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Tak
2009-06-20, 02:20 PM
Hello everyone one. I am a new DM and have a question. I am not sure I read it correctly in the books so I will do my best. Also, english isn't my main language, I'm terribly sorry.

In the 3.5 edition, if a spell caster use a meta-magic feat on a spell and it put the spell one lvel higher than the spoells he can cast. If he have a high enough ability score, can he still use that enhanced spell?

Let's say a mage level 5 with 18 Int using a meta magic feat adding 3 level on a 1st level spell (thus making it a 4th level one), would it be able to cast it? (since at 18 int he get a 4th level spell bonus)

thank you!

Zaq
2009-06-20, 02:22 PM
In short, no. You have to have a spell slot of the appropriate level available before you can cast a metamagic spell of that level.

(There are exceptions, but you want rules, not exceptions.)

Eldariel
2009-06-20, 02:27 PM
Let's say a mage level 5 with 18 Int using a meta magic feat adding 3 level on a 1st level spell (thus making it a 4th level one), would it be able to cast it? (since at 18 int he get a 4th level spell bonus)

You cannot gain bonus slots in levels higher than what you can cast. You'd need to be level 7 to gain 4th level bonus slots, because that's when you gain your normal 4th level slots.

Metamagicked spells take spell slots just as normal spells do; a level 5 Wizard can prepare 1st level Empowered spells in 3rd level slots (so he could either prepare Empowered Magic Missile, or standard Fireball, in those slots - he could also cast Extended Glitterdust instead of non-metamagicked Stinking Cloud on level 3).

Tak
2009-06-20, 02:29 PM
Ah a thousand thank you! But just for curiosity, what are the exceptions?

Zaq
2009-06-20, 02:32 PM
There are a lot of feats and prestige class abilities out there that, one way or another, reduce metamagic costs.

The rule still applies that you have to have a 4th level spell slot before you can cast a spell with an effective (after metamagic) level of 4. But you can change it so that the spell that would have been 4th level is not quite so high.

It's generally regarded as very powerful and the gateway to abuse, so I don't recommend exploring it unless you're running a very high-powered game.

Eldariel
2009-06-20, 02:34 PM
Ah a thousand thank you! But just for curiosity, what are the exceptions?

I think he was referring to feats and class features that allow reducing the level costs of Metamagic feats. This would allow you to prepare those spells in lower level slots than normal. For example, if you had "Practical Metamagic"-feat for Maximize Spell (it's a feat from Races of the Dragon; reduces the cost of applying one specific metamagic feats to your spells by 1 level to a minimum of 1-level increase), you could apply it for a mere 2-level increase, meaning a Maximized Magic Missile would require a level 3 slot, instead of the normal level 4.

Worth noting that there's no way to gain spell slots of higher levels than what your classes allow (although some Kobold-only things increase your casting in a class over your actual class level; a level 6 Kobold can have level 10 Sorcerer casting tops with Loredrake [Dragons of Eberron], Greater Draconic Rite of Passage [Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement] & White Dragonspawn [Dragonlance Something] - all of them are pretty limited and more or less questionable, except for Greater Draconic Rite of Passage).

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Tak
2009-06-20, 03:32 PM
Ah perfect. About dragons, a player was saying something about using that feat :
''DRAGON WILD SHAPE [GENERAL]
You can take the form of a dragon.
Prerequisites: Wis 19, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks,
wild shape ability.
Benefit: You can use your wild shape ability to change
into a Small or Medium dragon. You gain all the extraordinary
and supernatural abilities of the dragon whose
form you take, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting
powers.''

coming from the draconimicon. Can he turn in any one regardless of alignement?

Yora
2009-06-20, 03:37 PM
Yes.

Usual alignment of the assumed form is never a factor for shapechanging.

Keld Denar
2009-06-20, 03:38 PM
If it doesn't specifically make note of abiding by alignment restrictions, then no. He is still bound by HD restrictions, as per normal with Wildshape.

Quietus
2009-06-20, 03:38 PM
Ah perfect. About dragons, a player was saying something about using that feat :
''DRAGON WILD SHAPE [GENERAL]
You can take the form of a dragon.
Prerequisites: Wis 19, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks,
wild shape ability.
Benefit: You can use your wild shape ability to change
into a Small or Medium dragon. You gain all the extraordinary
and supernatural abilities of the dragon whose
form you take, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting
powers.''

coming from the draconimicon. Can he turn in any one regardless of alignement?

