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J.Gellert
2009-06-20, 03:50 AM
I have been thinking that it's silly to restrict full attacks to characters at mid-high levels. BAB progression basically tells you "If you are level 3, and not dual-wielding, you are wasting a move-action by fighting". At the same time the high number of attacks by level 20 means your last ones aren't really likely to land so they are mostly taking time in battle.

I am thinking of doing this.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus

1st|
+1/-4

2nd|
+2/-3

3rd|
+3/-2

4th|
+4/-1

5th|
+5/+0

6th|
+6/+1

7th|
+7/+2

8th|
+8/+3

9th|
+9/+4

10th|
+10/+5

11th|
+11/+6/+1

12th|
+12/+7/+2

13th|
+13/+8/+3

14th|
+14/+9/+4

15th|
+15/+10/+5

16th|
+16/+11/+6

17th|
+17/+12/+7

18th|
+18/+13/+8

19th|
+19/+14/+9

20th|
+20/+15/+10

[/table]

Tables for other classes follow a similar progression.

At the same time, Fighters can receive this feat:

Weapon Mastery
Choose one weapon with which you have already selected Greater Weapon Specialization. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 16th.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with the chosen weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: You can gain Weapon Mastery multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Mastery as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Thoughts?

Pyrusticia
2009-06-20, 04:51 AM
I think the BAB table you've suggested is a good fix for the 'wasted move action' problem. I don't see it as causing a huge problem, since about the only time a 1st level fighter is going to hit on his second attack is if he really outclasses his opponent anyway (CR 1/2 or 1/3), in which case it makes sense that they should be able to take out more than one per round...or at least, have the chance of doing so.

I don't see this as really solving the wasted attacks problem you pointed out, though. Odds are a fighter's not going to hit anything at -10 off his BAB, unless he's fighting something that won't get him experience anyway. A possible solution to that would be to offer a feat that allows a PC to reduce the penalty on additional attacks. Below is something I just brainstormed up, it probably needs balancing, but offers the general idea of what I'm talking about:

Precision Multistrike

Prerequisites: BAB 6+

Benefits: You have trained to improve the accuracy of your blows, without sacrificing speed. All attacks after the first one reduce their to-hit penalty by one. This applies only to the penalty inherent in full attacks (-5 per additional attack), and this benefit cannot reduce the penalty below zero. This feat does not increase the total number of attacks granted by a full attack.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it reduces to-hit penalties by an additional one point. This feat may be taken as one of a fighter's bonus feats.

*****

As for Weapon Mastery, you're basically just giving Flurry of Blows to a sufficiently skilled fighter. I don't see a problem with this. It might be a little much to limit it to a single weapon, though.

J.Gellert
2009-06-20, 06:49 AM
Hm... you are probably right. But if I am fixing this, I will do it for everyone and not just with a feat.

At this point I am tempted to just make it so: When you use the Full Attack action, each additional attack is made at your full BAB.

If it worked in 2nd edition AD&D...

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus

1st|
+1/+1

2nd|
+2/+2

3rd|
+3/+3

4th|
+4/+4

5th|
+5/+5

6th|
+6/+6

7th|
+7/+7

8th|
+8/+8

9th|
+9/+9

10th|
+10/+10

11th|
+11/+11

12th|
+12/+12

13th|
+13/+13

14th|
+14/+14

15th|
+15/+15

16th|
+16/+16

17th|
+17/+17

18th|
+18/+18

19th|
+19/+19

20th|
+20/+20

[/table]

Then change Weapon Mastery so it can be chosen sooner, perhaps at level 12.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-20, 08:18 AM
I'm thinking of running a low/no-magic campaign, & a progression like yours is a good start. I think that you'd still need magic items to make it work, though. A few months ago, some 'brewer came up with a list of alternate saving throw progressions that really got me thinking. If my 17th-level Barbarian didn't have a +4 shocking burst great-axe, what would he need to defeat a CR17 monster? Here's my idea so far for the Optional BAB Progressions:

