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View Full Version : Ethics (And curiosity now) of open-source world building



Quietus
2009-06-20, 05:23 PM
Over the last little while, I've been putting a great deal of effort into building up my own personal world, something I intend to eventually package together into a book and, possibly, publish. Right now I'm in the process of basically building it as open-source, and what little I have is placed on a forum, where I'm brainstorming a great number of things, and refining them as I go along. Right now my focus is split, between the world in general (religions, major regions, shipping/trade, dates/holidays) and a single city, the largest in the world and the seat of the Human civilization.

My question to the boards here is this : What do you think regarding the ethics of placing something in an open-source medium like a public forum, with the intention of giving anyone who wishes to do so the ability to make comments, effectively acting as editors, then turning around and potentially publishing it? I've been thinking about placing a link to said forum in my signature and making mention of the project on the boards here, but I'm concerned about what people would think of the process I'm using, and the fact that if it does eventually get published, the best credit I can hope to offer them is a broad thank-you to "the members of the forum".

Penguintine
2009-06-20, 06:58 PM
You could give more specific credit to those who help the most. Also, letting the people know up front that you intend to publish it and that the most that they can expect to receive is credit. That should satisfy ethical requirements.

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 07:27 PM
You could give more specific credit to those who help the most. Also, letting the people know up front that you intend to publish it and that the most that they can expect to receive is credit. That should satisfy ethical requirements.

But more importantly, does it satisfy legal requirements?

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 07:29 PM
As long as you preface the EULA with "any contribution to the creative process of this world becomes property of Quietus" you should be fine legally, I think.

Myrmex
2009-06-20, 07:43 PM
As long as you preface the EULA with "any contribution to the creative process of this world becomes property of Quietus" you should be fine legally, I think.

Since there are no users, I'm not sure a EULA applies here. Software companies also have high level lawyers to enforce their EULAs.

Fishy
2009-06-20, 09:55 PM
You're looking for Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org/), which is for art what Open Source is for programming.

But yeah, ethics doesn't matter, the law does. If you're seriously planning on selling this thing for money, you have to do the research before you get started, before anyone makes a single contribution.

Friv
2009-06-20, 10:01 PM
Are you the publisher?

I can't speak for RPGs specifically, but with novels you aren't likely to acquire a publisher if the bulk of the material exists online. You would have to make sure that everything you were putting together was in a locked forum that only members could read.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 10:04 PM
Since there are no users, I'm not sure a EULA applies here. Software companies also have high level lawyers to enforce their EULAs.
He said he's building this on a forum. It is not difficult to make people join if they want to contribute.

dspeyer
2009-06-20, 11:43 PM
The important thing, ethically and legally, is that all the contributors understand and accept the terms. Display them prominently and have an "I understand" checkbox at signup. For simplicity, use an existing license such as creative commons or GNU FDL.

Whether you can find a publisher who will accept this is another question. In the computer space, both O'Reilly and Addison Wesley have published open source books, and sold them successfully. There's a good chance the gaming publishers have heard of this. They probably still won't be happy about it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-21, 12:01 AM
Also, once you publish a majority of the content as Open Source, I don't think you can then sell it for a profit, as part of the Open Source fine print reads that you are specifically prohibited from doing so.

OracleofWuffing
2009-06-21, 12:56 AM
Also, once you publish a majority of the content as Open Source, I don't think you can then sell it for a profit, as part of the Open Source fine print reads that you are specifically prohibited from doing so.


Not quite. Completely free, unrestricted open source material is perfectly legal to sell. A good example of this is OpenOffice, where there are various support tickets and newsgroups that point out, yes, people can sell their free, open source product and they don't owe a dime to anyone. The ethics of doing so, of course, are pretty subjective.
However, a license can still be attached to the material in question, and frequently, open-source stuff comes with a noncommercial license attached to it. This is where the wording, and agreement to, an EULA is important. However, it should be noted that the binding nature of an EULA is constantly in flux, so the more generic you can make the license, the better.

Unfortunately, my college doesn't think software agreements are important, so I don't know which one to reccomend for this occasion.

Quietus
2009-06-21, 03:26 AM
Thanks everyone; I'm going to have to poke around a bit at the legalities of things. The most I really expect to make from this, publishing-wise, would be the possibility of eventually building it into a PDF, selling it fairly cheaply to support whatever servers I'd need at that point, and possibly selling physical, published books at an actual profit... but having a point to start from, legally, will be quite helpful. As it stands now, only friends are poking at the forum, who I know won't be pursuing anything if/when I make this into a full-on product, but getting wider interest in it is something I'd definitely like to develop, once I understand the legal issues involved.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-21, 03:49 AM
Thanks everyone; I'm going to have to poke around a bit at the legalities of things. The most I really expect to make from this, publishing-wise, would be the possibility of eventually building it into a PDF, selling it fairly cheaply to support whatever servers I'd need at that point, and possibly selling physical, published books at an actual profit... but having a point to start from, legally, will be quite helpful. As it stands now, only friends are poking at the forum, who I know won't be pursuing anything if/when I make this into a full-on product, but getting wider interest in it is something I'd definitely like to develop, once I understand the legal issues involved.

