphere is moved. If so, the initial excelleration when the pressure wave hits should flatten you against the inside of the sphere. Some of your molecules might remain intact, though, so you're better off than before.

AstralFire
2009-06-20, 09:01 AM
The problem with applying physics to spells like that is that D&D spells are explicitly stated to make no sense at a physics level. See: Fireball.

pingcode20
2009-06-20, 09:22 AM
Describe the event dramatically for two minutes, then reduce all characters' health by 15/16ths, rounding down. Confuses, Slows, and Silences as the respective spells at CL 20, save DC 40. :smallbiggrin:

---

As for a more useful one, here's an idea:

Supernova

Range: 1 Solar System
Save: Varies, DC 40

The unbinding of a star is an event of catastrophic proportions, and generally results in the total annihilation of everything unfortunate enough to be caught in the local area when it occurs. Typically, the discovery of an impending supernova can occur up to 2d8 days before impact with a DC 30 Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(The Planes), or Wisdom check. A DC 40 check reveals the time of impact on the world within 1d4 hours. During this time, most outsiders and beings of power rapidly vacate the world in question, possibly looting it for treasures before making their escape.

At the time of impact, the world is first hit by the expanding shockwave, dealing 40d10 Force Damage (Reflex for half) to everything in the system from the immense power of the star's unbinding. In addition, everything caught in the shockwave is immediately subject to the effects of a Mordenkainen's Disjunction spell, at Caster Level 20.

Afterwards, everything still within the system after impact take an additional 40d10 Fire damage (Reflex for half) plus per round, and is subject to a CL 20 Dispel Magic effect every round.

---

Well, hopefully that's what you're looking for. Replicating it with a spell would replace the DCs and CLs with the casting Wizard's, but honestly it's absolutely academic. Just renders a huge area totally uninhabitable, and while someone immensely tough could survive the shockwave, they'd have to get the hell out very fast indeed.

All totally theoretical, of course. As everyone else has said, in all honesty it's just BOOM, everybody's dead.

But, you know, supposing you wanted to do a Planescape adventure that involves diving into a world where the sun's gone boom to plunder whatever artifacts and magic items that can be recovered from the debris, there you go.

(Okay, I was bored.)

Dagren
2009-06-20, 09:24 AM
I'm thinking an explosion of that magnitude would probably deal force damage, you aren't going to be burnt as much as simply blasted apart by the shockwave.

EDIT: Looks like I'm not the only one either.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-20, 09:25 AM
Average damage of 40d10 is a pathetic 220, which is 110 after the save for half. Much too weak even for a "cinematically survivable" supernova.

pingcode20
2009-06-20, 09:30 AM
It's small-ish. I figured that once you got the 20th level characters around you're so far beyond the norm that yeah, you're likely to survive the shockwave at least a little.

That being said, it does wipe out most magic in the same stroke, and unless you're inherently immune to fire you're toast anyway.

Lewin Eagle
2009-06-20, 09:32 AM
Hmm I think another important question is:Is a supernova a magic attack?
Otherwise (atleast if I understand the rules right I don't play d&d) incorporeal should be immune, resulting in a huge swarm of ghosts floating around.

Eldan
2009-06-20, 09:34 AM
The problem also being that people with evasion and/or mettle can survive it. I would also add some bludgeoning damage from the shockwave, and generally about increase damage by 500%.

Comet
2009-06-20, 09:37 AM
Hmm I think another important question is:Is a supernova a magic attack?
Otherwise (atleast if I understand the rules right I don't play d&d) incorporeal should be immune, resulting in a huge swarm of ghosts floating around.
Which actually sounds quite cool. I mean, if the world ends (from the point of view of the average D&D material plane campaign setting) having the ghosts of the whole world wander the post-supernova void sounds like just the thing I would find interesting.

AstralFire
2009-06-20, 09:48 AM
Agreed. I'm totally stealing that for something later.

AslanCross
2009-06-20, 05:26 PM
Hmm I think another important question is:Is a supernova a magic attack?
Otherwise (atleast if I understand the rules right I don't play d&d) incorporeal should be immune, resulting in a huge swarm of ghosts floating around.

Force damage deals full damage to incorporeal creatures too.

pingcode20
2009-06-20, 07:44 PM
Yeah, I'm aware that anything with evasion can theoretically survive.