{table=head]Level|Weak (½HD)|Average (¾HD)|Strong (1HD)|Great (1¼HD)|Amazing (1½HD)|Perfect (1¾HD)|Sublime (2HD)
1st|+0|+0|+1|+1|+1|+1|+2
2nd|+1|+1|+2|+2|+3|+3|+4
3rd|+1|+2|+3|+3|+4|+5|+6/+1
4th|+2|+3|+4|+5|+6/+1|+7/+2|+8/+3
5th|+2|+3|+5|+6/+1|+7/+2|+8/+3|+10/+5
6th|+3|+4|+6/+1|+7/+2|+9/+4|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2
7th|+3|+5|+7/+2|+8/+3|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2|+14/+9/+4
8th|+4|+6/+1|+8/+3|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2|+14/+9/+4|+16/+11/+6/+1
9th|+4|+6/+1|+9/+4|+11/+6/+1|+13/+8/+3|+15/+10/+5|+18/+13/+8/+3
10th|+5|+7/+2|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2|+15/+10/+5|+17/+12/+7/+2|+20/+15/+10/+5
11th|+5|+8/+3|+11/+6/+1|+13/+8/+3|+16/+11/+6/+1|+19/+14/+9/+4|+22/+17/+12/+7
12th|+6/+1|+9/+4|+12/+7/+2|+15/+10/+5|+18/+13/+8/+3|+21/+16/+11/+6|+24/+19/+14/+9
13th|+6/+1|+9/+4|+13/+8/+3|+16/+11/+6/+1|+19/+14/+9/+4|+22/+17/+12/+7|+26/+21/+16/+11
14th|+7/+2|+10/+5|+14/+9/+4|+17/+12/+7/+2|+21/+16/+11/+6|+24/+19/+14/+9|+28/+23/+18/+13
15th|+7/+2|+11/+6/+1|+15/+10/+5|+18/+13/+8/+3|+22/+17/+12/+7|+26/+21/+16/+11|+30/+25/+20/+15
16th|+8/+3|+12/+7/+2|+16/+11/+6/+1|+20/+15/+10/+5|+24/+19/+14/+9|+28/+23/+18/+13|+32/+27/+22/+17
17th|+8/+3|+12/+7/+2|+17/+12/+7/+2|+21/+16/+11/+6|+25/+20/+15/+10|+29/+24/+19/+14|+34/+29/+24/+19
18th|+9/+4|+13/+8/+3|+18/+13/+8/+3|+22/+17/+12/+7|+27/+22/+17/+12|+31/+26/+21/+16|+36/+31/+26/+21
19th|+9/+4|+14/+9/+4|+19/+14/+9/+4|+23/+18/+13/+8|+28/+23/+18/+13|+33/+28/+23/+18|+38/+33/+28/+23
20th|+10/+5|+15/+10/+5|+20/+15/+10/+5|+25/+20/+15/+10|+30/+25/+20/+15|+35/+30/+25/+20|+40/+35/+30/+25[/table]

And here's the Optional Save Progressions:
{table=head]Level|Poor (⅓HD+0)|Average (0.4HD+1)|Good (½HD+2)|Great (⅔HD+3)|Amazing (¾HD+4)|Perfect (HD+5)
1st|+0|+1|+2|+3|+4|+6
2nd|+0|+1|+3|+4|+5|+7
3rd|+1|+2|+3|+5|+6|+8
4th|+1|+2|+4|+5|+7|+9
5th|+1|+3|+4|+6|+7|+10
6th|+2|+3|+5|+7|+8|+11
7th|+2|+3|+5|+7|+9|+12
8th|+2|+4|+6|+8|+10|+13
9th|+3|+4|+6|+9|+10|+14
10th|+3|+5|+7|+9|+11|+15
11th|+3|+5|+7|+10|+12|+16
12th|+4|+6|+8|+11|+13|+17
13th|+4|+6|+8|+11|+13|+18
14th|+4|+6|+9|+12|+14|+19
15th|+5|+7|+9|+13|+15|+20
16th|+5|+7|+10|+13|+16|+21
17th|+5|+8|+10|+14|+16|+22
18th|+6|+8|+11|+15|+17|+23
19th|+6|+9|+11|+15|+18|+24
20th|+6|+9|+12|+16|+19|+25[/table]

Baron Corm
2009-06-20, 01:55 PM
Hm... you are probably right. But if I am fixing this, I will do it for everyone and not just with a feat.

At this point I am tempted to just make it so: When you use the Full Attack action, each additional attack is made at your full BAB.

If it worked in 2nd edition AD&D...

