Goblinoid color scheme

[Kidmm]

THis may have come up before, but if so, I can't find it in a forum search. Has anyone else ever noticed that the goblinoid color scheme generally matches that of the iconic Spider-Man villains, the Green Goblin and the Hobgoblin?

We know that Rich is a long-time comic book fan, as are many of us; if this was intentional, then it makes for a nice, subtle tribute.

Just a thought.

[Ancalagon]

Two samples does not make statistics. But this does not mean you are wrong, though - the samples we just have do not allow to draw that conclusion or be counted as proof it's wrong.

[Altaria87]

I doubt it was a purpouseful homage to Spiderman, Goblins are green in most forms of media, not sure about Hobbos though

[Morty]

Goblins in fantasy are very often green - not in D&D, but it's one of the cases Rich doesn't follow the books - and I suspect this is why the Goblin in Spiderman is green too. Hobgoblins in D&D are organge, and OoTS follows that. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that Rich references Spiderman in OoTS.

[Kidmm]

When you say two samples, do you mean that we've only seen two races of goblinoids? That would certainly be true, but among those two races, with the notable exception of the Dark One who ascended to godhood, every goblin has been green, and every hobgoblin has been orange.

[Kidmm]

Anyway, regardless of the what the answer may be, if Rich ever decides to settle the issue, it was a fun little bit of speculation on my part.

For all commenters, thanks for reading my post in the first place; I'll take all the affirmation I can get.

[Generic Name #6]

The psionic from #546 was a bluish-violet. Is there any goblinoid race that's naturally/usually that color?

[Morty]

The psionic from #546 was a bluish-violet. Is there any goblinoid race that's naturally/usually that color?

Blues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm) are a goblinoid race with a talent for psionics and, big surprise, blue skin.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

What about bugbears? I thought they were aso goblinoids, just hairier. What color are they normally? I always sort of figured brownish. And bigger, and longer ears.

[Axl_Rose]

Two samples does not make statistics. But this does not mean you are wrong, though - the samples we just have do not allow to draw that conclusion or be counted as proof it's wrong.

Two samples can often "make statistics". Statistics can be broken down into descriptive and inferential, and if I were to say "the mean of this sample's height is 6 feet" that "makes statistics"

You probably meant to say "two samples aren't enough to make a valid statistically significant conclusion." Well, you'd be wrong in this respect too. 2 samples is often very much so enough to make a valid conclusion.

Your most basic and standard scientific experiment involves 2 sample groups, one independent variable, and then a comparison between the 2 samples. So long as the sample size is large enough for each group, and random selection and other potential confounds have been controlled for, hot dog!

What you mean is: two instances aren't enough for a good (defined as valid/convincing) conclusion.

[Babale]

Also, Orcs in D&D are usually not green. However, common media puts them as such, and Rich hopped on the bandwagon, so to speak.

I see no reason to assume that Goblins and Hobgoblins are any different.

[derfenrirwolv]

Two samples can often make statistics. In fact, ONE sample often makes for valid statistics.

So long as the sample size is large enough and random selection and other potential confounds have been controlled for.

Uhmmm... if you have one or two samples, then your sample size is one or two. Unless its a population of 4 you have far, far FAR too few samples.

[Axl_Rose]

hmmm... if you have one or two samples, then your sample size is one or two. Unless its a population of 4 you have far, far FAR too few samples.

Single case studies have been performed in the past and are a legitimate source of information, but I won't need to go into that since this is merely a matter of semantics.

In this context, by 2 samples, we mean 2 sample groups; ie. the goblins and the hobgoblins. Ancalagon was saying that using these 2 "samples" (really, a more appropriate word would have been groups, cases, instances, etc.) isn't enough to draw a valid conclusion.

[derfenrirwolv]

Single case studies have been performed in the past and are legitimate

Could you give me an example?





In this context, by 2 samples, we mean 2 sample groups; ie. the goblins and the hobgoblins. Ancalagon was saying that using these 2 "samples" (really, a more appropriate word would have been groups, cases, instances, etc.) isn't enough to draw a valid conclusion.

And he's right. The stats on anything with a sample size of 2 (or linked samples in 2 groups) won't let you confirm anything.

[Random832]

But we've seen dozens of goblins and hundreds of hobgoblins - it is clear that in the OOTS world, goblins are medium-sized and have green skin.

[thepsyker]

Blues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm) are a goblinoid race with a talent for psionics and, big surprise, blue skin.
And with the OP's theory there is Menace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menace_(comics)) who's a sort of Grayish/Blue.

