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dragonfan6490
2009-06-20, 12:39 AM
Ok, so I'm about to start DMing a new 3.5 campaign, with the players beginning at level 0. They will only have their constitution for HP, -2 to all stats, no class features, no spells.

I want them to have to go through individual trials, where they will attain their first class level.

My problem is, I'm trying to figure out what sort of trial they should go through? I'm in a state of need and have writers block.

Emy
2009-06-20, 12:42 AM
:psyduck:

"-2 to all stats" - You're subtracting from something that isn't dependent on class levels?

Also, since the game doesn't support 0hd creatures, I'd start them all off with 1 racial HD, and treat the trials where they get their first level as a retraining quest (to retrain their racial hit die to a class level).

Quietus
2009-06-20, 01:22 AM
Ok, so I'm about to start DMing a new 3.5 campaign, with the players beginning at level 0. They will only have their constitution for HP, -2 to all stats, no class features, no spells.

I want them to have to go through individual trials, where they will attain their first class level.

My problem is, I'm trying to figure out what sort of trial they should go through? I'm in a state of need and have writers block.

The first question you should ask yourself is : Why? Make sure your players know full well that you have a plan for this, because starting below level 0 is not an appealing prospect, if all it will be is a gimmick game.

Beyond that, you're on your own; I have never really put thought into an idea like this.

Nohwl
2009-06-20, 01:30 AM
the quest you are having them do needs to end at a tavern.

MCerberus
2009-06-20, 01:39 AM
Option 1: Tribal setting. This lends itself better to lower-tech, but seems to fit the concept. Something Celtic should do well. Vision quests, looking deep inside yourself blah blah.

Option 2: Standardized test of DOOM. These tests are done to everyone and decide their future. It turns out the party has done pretty well. Trouble down the road could be people going rogue or someone cheating.

Option 3: Amnesia, it's all a dream, and oh yah! you're in prison. Don't do this.

Lawless III
2009-06-20, 01:44 AM
This ploy stands a good chance of alienating and disinteresting your players. I'd start tham at atleast level one, mate.

Coidzor
2009-06-20, 02:09 AM
So, what, like Graduation exams at Adventurer's College?

Hmm, I think there's some kind of variant of "Apprentice" level PCs below level 1 PCs... basically have the HP but no class features and I think only one simple weapon proficiency like a commoner or sommat. Or maybe they get proficiencies in armor and weapons but no feats other than, say, the human bonus feat and their racial traits. It might be a "Half HD" sort of thing as well.

I'm trying to remember where I saw that variant since it seems much more survivable and enjoyable for the players...

But yeah, definitely have them end up in the tavern where they receive their level 1 starter quest...

Ichneumon
2009-06-20, 02:19 AM
You could also have them take 1 level in a "generic" class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm), it would thematically mean they aren't specialised yet as they will be when they choose real classes like rogue, ranger, cleric, wizard or fighter, but it will not mean they are weak and difficult to manage encounterwise. They can have real first level encounters while still really feeling like they are "at the start" of becoming special.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-20, 02:32 AM
Ok, so I'm about to start DMing a new 3.5 campaign, with the players beginning at level 0. They will only have their constitution for HP, -2 to all stats, no class features, no spells.

I want them to have to go through individual trials, where they will attain their first class level.

My problem is, I'm trying to figure out what sort of trial they should go through? I'm in a state of need and have writers block.

Yeah this is maybe a lot of work for nothing.

First, you have seriously gimped the characters to the point where they are all the same. The fighter, the wizard and the rogue can only range attack or melee monsters with simple weapons and light armor and shields (shield and martial weapons are fighter class abilities).

So first somehow give back "class" but take only some abilities. For ex, the wizard and cleric can cast only cantrips and 1 level 1 spell per day (regardless of int or wis), the fighter does not have a bonus feat, the rogue only has half has a few skill points. And give them say half or a quarter of the starting gp.

Then, you have to make the pcs more survivable. Give them all their regular hd and subtract only 1 point from ability scores.

Now you still have severely weakened characters who might fall to a lowly pack of kobolds or dire rats. So you have to scale back the encounters and the number of encounters.

Finally, I would suggest setting a really low number of xp to get to full level 1, say 250 xp. Or just say that after they complete the first adventure, they get to level 1. You really don't want to spend worrying that much time worrying over gimped pcs and I don't think that the players will want to play them for long either.