But at 220 Average and a DC 40, combined with Disjunction having a high probability of eliminating all magically-based defences, we're talking CR 20s having a very real chance of being killed outright by the shockwave.

Any evaders are only going to evade with a 1/20 probability, and even then they've got to make DC 40 saves every round thereafter to avoid what amounts to immediate death.

As for ghosts: The force effect will kill almost all of them outright, save for the high level ones and the ones with evasion. Of course, all of them are more-or-less guaranteed to reform, with fully one-quarter of commoner ghosts reforming, and more powerful ghosts all but guaranteed to be unable to leave behind the world.

Not an enviable fate. So, yeah, ghost inferno.

Coidzor
2009-06-20, 08:44 PM
^: After the first few rounds of fire damage, there's not going to be any air for living creatures to breathe, so that's another thing...

Hmm, I wonder how long it would take for the few bits and artifacts of value to be looted by efreeti and such before being left for all of the ghosts to swirl in the morass for the rest of their undeath.

TheDarkOne
2009-06-20, 09:21 PM
The first thing to hit the world will not be the shock wave of the supernova.(that is all the actual matter that makes up the star) It will be a lot of high energy EM radiation. Most living things on the side of the planet facing the sun will be dead a hour or two before the shock wave hits, and I wouldn't hold my breath for life on the other side of the planet. The radiation released by a supernova could actually have noticeable effects on other close by systems tens of light years away(obviously not immediately, in tens of years, when the radiation gets there).


Once the shock wave arrives, the world won't be there for too much longer. Actually, this is probably good way of figuring out if you've got the supernova doing enough damage. It should be able to demolish the planet in short order.

Random832
2009-06-20, 09:45 PM
The problem also being that people with evasion and/or mettle can survive it.

I'd rule no evasion, and for that matter no reflex save. Is there seriously not a core rule for "AoE is just too big for this to apply" for those?

Random832
2009-06-20, 09:48 PM
Once the shock wave arrives, the world won't be there for too much longer. Actually, this is probably good way of figuring out if you've got the supernova doing enough damage. It should be able to demolish the planet in short order.

What are the stats for a planet, though? That's another one of those things where it's probably a bad idea to stat it out.

AslanCross
2009-06-20, 09:52 PM
What are the stats for a planet, though? That's another one of those things where it's probably a bad idea to stat it out.

It would be theoretically simple to stat out a planet if it were a solid, homogeneous rock. Of course, they almost never are.

arguskos
2009-06-20, 09:54 PM
I'd rule no evasion, and for that matter no reflex save. Is there seriously not a core rule for "AoE is just too big for this to apply" for those?
Nope, cause D&D isn't meant to apply to these sorts of things.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 10:02 PM
I'd rule no evasion, and for that matter no reflex save. Is there seriously not a core rule for "AoE is just too big for this to apply" for those?
Er, yes, it's called "don't tack on a reflex save". Reflex literally means "you jump out of the way of the attack".

scsimodem
2009-06-20, 10:18 PM
Wow, so much here.

First off: Spells make no physics sense unless you account for an alternate source of energy (in this case, magic) and a medium through which it may be carried (again, magic). This allows for all sorts of things.

Second off: Nobody seems to be talking about how to make one, just survive it. To make one, you will need the following: Wall of force, a spell I can't remember out of a 3e Faerun splat book (possibly Magic of Faerun), a custom spell which conjures deuterium (permanently, as in instantaneous duration, if you want the supernova to be so and undispellable), a little spare xp, optional: scry, contingency, time stop, dispel magic, a quiet place to work where nobody knows where you are or what you're doing.

Step one: Cast one version of said FR spell. It creates a permanent fixture which absorbs spell levels, then casts the stored spell using the absorbed levels. e.g. If it stores 'fireball,' then casting magic missile at it absorbs 1 spell level. If you then hit it with flaming sphere, it's at 3 spell levels and throws a fireball. Hit it with a meteor swarm and it throws 3 fireballs. Store the deuterium conjuring spell in this casting. This spell has an xp cost.

Step two: Cast several versions of the same spell, using magic missile. Set the missiles to split and go to several targets and make sure the spell is at 9th level (5 missiles). 3rd level is acceptable, but will result in a slower reaction and higher likelihood of initial failure (which we'd like to minimize). Multiple projectiles is required, though.

