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View Full Version : When is sundering kosher for a DM? [3.5]



Zaq
2009-06-20, 01:20 PM
Okay, so, we all know why sundering is suboptimal for players. (Doesn't work against a lot of foes, gets geometrically if not exponentially harder as weapons become more and more magical, destroys your own loot, and so on.) That's not really a question here.

However, there are two sides to the game. What's good (or bad) for players might not be the same for the GM.

So, I ask you, Playgrounders, when (if ever) is it okay for a GM to employ sunder-heavy techniques against the players?

On the one hand, it makes a lot of sense thematically. If you have a hulking brute monster with passable intelligence (perhaps a minotaur?), it's going to realize that breaking his opponents' weapons is a good thing, making them a lot less dangerous (at least the melee ones). Particularly when the monsters get an advantage (size, strength, and so on), it just makes good tactical sense from their perspective to use this technique.

However, from the players' side, it's kind of a jerk move. It's hard for a player to think of their beloved weapon getting sundered as "well, I guess the ogre WOULD try to make me less dangerous this way..." instead of "ZOMG THE GM IS BREAKING MY STUFF!" Furthermore, who's more likely to get their stuff broken? The frontliners. The melee. The fighter-types. You know, the ones who really need it. Do we need to make life any harder for meleers than it already is? "Oh, yeah, you could barely keep up in usefulness with the caster anyway, and now that your +awesome sword is gone, well, sucks to be you."

So, there's a conundrum. This is a technique that a lot of monsters would try to use, in my mind, but it feels like it punishes players to actually do it.

So, under what circumstances is it acceptable (to a rational observer on both sides of the table, ideally) for monsters to start trying to break your stuff?

LibraryOgre
2009-06-20, 01:26 PM
Sunder wands. Sunder spell component pouches.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 01:28 PM
Sunder your fighter's weapon so you can reward him with a better weapon in the next room. WBL is maintained, and he gets an upgrade without having to sell the thing.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-20, 01:30 PM
It's fine if you are targetting things that don't cost much(though smart players will have half a dozen Holy Symbols because they don't cost much), or if you replace it immediately(The BBEG cleaves through your Flaming Sword with his +2 Adamantite Sword of Awesome).

Zaq
2009-06-20, 01:32 PM
Sunder wands. Sunder spell component pouches.

Which, again, has the weird all-or-nothing balance effect. Yeah, the wizzy can get another spell component pouch easily, but for this combat he's got a decent chance of being worthless. Which is, I suppose, a nice change from the usual "I RULE ASS" attitudes of wizards, but still, there are better ways to take a player down a peg than to just have them sit out a combat. (This of course also assumes that the wizard has only one spell component pouch, and that the hulking brute can hit him in the first place.)

Wands are arguably even worse than weapons in terms of sundering. They're really expensive, and they don't become more resilient as they become a bigger deal.

I accept what you're saying as a good counterpoint to my comment about how fighter-types lose the most to sunder-happy monsters, but I'd say it raises as many problems as it addresses.

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-20, 01:32 PM
Sundering is always kosher, because D&D isn't included in Hebrew dietary laws.

EDIT: It's halal too! Engorge yourselves!

Yora
2009-06-20, 01:36 PM
I think the game is most fun, if you have to fight in unfavorable situations.

- I think when it comes to sunder, the imporant thing is not to overdo it. When the fighter has his blade shatter in his hands, it can add a lot of tension to a scene. But I would try to add it as part of an encounter that is allready memorable by itself, and not while fighting some random guards. When the deathknight swings his mace and shatters the paladins sword to pieces, it can be a very great entrance for a villain. If every orc tries it, it gets just boring.
- And don't doo it too often. If it happens every third or fourth adventure, that's probably more than enough before it gets a costant annoyance.
- What becomes much more important the higher the PCs are in level, is to allow them to have their broken weapon repaired. As you can't just weld togther a magical balde that is shattered to pieces, you would need a really good weapon smith who knows a bit about magical sword and it probably will cost you a bit (10% of creation cost?). But finding one and having the weapon repaired can make for nice side adventures.
- If you know in advance, that some melee fighters will probably lose their main weapon during the adventure, make sure that they can get some kind of backup weapon. If it happened before in the campaign, many players may carry a secondary weapon just for that purpose. If the full plate fighter does only have a greatsword and a dagger, arrange it so, that he can find a temporary replacement after the weapon is broken. It does not have to be a magical greatsword, but a masterwork longsword or masterwork greatsword would do the job too for a while. It probably really depends a lot on the group and the campaign if this means that you should avoid monsters with damage reduction. :smallamused:

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 01:36 PM
Which, again, has the weird all-or-nothing balance effect. Yeah, the wizzy can get another spell component pouch easily, but for this combat he's got a decent chance of being worthless. Which is, I suppose, a nice change from the usual "I RULE ASS" attitudes of wizards, but still, there are better ways to take a player down a peg than to just have them sit out a combat. (This of course also assumes that the wizard has only one spell component pouch, and that the hulking brute can hit him in the first place.)

Wands are arguably even worse than weapons in terms of sundering. They're really expensive, and they don't become more resilient as they become a bigger deal.

I accept what you're saying as a good counterpoint to my comment about how fighter-types lose the most to sunder-happy monsters, but I'd say it raises as many problems as it addresses.
Not all spells have material components, or for clerics, require the holy symbol. Many, but not all.

quick_comment
2009-06-20, 01:38 PM
Sundering is fine as long as you replace the equipment soon.

What is not ever ok, is chained dispel magic + chained shatter

Dogmantra
2009-06-20, 01:38 PM
Sunder your fighter's weapon so you can reward him with a better weapon in the next room. WBL is maintained, and he gets an upgrade without having to sell the thing.

This is pretty much the only time I'd ever sunder. Using OotS as an example, the only time a weapon's been sundered there (Haley's Bow) there was a chance to get another one really soon.

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-20, 01:40 PM
This is pretty much the only time I'd ever sunder. Using OotS as an example, the only time a weapon's been sundered there (Haley's Bow) there was a chance to get another one really soon.

And Elan's rapier.

By speaking too loudly.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 01:44 PM
Yes, but Elan has never used that thing to any effect before Dashing Swordsman, anyways, so it doesn't matter.

Feel free to sunder your casters' weapons. They probably carry some cheapy ones for just in case, especially the Beguilers and the Clerics.

Dairun Cates
2009-06-20, 01:44 PM
And Elan's rapier.

By speaking too loudly.

You know, and Roy's sword, but that wasn't a big deal.

PinkysBrain
2009-06-20, 01:48 PM
Sure have sundering opponents ... have ranged opponents who use poison and focus fire on your wizard too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-20, 01:50 PM
Sure have sundering opponents ... have ranged opponents who use poison and focus fire on your wizard too.Wind Wall.

PinkysBrain
2009-06-20, 01:53 PM
Assuming you don't allow celerity (which unless you are running a ridiculously high powered game you really should not) one round of poisoned arrows can really cut down the chances of that windwall going up.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-20, 01:54 PM
That's what you get for advertising yourself as a wizard. Seriously, they act like normal old men for a reason. Sticking out makes you a target.

annoyinglizardv
2009-06-20, 01:54 PM
When the storyline benefits from it (and sometimes when the players are roll-playing instead of role-playing and the DM is fed up with this and wants to bring them down a notch :) )

Choco
2009-06-20, 01:56 PM
Forget sundering wands or component pouches, if you REALLY want to piss off a Wizard, sunder/disarm his spellbook :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-20, 01:58 PM
Assuming you don't allow celerity (which unless you are running a ridiculously high powered game you really should not) one round of poisoned arrows can really cut down the chances of that windwall going up.But the Wizard is far more likely to win Init than you. Meaning that at best you get a surprise round, which isn't nearly as useful.

Edit:
Forget sundering wands or component pouches, if you REALLY want to piss off a Wizard, sunder/disarm his spellbook Which does nothing for the current battle except waste an action. Yes, the Wizard is permanently nerfed, but that doesn't help you survive his retaliation. Plus, the book probably isn't exctly easy to find/target.

