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dr.cello
2009-06-20, 08:53 PM
So, I have noticed that for any class that doesn't have class skills which rely on it, Intelligence has become a largely useless ability score to have--it provides bonuses only to knowledge skills, doesn't grant any additional skills, nor does it grant languages. There's little reason for intelligence to be used as anything but a dump stat, unless you have intelligence-based class abilities.

This isn't true of any other abilities. Wisdom gives bonuses to a number of useful skills, as do charisma and dexterity. Strength and constitution both help a character out in other ways.

So, my question is, if I'm running a campaign, is there a way to put intelligence on par with the other ability scores? Am I missing something?

I considered returning intelligence to its old position of 'add another skill for each point of int modifier,' but some rudimentary calculations suggest that this would quickly just cause high-intelligence characters to completely max out their skill list--would that be too much, or is the cost of putting a high ability score there commensurate with the potential gains? Should it only be a bonus skill for every two points of modifier (rounded up, perhaps)?

Giving bonus languages makes sense, but I doubt it would be adequate to encourage anyone not to dump intelligence.

Flickerdart
2009-06-20, 09:10 PM
Every odd point is a skill, every even point a language? Thus, 16 INT nets you a language and two skills extra, at the cost of a valuable 16.

FoE
2009-06-20, 09:11 PM
My Infernal Warlock luvs his high Intellegience score. It boosts a lot of his attacks.

Also, I may be mistaken on this because I don't have my book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I can use my Intellegience modifier to boost my AC if I'm wearing light armour.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-20, 09:19 PM
My Infernal Warlock luvs his high Intellegience score. It boosts a lot of his attacks.


There's little reason for intelligence to be used as anything but a dump stat, unless you have intelligence-based class abilities.

The OP addressed classes with intelligence-based abilities.


Also, I may be mistaken on this because I don't have my book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I can use my Intellegience modifier to boost my AC if I'm wearing light armour.

Yes, but there's no reason not to use Dexterity instead.

Saph
2009-06-20, 09:24 PM
Yeah, the problem is that Intelligence has to compete with Dexterity. Dexterity boosts your stealth, acrobatics, initiative, and thieving. Intelligence boosts . . . your knowledge skills. And not even all of your knowledge skills, just some of them.

Unless you have some class feature that plays off Int, there's really no reason not to make it your dump stat.

- Saph

Thajocoth
2009-06-20, 09:24 PM
The same can be said for any score. Str is useless for wizards, for example. Sure, if the DM throws nothing but pits at you, you'll need your friends to tie a rope to you, or if, for some odd reason, your group doesn't ignore encumbrance, you might need allies to hold a few things at high levels... But usually, that all comes up WAY less often than, say, Arcana checks to know more about a fey, elemental or shadow monster, Religion checks to know about immortal and undead monsters, Arcana checks to detect the presence of magic behind a door before busting it down, Arcana checks to determine what magical regions in the room actually do, History checks to determine the value of art objects, History checks to know about the area you're in, ect...

You don't need each score to be good for each player. Where one player is weak, another can help them pick up the slack. This is why a party needs to band together. Solo their weaknesses would all be exposed.

Hal
2009-06-20, 09:25 PM
Well, a decent Int score will boost your Reflex defense, besides certain skill checks. In general, most players choose one or the other stat for each defense; high strength OR con, high dex OR int, high wis OR cha. Since the stats are (relatively) evenly divided on how many skills they affect, it's not that big of a difference.

That being said, Int is very important if you want to learn multiple languages. Linguist requires Int 13.

(Off topic: That's rather frustrating in my mind, as it means that most characters won't ever have access to what I would call a valuable non-combat feat. I really think it ought to just be accessible for the cost of the feat.)

The New Bruceski
2009-06-20, 09:25 PM
Yes, but there's no reason not to use Dexterity instead.

So if you don't use Int-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Dex for Reflex and AC.

BUT

If you don't use Dex-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Int for Reflex and AC. Doesn't it work both ways like that?

Saph
2009-06-20, 09:33 PM
So if you don't use Int-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Dex for Reflex and AC.

BUT

If you don't use Dex-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Int for Reflex and AC. Doesn't it work both ways like that?