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus

1st|
+1/+1

2nd|
+2/+2

3rd|
+3/+3

4th|
+4/+4

5th|
+5/+5

6th|
+6/+6

7th|
+7/+7

8th|
+8/+8

9th|
+9/+9

10th|
+10/+10

11th|
+11/+11

12th|
+12/+12

13th|
+13/+13

14th|
+14/+14

15th|
+15/+15

16th|
+16/+16

17th|
+17/+17

18th|
+18/+18

19th|
+19/+19

20th|
+20/+20

[/table]

Then change Weapon Mastery so it can be chosen sooner, perhaps at level 12.

A part of me thinks this is the best progression available. It makes extra attacks during a full attack mean more, and it reduces ridiculous damage potentials that fighters can get, while also killing off the frustrating -15 attacks. Getting that full attack is still important, as it still results in double damage.

The other part of me is sad that having 1/1 BAB means less now. It amounts to a relatively small attack bonus. I think something else should be added to make them feel cooler.

Kingreaper
2009-06-20, 02:36 PM
A part of me thinks this is the best progression available. It makes extra attacks during a full attack mean more, and it reduces ridiculous damage potentials that fighters can get, while also killing off the frustrating -15 attacks. Getting that full attack is still important, as it still results in double damage.

The other part of me is sad that having 1/1 BAB means less now. It amounts to a relatively small attack bonus. I think something else should be added to make them feel cooler.

As a standard ability, without feats, you can take a -4 (or 3 or 5 depending on how it playtests) penalty to all attacks in order to gain an additional attack?

With feats, the penalty gets smaller?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 03:04 PM
And here's the Optional Save Progressions:
{table=head]Level|Poor (⅓HD+0)|Average (0.4HD+1)|Good (½HD+2)|Great (⅔HD+3)|Amazing (¾HD+4)|Perfect (HD+5)
1st|+0|+1|+2|+3|+4|+6
2nd|+0|+1|+3|+4|+5|+7
...|...|...|...|...|...|...
19th|+6|+9|+11|+15|+18|+24
20th|+6|+9|+12|+16|+19|+25[/table]

Is there a particular reason the save progressions don't follow a +6/+9/+12/+15/+18/+21/... pattern the same way the BAB progressions follow a +10/+15/+20/+25/+30/... pattern?

J.Gellert
2009-06-20, 03:25 PM
The other part of me is sad that having 1/1 BAB means less now. It amounts to a relatively small attack bonus. I think something else should be added to make them feel cooler.

Do you mean, when compared to 3/4 BAB? Hmm...

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 03:37 PM
Do you mean, when compared to 3/4 BAB? Hmm...

You could always make BAB give both a horizontal and a vertical expansion--poor BAB goes to +10, average goes to +15/+15, and full goes to +20/+20/+20.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-20, 04:13 PM
Is there a particular reason the save progressions don't follow a +6/+9/+12/+15/+18/+21/... pattern the same way the BAB progressions follow a +10/+15/+20/+25/+30/... pattern?

Because the math doesn't work out that way, & forcing it to do so would be inelegant, IMO. A Great save progression is equal to ⅔HD+3, which works out to +16 at 20th level. The Amazing save progression (¾HD+4) & Perfect save progression (HD+5) work out to +19 & +25, respectively.

J.Gellert
2009-06-20, 06:00 PM
You could always make BAB give both a horizontal and a vertical expansion--poor BAB goes to +10, average goes to +15/+15, and full goes to +20/+20/+20.

That doesn't help with the wasted move action problem when you look at the low BAB, and three attacks from the beginning for full BAB may be a bit too much... Maybe I can make it so that third attack doesn't kick in until level 16 or so.

However, I don't feel it's too bad if full BAB doesn't get more attacks than 3/4 BAB; in the old system, warriors only get more attacks on half of all levels (6th, 7th, 11th, 12th, and so on) compared to clerics, and these attacks are made with a low attack bonus so they aren't as likely to hit anyway.

In contrast, this lower overall number of attacks makes two-weapon fighting more desirable.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 06:05 PM
Because the math doesn't work out that way, & forcing it to do so would be inelegant, IMO. A Great save progression is equal to ⅔HD+3, which works out to +16 at 20th level. The Amazing save progression (¾HD+4) & Perfect save progression (HD+5) work out to +19 & +25, respectively.

Well, obviously the math doesn't work out that way or it would be that way. :smallwink: I guess what I meant to ask is why that formula was chosen over something else. The BAB one follows a certain pattern (going up by 1/4 each time), so why wouldn't saves be 0.3+0, 0.4+1, 0.5+2, 0.6+3, 0.7+4, and 0.8+5? That gives +6/+9/+12/+15/+18/+21 and follows a logical and elegant progression while still matching the existing good and poor progressions.