Yup.

PostTooShort

Tak
2009-06-20, 03:38 PM
Would it unbalance the game? It seems pretty strong to becaume a medium sized dragon.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-20, 03:41 PM
At twelfth level, you had ought to be strong.
Wild Shape is just so much cheese if played powerfully that I've never even looked into the thing.

Ninetail
2009-06-20, 03:46 PM
Would it unbalance the game? It seems pretty strong to becaume a medium sized dragon.

You're asking the wrong question.

The game is already unbalanced. Druids are one of the most powerful classes. The ability to take on a small or medium dragon shape doesn't actually unbalance them much more, because they're so powerful to begin with. It's a pretty decent feat, but it doesn't add a whole lot to them.

It's sort of like pouring two liters of water into a one-liter bottle and then asking, "Won't the bottle overflow if I add half a cup of water to it?" Yes, but it's a bit late to be worrying about that.

Tak
2009-06-20, 03:48 PM
Ah thank you. Didn't know about druids being that powerfull. that will be the first game will the D&d rules and world.

Eldariel
2009-06-20, 03:55 PM
Ah perfect. About dragons, a player was saying something about using that feat :
''DRAGON WILD SHAPE [GENERAL]
You can take the form of a dragon.
Prerequisites: Wis 19, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks,
wild shape ability.
Benefit: You can use your wild shape ability to change
into a Small or Medium dragon. You gain all the extraordinary
and supernatural abilities of the dragon whose
form you take, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting
powers.''

coming from the draconimicon. Can he turn in any one regardless of alignement?

The only limitations of any kinds of shapechanging abilities are:
-Type
-Size
-Subject's HD
-Ability's Caster Level/Effective Level

1. Type: Most type changing abilities are limited to a certain bunch of types. This allows you to turn into a Dragon, for example. Normal Wildshape gives you Animal and later Plant, while Polymorph-spell gives you a slew of types and your own base type but omits e.g. Outsider (which is why being base Outsider when using the spell is incredible).

2. Size: Again obvious, Polymorph-line generally restricts you to sizes 1 larger and 1 smaller than your natural size, while Wild Shape starts with Medium & Small forms and uncovers few more as you level-up; Dragon Wild Shape is limited to Small and Medium as is obvious.

3. Subject's HD: You can never change a creature into a form that has more HD than the creature in its normal form. So, for example, a level 10 character can only change/be changed into creatures that are listed to have 10 or less HD in Monster Manual.

4. Ability's Caster Level/Effective Level: Same as above, except this applies to the shapechanging effect used instead; a multiclassed level 10 Druid/level 10 Wizard can only Wildshape into forms with 10 or less HD even though he himself has 20 HD (Druid 20, on the other hand, could assume forms of up to 20 HD). He can also only (normally) cast Polymorph on Caster Level 10, which limits him to 10 HD or lower forms from the spell. Note that Polymorph-like spells are generally capped; Alter Self cannot be used to change into forms with more than 5 HD, Polymorph can't assume forms with more than 15 HD and Shapechange is capped at 25 HD.


Few other things to know of changing shape:
-You can only change to a standard creature of available types (that is, one with stats listed in Monster Manual). This means, you cannot assume any forms that have class levels, advanced HD (Monster Manual lists advancement for creatures, but every advanced monster is "special"; only ones with stats listed in Monster Manual are a fair game), better Str/Dex/Con than a normal creature of that type (the ones listed in MM are stats of a "normal" creature of given type; heroic creatures of any type tend to have better stats and the creatures can advance stats by levels) or a Template added to it (so no Half-Dragon Orcs for you even if you could change into a Dragon-typed creature; Half-Dragon is a template and thus you can never change into a Half-Dragon).
-You never lose any Hit Dice or class levels as a consequence of a change; this means, you'll usually have more HD than the creature you're changing into, but you'll use your own HD/class levels for any relevant effects (for example, special ability save DC is based on Hit Dice; you'll use your own Hit Dice if you gain such abilities [say Trample] as a consequence of shapechange).
-Creatures with abilities allowing them to change shape generally can take feats that they don't qualify for in their normal forms (such as many Monster-feats in Monster Manual) and benefit of those feats in their Wildshape form. For example, a normal Humanoid doesn't qualify for Multiattack, but a Druid could pick the feat and only gain use of it while Wildshaping.