DSCrankshaw
2009-06-20, 01:58 PM
You know, and Roy's sword, but that wasn't a big deal.

Well, Roy did get a huge circumstance bonus for the rest of that fight.

But still, OotS has (so far) had 3 weapons destroyed: Roy's sword, Elan's rapier, and Haley's bow.

Mr.Moron
2009-06-20, 02:02 PM
Sunder your fighter's weapon so you can reward him with a better weapon in the next room. WBL is maintained, and he gets an upgrade without having to sell the thing.

Exactly. Destroy whatever whenever, so long as you balance it out with some extra treasure it's fine. I'd more cautious around an item if it has some kind of significance to the characters story of course. However so long as you use it such way that it serves as debuff (primary weapon destroyed, forced to use inferior secondary weapon) rather than a permanent wealth loss you're fine.

Dogmantra
2009-06-20, 02:17 PM
You know, and Roy's sword, but that wasn't a big deal.

Well he was a fighter, so he wasn't going to contribute usefully anyway :smallwink:

Besides, there were more swords in the loot they got less than five minutes after that battle.

Thrawn183
2009-06-20, 02:55 PM
I think it really depends on how hard you make it to find new magic weapons. Can you just walk into town to get a new one, if you can afford it or roleplay out calling in some favors or something, or is it going to take you 2 sessions of being crap for usefulness before you can get a new one?

Deepblue706
2009-06-20, 03:23 PM
Sundering is always fine. PCs shouldn't feel entitled to have anything, apart the resources appropriate for the next challenge; which does not inherently include their favorite sword or magic items, etc.

LibraryOgre
2009-06-20, 03:29 PM
Wind Wall.

Wind Wall does very little against Eldritch Spear and Poisonous Blast.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-20, 03:33 PM
Wind Wall.

If my archer's move actions can eat the enemy wizard's standard actions, I consider that a blinding success.

Prophaniti
2009-06-20, 03:35 PM
I had a titan do his standard sunder on one of my players once. Got some good rolls and his magic shield is almost broken. You don't even need to actually successfully sunder anything, just the look on the player's face at the mere possibility is enough for me. Delicious.

quick_comment
2009-06-20, 05:09 PM
Another time I will feel its ok to go sunder happy is when the players are asking for it.

Ie, they just have a nonmagical sword, with persisted GMW and stuff cast on it.

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 05:29 PM
Wind Wall.

So he uses up a spell slot and an action to protect his own hide from Weako the Archer. Fine with me.


Another time I will feel its ok to go sunder happy is when the players are asking for it.

Ie, they just have a nonmagical sword, with persisted GMW and stuff cast on it.

Yeah. According to most, you should invest in a cleric and pearls of power, and put the saved gold into other items. In that case, expect routine sunderings.

Mojo_Rat
2009-06-20, 05:39 PM
Generally speaking it should always be okay for NPC to sunder anything and everything that it is appropriate for them to do so. The goal of bad guys isnt to coddle players if the Evil warrior has sunder and there is say an Archer in the Party the first thing the Evil warrior should try to do is sunder the archer.

However that said this is really a style of play that should be consistant throughout the campaign (From the beginning basically) starting it later on just creates a sudden shift in playstyle.


But eally it says something about the game when Players take getting bullrushed off of a cliff that will likely kill them less personally than their characters sword being cut in half.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-20, 05:45 PM
That's what you get for advertising yourself as a wizard. Seriously, they act like normal old men for a reason. Sticking out makes you a target.

Or play a beautiful blond elven woman, who wears either traveler's or explorer's clothes, and has a donkey with her. Who would ever suspect someone like THAT of being the party wizard? Seems more Rangerish, no?

Indeed.
2009-06-20, 05:50 PM
Or play a beautiful blond elven woman, who wears either traveler's or explorer's clothes, and has a donkey with her. Who would ever suspect someone like THAT of being the party wizard? Seems more Rangerish, no?