Dexterity boosts initiative. Initiative is important. That's the difference, and the reason Int is the most common dump stat.

- Saph

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-20, 09:35 PM
If you don't use Dex-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Int for Reflex and AC. Doesn't it work both ways like that?


Dexterity boosts your stealth, acrobatics, initiative, and thieving. Intelligence boosts . . . your knowledge skills.

As Saph said, the comparison is ridiculous. And don't forget that Acrobatics or Athletics is good for getting out of grabs.


That being said, Int is very important if you want to learn multiple languages. Linguist requires Int 13.

Unless your DM goes out of the way to include as many languages as possible, there's basically no reason to ever have Linguist. Any party worth it's salt will be diversified enough to cover every language that would reasonably come up in a game.


Stuff about Arcana, History and Religion checks.

Doesn't Religion work off Wisdom? And why have a history check to know about an area when the Ranger can find out about it now? Why use an Arcana check to find magical auras behind doors if you're breaking them down anyway? It's not exactly a terribly important and necessary skill to have unless you really want the few Arcana-only rituals.

Thajocoth
2009-06-20, 09:43 PM
Doesn't Religion work off Wisdom? And why have a history check to know about an area when the Ranger can find out about it now? Why use an Arcana check to find magical auras behind doors if you're breaking them down anyway? It's not exactly a terribly important and necessary skill to have unless you really want the few Arcana-only rituals.

No, Religion is Int. Divine classes tend to use Wis and gain training in Religion, but it's Int.

Yeah, you can run into battle unprepared. Totally. You could also run into battle knowing "Somebody towards the left has a magic item" or "There's a magical zone in the area." Then you identify that zone as "Everyone in the zone has +1 to hit" and suddenly know where it's advantageous to stand. Or you could wonder why all the enemies are guarding some symbol on the floor and wind up spending a lot more healing surges.

Knowing enemy's weaknesses tends to be incredibly useful too. Unless you're a rogue (who gets CA in that 1st round based on initiative), it's more useful than a higher initiative. The only monster knowledge checks int doesn't help with are natural and aberrant monsters.

What a Ranger can discover about the area now is what can be seen now. They can't see that 1000 years ago, Giants made sacrifices to some demon here only to be wiped out, then 500 years ago a group of Hobgoblins did the exact same thing for the same demon.

Mando Knight
2009-06-20, 09:46 PM
Unless your DM goes out of the way to include as many languages as possible, there's basically no reason to ever have Linguist. Any party worth it's salt will be diversified enough to cover every language that would reasonably come up in a game.

That, and there's also the Comprehend Languages ritual, so if you're stuck in a place where everyone speaks a language you don't and lack knowledge of Common, you can understand them for about an hour, which should be more than enough time to get access to an interpreter who knows both Common and Language X without the ritual.

Aron Times
2009-06-20, 09:56 PM
Knowledge checks are free actions. With the right knowledge skill, you can figure out a foe's powers, resistances, and vulnerabilities, among other things.

Knowledge skills work like DBZ scouters according to RAW. There's even an item in the Adventurer's Vault worn over an eye that lets you auto-identify the monsters that you encounter.

Kesnit
2009-06-20, 10:10 PM
Dexterity boosts initiative. Initiative is important.
- Saph

How well you roll is more important than what your INIT mod is. In a recent gaming session, my DEX 10 Swordmage kept going before the high-DEX Rogue, simply because I rolled well and the Rogue rolled poorly.

dr.cello
2009-06-20, 10:48 PM
Every odd point is a skill, every even point a language? Thus, 16 INT nets you a language and two skills extra, at the cost of a valuable 16.

Ah, excellent suggestion! Perhaps you could choose which one to start with--so a 16 could net you two languages and a skill if you felt so inclined.

Behold_the_Void
2009-06-20, 10:54 PM
One of my house rules is Int or Dex can be used for initiative. I have considered some kind of skill thing too, but it hasn't come up too much thus far. The rule I was considering was each 2 points over 10 is another skill on your skill list, and each 4 points over is another trained skill.

FoE
2009-06-20, 10:57 PM
Yes, but there's no reason not to use Dexterity instead.