I'd also look into the possibility of releasing it initially under an SRD, much like 3.5. This is good, because it lets you develop the game, and can explicitly state what is copyrighted to you and what can be publicly posted and what can't and can also state that you can still charge for it. Like WoTC did with their PhB/DMG/ and other content on the 3.5 srd website until they abandoned it for 4.0.

Quietus
2009-06-21, 04:46 AM
I'd also look into the possibility of releasing it initially under an SRD, much like 3.5. This is good, because it lets you develop the game, and can explicitly state what is copyrighted to you and what can be publicly posted and what can't and can also state that you can still charge for it. Like WoTC did with their PhB/DMG/ and other content on the 3.5 srd website until they abandoned it for 4.0.

True. I do like this option; Having the ability to break it down like that would be handy. But I think that would require an even greater knowledge of the laws involved... thankfully (by some definitions, anyway), my shifts at work were recently cut a little, so that new spare time can be spent researching.

kjones
2009-06-21, 11:10 AM
You're looking for Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org/), which is for art what Open Source is for programming.

But yeah, ethics doesn't matter, the law does. If you're seriously planning on selling this thing for money, you have to do the research before you get started, before anyone makes a single contribution.

I'm not sure Creative Commons is what you want here. Creative Commons is if you want people to share your work - you can restrict commercial use and/or derivative works, if you so desire, but people can still distribute your work freely as long as they give you credit.

Ethically, as long as you make it clear up-front that anyone who helps you on this can expect nothing whatsoever in return, you're fine. Legally, not sure, but ethically.

Quietus
2009-06-22, 12:11 AM
A thought, devoid of ethics questions at this point; If I develop it strictly as an interesting setting, with the potential end use of turning it into an SRD-style website and then using it as part of a portfolio of things I'd created for the purpose of gaining employment, would anyone be interested in poking around at it?

kjones
2009-06-22, 12:36 AM
Translation: Do you want to help me on a project for which I will ultimately get all the credit?

I think that, right there, is the crux of your problem.

Quietus
2009-06-22, 12:39 AM
Translation: Do you want to help me on a project for which I will ultimately get all the credit?

I think that, right there, is the crux of your problem.

The idea isn't that I want people to BUILD the world for me. I'm looking for help pointing out holes. Perhaps use the world in play-by-post games, and any time they come across something they feel I SHOULD have included, but DIDN'T, letting me know. Or when I'm going overboard with information, letting me know, so I can scale it back.

I already know basically how the world works, although I do need to add a few more settlements (a week between each village is a little much, even in a survivalist world). I just need help being shown where what's in my head hasn't translated into words.

kjones
2009-06-22, 12:42 AM
In that case, it's hard to answer the question of "Is anyone interested in my world?" without knowing anything about it. Post it to homebrew, with the request that anyone who uses it provide you with constructive criticism. If people want it, they'll use it.

Quietus
2009-06-22, 12:55 AM
In that case, it's hard to answer the question of "Is anyone interested in my world?" without knowing anything about it. Post it to homebrew, with the request that anyone who uses it provide you with constructive criticism. If people want it, they'll use it.

Mm, true. I'll have to develop it quite a bit more before I do that, though... unless I set up my forum so that only certain posting groups can write in the "in-progress" areas, and in that way allow anyone to use it without allowing everyone access to editing it. *Scratches chin*

potatocubed
2009-06-22, 01:40 AM
I already know basically how the world works, although I do need to add a few more settlements (a week between each village is a little much, even in a survivalist world). I just need help being shown where what's in my head hasn't translated into words.

I think in this case, what you're looking for are not so much contributors as proofreaders and playtesters.

Playtesters can usually be found in exchange for a credit in the front of the book. Proofreaders can be found for free but I'm of the general opinion that you get what you pay for. In neither case would you want any sort of open-source licence.

Quietus
2009-06-22, 02:00 AM
I think in this case, what you're looking for are not so much contributors as proofreaders and playtesters.

Playtesters can usually be found in exchange for a credit in the front of the book. Proofreaders can be found for free but I'm of the general opinion that you get what you pay for. In neither case would you want any sort of open-source licence.