In a BoEF heavy game, yes.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 05:51 PM
Or play a beautiful blond elven woman, who wears either traveler's or explorer's clothes, and has a donkey with her. Who would ever suspect someone like THAT of being the party wizard? Seems more Rangerish, no?
Beautiful? That's a Sorceress. Blast her!

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 05:52 PM
Or play a beautiful blond elven woman, who wears either traveler's or explorer's clothes, and has a donkey with her. Who would ever suspect someone like THAT of being the party wizard? Seems more Rangerish, no?

When she begins muttering and waving her hands and there are now 1d4+ CL/3 imagesof her, she's going to start taking some damage.

Besides, every encounter worth its CR knows that a group of four humanoids with no business in their dungeon will have at least one caster, and that you should ready an action to shoot holes in it as soon as it starts making casty noises.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-20, 05:55 PM
Well yes, I'm just saying that it makes the character less likely identified as the caster -up front-.

Besides, if you also have a druid in your group, who has a higher dex, the druid might wind up going first, thus being targeted by the ready actions.

Talic
2009-06-20, 05:58 PM
Arcane thesis + Still spell + silent spell, and be a spoiled rich kid, who hired three grizzled veterans to take him on safari.

EDIT: And if the druid goes first, the fact that natural spell just means it sounds like growls, rather than spells, might make it a bit harder.

Fitz10019
2009-06-20, 06:02 PM
Sometimes I have Austin Power's voice in my head, complaining, "Who sunders a boot? I mean, honestly."

I... I thought maybe I could safely confess that in this thread.

Lert, A.
2009-06-20, 06:35 PM
Mmm...

Tuesdays? :smallredface:

AvatarZero
2009-06-20, 06:39 PM
Is sundering even realistic? Maybe you could break a sword with another sword if it was being held in a vice, but surely breaking something that hard while it's being held by someone else would require their cooperation. They could just relax their wrist (not their grip) and let the force of your blow roll over the sword. As ever, reality in this situation bows to magic or adamantine. Or lightsabers.

Or if you want to go in the rules-before-reason direction, dropping a weapon that's about to be sundered is a free action. If that doesn't work, drop prone onto your sword as another free action.

Yeah, I know you can't perform free actions on another character's turn with the exception of talking, but how many characters wouldn't shield their sword with their hitpoints if given the option. Sundering is basically the same sort of maneuvre as a Save-or-Die spell, in that one bad roll can severely screw over player and character without any wearing down of your defenses first. It feels cheap where it wants to feel tense and dangerous.

I think that unless you want to change the way the game works, ie. make specific weapons less important or make sundered items easier to recover from/less crippling then sundering probably isn't worth the fuss. Putting a new sword in the next room isn't a subtle solution, but it works.

What about a system wherein any weapon that takes damage above it's sunder threshold has it's quality drop by one increment until repaired? (ie. +2, +1, masterwork, ordinary, scrap.)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering

An ordinary quality mace can take 30 damage, and then it breaks.
A masterwork greatsword can take 20 damage, and then becomes an ordinary greatsword until you can repair it.
If a +3 dagger takes 15 damage from a single hit it becomes a +2 dagger until you can repair it. (hardness+HP+hardness from +3 enhancement = 15)

Beware of only counting hardness once for this variant on sundering. If you do, you can turn that +3 dagger to scrap with an adamantine weapon and a total of 12 damage.

Beware also of making the cost to repair your temporarily +2 dagger equal to the cost of upgrading a +2 dagger to +3. (10000gp. No one wants to pay that to use a weapon they already own.)

I made that up on the spot. I'm very proud. Tell me what you think!

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-20, 06:50 PM
So, I ask you, Playgrounders, when (if ever) is it okay for a GM to employ sunder-heavy techniques against the players?


1) Any time the characters are below 5th level and aren't likely to have magical weapons

2) Holy symbols and spell pouches are always fair game.

3) Once, mayby twice in a campaign after that. Especially if the foe is using the same type of weapon as the PC (so he can loot it off his body)

Mr.Moron
2009-06-20, 06:57 PM
2) Holy symbols and spell pouches are always fair game.