Unless I'm an infernal warlock who wants a high Intellegience score. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-06-20, 11:05 PM
How well you roll is more important than what your INIT mod is. In a recent gaming session, my DEX 10 Swordmage kept going before the high-DEX Rogue, simply because I rolled well and the Rogue rolled poorly.With that in mind, there's no point in having high stats at all because how well you roll will always be more important at lower levels. :smallwink: So other than con, everything is now a dump stat.


See what I did there?

Haven
2009-06-20, 11:12 PM
The same can be said for any score. Str is useless for wizards, for example. Sure, if the DM throws nothing but pits at you, you'll need your friends to tie a rope to you, or if, for some odd reason, your group doesn't ignore encumbrance, you might need allies to hold a few things at high levels... But usually, that all comes up WAY less often than, say, Arcana checks to know more about a fey, elemental or shadow monster, Religion checks to know about immortal and undead monsters, Arcana checks to detect the presence of magic behind a door before busting it down, Arcana checks to determine what magical regions in the room actually do, History checks to determine the value of art objects, History checks to know about the area you're in, ect...

But strength is much more useful to a wizard than intelligence is to a fighter. If the DM made a rule that all fighters get 18 intelligence and all wizards get 18 strength, the wizard would be able to make decent basic attacks (which is handy if a warlord's around or in various mitigating circumstances), not suffer from encumberance penalties (if those are in play), etc. Which isn't much, but it's more than a fighter gets, which is: possibly a Reflex defense bonus. That's the only benefit.

I really like Flickerdart's idea.

Altima
2009-06-20, 11:16 PM
Perhaps allow intelligence to be added to some, or all, skills in addition to the skill's primary stat. In most cases, this should only be an extra one or two, which is hardly game breaking. I suppose it could get out of hand when you have certain characters starting with 18 or 20 intelligence, but, eh, they're supposed to be genuises anyway.

Gralamin
2009-06-20, 11:28 PM
With all other things being equal, each stat provides the following:

Strength: Carrying Capacity, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Constitution: HP, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Dexterity: Init, 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Intelligence: 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Wisdom: 5 Skills, Will
Charisma: 4 Skills, Will

The major differences is when you compare the skills between Dex and Int, and Wis and Cha.

Dexterity: Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery (All good skills).
Intelligence: Arcana, History, Religion (Usefulness depends greatly on DMs)
Wisdom: Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception (Heal, Insight, and Perception are all great. Dungeoneering and Nature - see Intelligence)
Charisma: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise (Bluff is a great skill, Diplomacy is entirely DM dependent, Intimidate isn't all that great, and Streetwise is a very good skill).

So really Intelligence and Charisma are about equally dump-stats compared to Dex and Wis.

dr.cello
2009-06-21, 01:37 AM
It's also always been the case that strength is more or less useless for a wizard if your party isn't paying attention to encumbrance. If you ever had to do something physical you'd end up suffering for it.

The scenario I was envisioning when I wrote the original post was this: I'm rolling up a rogue. I envision him as being a fairly intelligent character, but I have to put that 8 in something. If I put it in pretty much any other stat, I'm going to be penalizing my character in some way. If I put it in intelligence I lose... well, I get penalized slightly on Arcana, History, and Religion checks. For most games I've played, that's essentially a nonexistent penalty, and if I put a good score in it, I gain no real benefit.

(Another observation: despite dex and int seldom playing nicely with one another in 4e RAW, I note that the Eladrin get a bonus to both...)

Gralamin
2009-06-21, 01:39 AM
It's also always been the case that strength is more or less useless for a wizard if your party isn't paying attention to encumbrance. If you ever had to do something physical you'd end up suffering for it.

The scenario I was envisioning when I wrote the original post was this: I'm rolling up a rogue. I envision him as being a fairly intelligent character, but I have to put that 8 in something. If I put it in pretty much any other stat, I'm going to be penalizing my character in some way. If I put it in intelligence I lose... well, I get penalized slightly on Arcana, History, and Religion checks. For most games I've played, that's essentially a nonexistent penalty, and if I put a good score in it, I gain no real benefit.

(Another observation: despite dex and int seldom playing nicely with one another in 4e RAW, I note that the Eladrin get a bonus to both...)