True. I suppose I'm just looking at it from a now-perspective, where I'm actually transcribing (slowly, admittedly) what's in my head into words on a forum, which has altered my perception of things. I was just looking to be prepared to do this once I'd laid out everything for my primary Human city, so that while that's being run through its paces and tested for holes, I could focus my attention on the other major cities of the world, and the places of the gnomes/halflings/half-breeds.

TheYoungKing
2009-06-22, 02:26 AM
I expected a discussion about the morality of your setting. I'm disappointed now.

Quietus
2009-06-22, 02:39 AM
I expected a discussion about the morality of your setting. I'm disappointed now.

That can be done, too.

I'm re-doing the religious aspects, including the creation of an entirely new pantheon. I started with a number of tropes that I either wanted to keep/avoid, and whittled it down from there. I'm not done yet, as I need to embellish Dwarven and Elven societies before I do their deities, but the two gods I've specifically set out so far are both Human, playing off of some of the common tropes (In this case, siblings). Reducing them to one sentence each, I have a very dominant, LE god named Arctus Suluna that's essentially the setting's equivalent of Hextor, to which I may be adding some storm imagery. His sister, Amia Suluna, is much more submissive, essentially taking a "support" role behind her brother and evening out some of his more extreme views, and she's got sort of a healer/provider/protector feel, like a human Yondalla who stole Pelor's healing.

The major Human city, Vaeles, has these two - primarily Arctus - as its patron deity. A few centuries ago, it was his followers who were willing to do what was necessary to bring about the end of Draconic slavery (The "Good" gods heartily disapproved of their methods, but the ends are hard to argue with), and to the victor go the spoils. The city is now ruled harshly by an authoritarian state that requires licenses for a great deal of anything, and has extremely harsh laws, including capital punishment for capital offenses (murders, rapes, and other heinous crimes), and anything less leaves you either as a poorly maintained prisoner, or more likely, a poorly maintained slave, sent to state-approved farms to "work off your debt to society". Outside of these things, the city is much more Lawful than Evil, although the logical results of this can be a little.. depressing. Such as a city actively divided into segments by its very architecture, intended to help trap in and capture fleeing criminals, with regular patrols of guards in every sector.


To me, that sounds like an interesting city to start play in; The feel I'm going for with Vethedar is a very harsh, survivalist feel, where people are WILLING to put up with that sort of situation because it does, in fact, keep them safe - even if it doesn't really lend itself to happiness. Of course, I suspect there'll be some people who would take offense to the extremes the city is willing to go to, particularly where the law is concerned.

(As for Amia's contribution to the city; As noted, she is the more submissive of the siblings. She's certainly got some clout, and is the main reason the city isn't full-on stereotypical middle east laws - "Steal a loaf of bread, we cut off your hand" type stuff. But her interaction with the general public is more limited to that of a hospitaler, with a touch of Blessing the Harvest thrown in.)

Steward
2009-06-22, 11:25 AM
Could it be similar to circulating an unpublished manuscript around to your friends and family for comments and editing, before submitting it into a publisher and cutting them completely out of the money cycle?

Raum
2009-06-22, 06:19 PM
My question to the boards here is this : What do you think regarding the ethics of placing something in an open-source medium like a public forum, with the intention of giving anyone who wishes to do so the ability to make comments, effectively acting as editors, then turning around and potentially publishing it? Ethically, informed voluntary consent should cover most issues. However you may have legal issues with copyright if you publish content authored by someone else. I'd suggest asking a lawyer.

In general I'd say it's simply easier not to allow public input to a project intended to be published for profit. It can be done, look at the companies who have asked customers to create their own commercials for examples. Of course those companies typically have a much larger dedicated legal staff than most of us...

Have you considered publishing under one of the standard open source licenses instead? The 'Creative Commons' and 'GPL' are probably the most common sources of open licensing in varying degrees of openness.

Quietus
2009-06-23, 08:28 AM
Ethically, informed voluntary consent should cover most issues. However you may have legal issues with copyright if you publish content authored by someone else. I'd suggest asking a lawyer.

In general I'd say it's simply easier not to allow public input to a project intended to be published for profit. It can be done, look at the companies who have asked customers to create their own commercials for examples. Of course those companies typically have a much larger dedicated legal staff than most of us...

Have you considered publishing under one of the standard open source licenses instead? The 'Creative Commons' and 'GPL' are probably the most common sources of open licensing in varying degrees of openness.

I'll be looking into those licenses over the next couple days, yes. And I'm not looking for people to author content, necessarily, mostly I'm trying to find the holes in what I HAVE written, to make sure those get filled.