They're so cheap though, isn't it kind of pointless? Who wouldn't be carrying multiple redundant copies of both? Especially holy symbols, which can just be painted directly on armor. Heck I don't know if there are specifically rules for it somewhere, but you could probably just tattoo them right on your body.

Leon
2009-06-20, 07:13 PM
I play a Cleric with a Tattooed Symbol in a 2e Game

Has been very useful to have in a number of situations - and unless you know that its there it other looks like an arm wound as its covered by bandages most of the time

Curmudgeon
2009-06-20, 07:17 PM
Just have the enemies assume they're going to win, so they'll only sunder the inexpensive stuff. They want the PCs' loot!

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 07:21 PM
Sundering a holy symbol or spell components pouch is only a standard action, and a very easy check to make. It's a perfectly valid way for mooks to make themselves threatening in combat, by sucking up the casters' actions.

Mr.Moron
2009-06-20, 07:24 PM
Sundering a holy symbol or spell components pouch is only a standard action, and a very easy check to make. It's a perfectly valid way for mooks to make themselves threatening in combat, by sucking up the casters' actions.

What action? I'm wearing like.. 20 or so holy symobols all over me. Looking something like this guy (http://www.mtgstaples.com/mediac/450_0/media/DIR_39501/DIR_44601/W_10.jpg). It's effective and fairly badass. You can easily fit a couple a spell comp pouches on your belt. Frankly it's something any caster with half a brain would do in-game, as he would know how vital that is to him. He wouldn't want to risk being without just in case something came loose (much less somebody actively trying to remove them).

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 07:39 PM
What action? I'm wearing like.. 20 or so holy symobols all over me. Looking something like this guy (http://www.mtgstaples.com/mediac/450_0/media/DIR_39501/DIR_44601/W_10.jpg). It's effective and fairly badass.

So you lose 4 to 8 a round. Then you have none. If you want to let them all flap in the breeze, go for it. They also make nice targets for thieves. Be careful about ostentatiously displaying wealth.


You can easily fit a couple a spell comp pouches on your belt. Frankly it's something any caster with half a brain would do in-game, as he would know how vital that is to him. He wouldn't want to risk being without just in case something came loose (much less somebody actively trying to remove them).

Even with 10 strength, 3 spell component pouches is 1/5 of your light load. Combined with clothes and an HHH, you are dangerously close to the carrying limit. If you are a small race, or have less strength (5 or 6 is usually the most common on char op int casters), then you're already hitting encumberance, and that's without any 5 lb rods, scroll cases, weapons, or MW tools. And a single 1st level spell is guaranteed to leave you stuck in one spot. Even with Fly, 40 feet per round is slower than most other things with fly speeds.

Indon
2009-06-20, 07:53 PM
I'd say, if you want to seriously use sundering in a campaign, cobble together a houserule for repairing broken magic items. 5% or 10% of cost sounds good.

Edit: And a craft roll, of course.

Kyouhen
2009-06-20, 07:58 PM
Personally I'd make sundering a valid strategy for name-brand enemies who are of the same general role as what they're trying to sunder. Guards and your average orc aren't likely to bother sundering as you've likely got several of them attacking the PCs. The orc warlord, on the other hand, would be much quicker to cripple their fighting abilities. That warlord is also more likely to break a fighter's sword and shield than he is a wizard's spell component pouch, just on the grounds that he knows combat better than he knows spells. Even if he knew losing the pouch would cripple the wizard, how likely is he to get close enough for a shot without taking out the fighter's weapons first?

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 08:01 PM
I'd say the enemy mage's first move being "Scorching Ray, targeting the wizard's component pouch" is perfectly reasonable for his INT and knowledge.

Random832
2009-06-20, 08:07 PM
What about multiple pouches that each only contain a fraction of your 2 lbs of spell components, but each require a separate sunder roll to target?

Furthermore - a sundered spell component pouch should have its contents spilled, not ruined.