Warforged and Eladrin are both notably more powerful then most races. This is due to the bonus to two stats that help the same defense.

dr.cello
2009-06-21, 02:14 AM
I thought only the higher ability score counted towards your defense?

That is to say, if I have an 18 dex and a 16 int, I only get the +4 to my reflex defense, and the 16 doesn't do me any good?

Gralamin
2009-06-21, 02:15 AM
I thought only the higher ability score counted towards your defense?

That is to say, if I have an 18 dex and a 16 int, I only get the +4 to my reflex defense, and the 16 doesn't do me any good?

Exactly why they made those races more powerful. Other races get a free +1 to two Defenses from ability increases. They only get a +1

Zen Master
2009-06-21, 02:51 AM
Seriously though - would anyone with an above average intelligence go on adventures, ever????

I mean really - you're smart enough to make an honest living, doing well for yourself in any trade you chose. Let the morons with delusions of grandeur go off and get themselves killed by goblins.

Oslecamo
2009-06-21, 02:55 AM
So really Intelligence and Charisma are about equally dump-stats compared to Dex and Wis.

But charisma's skills are that much powerfull, between diplomacy and intimidate you can make people dance to your song. My 4e fighter will much rather have a non negative intimidate modifier than a non negative knowledge modifier, specially when all his attacks are targeting AC anyway, so it's really not that hot to know the oponent's weakness.

chiasaur11
2009-06-21, 02:57 AM
Seriously though - would anyone with an above average intelligence go on adventures, ever????

I mean really - you're smart enough to make an honest living, doing well for yourself in any trade you chose. Let the morons with delusions of grandeur go off and get themselves killed by goblins.

Because, unless you're born rich, adventuring is the only way to get real money.

Also, you can eventually become like unto a god. What part of that fails to appeal to your classic high int low wis type?

High wis types tend to be clerics, and thus defended by "My god would kill me otherwise."

Gralamin
2009-06-21, 03:19 AM
But charisma's skills are that much powerfull, between diplomacy and intimidate you can make people dance to your song. My 4e fighter will much rather have a non negative intimidate modifier than a non negative knowledge modifier, specially when all his attacks are targeting AC anyway, so it's really not that hot to know the oponent's weakness.

That isn't the point of the comparison. The point is the argument "Int is a dump stat since Dex does almost all it can, and more" can easily also be applied to Wisdom and Charisma, IE: "The bonuses from Charisma are situational at best. Wisdom's bonuses tend to be fairly constantly useful. So Charisma should be dumped over Wisdom."

Assuming no class features use the stats, of course.

half eaten oreo
2009-06-21, 03:33 AM
With all other things being equal, each stat provides the following:

Strength: Carrying Capacity, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Constitution: HP, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Dexterity: Init, 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Intelligence: 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Wisdom: 5 Skills, Will
Charisma: 4 Skills, Will


Also Str and Dex are used in basic attacks, not huge but sometimes useful.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-21, 03:33 AM
I find that in 4E, every character has three dump stats. It just so happens that certain stats give a boost to more class features than others. For instance, there is also zero reason to boost strength if you're not a melee class or sorcerer, and the fact that charisma improves just a few skills doesn't make it worth it for e.g. a fighter or wizard either.

Gralamin
2009-06-21, 04:09 AM
Also Str and Dex are used in basic attacks, not huge but sometimes useful.

Melee Training / Intelligent Blade Master. You now use any other attribute. Basically, if Basic attacks matter, they go off your good stat. If they don't, then they do not.

Totally Guy
2009-06-21, 04:21 AM
I'd actually like to see Int used in a called shot mechanic.

It could be usable with attacks targetting AC only and only for Melee and Ranged attacks, not blasts or bursts.

I don't know how it should be balanced with everything else. It'd probably be less accurate so you could apply a static penalty perhaps per body part. And the body part targeted could determine some status condition.