[Morty]

And with the OP's theory there is Menace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menace_(comics)) who's a sort of Grayish/Blue.

Are you suggesting that D&D goblin coloring scheme is a homage to Spiderman?

[thepsyker]

Are you suggesting that D&D goblin coloring scheme is a homage to Spiderman?No, just going along with the OP's theory.

[NerfTW]

THis may have come up before, but if so, I can't find it in a forum search. Has anyone else ever noticed that the goblinoid color scheme generally matches that of the iconic Spider-Man villains, the Green Goblin and the Hobgoblin?

We know that Rich is a long-time comic book fan, as are many of us; if this was intentional, then it makes for a nice, subtle tribute.

Just a thought.

So the real question here is, have you never, ever seen a fantasy story in your entire life?

Also, for the record, Green Goblin was based on the classic "goblin" design, and Hobgoblin, surprise surprise, is named such BECAUSE he used the "hobgoblin" color scheme.

[DSCrankshaw]

Single case studies have been performed in the past and are a legitimate source of information, but I won't need to go into that since this is merely a matter of semantics.

In this context, by 2 samples, we mean 2 sample groups; ie. the goblins and the hobgoblins. Ancalagon was saying that using these 2 "samples" (really, a more appropriate word would have been groups, cases, instances, etc.) isn't enough to draw a valid conclusion.
Well, we definitely have enough samples to confirm that goblins are green and hobgoblins are orange in OotS. That won't, however, confirm that Rich's coloring scheme is based on Spider-man's. For that, we need different sampling groups, except that I'm afraid we're out, unless Spider-man has a criminal called the Bugbear.

In statistics, figuring out what question you're asking is even more important than the sample size.

[Didgin]

What about bugbears? I thought they were aso goblinoids, just hairier. What color are they normally? I always sort of figured brownish. And bigger, and longer ears.

There's a bugbear in a crayon flashback in SoD. Can't remember how it looked like though.

[R. Malcovitch]

What about bugbears? I thought they were aso goblinoids, just hairier. What color are they normally? I always sort of figured brownish. And bigger, and longer ears.

In SoD bugbears are depicted as yellow.

[thepsyker]

In SoD bugbears are depicted as yellow.
*Gasp* Just like Demogoblin (http://spiderman.wikia.com/wiki/Demogoblin). The OP is right! :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Shatteredtower]

"Oh, this is the biggest mixup,
That you have ever seen,
Me father he was Orange,
While me mother she was Green."

That (Irish) Rovers tune goes through my head every time I see Redcloak and a hobgoblin in the same panel.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Goblins in fantasy are very often green - not in D&D, but it's one of the cases Rich doesn't follow the books - and I suspect this is why the Goblin in Spiderman is green too.
Speak for yourself. When I was younger, I always visualized goblins as brown. I've never heard any goblin story where the goblins were specifically green. Certainly don't recall many green goblins in Labyrinth.

If goblins in the popular mindset were so consistently green, I doubt Osborn would have felt compelled to specify that he's the Green Goblin.


Two samples does not make statistics. But this does not mean you are wrong, though - the samples we just have do not allow to draw that conclusion or be counted as proof it's wrong.
Huh? So how many other Goblin does Spider-man have that could possibly have a D&D counterpart? Do we need to get a potential Demogoblin reference before we can hypothesize about characters that would have nothing to do with him?

[Threeshades]

There's a bugbear in a crayon flashback in SoD. Can't remember how it looked like though.
Something like this:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/Tobi-Sean/GoblinoidBugbear.png
(I made it using that part as a reference a while back)

I made a whole collection of Goblinoids in OOTS style but only the Bugbear, Gobling, Hobgoblin and Blue are based on actual oots material:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/Tobi-Sean/goblinoids2.png

[hamishspence]

I recognise Forestkith goblins (MM3), Dekanter Goblins (Monsters of Faerun), Blues (Psionics Handbook), and Varags (MMIV), but whats the redheaded one?

(though there is the Norker and Goblyn from Dragon magazine, and earlier editions of D&D)

Come to think of it, tasloi, from Oriental Adventures and Shining South, might qualify- they worship the goblin deity, though they lack the goblinoid subtype.