Step three: Cast a delayed blast fireball, delayed as much as possible in case of problems.

Step four: Encase the apparatus in a wall of force, including the point of origin for the delayed blast fireball.

Optional: Set a contingency to dispel the entire mess once it has reached the necessary mass of deuterium to create a self-sustaining fusion reaction of a size of your liking (at this point, you may need a time stop).

Step five: Plane shift away.

Optional: Scry on the spot to ensure success. Wear sunglasses.

The principle: Deuterium is the prime ingredient in any fusion reaction. It's heavy hydrogen (H-2, I believe). The spells storing magic missile will cast its five missiles, thus causing five of its fellows to absorb 1 spell level each (of course, this will be shot down by any DM wanting to find an excuse to quash it, but the principle is there, just the same), starting a chain reaction. Some of the missiles will reach the one that spawns deuterium, causing a large supply of deuterium to build up within the sphere of force. The sphere of force will not allow the deuterium to escape, thus allowing enough pressure and heat build up to initiate the fusion reaction, and rather quickly, really. The contingency will ensure that only the requisite amount of deuterium build up to create a star of your choice in size, typically within a single round.

If you let it run, then within 3 rounds, maximum, enough mass will have built up within the sphere of force to cause it to collapse in on itself, forming a black hole. If left to run indefinitely, this black hole will eventually consume all matter in the universe...and continue to grow...while you reside safely on another plane of existence.

Since the sphere of force allows the passage of electromagnetic radiation (you can see through it), and since gravity still applies within, we can safely assume that the radiation and gravitational forces will be sufficient to prevent anybody from getting close enough to stop it, especially since the planet would be consumed in seconds.

Of course, if a black hole is your goal, nothing so exotic as deuterium is needed, as normal water or air will do.

Congratulations. You have just ended an entire world.

Ehra
2009-06-20, 10:20 PM
Yeah. Saying you can evade a supernova is like saying you can survive a fall from any height by evading the ground.

pingcode20
2009-06-20, 10:24 PM
Eh, like I said, in all honesty trying to deal with this absolutely realistically involves simply invoking Chunky Salsa and declaring everybody dead.

As for Reflex Saves - well, I figure if reflex saves can count against huge fireballs, reflex saves can count for the sun exploding. It's like a fireball. Only much, much deadlier. On the other hand, yeah, might be a little silly to allow saves versus the superheated plasma in the aftermath.

That, and it's a DC 40 Save, combined with the obliteration of magic - theoretically, a 20th level Reflex-Strong class can evade on about an 18-20. The 1/20 guys with evasion who happen to survive thanks to ninja powers to dodge anything don't survive the subsequent incineration as the superheated matter arrives, mercy save or no.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 10:28 PM
Rogue/Monk/Bard/Swordsage/etc (stacking good REF classes) can get +39 Reflex save, and thus laugh at your ridiculous DC, at the expense of not really being able to do anything else since they never advance in more than one level in any class except the one that grants Evasion.

pingcode20
2009-06-20, 10:38 PM
Well, they want to stack classes until they hit Reflex +39, bully for them. Outlier case, feh, not worth stacking the tables to kill them off at the expense 99% of everything else.

Although I admit allowing a save for Plasma Immersion came about mostly as a result of writing the whole mess at 12 in the morning.

I suppose the mercy round is more than enough for the hypothetical party to get the hell out of dodge before being cooked to perfection.

thorgrim29
2009-06-20, 11:49 PM
Yeah. Saying you can evade a supernova is like saying you can survive a fall from any height by evading the ground.

Of course you can, have you never read your Douglas Adams?

Llama231
2009-06-21, 11:11 AM
Yeah. Saying you can evade a supernova is like saying you can survive a fall from any height by evading the ground.
This actually reminds me of a funny 4e story...
Anyway, I can has sig?


Of course you can, have you never read your Douglas Adams?
???

TengYt
2009-06-21, 11:44 AM
Don't allow any kind of Save, including Evasion. I mean come on, how the hell do you DODGE a Supernova?! Even if you're an Epic Rogue, it's not as simple as just stop, drop, and rolling away.