It's too complicated for me to do but I'm not a game designer so maybe it's possible.

erikun
2009-06-21, 04:31 AM
Well, if you want to stop butchering the outdoors and start outsmarting the locals, Intelligence and Charisma are suddenly far more important than Dexterity and Wisdom. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2009-06-21, 05:02 AM
Strength: Carrying Capacity, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Constitution: HP, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Dexterity: Init, 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Intelligence: 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Wisdom: 5 Skills, Will
Charisma: 4 Skills, Will
Yes, except that carrying capacity is mostly irrelevant, and HP can actually key off every other stat by taking the proper Background slot.

Another point to bear in mind is that improving your "dump" stats in an effort to rise your skills is mostly ineffective. It takes nearly one-quarter of your point buy (5 out of 22) to rise e.g. your dexterity from 10 (+0) to 14 (+2) and that gives you a measly +10% bonus to skills. It's simply not worth it compared to boosting your primary attack or secondary effect stats.

Also, with most skills in 4E, the important part is having one character in the party who is good at them, and the rest can rely on him to do that part. Teamwork, you know.

Finally, I find that raising one defense by a lot is worth more than raising all defenses by a little. Yes, your wizard is going to have crappy fort, but there simply isn't much you can do about it. You can spend a lot of effort to rise it from poor to mediocre, but this comes at a cost of dropping your will defense from excellent to good.

This is why so many builds use ability scores like 18/14/11/10/10/8, 17/14/14/10/10/8 or 16/16/13/11/10/8. Having three dump stats doesn't hurt your character.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-21, 05:36 AM
Seriously though - would anyone with an above average intelligence go on adventures, ever????

I mean really - you're smart enough to make an honest living, doing well for yourself in any trade you chose. Let the morons with delusions of grandeur go off and get themselves killed by goblins.

Money. Power. The desire to help the helpless. Having a mission to fulfill. The thrill of facing and overcoming danger. There's a lot of viable non-stupid reasons to become an adventurer. Not to mention that a first level 4e character is much more powerful than in previous editions - he's not some crappy warrior with the power of a small town militiaman, he's a hero. Inexperienced hero, but still one.


As for the actual topic, I don't see any problems here - as it was mentioned before, all classes have dump stats, and the only ability score that stays useful for everyone is constitution. The best way to improve the usefulness of intelligence would be including some melee-related feats that require it - the biggest reason, at least at paragon and further, why most melee characters choose dexterity over intelligence is not initiative, but the fact that feats related to heavy blades (best weapons for most melee characters) require dexterity.


HP can actually key off every other stat by taking the proper Background slot.


Only if your DM allows the backgrounds from that article to be taken by players. Most don't, as they massively overshadow PHB2 backgrounds.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-21, 05:46 AM
Only if your DM allows the backgrounds from that article to be taken by players. Most don't, as they massively overshadow PHB2 backgrounds.

True, but the FR guide offers two backgrounds that key hit points off intelligence and wisdom, respectively. I haven't read yet whether Eberron has backgrounds. I disagree with your assertion that most DMs don't allow these backgrounds, for lack of statistics on the matter. At the very least, they are legal in all RPGA games.

Kol Korran
2009-06-21, 08:38 AM
first of all, i agree with Kurald Galain- usually you have 3 dump stats, sometime 4 (if going by the 18 and 14 as the two primary abilities)

i don't find that intelligence needs to be upgraded. the game works fine as it is in that respect. and you'll usually have at least one high intelligence character in the party.

however, a friedn of mine was bugged by the same "problem", and he tried this kind of fix: each character has a cash of "inginuity" points (originally it's in hebrew, i'm not sure the translation is right) equel to once or twice their intlligence modifier (forgot what it was exactly). the player can use this cash to boost up any skill check he wants (the character finds a "smarter" way of doing things), abel to add up to +4 per check. this way you get a similar effect of "increasing skills" in a much more varied way. he tells me it worked nicely for him, made most players want to have at least 12 on their int (though some still didn't care), just so they could boost up a certain skill when it's needed.

his games due tend to be skill heavy however, so take that into consideration.

all in all, i still think it's not realy an issue. so most characters are of average to a bit low intelligence. so what?

Kol.

Hal
2009-06-21, 09:07 AM
Unless your DM goes out of the way to include as many languages as possible, there's basically no reason to ever have Linguist. Any party worth it's salt will be diversified enough to cover every language that would reasonably come up in a game.