Scorching ray targeted on the spell component pouch - sundering rules don't apply to spells... so, say it has a tiny AC with the wearer's Dex bonus (if it misses by less than the tiny AC bonus, it hits the wearer instead). Most material components are flammable, but some arcane foci aren't.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 08:10 PM
What about multiple pouches that each only contain a fraction of your 2 lbs of spell components, but each require a separate sunder roll to target?

Furthermore - a sundered spell component pouch should have its contents spilled, not ruined.
Yeah, but then you have to grope at the ground for your live spiders (that you need to cast Web) which are going to be running away and so forth.

Random832
2009-06-20, 08:16 PM
Yeah, but then you have to grope at the ground for your live spiders (that you need to cast Web) which are going to be running away and so forth.

say, retrieving a spell component that's on the ground is a move action ("pick up an item" from the table) - this effectively turns standard action spells into full-round actions, and full-round spells take two rounds (with room for another standard action). Spell components that can move under their own power will have left the area within a few rounds.

Maybe some mechanic for a chance that there will be a few components still in the remains of the pouch?

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 08:17 PM
Personally I'd make sundering a valid strategy for name-brand enemies who are of the same general role as what they're trying to sunder. Guards and your average orc aren't likely to bother sundering as you've likely got several of them attacking the PCs. The orc warlord, on the other hand, would be much quicker to cripple their fighting abilities. That warlord is also more likely to break a fighter's sword and shield than he is a wizard's spell component pouch, just on the grounds that he knows combat better than he knows spells. Even if he knew losing the pouch would cripple the wizard, how likely is he to get close enough for a shot without taking out the fighter's weapons first?

OTOH, I would expect guards who want to live to fight smartly, targeting obvious weaknesses, retreating to strong points, etc. If a leader is present, I would definitely expect the mooks to be instructed to target spell component pouches and so forth. I usually assume humanoids with a BAB of 3 and non-negative mental scores to know enough about general combat, either being explicitly told by their commanders, or having experienced it themselves, to do obviously beneficial things.


say, retrieving a spell component that's on the ground is a move action ("pick up an item" from the table) - this effectively turns standard action spells into full-round actions, and full-round spells take two rounds (with room for another standard action). Spell components that can move under their own power will have left the area within a few rounds.

Maybe some mechanic for a chance that there will be a few components still in the remains of the pouch?

Why bother? It would slow the game down.
Besides, when your +2 flaming pointy stick gets broken, there's no check to see if it's still +2 or flaming, it's now just a non-magical, improvised weapon.

rampaging-poet
2009-06-20, 08:38 PM
I'd say, if you want to seriously use sundering in a campaign, cobble together a houserule for repairing broken magic items. 5% or 10% of cost sounds good.

Edit: And a craft roll, of course.

There is a rule for repairing magic items. The feats Craft Magic Arms and Armour and Craft Wondrous item both state you can repair a broken item for half the cost it would take to build it in the first place.

-

As for DMs sundering, they should only do so in meaningful encounters. It's fine for the crazy undead warrior, mighty demon, or ancient dragon to sunder the fighter's ancestral blade, but the orc hordes should probably stay away from that tactic.

The best time to sunder a weapon (and this can only be done once per campaign, really) is when you immediately send them on a (short) quest to repair and improve it. Recovering a hunk of starmetal so that you can get your broken generic magic sword turned into a working Ultra-Blade is awesome. Carry a portable hole full of weapons because they break every five minutes? Not so much.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-20, 10:04 PM
See, on this note, I'd always thought something to denote an epic battle would be for the PC to charge in and smack the bad guy and score a direct hit...only to realize that his sword was to weak to penetrate the BBEG's armor, and the weapon shatters. But I doubt there are mechanics for this.

I know that in games like Living Greyhawk, Sundering was really horrible, because it could wreck a character.