That doesn't help with the wasted move action problem when you look at the low BAB, and three attacks from the beginning for full BAB may be a bit too much... Maybe I can make it so that third attack doesn't kick in until level 16 or so.

I think I may be missing the point of the revision, then...what is the "wasted move action problem"? At low levels you can actually use move actions, because you don't gain anything from full attacks, where it's at higher levels that you have to stand still and swing.


However, I don't feel it's too bad if full BAB doesn't get more attacks than 3/4 BAB; in the old system, warriors only get more attacks on half of all levels (6th, 7th, 11th, 12th, and so on) compared to clerics, and these attacks are made with a low attack bonus so they aren't as likely to hit anyway.

In contrast, this lower overall number of attacks makes two-weapon fighting more desirable.

I guess another question is why TWF should be more desirable. In prior editions sword-and-board was the only sensible way to go, but now you go THF with Power Attack or TWF with some source of extra damage (touch attacks, flaming weapons, sneak attack, etc.). I'd have thought making sword-and-board better by narrowing the number of attacks margin would be better.

J.Gellert
2009-06-20, 06:17 PM
I think I may be missing the point of the revision, then...what is the "wasted move action problem"? At low levels you can actually use move actions, because you don't gain anything from full attacks, where it's at higher levels that you have to stand still and swing.

I guess another question is why TWF should be more desirable. In prior editions sword-and-board was the only sensible way to go, but now you go THF with Power Attack or TWF with some source of extra damage (touch attacks, flaming weapons, sneak attack, etc.). I'd have thought making sword-and-board better by narrowing the number of attacks margin would be better.

The problem is when a low-level character wants to do nothing but stand and swing, and he still only gets one attack as if he'd just used a Standard Action.

I am improving shields anyway so I don't worry about sword and board :smallredface:

arguskos
2009-06-20, 06:32 PM
Zeta, do you recall what classes were supposed to get which progressions? If you do, would you mind enlightening me, since I am VEEEEERY curious about them.... :smallcool:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-20, 10:03 PM
The problem is when a low-level character wants to do nothing but stand and swing, and he still only gets one attack as if he'd just used a Standard Action.

I am improving shields anyway so I don't worry about sword and board :smallredface:

Ah, so it's a "don't want to use a move action" problem. Gotcha.

One solution that doesn't involve mucking with BAB would be to give a +2 attack bonus if you make a standard attack without moving in that round--like a charge, but you get the momentum (from a windup or whatever) without the recklessness of rushing across the room. But then, that's not as fun as reworking BAB, is it?

Baron Corm
2009-06-21, 01:00 AM
On second thought, you don't really need to give 1/1s something else. This way makes the 3/4s feel less bad, which is actually good. And the difference between 1/1 and 1/2 remains significant enough that there's no problem there.

I like this so far, how are you improving shields?

J.Gellert
2009-06-21, 04:29 AM
On second thought, you don't really need to give 1/1s something else. This way makes the 3/4s feel less bad, which is actually good. And the difference between 1/1 and 1/2 remains significant enough that there's no problem there.

I like this so far, how are you improving shields?

I am doing this:

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a martial one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round) against attacks made by enemies other than the one you attacked with the shield bash. An enhancement bonus on a shield improves the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it.

And:

IMPROVED SHIELD BASH [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC. In addition, any penalties to attacks incurred by the shield bash are reduced as if you had the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC against enemies other than the target of the shield bash until his or her next turn.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Shield Bash as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I am also factoring them in on a number of combat maneuvers I am designing but until I get started on them I can't say how it will work out.

Edit: Of course, no animated shields. But I killed them off from my games years ago anyway.

Cieyrin
2009-06-21, 10:39 AM
So essentially Improved Shield Bash incorporates Agile Shield Fighter (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Agile_Shield_Fighter,PH2) now, huh? Not necessarily a bad idea, I guess.

Maybe something to look to is having variable BABs depending on what kind of action you take. Like if you take a standard action you get a reduced BAB and if you full attack you get full, multiple attacks included. Say I was a 11th level fighter, I can make standard action attacks at BAB +6, getting 2 attacks, and full round action attacks at BAB +11, getting 3 attacks, or something like that. There's probably a better method of going about that then the way I outlined, as I'm just throwing out ideas.