Actually, there are several languages that first level character's can't learn. The only way to learn them is by taking Linguist or buying a Polyglot gem.

It's situationally useful, but it's just part of the trend I see in PHB1 where many of the feats have rather odd requirements.

Leeham
2009-06-21, 04:28 PM
Here's a reason for Int. Not having a total dumb-ass character.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-21, 04:32 PM
Here's a reason for Int. Not having a total dumb-ass character.

That only counts as a reason in systems with verisimilitude :smalltongue:

Leeham
2009-06-21, 04:38 PM
Seriously though? When did the roleplaying die? Surely the motivation for having a decent Int score is to be some one who doesn't stand at the back dribbling on his +2 longsword? If that's the kind of character you want to play, then fine, play them. Just don't be them because of silly things like what stats are useful. When people start to bandy around terms like "Dump stat", a little part of me dies inside....

dr.cello
2009-06-21, 04:48 PM
Well, if you want to stop butchering the outdoors and start outsmarting the locals, Intelligence and Charisma are suddenly far more important than Dexterity and Wisdom. :smallbiggrin:

Intelligence doesn't do a lot in social encounters; Wisdom (Insight) is going to be significantly more useful. Indeed, it is precisely Intelligence's lack of utility in non-combat encounters that prompted me to make this thread.

EDIT:

Seriously though? When did the roleplaying die? Surely the motivation for having a decent Int score is to be some one who doesn't stand at the back dribbling on his +2 longsword? If that's the kind of character you want to play, then fine, play them. Just don't be them because of silly things like what stats are useful. When people start to bandy around terms like "Dump stat", a little part of me dies inside....

See, this is exactly my point. I like having an at least decent-intelligence character, but I don't want to be actively penalizing myself when I do so. If I want a high charisma, I get bonuses to charisma-based skills, which can all be useful for social interaction. If I want high wisdom, I get bonuses to wisdom-based skills, which can be useful for interactions as well as simply for standing guard or noticing/finding things. If I want high intelligence... I get bonuses to some knowledge skills? (And none of the ones that, say, a rogue has as class skills.)

I've long felt that a high-intelligence character is resourceful, which is handily represented with having more skills. A high-intelligence character may not be naturally proficient with all of his skills, but he has learned more of them and can get along in any situation. It represents being able to learn quickly, retain knowledge, etc. (This is presumably why the jack-of-all-trades feat requires int 13 to learn.)

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-06-21, 05:14 PM
Seriously though? When did the roleplaying die? Surely the motivation for having a decent Int score is to be some one who doesn't stand at the back dribbling on his +2 longsword? If that's the kind of character you want to play, then fine, play them. Just don't be them because of silly things like what stats are useful. When people start to bandy around terms like "Dump stat", a little part of me dies inside....
Yeah. The comments on this thread, particularly as they say things like "there are 4 dump stats"...they're right, when they say that Intelligence isn't useful for much besides specific classes.

Big deal.

Intelligence has always been highly an RP thing, anyway. But it's also true that it gets power boosts from some classes, and that alone makes it worthwhile to boost.

And honestly, was a 16 in any one stat really that bad?

Tengu_temp
2009-06-21, 05:17 PM
Here's a reason for Int. Not having a total dumb-ass character.

Apart from what dr.cello said, I'd like to point out that, by default rules, you can only have one stat lower than 10 in 4e, and it can't go lower than 8 - PCs can be, at worst, slightly dim, but not total idiots (unless you decide to roleplay your 8 int, 10 wis barbarian like that).

Swordguy
2009-06-21, 05:40 PM
Seriously though? When did the roleplaying die? Surely the motivation for having a decent Int score is to be some one who doesn't stand at the back dribbling on his +2 longsword? If that's the kind of character you want to play, then fine, play them. Just don't be them because of silly things like what stats are useful. When people start to bandy around terms like "Dump stat", a little part of me dies inside....

Welcome to my "favorite posters" list.

Also, welcome to GitP. You'll find there's a LOT of "we're only going to discuss mechanics" stuff.

dr.cello
2009-06-21, 05:51 PM
Welcome to my "favorite posters" list.

Also, welcome to GitP. You'll find there's a LOT of "we're only going to discuss mechanics" stuff.