Tak
2009-06-20, 04:06 PM
The only limitations of any kinds of shapechanging abilities are:
-Type
-Size
-Subject's HD
-Ability's Caster Level/Effective Level

1. Type: Most type changing abilities are limited to a certain bunch of types. This allows you to turn into a Dragon, for example. Normal Wildshape gives you Animal and later Plant, while Polymorph-spell gives you a slew of types and your own base type but omits e.g. Outsider (which is why being base Outsider when using the spell is incredible).

2. Size: Again obvious, Polymorph-line generally restricts you to sizes 1 larger and 1 smaller than your natural size, while Wild Shape starts with Medium & Small forms and uncovers few more as you level-up; Dragon Wild Shape is limited to Small and Medium as is obvious.

3. Subject's HD: You can never change a creature into a form that has more HD than the creature in its normal form. So, for example, a level 10 character can only change/be changed into creatures that are listed to have 10 or less HD in Monster Manual.

4. Ability's Caster Level/Effective Level: Same as above, except this applies to the shapechanging effect used instead; a multiclassed level 10 Druid/level 10 Wizard can only Wildshape into forms with 10 or less HD even though he himself has 20 HD (Druid 20, on the other hand, could assume forms of up to 20 HD). He can also only (normally) cast Polymorph on Caster Level 10, which limits him to 10 HD or lower forms from the spell. Note that Polymorph-like spells are generally capped; Alter Self cannot be used to change into forms with more than 5 HD, Polymorph can't assume forms with more than 15 HD and Shapechange is capped at 25 HD.


Few other things to know of changing shape:
-You can only change to a standard creature of available types (that is, one with stats listed in Monster Manual). This means, you cannot assume any forms that have class levels, advanced HD (Monster Manual lists advancement for creatures, but every advanced monster is "special"; only ones with stats listed in Monster Manual are a fair game), better Str/Dex/Con than a normal creature of that type (the ones listed in MM are stats of a "normal" creature of given type; heroic creatures of any type tend to have better stats and the creatures can advance stats by levels) or a Template added to it (so no Half-Dragon Orcs for you even if you could change into a Dragon-typed creature; Half-Dragon is a template and thus you can never change into a Half-Dragon).
-You never lose any Hit Dice or class levels as a consequence of a change; this means, you'll usually have more HD than the creature you're changing into, but you'll use your own HD/class levels for any relevant effects (for example, special ability save DC is based on Hit Dice; you'll use your own Hit Dice if you gain such abilities [say Trample] as a consequence of shapechange).
-Creatures with abilities allowing them to change shape generally can take feats that they don't qualify for in their normal forms (such as many Monster-feats in Monster Manual) and benefit of those feats in their Wildshape form. For example, a normal Humanoid doesn't qualify for Multiattack, but a Druid could pick the feat and only gain use of it while Wildshaping.

O wow, that's prety much answer anything I needed!

Now for another character... He would like to use the book of nine sword and eventualy get a Legacy weapon. After reading again and again, I still can't find the level requirement for each Legacy ritual.
In exemple: the Faithful Avenger (Devoted spirit)
Awakening: Feat Granted: Least Legacy (Faithful Avenger)
What is that and when can he obtain the second one?
Nurturing: Feat Granted: Lesser Legacy

Keld Denar
2009-06-20, 04:11 PM
Eldariel, don't forget that size changes never stack. For example, you can't cast Enlarge Person on yourself to become large (+1 size), and then use Polymorph (1 up or down) to become Huge (+2 size). Likewise, you couldn't Wildshape into an large animal, and then use Animal Growth to make yourself Huge (which doesn't work at all with the Wildshape errata anyway, since your Type doesn't change).

Tak
2009-06-20, 04:14 PM
Eldariel, don't forget that size changes never stack. For example, you can't cast Enlarge Person on yourself to become large (+1 size), and then use Polymorph (1 up or down) to become Huge (+2 size). Likewise, you couldn't Wildshape into an large animal, and then use Animal Growth to make yourself Huge (which doesn't work at all with the Wildshape errata anyway, since your Type doesn't change).

Haha thank you, players were talking about that thing right about now.