Lamech
2009-06-21, 12:05 PM
Don't allow any kind of Save, including Evasion. I mean come on, how the hell do you DODGE a Supernova?! Even if you're an Epic Rogue, it's not as simple as just stop, drop, and rolling away.Evasion lets you dodge the air You stay in your little square and avoid being roasted by a fireball. It makes no freaking sense. Plus its an [ex] so it can break the laws of physics. I would say you can totally evade it. And quickly die in the aftermath, but lets ignore that little detail.

Prismatic sphere works. As does IotSFV, the violet layer stops everything. Voidmind War Troll could survive the damage. In fact a lot of creatures with regen could survive the damage. A bunch of incorporeals would be like wtf mate? Anyone with timeless body would be fine for a bit. A warforged made out of artifacts could tank it as well. I think quite a few people would be floating around in the aftermath.

olelia
2009-06-21, 06:36 PM
I'd rule no evasion, and for that matter no reflex save. Is there seriously not a core rule for "AoE is just too big for this to apply" for those?

Actually...there is...I swear it was somehwere else but the reference I found was under the trap section


Never Miss

When the entire dungeon wall moves to crush you, your quick reflexes wonít help, since the wall canít possibly miss. A trap with this feature has neither an attack bonus nor a saving throw to avoid, but it does have an onset delay (see below). Most traps involving liquid or gas are of the never miss variety.


Its under traps in the srd.

Stormthorn
2009-06-21, 06:37 PM
Actually I think it would be possible for a wizard to survive.

Without serious cheese you are probably looking at throwing up a sphere of force or prismatic which can theoretically absorb limitless physical damage, just before the nova. It would likely require celerity or some such to take a standard action as an immediate action. (Although if he could do that, it would be easier to simply plane shift). Or the wizard could have been duelling all this time from inside his telekinetic sphere.

Also, given that the exploding star likely does limited types of damage (e.g. mostly fire, maybe some bludgeoning), then something with the right immunities could probably survive it.

And radiation.
And it might be powerful enough to leak into the etheral plane, making it a force effect. I would do:

10d100 Fire (also, Epic), 50% of which ignored fire immunity
10d100 force (also, epic Epic)
All objects smaller than exploding star (including planets) make a DC 5200 Fort save or be turned to dust
5d100 Nonleathal Bludgeoning
10d10+10 Con damage (save for half) from massive X-ray dosage
Permentant blinding

Thats an average of 1260-ish damage and 65 points of Con damage.

The after-effects would be more radiation, more fire, electric (from high energy particle clouds left behind), and Insanity at what you just witnessed.


Yeah. Saying you can evade a supernova is like saying you can survive a fall from any height by evading the ground.

Thats how people in Hitchhiker series fly. Also, monks can do that.


we're talking CR 20s having a very real chance of being killed outright by the shockwave.

A CR 20 should be dead. Look, if an Animated Planet could survive it then its too weak.

pingcode20
2009-06-21, 10:05 PM
See, at the point where you call CR 20s dead-no-save, you're just doing Chunky Salsa. It's a completely useless thing to stat out, because you're just throwing big numbers around.

Same thing happens if you set it up to kill outliers. Pegging the Average to kill everything short of an Epic Dragon is just playing Rocks-Fall-Everyone-Dies.

Animated Planet is similar - centring the average to annihilate a huge ball of rock larger than DnD was ever made to model is just being silly - yes, we know that IRL nothing can survive a supernova, but the point that modelling it realistically would involve saying 'Sun goes boom, everyone dies'

---

If the Gamma Burst is represented as a combination of Force Damage and a Disjunction effect, no amount of magic can really save you. (Well, that's what I set it up as for my writeup, at any rate)

Coidzor
2009-06-21, 10:11 PM
If the Gamma Burst is represented as a combination of Force Damage and a Disjunction effect, no amount of magic can really save you. (Well, that's what I set it up as for my writeup, at any rate)

I think this bit is basically to indulge fantasies of getting to see the reactions of characters powerful enough that they could've escaped if their magic items had survived or they had just had the right spells prepared that day

pingcode20
2009-06-21, 10:32 PM
A little.

Er, no, not at all. It just seemed to me that the rending of magic wouldn't at all be out of line for something blowing up big.

Besides which, it's plenty survivable. Managing to clear the reflex save or lucking out on the damage roll gives a round (maybe two) to escape!

Hee. So much sweeter when there's a small chance to survive.