Then there's Drow of the Underdark Vril (Nilbog are mentioned as legendary in the Vril entry), Tome of Magic Dark goblin), Snow Goblins in Frostburn, and bhukas in Sandstorm (not sure if Bhukas are red-haired)

[BlueWizard]

The psionic from #546 was a bluish-violet. Is there any goblinoid race that's naturally/usually that color?

Blues are some of my favorites.

[Surprise!]

Goblins aren't wearing purple, /thread.

[nihil8r]

{Scrubbed}

[SadisticFishing]

Two things, nihil8r.

#1, don't be rude.
#2, D&D goblins are orangish brown.

[nihil8r]

Two things, nihil8r.

#1, don't be rude.
#2, D&D goblins are orangish brown.

well, i did check in the 3.5 mm and the picture does APPEAR to look brown. obviously i have a defective copy of the monster manual because EVERYONE knows that goblins have always been green! greeeeeeeeeeen!

[RedCloakLives!]

I guess it's possible. But here's an alternate suggestion ...

RB is a professional visual artist. He may have picked green because it was a convenient choice for achieving some visual design goals at the time:

1 - there has to be a good contrast between figures and background
2 - and visual contrast between protagonists and antagonists
3 - and it has to look nice
4 - and be within D&D sensibilities

OOTS is a very, very good-looking comic. Stick figures, in concept, may be simple, but the execution here is wonderfully sophisticated. The tools may be simple, but they're being wielded by a pro.

---

Solar! Wind! Green Power! Revolution! :smallwink:

[lyric76]

Well, we definitely have enough samples to confirm that goblins are green and hobgoblins are orange in OotS. That won't, however, confirm that Rich's coloring scheme is based on Spider-man's. For that, we need different sampling groups, except that I'm afraid we're out, unless Spider-man has a criminal called the Bugbear.

In statistics, figuring out what question you're asking is even more important than the sample size.


In this particular case, the problem is with word usage. The first person in this thread to bring stats into the discussion used sample to mean groups, and inadvertently brought up the question of sampling which impacts the power of the study.

You can have adequate sampling within one group to have enough power to make the results statistically significant.

You do not necessarily need more than one group to have results, significant or otherwise. Goblins is the group, and there are many goblins in the strip that make up the group. 100% of them are green. Result: Goblins are green, and since there are many of them, the results are significant.

If on the other hand, there are goblins who are not green, those goblins do not constitute a new group. They are still part of the goblin group. The variability will impact the result, but the variability does not create a new group.

[Random832]

wtf is this retardation? goblins have ALWAYS been green.

Not in D&D - the point is, Rich got green from somewhere, and that somewhere is not the Monster Manual, so it's open to speculation on where it did come from.

[SadisticFishing]

By the way, (I don't know the definitions and these are probably the wrong words) we're not looking at 2 groups. We're looking at 2 parts, those being the groups "Hobgoblins" and "Goblins". Until we see more types that match Spider-man, this is just 2 things that match. Which isn't nearly enough to draw any conclusions from...

[Snake-Aes]

Groxus(spoilered due to zomghuge image size) http://criticalanklebites.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/01-goblin_cmyk.jpg

[Skorj]

"Goblin" seems to come from the same roots as "kobold", but "hobgoblin" is a mashup of the ides of "hob" and "goblin", and so is a smaller, nicer goblin. So while goblins were chaotic in folklore, hobgoblins are closer to neutral, and become chaotic if mistreated (like a hob, or a brownie becoming a boggart). Apparantly you could get rid of a hobgoblin by giving it clothing, just like other kinds of hobs. I'm not sure where that comes in on the color debate, but being related to browies I suppose you could say that hobgoblins have always been browner then goblins. :smallsmile:

I'm surprised the D&D never fixed the mistake of making hobgoblins larger than goblins. Tolkien got it wrong in the Hobbit, and early D&D shamelessly ripped off Tolkien and never looked back. I guess so many other games have shamelessly ripped off D&D that "hobgoblin > goblin" is firmly entrenched in the gaming overmind by now.

[Snake-Aes]

"Goblin" seems to come from the same roots as "kobold", but "hobgoblin" is a mashup of the ides of "hob" and "goblin", and so is a smaller, nicer goblin. So while goblins were chaotic in folklore, hobgoblins are closer to neutral, and become chaotic if mistreated (like a hob, or a brownie becoming a boggart). Apparantly you could get rid of a hobgoblin by giving it clothing, just like other kinds of hobs. I'm not sure where that comes in on the color debate, but being related to browies I suppose you could say that hobgoblins have always been browner then goblins. :smallsmile:

I'm surprised the D&D never fixed the mistake of making hobgoblins larger than goblins. Tolkien got it wrong in the Hobbit, and early D&D shamelessly ripped off Tolkien and never looked back. I guess so many other games have shamelessly ripped off D&D that "hobgoblin > goblin" is firmly entrenched in the gaming overmind by now.
is that really the origin though?