Personally, I'm really bad at learning Special Moves (TM). Like, I don't even know how all the 3.5 Combat Actions (TM) work, or even how many there are. Like...Charge, Grapple, Sunder. I know there are others, but...and then learning the mechanics...I dunno. I'm just slow. :P

I personally DON'T think that a DM should necesarily instantly replace said broken item, though (except in the example at the beginning of the post, which should be when the PC runs the hell away in order to search for The Perfect Weapon (TM).) I mean, say the PCs are in a semi-important fight, like a small boss-type. I don't think the DM should be like "Oh, the boss sunders your weapon. ::Fight happens:: Oh hey look, a +1 Badass Sword!" I think it could be a powerful tool for the DM, to perhaps...well I wouldn't say "railroad" but perhaps "guide" the PCs into a...non-stabbity route.

tyckspoon
2009-06-20, 10:40 PM
As for DMs sundering, they should only do so in meaningful encounters. It's fine for the crazy undead warrior, mighty demon, or ancient dragon to sunder the fighter's ancestral blade, but the orc hordes should probably stay away from that tactic.


The orc hordes probably don't have any real chance of sundering a half-way decent weapon or armor piece anyway, thanks to the bonus hardness and HP from magical plusses (as well as the chance that either or both are made of something tougher than normal steel to start with.)

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-21, 12:40 AM
They're so cheap though, isn't it kind of pointless? Who wouldn't be carrying multiple redundant copies of both? Especially holy symbols, which can just be painted directly on armor. Heck I don't know if there are specifically rules for it somewhere, but you could probably just tattoo them right on your body.

I've been playing for a long time and i've never had to use the backup, although my characters have specified carrying specific material components in their pouches or boots (and in once case, stomach)

Most players don't think to do this untill AFTER the dm does it to them, so its a one trick pony. Unless the players are dumb. In which case they deserve to be beaten for not learning from their mistakes

Friv
2009-06-21, 01:37 AM
I personally DON'T think that a DM should necesarily instantly replace said broken item, though (except in the example at the beginning of the post, which should be when the PC runs the hell away in order to search for The Perfect Weapon (TM).) I mean, say the PCs are in a semi-important fight, like a small boss-type. I don't think the DM should be like "Oh, the boss sunders your weapon. ::Fight happens:: Oh hey look, a +1 Badass Sword!" I think it could be a powerful tool for the DM, to perhaps...well I wouldn't say "railroad" but perhaps "guide" the PCs into a...non-stabbity route.

Well, if the boss is using a better magic weapon, it can still work, especially if you're keeping Sunder as an uncommon tactic (which it probably is - let's face it, most soldiers, orcs and such aren't trained to fight people who can take ten sword hits to the face, because the ones who meet people like that die. If they hit, they want to do damage so as not to die next action, not force you to your backup weapon).

BOSS: "Nice sword." *IMPROVED SUNDER!* "Mine's better."

*END OF THE FIGHT, AS THE HEROES STAND OVER THEIR FALLEN ENEMY*

Hero: You took my sword. *YOINK* Now I'm taking yours.

SSGoW
2009-06-21, 06:11 AM
Is sundering even realistic? Maybe you could break a sword with another sword if it was being held in a vice, but surely breaking something that hard while it's being held by someone else would require their cooperation. They could just relax their wrist (not their grip) and let the force of your blow roll over the sword. As ever, reality in this situation bows to magic or adamantine. Or lightsabers.

Or if you want to go in the rules-before-reason direction, dropping a weapon that's about to be sundered is a free action. If that doesn't work, drop prone onto your sword as another free action.

Yeah, I know you can't perform free actions on another character's turn with the exception of talking, but how many characters wouldn't shield their sword with their hitpoints if given the option. Sundering is basically the same sort of maneuvre as a Save-or-Die spell, in that one bad roll can severely screw over player and character without any wearing down of your defenses first. It feels cheap where it wants to feel tense and dangerous.

I think that unless you want to change the way the game works, ie. make specific weapons less important or make sundered items easier to recover from/less crippling then sundering probably isn't worth the fuss. Putting a new sword in the next room isn't a subtle solution, but it works.