Ahem. Ideally, said powerful characters should have caught on a couple of weeks ago (whether from passing the skill check or noticing that all the outsiders are getting out of there), and taken their leave already.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-21, 10:57 PM
Ahem. Ideally, said powerful characters should have caught on a couple of weeks ago (whether from passing the skill check or noticing that all the outsiders are getting out of there), and taken their leave already.Not really. You give powerful characters warning, one of them will figure out how to stop it.

DM: Your divinations reveal that the largest danger you will face in the next month is the destruction of the sun in a massive thermonuclear explosion.
lvl 21 Wizard: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
Wizard: ...
Wizard: ...
Wizard: Casters, huddle up
*mumble mumble*
Wizard: I craft an epic spell. It grants me +300 to my Know:Thermonuclear Physics checks for 2 weeks. I mitigate it by inflicting massive damage on the party, reducing all of them, including myself, to 1 HP. Takes 0 time and 0 XP. How do I fix the sun?
DM: ...
DM: :smallfurious:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-21, 11:07 PM
You critically succeed on your Knowledge check and learn not only about this sun's exploding, but the ways to stop every other star from exploding. But there is no way to stop this sun from exploding.

Omniscience does not equate to omnipotence. You know everything, including the fact that the true omnipotents are about to kill you in exactly (pi-sqrt 2)^e seconds, and that there is no way to avert this.

pingcode20
2009-06-21, 11:18 PM
Not really. You give powerful characters warning, one of them will figure out how to stop it.

DM: Your divinations reveal that the largest danger you will face in the next month is the destruction of the sun in a massive thermonuclear explosion.lvl 21 Wizard:
Wizard: ...
Wizard: ...
Wizard: Casters, huddle up
*mumble mumble*
Wizard: I craft an epic spell. It grants me +300 to my Know:Thermonuclear Physics checks for 2 weeks. I mitigate it by inflicting massive damage on the party, reducing all of them, including myself, to 1 HP. Takes 0 time and 0 XP. How do I fix the sun?

OOOOUEEEENDAAAAN!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-21, 11:21 PM
You critically succeed on your Knowledge check and learn not only about this sun's exploding, but the ways to stop every other star from exploding. But there is no way to stop this sun from exploding.Epic magic can do anything. Besides that, there are certain factors that cause a star to go Supernova. Alter those factors, and you can change the nova. The laws of physics do not stop working simply because they are an impediment to the plot.
Omniscience does not equate to omnipotence. You know everything, including the fact that the true omnipotents are about to kill you in exactly (pi-sqrt 2)^e seconds, and that there is no way to avert this.But you do know the reason they're about to kill you, and what it would take to make them not want to do so. Omniscience is omnipotence, given pretty much any time and a correctly-applied butterfly.

SSGoW
2009-06-21, 11:33 PM
lol this reminds me of the time i played a cleric that went.. unstable when he saw his god (corellon) work with gruumish in destroying a town.... i telelported myself and the fighter (my "half brother") to the center of the sun (hey in my defense i did ask if the sun was considered in the material plane before i did it) the dmg was the DM going O_O "WHAT"

haha

Stormthorn
2009-06-22, 12:55 AM
Not really. You give powerful characters warning, one of them will figure out how to stop it.

DM: Your divinations reveal that the largest danger you will face in the next month is the destruction of the sun in a massive thermonuclear explosion.
lvl 21 Wizard: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
Wizard: ...
Wizard: ...
Wizard: Casters, huddle up
*mumble mumble*
Wizard: I craft an epic spell. It grants me +300 to my Know:Thermonuclear Physics checks for 2 weeks. I mitigate it by inflicting massive damage on the party, reducing all of them, including myself, to 1 HP. Takes 0 time and 0 XP. How do I fix the sun?
DM: ...
DM: :smallfurious:

What seed would you use for that spell?

Fortify can grant bonuses to ability scores and "statistics" it (the target) does not posess. Thermonuclear Physics is not a knowledge skill so it would probably qualify.

So thats +300 bonus and a duration increase of 100% applied 16 or so times to add 13 more days on. And make it quickened.
Now, you cant mitigate to other party members but you can do damage to yourself. At level 21 the max you can do is 42d6 to yourself. And you dont want to burn any XP in the casting?

Ok then...the spell takes 11,169,000 gold pieces to research and you will finish reasearching it in about 220 days. You must burn 446,760 experiance learning it. It has a Spellcraft DC of 1241.