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-20, 02:35 AM
I like the idea of having it as a rite of passage (it could be used for a tribal initiation for finishing their training). The only drawback with using Generic classes is that they may arguably be better then the classes they would be turning into (eg: I'd say Clerics are better then Generic Spellcasters, but they are stronger then Sorcerers). On the whole, I agree about it being a bad idea to not start the PCs at level 1 due to seeing the backstory as being where the "before the game starts" stuff should be kept to (I'd feel as though you were just delaying the start of the game by having the party having to earn 1 class level).

Yora
2009-06-20, 03:18 AM
Let them make their 1st level characters. Then make 1st level commoners with the same ability scores, which they use for the starting quest.
But as someone else said: Why?
Things like these should be done, because it fits the story you have in mind. I wouldn't take such an idea first and then build a story around that.

Fitz10019
2009-06-20, 05:35 AM
I think you're treading on the players' territory, as players typically decide how their careers got started. If the players don't care, here are some ideas...

Players grew up together and hit their tribe's/village's rite of passage at the same time. They are each set with challenges by the elders, and cooperate to overcome them. [Awkward, as they should probably all be one race.]

Players are all apprentices in the mansion of a wealthy lord. Their masters are all incapacitated during a grand ball, for the purpose of an invasion or robbery. The apprentices, who never worked together before, have to team up to save everyone. Outcome 1: Thereafter, the lord promotes them and sends them on missions. The power of the group is stronger than the sum of its parts. Outcome 2: Everyone else is dead but the players escaped with the targetted McGuffin-Artifact, and set out to remain a few steps ahead of the invading force and yet find out more about the Artifact.

Each player finds himself in a tight spot (appropriate to his future class), and prays to his chosen diety. Surpisingly, the diety responds, saying, "Are you ready to serve? Show me." The character gets a +10 divine bonus on his next few rolls to get out of his tight spot. Thereafter he feels 'called' (even if the calling is as a pickpocket).

Dagren
2009-06-20, 05:41 AM
IIRC there are rules in the DMG for "apprentice level" characters with less power than even a level 1 character. They were designed for 1st level multiclassing, but I see no reason why you couldn't knock something together from them.

Tusalu
2009-06-20, 06:07 AM
I am currently running a lvl 0 campaign too. The way I handle it is treat them as having the worst of all classes (4 hd, 2 skill points etc...) until reaching level 1 and thus gaining a class. However all skills are class skills, until you gain a class, then your skills adapt to the skill list of that class (having 4 ranks in spot and then becoming fighter transforms it to 2 ranks).
It's actually rather interesting to play that low-powered - combat is very rare, and I have to find other kinds of challenges (often skill-based). The primary goal of the group is always to earn enough money to afford food and lodging from day to day. (one of the "quests" was repairing a fence for a farmer, it earned them 10 silver (2 meals). The group is only two people, and one of the characters has a 4 in strength so teamwork is a neccesity.

oxinabox
2009-06-20, 06:31 AM
stepping away from the mechanics of the a 0th level character.
.. reminds me of the plan i had to give everyone 5 levels of commoner.

hmmm.

thinking spirits. prebirth/postdeath
Staying away from combat.
Roleplaying situation.

Maybe the Creator god want them to prove they can be people.
So he sets them tests. Not to see if they will be good or evil, butto see if they will be human (resp. race).
So You run some simple situations:
* You come to a cross road down one road is a peaceful village where they can find work (eg smithing, trades type work)
The other is much darker, if smells dank. the road looks like it's deteriorating.
and Of on the distance you can see a windy path up to a dark castle.

*you are walking down a road: on your left you see a ridge of hills, beyond the hills: smoke (as if from a bomfire) and when the wind blows from that direction you can smell the smell of roasting flesh.
To your right is a farm house, the Goodwife comes running towards you; "Help! my husband was out cutting wood, and the tree fell upon him, and i and to weak to lift it on my own."

* they are operating a Tavern. A poor looking woman come to them and asks to buy a glass of ale and a expensive meal (with the promise to pay after she's eaten as is the custom in the region). if they sell it to her, she eat the meal then walks out with out paying. when you go to pay the staff you are short. how do you pay it?


Alternate
hmm, start game.
Wait 'til players go to sleep without setting a watch. (or have the first watch's wine poisoned so he falls asleep {if he make the Fort save, poison the next guy once the first has gone to sleep and so on})
Have everyone make listen checks (i believe it's -5 penalty for being asleep, no penalty if trancing i think - poison the elves)
Assuming they all fail (set a HIGH DC), tell them:
"Congratulations, you were all coup de graced while asleep.
Life sucks, now enjoy death"

In order to return to life they have to trick the Death god.
Somehow.
Let the players work out how (Just run off the top of your head)
Possibly if you have a physical underworld then they can escape, and go find there bodies. and depending on your resurrection rules they can just slip back in to them, or they have to go influence someone to resurrect them.