What about a system wherein any weapon that takes damage above it's sunder threshold has it's quality drop by one increment until repaired? (ie. +2, +1, masterwork, ordinary, scrap.)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering

An ordinary quality mace can take 30 damage, and then it breaks.
A masterwork greatsword can take 20 damage, and then becomes an ordinary greatsword until you can repair it.
If a +3 dagger takes 15 damage from a single hit it becomes a +2 dagger until you can repair it. (hardness+HP+hardness from +3 enhancement = 15)

Beware of only counting hardness once for this variant on sundering. If you do, you can turn that +3 dagger to scrap with an adamantine weapon and a total of 12 damage.

Beware also of making the cost to repair your temporarily +2 dagger equal to the cost of upgrading a +2 dagger to +3. (10000gp. No one wants to pay that to use a weapon they already own.)

I made that up on the spot. I'm very proud. Tell me what you think!

actually when two swords hit in the real world (>.>) there is always the chance of the weaker one breaking (like baseball bat versus wooden cane) and if swords are not held right then the possibility goes up. also someone wont relax their wrist instantly specially if they are trying to parry a blow.

erikun
2009-06-21, 09:21 AM
Sundering is always kosher, because D&D isn't included in Hebrew dietary laws.

EDIT: It's halal too! Engorge yourselves!
Ah, glad I wasn't the only one who thought this by looking at the title.

Also, this thread has justified every wizard with Enshew Materials I have ever made. :smallbiggrin: Thanks, guys.

quick_comment
2009-06-21, 11:31 AM
actually when two swords hit in the real world (>.>) there is always the chance of the weaker one breaking (like baseball bat versus wooden cane) and if swords are not held right then the possibility goes up. also someone wont relax their wrist instantly specially if they are trying to parry a blow.

Basically all swords the PCs have are not weak. Even at level 1, most fighters are running around with masterwork (that is, ultra high quality) swords.


However, keep in mind that starting around level 5, the character's strength becomes superhuman.

Lamech
2009-06-21, 11:39 AM
actually when two swords hit in the real world (>.>) there is always the chance of the weaker one breaking (like baseball bat versus wooden cane) and if swords are not held right then the possibility goes up. also someone wont relax their wrist instantly specially if they are trying to parry a blow.Except they are not trying to parry the blow. They are trying to not have their sword break.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-21, 11:40 AM
"Someone won't relax their wrist". That's the important part of the sentence. "especially if they're trying to parry a blow" is just extraneous detail, added in by a comma.

Jane_Smith
2009-06-21, 11:56 AM
I keep hearing "Sundered Spell Pouchs".

To all of you who aim for that... I TAKE ESCHEW MARTIALS BISHS!:smalltongue: But, anyway, their is a nice feat to cast spells silent and stilled nearly without increasing spell level called Subliminal Spellcasting. Enemys have to make a perception check to even notice you casting. Combined with the fact most of my wizards look like rogues;

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2320/24112.jpg

I always end up surprising people. ^.- Seriously, putting a few ranks in bluff, stealth, sleight of hand, whatever, still spell, silent spell, subliminal casting, parlor tricks (makes it harder to identify your spells by adding a touch of illusion magic to make them look different/act different. Like a invisible shield/mage armor, or several fire bolts being actually 1 fireball), not to mention having a -few- illusion spells no matter your specialization like invisibility or disguise self... it really does save your ass more often then not.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-21, 12:01 PM
Basically all swords the PCs have are not weak. Even at level 1, most fighters are running around with masterwork (that is, ultra high quality) swords.

Even the best swords will shatter and break on occasion. (usually when hitting an opponent in armor, not necessarily from a purposeful attempt to sunder the weapon)

That's the reason we have so few of them or suits of armor that have ever been used in actual combat. Most of them got used until they broke

JellyPooga
2009-06-21, 01:07 PM
Sundering should be a rare occurence; when the big bad guy wants to show how powerful he is without losing his audience, for example. Disarming, on the other hand, largely achieves the same effect in the short term (i.e. the PC loses his weapon for the fight...well at least until he picks it up), but doesn't have to deal with the long term detriment of the PC's raging at you for being a douche (and doesn't require bizzaro wealth replacement metagaming).