This is assuming your DM is neither very mean (and vetos the spell) or very nice (and lets you add all sorts of cutsy ad-hoc factors) but is rather middle-of-the-road about it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-22, 01:08 AM
What seed would you use for that spell?Fortify. At least, that was the thought, except it apparently applies to Stats, saves, SR, and nat armor, but not skill checks. The DC to make your Int 600 higher is only 1217, though, so it's not hard. If it applied to skill checks, you'd only need a DC of 617, so that's fine.

Edit: For a supernova, I'd burn the XP. Also, RAW, you don't need the increased duration, since it starts long enough for you to make a Knowlege check.

imp_fireball
2009-06-22, 01:11 AM
Also, given that the exploding star likely does limited types of damage (e.g. mostly fire, maybe some bludgeoning), then something with the right immunities could probably survive it.

Yah, it's a star which is essentially something so hot that most of it is just superheated plasma... so I'd probably rule fire/electrical/acid/bludgeoning/whatever inconcievably intense rays of sunlight/radiation do (poison/disease/fire?).

Also, acid because it bypasses material hardness (if the incredible damage didn't already do that).


For a supernova, I'd burn the XP.

And here I thought hellball cost craploads of xp for what it did (90 average damage in radius, pffft...).

Coidzor
2009-06-22, 01:17 AM
lol this reminds me of the time i played a cleric that went.. unstable when he saw his god (corellon) work with gruumish in destroying a town.... i telelported myself and the fighter (my "half brother") to the center of the sun (hey in my defense i did ask if the sun was considered in the material plane before i did it) the dmg was the DM going O_O "WHAT"

haha

Aww, and you had the perfect opportunity to go BSoD and go UR-PRIEST!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-22, 01:26 AM
Aww, and you had the perfect opportunity to go BSoD and go UR-PRIEST!Ur-Priest is qustionable in usefulness for a Cleric. You start out spell levels behind and take a while to catch up. The key, more than the faster progression*, is that you have 5 levels of non-casting to play around with. Cleric loses that. Plus, no one would have the pre-requisites for that unless they already intended to take it.

*not really a faster progression. You actually end up sucking for just as long as you end up awesome. A poor situation to play through, but great if starting level 10 or so:
lvl 6 : Cleric 3, UP 1
lvl 7 : Cleric 4, UP 2
lvl 8 : Cleric 4, UP 3
lvl 9 : Cleric 5, UP 4
lvl 10: Cleric 5, UP 5
lvl 11: Cleric 6, UP 6
lvl 12: Cleric 6, UP 7
lvl 13: Cleric 7, UP 8
lvl 14: Cleric 7, UP 9
lvl 15: Cleric 8, UP 9
lvl 16: Cleric 8, UP 9
lvl 17: Cleric 9, UP 9
lvl 18: Cleric 9, UP 9
lvl 19: Cleric 9, UP 9
lvl 20: Cleric 9, UP 9

imp_fireball
2009-06-22, 01:33 AM
You critically succeed on your Knowledge check and learn not only about this sun's exploding, but the ways to stop every other star from exploding. But there is no way to stop this sun from exploding.

Omniscience does not equate to omnipotence. You know everything, including the fact that the true omnipotents are about to kill you in exactly (pi-sqrt 2)^e seconds, and that there is no way to avert this.

If only you had more ranks in Knowledge: Planes/Cosmology. Then you'd realize that preventing the destruction of any and all stars this very moment would upset universal balance on an intergalactic scale!

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 04:08 AM
Also, monks can do that.

The Monk's Slow Fall ability requires a nearby handhold. If you drop a monk from 35,000 feet onto a perfectly flat plain, he's going to crater.

ResplendentFire
2009-06-22, 04:23 AM
???

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...or, I think Life, the Universe, and Everything:

Flying is the skill, or rather the knack, of learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. To do this properly, you need something to distract and startle you right before you hit the ground, so you forget entirely about the fact that you're falling to your death.

This is not an exact quote.