[lyric76]

By the way, (I don't know the definitions and these are probably the wrong words) we're not looking at 2 groups. We're looking at 2 parts, those being the groups "Hobgoblins" and "Goblins". Until we see more types that match Spider-man, this is just 2 things that match. Which isn't nearly enough to draw any conclusions from...


Ok... again... groups doesn't mean individual cases. You draw conclusion and figure out significance based on the sample size. You compare things between groups. Sample size is the actual individuals involved in the study and are partitioned into groups.

Group 1 Goblins: How many goblins are you including in the study? etc etc...

Let's take a real life example. If you're comparing the efficacy of a drug A and you want to know if there are differences for male and female. Are you telling me that with your logic, since there are only 2 groups in the study that you cannot draw any conclusions?

[SadisticFishing]

No, group 1 isn't Goblins, because that's irrelevant, goblins are green. Hobgoblins are orange.

Group 1 is Goblinoid Races. Group 2 is Marvel Superheroes.

[lyric76]

No, group 1 isn't Goblins, because that's irrelevant, goblins are green. Hobgoblins are orange.

Group 1 is Goblinoid Races. Group 2 is Marvel Superheroes.


So speaking purely from a statistics point of view and not some homebrew idea of what statistics should be. Even with that flawed question, you can STILL come to a conclusion. It just won't be statistically significant.

The question of statistically significance never stopped drug companies and reporters so why should it stop you.

[SadisticFishing]

You don't understand what is being looked at. We're not checking if Goblins are Green and Hobgoblins are Orange.

We're checking whether the colour of Goblinoid Races in OotS matches that of Spiderman villains.

[lyric76]

No, group 1 isn't Goblins, because that's irrelevant, goblins are green. Hobgoblins are orange.

Group 1 is Goblinoid Races. Group 2 is Marvel Superheroes.

And lets just go with it since we seem to be hung up on the idea that we need more groups...

Keeping in line with a flawed question, lets suppose that you want to know if God intended to give men two eyes because he gave women two eyes.

Even with just ONE man and ONE woman, and both of them have two eyes. You can conclude that the answer is yes. The result won't be significant.

Let's say you have ONE man with 2 eyes and ONE woman with 1 eye, you can conclude that the answer is no, and the results will not be significant.

Drawing a conclusion is purely observational in statistics. If you can just go and ask someone for the answer then you don't need statistics do you?

[lyric76]

{Scrubbed}

[SadisticFishing]

Errr. what are you even arguing with? We don't need more groups, we need more goblinoid races before we can start pulling semi believable conclusions.

And sadly, there are no Spiderman villains named Bugbear, or Blue, or any of the other races...

So sadly, we'll never know if the TC is right D:

Though I'd assume Green comes from the general "goblins are green" idea, as seen in Warhammer and WarCraft, and Hobgoblins have always been yellow.

[lyric76]

Errr. what are you even arguing with? We don't need more groups, we need more goblinoid races before we can start pulling semi believable conclusions.

And sadly, there are no Spiderman villains named Bugbear, or Blue, or any of the other races...

So sadly, we'll never know if the TC is right D:

Though I'd assume Green comes from the general "goblins are green" idea, as seen in Warhammer and WarCraft, and Hobgoblins have always been yellow.

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to leave this thread and never look back. If you ever want to discuss stats again, please warn people that you really don't understand stats at all.

[Jayabalard]

Uhmmm... if you have one or two samples, then your sample size is one or two. Unless its a population of 4 you have far, far FAR too few samples.we've seen hundreds (or even thousands) of goblins and hobgoblins.

[SadisticFishing]

we've seen hundreds (or even thousands) of goblins and hobgoblins.

Irrelevant! They're not the things that matter!

What matters is Goblinoid RACES. Goblins are green, Hobgoblins are orange. Those our only two.. *words*. The number of each is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Random832]

Irrelevant! They're not the things that matter!

What matters is Goblinoid RACES. Goblins are green, Hobgoblins are orange. Those our only two.. *words*. The number of each is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Well - it would be relevant if Goblins being green were in dispute.

But it's not.