Alternate
You find a lamp.
out comes a noble efeeti.
Grants them one wishes.
Which they can take back, and wish for something else.
Unless they make a wish that helps someone else,
the reward for there wish always has a cost that is greater the gain.
Eg: "I wish i had 1,000,00 Gp." - players are surrounded by a mountain of money up to there necks. they can't move and are slowly staving to death.
"I wish I had a big glass of Ale." when they drink it they get very drunk and insult the lord of the town. next thing they know the noose is being fitted around there necks.
This continues until they make a wish for something that helps others and only others.

dunno maybe these ideas wil lhelp break your block

dragonfan6490
2009-06-20, 10:39 AM
The first question you should ask yourself is : Why? Make sure your players know full well that you have a plan for this, because starting below level 0 is not an appealing prospect, if all it will be is a gimmick game.

They all know that they will be starting at level 0 and like the idea. Actually, they are starting at level 20, are going to go through one session, die, then become reincarnated. They already know about this whole plan. I don't like bad surprises, so I'm giving them heads up.


Option 1: Tribal setting. This lends itself better to lower-tech, but seems to fit the concept. Something Celtic should do well. Vision quests, looking deep inside yourself blah blah.

Most of my campaign setting is trying to get a Celtic feel to it so this sort of what I was going for.


So, what, like Graduation exams at Adventurer's College?

Hmm, I think there's some kind of variant of "Apprentice" level PCs below level 1 PCs... basically have the HP but no class features and I think only one simple weapon proficiency like a commoner or sommat. Or maybe they get proficiencies in armor and weapons but no feats other than, say, the human bonus feat and their racial traits. It might be a "Half HD" sort of thing as well.

I'm trying to remember where I saw that variant since it seems much more survivable and enjoyable for the players...

But yeah, definitely have them end up in the tavern where they receive their level 1 starter quest...

Sort of, they are the "not-first-born" children of nobles, and their masters are taking them to these trials.

Yeah, that looks alot better than what I was thinking. I'll use that Apprentice variant. Thanks.


Yeah this is maybe a lot of work for nothing.

First, you have seriously gimped the characters to the point where they are all the same. The fighter, the wizard and the rogue can only range attack or melee monsters with simple weapons and light armor and shields (shield and martial weapons are fighter class abilities).

So first somehow give back "class" but take only some abilities. For ex, the wizard and cleric can cast only cantrips and 1 level 1 spell per day (regardless of int or wis), the fighter does not have a bonus feat, the rogue only has half has a few skill points. And give them say half or a quarter of the starting gp.

Then, you have to make the pcs more survivable. Give them all their regular hd and subtract only 1 point from ability scores.

Now you still have severely weakened characters who might fall to a lowly pack of kobolds or dire rats. So you have to scale back the encounters and the number of encounters.

Finally, I would suggest setting a really low number of xp to get to full level 1, say 250 xp. Or just say that after they complete the first adventure, they get to level 1. You really don't want to spend worrying that much time worrying over gimped pcs and I don't think that the players will want to play them for long either.

That was my worry too, I didn't want them to be all the same at level 0. To get to level 1, I was going to make it 100 quest xp.


Things like these should be done, because it fits the story you have in mind. I wouldn't take such an idea first and then build a story around that.

Most of the story is done, I was thinking of using the trial/initiation quest as a way to introduce their current incarnations to one another, and introduce their "destiny" to them. I'm fond of the large, overarching story, where the PC's go and save the world.


I think you're treading on the players' territory, as players typically decide how their careers got started. If the players don't care, here are some ideas...

They don't particularly care, but as they are "not-first-born", they have a chance to really customize their background. One of my players is already working on his backstory, and his is the son of the noble's mistress, and so he was left to his own devices and more or less ignored by everyone, save his master, who taught him the ways of...you get the idea.

Anywho, thanks for the ideas, I look forward to more coming along.

woodenbandman
2009-06-20, 10:49 AM
There's a campaign I saw once where all the players started out as level 6 commoners, but they got to rebuild their levels one at a time as NPC classes, such as Adept, Aristocrat, or Expert. They then once they reached level 6 of their NPC class, they got PC classes, like barbarian. This could work if you give the PCs all commoner levels and most everyone else at least 1 level of an NPC class.

Dixieboy
2009-06-20, 11:55 AM
What about... childhood? >.>