Lewin Eagle
2009-06-22, 05:25 AM
Some of the damage numbers here are a bit small. It destroys planets. Take the earth. I don't know how to calculate the hitpoints of a sphere, but let's say the radius is the thickness. Stone has 8 hp per inch but it's not a pure stoneball, let's just take 1hp/inch and no hardness. The earth has a radius of 6378 kilometers google says that are 251 102 362 inch. A few thousand points of damage won't damage a planet.

pingcode20
2009-06-22, 05:43 AM
Some of the damage numbers here are a bit small. It destroys planets. Take the earth. I don't know how to calculate the hitpoints of a sphere, but let's say the radius is the thickness. Stone has 8 hp per inch but it's not a pure stoneball, let's just take 1hp/inch and no hardness. The earth has a radius of 6378 kilometers google says that are 251 102 362 inch. A few thousand points of damage won't damage a planet.

Oh! I know!

The supernova also shatters all heavenly bodies in its area of effect as a series of targeted Shatter spells of CL 4.19*10^26, treating each heavenly body as a single solid object.

Lewin Eagle
2009-06-22, 06:22 AM
Yeah you could do that, but I would say either say it destroys everything or give it precise (and gigantic) damage numbers not a mix.


Btw calculating with thickness is incredible generous since volume grows much faster. Volume= (4 / 3) * pi * ((6378 km)^3) = 1,08678129 ◊ 10^21 m3= 3.83793191 ◊ 10^22 feet^3. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Epic_Obstacles 10*10*5 stone block = 900 hp.....

Stormthorn
2009-06-22, 09:31 AM
The Monk's Slow Fall ability requires a nearby handhold. If you drop a monk from 35,000 feet onto a perfectly flat plain, he's going to crater.

I was jokin about that, actually.


Also, acid because it bypasses material hardness (if the incredible damage didn't already do that).

Just rule that damage form the sun is from an epic, divine, adamantium source.

Talic
2009-06-22, 09:46 AM
There are ways to stat out a Supernova so that it doesn't allow a Save.

First: Consider it a Trap.
Trigger: Sun goes Supernova.
Give it the Never Miss feature. It gains an onset delay. This is fine.

Make the onset delay 60 rounds. It takes this long for light to reach from the sun to the earth IRL, so it seems right.

Every square in area of effect (the planet) takes 800 damage. Objects take triple damage from this. This damage is untyped, and affects the prime material plane only; further, it bypasses all forms of hardness, resistance, and damage reduction. Line of Effect does apply; however, whether or not a square blocks LOE is determined after applying damage to that square.

Note: Objects take 2400 damage. A block of adamant has 2400 hp. So whatever it is, it needs to have more HP per inch than adamantium to stop the blast. Possibly a Colossal adamant Tower shield +x, as the enhancement would grant it additional HP.

Talic
2009-06-22, 09:51 AM
Not really. You give powerful characters warning, one of them will figure out how to stop it.

DM: Your divinations reveal that the largest danger you will face in the next month is the destruction of the sun in a massive thermonuclear explosion.
lvl 21 Wizard: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
Wizard: ...
Wizard: ...
Wizard: Casters, huddle up
*mumble mumble*
Wizard: I craft an epic spell. It grants me +300 to my Know:Thermonuclear Physics checks for 2 weeks. I mitigate it by inflicting massive damage on the party, reducing all of them, including myself, to 1 HP. Takes 0 time and 0 XP. How do I fix the sun?
DM: ...
DM: :smallfurious:

DM: I'm sorry, as you have no ranks in Knowledge (Thermonuclear Physics), and when using knowledge skills untrained, the maximum DC for information you can discover about thermonuclear Physics is 10. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-22, 01:04 PM
DM: I'm sorry, as you have no ranks in Knowledge (Thermonuclear Physics), and when using knowledge skills untrained, the maximum DC for information you can discover about thermonuclear Physics is 10. :smallbiggrin:What wizard doesn't put ranks in that? It's the core of the anti-Osmium bomb.

Zeful
2009-06-22, 01:16 PM
What wizard doesn't put ranks in that? It's the core of the anti-Osmium bomb.

Because it's actually not a skill at all.

Llama231
2009-06-22, 09:36 PM
But wouldn't it be because it a a knowledge skill?

Zeful
2009-06-22, 09:54 PM
Nope, it's a DM adjudicated skill, outlined right in the Knowledge skill itself. You can only put skill points that exist, by default Knowledge (Thermonuclear Physics) isn't a skill. Therefore only if the DM says the skill exists, does it.

penbed400
2009-06-22, 11:27 PM
If the player really wants to roll, then it's several hundred billion+ d10. Have them get back to you next session with the result.