Now for another character... He would like to use the book of nine sword and eventualy get a Legacy weapon. After reading again and again, I still can't find the level requirement for each Legacy ritual.
In exemple: the Faithful Avenger (Devoted spirit)
Awakening: Feat Granted: Least Legacy (Faithful Avenger)
What is that and when can he obtain the second one?
Nurturing: Feat Granted: Lesser Legacy

Eldariel
2009-06-20, 06:55 PM
Legacy Weapons have their own book "Weapons of Legacy". However, some adventures and auxillary books use them. The basic gist of Legacy Weapons:

You need to perform "Rites" to unlock the power of the weapon. For example, you acquire the Faithful Avenger as a +1 Cold Iron Falchion. The DCs listed in the History-chapter tell you what Knowledge-checks a person needs to pass to know of the said ritual and piece of history.

Once you have acquired the weapon, you need to perform "Ritual of Awakening" to gain access to its abilities. It involves a cost (1500gp) and what you need to do to accomplish the Ritual. Once you have completed the ritual, you'll gain feat "Least Legacy: Faithful Avenger", which activates the least Legacy-powers of the weapon. This basically means, provided your character level is high enough, you suffer the penalties listed for a character of your level, and the Legacy Item has abilities listed for a character of your level; basically, it taps into your lifeforce to empower itself.

The levels you gain with each feat go as follows:
Least Legacy: 5th - 10th
Lesser Legacy: 11th - 16th
Greater Legacy: 17th - 20th

If you have the Faithful Avenger and are level 15, but have only performed the Least Legacy, you'll gain abilities and penalties listed for a level 10 character. If you're level 9 and have performed Lesser Legacy, you'll gain abilities as appropriate to level 9 character, but will keep getting new abilities as you level up all the way up to level 16. To gain the level 17 abilities, you'd need to pass the Greater Legacy Ritual.


They're basically "artifact"-like weapons that, instead of having massive magical potential themselves, draw upon their wielder for power (making them fair for lower level characters). Most of the premade ones are pretty weak, but there's room for making rather strong ones yourself, and the nine swords for example aren't entirely useless, although the costs (especially the penalties; the rituals themselves are quite cheap - of course, you gotta find the weapon first, which might be hard depending on the DM) are rather severe.

But yah, basically, as long as you do nothing special with them, they're just what they're listed as (so Faithful Avenger is a +1 Cold Iron Falchion). When you perform Least Legacy Ritual and are at least level 5, you gain abilities and penalties as appropriate for that level, and then you need to perform Lesser and Greater Rituals for levels 11-16 and 17-20 respectively to gain the appropriate abilities.

Tak
2009-06-20, 07:12 PM
Thank you thank you!

Tak
2009-06-20, 07:54 PM
Ok I'm probably going to sound stupid here but what is fast healing (2) (that is what I assume would be the translation of guerison accéléré (2))
and in wich book can I find that? In the complete warrior book, the first prestige class that is talking about wild shaping get that.

Douglas
2009-06-20, 08:02 PM
Fast Healing is a special ability that automatically heals the creature that has it by a certain amount of hp every round. The 2 in this case is the amount of healing per round.

Eldariel
2009-06-20, 08:06 PM
Fast Healing is a special ability that automatically heals the creature that has it by a certain amount of hp every round. The 2 in this case is the amount of healing per round.

To add to the inevitable confusion, the difference between Fast Healing and Regeneration is that Fast Healing cures damage, while Regeneration turns all damage (except the type that specifically pierces Regeneration) into non-lethal damage and then heals the non-lethal damage.

As a rule, creatures with Fast Healing still die when their HP drops to -10 or 0 (some exceptions like Vampire exist, but those come from different sources) while Regenerating creatures also can die, they only die when dealt the given amount of lethal damage (or damage that penetrates their Regeneration; dealing more than Regenerator's HP in non-lethal damage merely knocks it out, while dealing lethal damage, such as Fire-damage to trolls, actually kills it).

Tak
2009-06-22, 11:26 AM
Hi me again. Yesterday we tried a fight just to feel the rules. So I setup a map in an abandonned village where the PCs had to find some WANTED guys. Bam they find them and fight start. The party was a druid, a cleric and a wizard. The Opponents were a wizard, a fighter and a ranger.

Anyway the Pc wizard used the charm spell on the fighter and it worked well (he rolled a sad 2). The wizard proceeded to talk him to step outside of battle in wich case he wouldn't get his head chop off.

At that point I wasn't sure how to deal with that. The other PC didn't attack the fighter. any help would be realy apreciated.

Also, we wasn't sure if mage armor stack on a regular armor? Like casting it on the cleric.