As for Zeta's BABs, they're most reminiscent to me of the progressions from Iron Heroes, at least up to Great BAB, which was reserved only for Archers with a good bow and Weapon Masters with their weapon of choice. With that in mind, perhaps it would be beneficial to look at this from the point of view of taking feats to get better progressions on the list. Like, if you took Weapon Focus and you already had Strong BAB for your class, you instead use Great BAB with that weapon. It would go up to Amazing with Greater Weapon Focus for that weapon only. The same could be done with saves by using Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes to go up to the next best save progression for that save.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Jane_Smith
2009-06-21, 11:01 AM
Use the weapon speed system from Everquest, the Rpg.

Basicly all weapons have a speed rating. Daggers have Ultra Fast, Longswords have Fast, Greatswords have Slow, Mauls/etc have Ultra Slow. A dagger, by 20th level, can get +20/+17/+14/+11/+8 base attack. A longsword by 20th level can get +20/+16/+12/+8/+4. A greatsword would get +20/+14/+8/+2, and a maul would get like +20/+13/+6.

Spells like Haste and Slow effect attack speeds. As well as enchantments like Speed and feats like Slice and Dice.

Only problem is. You have to redo all the damages of all weapons. slow to ultra-slow weapons like greatswords and two-handed hammers, etc have damages up in the 2d8, 3d6, 3d8 and 4d6 stuff, ultra fast to fast has usually 1d4, 1d6, 2d4.

In this way, classes only have 1 base attack. Like +20 bab. The weapons make the additional attacks based on a chart. Also, natural weapons get speeds, to, which allow creatures to make multiple attacks. >>

J.Gellert
2009-06-21, 01:21 PM
So essentially Improved Shield Bash incorporates Agile Shield Fighter (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Agile_Shield_Fighter,PH2) now, huh? Not necessarily a bad idea, I guess.

Maybe something to look to is having variable BABs depending on what kind of action you take. Like if you take a standard action you get a reduced BAB and if you full attack you get full, multiple attacks included. Say I was a 11th level fighter, I can make standard action attacks at BAB +6, getting 2 attacks, and full round action attacks at BAB +11, getting 3 attacks, or something like that. There's probably a better method of going about that then the way I outlined, as I'm just throwing out ideas.

Huh, I hadn't noticed Agile Shield Fighter at all, but even so, I am sticking with this, yes. Because the way I am doing this, Improved Shield Bash gives you 2 good things - Agile Shield Fighter gives you one thing (TWF) and restricts it on shields so... why would I not take TWF (requirements aside)?


Use the weapon speed system from Everquest, the Rpg.

Basicly all weapons have a speed rating. Daggers have Ultra Fast, Longswords have Fast, Greatswords have Slow, Mauls/etc have Ultra Slow. A dagger, by 20th level, can get +20/+17/+14/+11/+8 base attack. A longsword by 20th level can get +20/+16/+12/+8/+4. A greatsword would get +20/+14/+8/+2, and a maul would get like +20/+13/+6.

Spells like Haste and Slow effect attack speeds. As well as enchantments like Speed and feats like Slice and Dice.

Only problem is. You have to redo all the damages of all weapons. slow to ultra-slow weapons like greatswords and two-handed hammers, etc have damages up in the 2d8, 3d6, 3d8 and 4d6 stuff, ultra fast to fast has usually 1d4, 1d6, 2d4.

In this way, classes only have 1 base attack. Like +20 bab. The weapons make the additional attacks based on a chart. Also, natural weapons get speeds, to, which allow creatures to make multiple attacks. >>

That sounds interesting, but I don't have the game to compare...

On the other hand, even if I leave weapon damage as it is, it's going to be an awful lot of work to assign speeds to everything, including monsters...

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-21, 03:35 PM
On the other hand, even if I leave weapon damage as it is, it's going to be an awful lot of work to assign speeds to everything, including monsters...

Not necessarily. You could simply assign speeds based on light/one hand/two hand distinctions for characters (though that wouldn't provide as much granularity) and assign speeds to bites, claws, etc. in general rather than per monster.

J.Gellert
2009-06-21, 04:22 PM
Bites don't ordinarily get iterative attacks... It's usually a Bite/Claw combination.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-21, 05:14 PM
Bites don't ordinarily get iterative attacks... It's usually a Bite/Claw combination.

You'd simply treat bite/claw/claw or whatever the same way you treat two-weapon or multi-weapon fighting (do you take the best speed, worst speed, average, etc.), so once you figured out how to combine manufactured weapons the monster attacks would take care of themselves.