Not really necessary, grab a TI-83 Plus Graphing Calculator (more processing power recommended but this is what I had on hand) and punch in the following code:

: 0→A
: 0→B
: 0→C
: 0→D
: 0→E
: Input "NUMBER OF DICE", A
: Input "NUMBER OF SIDES", B
: Lbl 0
: If E=A: Then
: Goto 1
: End
: randInt (1,B)→C
: D+C→D
: Disp E
: E+1→E
: Goto 0
: Lbl 1
: Disp D
: Stop

The Disp E command is unnecessary unless you want to watch the progress because it will count all the way up to whatever number of sides you put in and then display the dice roll. But basically the program acts as a portable auto-dice machine. It generates a random number between 1 and whatever number you set for the sides, then adds it to a general pool in order to create a grand total. I know that I'm not the cleanest programmer out there so if you want to complain about that then fine but the point is it works. No more need to wait until next gaming session for abnormal large rolls. You just have to wait a minute for every 409 times you roll the dice...sooo for 300,000,000,000 rolls thats only 1395 and a half years of processing....yikes! Well I guess that makes my point moot until you get a faster proccessor than a TI-83 which isnt that hard.

Talic
2009-06-22, 11:56 PM
What wizard doesn't put ranks in that? It's the core of the anti-Osmium bomb.

Because it's trained only. Which implies training is required.

Either that, or:

The same wizard must learn and cast 120 different epic spells, each designed to subtly alter the magnetics of the solar system in such a way as to restabilize the magical containment. Unfortunately, as each mage's pull is subtly different, other mages may not help you in this task.

Oh, and a side effect of the sun's destabilization? Spells dealing with planar travel/planar effects and time alteration fail automatically.

Tomorrow? The effect will include all spells.

Day after that? Add epic spells into the list that fails.

imp_fireball
2009-06-23, 12:34 AM
I was jokin about that, actually.



Just rule that damage form the sun is from an epic, divine, adamantium source.

But acid works great in sci-fi settings where there's material that's harder than adamantium - being that adamantium's only twice as hard as steel.

quick_comment
2009-06-24, 11:10 PM
As a star goes supernova several things happen.

1) The fusion inside the star becomes insufficient to stop the gravitational collapse. In about 100 microseconds, the core of the star collapses.

2) This leaves the outer layers unsupported. They begin to collapse inwards, but more slowly.

3) The inner layer's collapse is halted by degeneracy pressure, and it rebounds.

4) The outer layer accretes onto the inner layer. At this point there is a layer of material so dense that neutrinos cannot penetrate it.

5) The neutrinos heat up the core so hot that a process called photodisintegration begins. Iron is disintegrated into heavier elements, causing a massive loss of energy.

6) The star becomes transparent to neutrinos again, emitting a neutrino pulse.

7) The core finishes collaping, and the star explodes with more energy than the sun releases in about ten billion years.



How to stat it in DnD: Everything without divine ranks dies. No save, no immunity, nothing.

AstralFire
2009-06-24, 11:15 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/surelife.htm

quick_comment
2009-06-24, 11:35 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/surelife.htm

A supernova is not a condition. It a unfathomable shock wave of all sorts of elementary particles and elements. Also, the shockwave is going to last more than 1 minute/2 levels.

AstralFire
2009-06-24, 11:37 PM
It is, however, a natural occurrence. And that's enough time to cast an exit spell. :D

quick_comment
2009-06-24, 11:40 PM
It is, however, a natural occurrence. And that's enough time to cast an exit spell. :D

Well, yes. If you leave the plane that the star is on it wont hurt you. (Although I would totally rule that the supernova affects coterminous planes)

ImmortalAer
2009-06-24, 11:50 PM
Epic magic can do anything. Besides that, there are certain factors that cause a star to go Supernova. Alter those factors, and you can change the nova. The laws of physics do not stop working simply because they are an impediment to the plot.

...okay, where's the Time Rewind spell. You need to reverse it's life back a few billion years.

quick_comment
2009-06-24, 11:53 PM
Epic spells can do everything. But they cannot do everything cheaply. Go ask your GM for what the ad hoc DC on the fortify seed is for granting you divine ranks.