Cyrion
2009-06-22, 11:40 AM
As a general rule, bonuses of the same kind do not stack. Mage armor gives an armor bonus, so it won't stack with the armor bonus of the cleric's armor.

Duke of URL
2009-06-22, 12:26 PM
Ok I'm probably going to sound stupid here but what is fast healing (2) (that is what I assume would be the translation of guerison accéléré (2))
and in wich book can I find that? In the complete warrior book, the first prestige class that is talking about wild shaping get that.

Fast healing is a core rule, found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing).

Lapak
2009-06-22, 12:34 PM
Don't know if this is advice you'll be able to use, but if your group is brand-new to D&D it might make sense to start everyone off at level 1. You all would have a LOT less to keep track of, which would let everyone get settled with the basic rules, and as the characters grew into their powers you'd have time to learn each thing separately rather than dropping twenty different kinds of abilities, each with special rules, on you all at once. I assume that you're not doing this because you're talking about Dragon Wildshaping and such, but it might be worth thinking about.

Tak
2009-06-22, 12:37 PM
Oh yeah we are not going to start at high level, but we are still checking everything for the futur multiclass/prestige class.

But the charm thing is still bugging me.

Eldariel
2009-06-22, 12:47 PM
Oh yeah we are not going to start at high level, but we are still checking everything for the futur multiclass/prestige class.

But the charm thing is still bugging me.

What's the problem? Provided the Wizard wins the opposed Charisma-check to make him leave the battle, he'll walk away like nothing happened. Of course, if Charm Person is cast while you're a clearly antagonist party, he's entitled to the +5 bonus to save.

If he fails that save though, it doesn't matter; he'll stop attacking the Wizard, and with the Charisma-check the Wizard can make him walk out of the fight (that's something he wouldn't ordinarily do). That's perfectly ok; Color Spray or Sleep just plain knocks people out without a save. This isn't quite as strong in combat as other level 1 spells even, if that's what you're thinking of.

Tak
2009-06-22, 12:51 PM
Oh it's that easy? I was thinking there woudl be more rules about bluff and sense motive etc. Ah thanks then!

DragoonWraith
2009-06-22, 01:36 PM
Someone with high Bluff and/or Diplomacy could convince someone to do what he did without magic, but the Charm spell completely gets around that and just makes it a set Charisma check.

only1doug
2009-06-22, 01:51 PM
Hi me again. Yesterday we tried a fight just to feel the rules. So I setup a map in an abandonned village where the PCs had to find some WANTED guys. Bam they find them and fight start. The party was a druid, a cleric and a wizard. The Opponents were a wizard, a fighter and a ranger.

Anyway the Pc wizard used the charm spell on the fighter and it worked well (he rolled a sad 2). The wizard proceeded to talk him to step outside of battle in wich case he wouldn't get his head chop off.

At that point I wasn't sure how to deal with that. The other PC didn't attack the fighter. any help would be realy apreciated.

Also, we wasn't sure if mage armor stack on a regular armor? Like casting it on the cleric.

His was the perfect useage of charm person, the target of charm person trusts the caster like a friend (if he fails the save anyway). A friend doesn't need bluff or persuade checks for a reasonable course of action.

Tak
2009-06-22, 10:29 PM
Thanks guys, I'm realy surprised how the community here is so well informed and friendly. I realy hope I'm not being annoying. We've been playing playing many table games for years bt for some reasons, D&D rules seems to be a bit complicated. It took us more than 1 hour just to do that fight. People using spells, summon monsters and all that... And the wizard want to be a necromancer so he use the summon undead II from libris mortis near the end of the battle... we never found what were the exact stats of a Large skeleton.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-22, 11:37 PM
Thanks guys, I'm realy surprised how the community here is so well informed and friendly. I realy hope I'm not being annoying. We've been playing playing many table games for years bt for some reasons, D&D rules seems to be a bit complicated. It took us more than 1 hour just to do that fight. People using spells, summon monsters and all that... And the wizard want to be a necromancer so he use the summon undead II from libris mortis near the end of the battle... we never found what were the exact stats of a Large skeleton.

Welcome to the community! And no, you are being much better than I was at first (me trying to play an intellegent magic item).

I reccommend starting off with smaller amounts of books allowed. If you just use core rulebooks, the game is much easier to understand. Then you can add in more as you get comfortable.

d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/) is you friend. It can be easily searched for data like, for example, the stats for a Large skeleton.