I prefer to think of it as "making the mechanics not actively penalize people who roleplay."

Kurald Galain
2009-06-21, 06:17 PM
Intelligence has always been highly an RP thing, anyway. But it's also true that it gets power boosts from some classes, and that alone makes it worthwhile to boost.
I disagree with the notion that the way one roleplays one's character is necessarily related to the six numerical scores listed on a piece of paper. It's very easy to play a clumsy character with a high dex score, or a smart character with a low int score.

MartinHarper
2009-06-21, 06:28 PM
It's very easy to play a clumsy character with a high dex score, or a smart character with a low int score.

How do you play a clumsy character with a high dex score? Whenever that character rolls to try to do something dextrous, such as balancing on a tripwire, they'll have a higher bonus, and therefore they are more likely to succeed, whereas one would expect a clumsy character to fail.

NecroRebel
2009-06-21, 06:33 PM
How do you play a clumsy character with a high dex score? Whenever that character rolls to try to do something dextrous, such as balancing on a tripwire, they'll have a higher bonus, and therefore they are more likely to succeed, whereas one would expect a clumsy character to fail.

Play it as them being very careful in life-and-death situations (as in, those cases where you're rolling), but when you're just walking around you often trip, knock things over, drop or break things, et cetera.

Roleplaying and mechanics are... related, but one character's mechanical representation of fluff and fluff representation of mechanics does not have to have anything in common with another's. Fluff is nearly infinitely mutable; you just have to think about what it might mean for a bit sometimes.

Mando Knight
2009-06-21, 06:45 PM
How do you play a clumsy character with a high dex score? Whenever that character rolls to try to do something dextrous, such as balancing on a tripwire, they'll have a higher bonus, and therefore they are more likely to succeed, whereas one would expect a clumsy character to fail.

They trip and stumble their way into accomplishing whatever. And get ridiculously lucky.

...In other words... the background music starts sounding like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RWbC6ip1wU) and Johnny Depp is pulled in for the VA in the animated adaptation. :smalltongue:

Leeham
2009-06-22, 04:13 AM
I disagree with the notion that the way one roleplays one's character is necessarily related to the six numerical scores listed on a piece of paper. It's very easy to play a clumsy character with a high dex score, or a smart character with a low int score.

But surely the point of even having ability scores is to have a guide of your characters capabilities?


Apart from what dr.cello said, I'd like to point out that, by default rules, you can only have one stat lower than 10 in 4e, and it can't go lower than 8 - PCs can be, at worst, slightly dim, but not total idiots (unless you decide to roleplay your 8 int, 10 wis barbarian like that).

Surely this statement makes this whole discussion... damn what's the word?
Nevermind. Anyway, surely now the point is well, you're not getting that heavily penalised. Sure, that stat maybe isn't as good as your other ones, but it gets better as you level up. Even a 10 bags you a +1 bonus at level 2.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-22, 08:37 AM
But surely the point of even having ability scores is to have a guide of your characters capabilities?
Yes. However, the scores are about the character's crunch abilities, whereas "being smart" or "being agile" is a fluff ability. More than in any other system, in 4E, crunch and fluff are disjoint: the str ability score doesn't (necessarily) mean that the character is seen as "strong" by other people in the world, it means that he is good at Fighter attacks (and sorcerer attacks, and certain other powers). Ditto for the other five ability scores.

This means that in 3E, if you want to play a Fighter, he has to be bulky and muscular because that's what the 3E strength score means, and if you want a wiry and agile type you really can't do that with the Fighter class. In 4E, you can just say that your fighter is good with a sword but otherwise a weakling (say, Cohen the barbarian), because the str score is an abstract.

That he might pass strength skill checks slightly more often than he should is not really noticeable, because the 19-point variance on the 1d20 roll is much bigger than the 3-point difference between his expected and actual str ability score.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 10:13 AM
This means that in 3E, if you want to play a Fighter, he has to be bulky and muscular because that's what the 3E strength score means, and if you want a wiry and agile type you really can't do that with the Fighter class. In 4E, you can just say that your fighter is good with a sword but otherwise a weakling (say, Cohen the barbarian), because the str score is an abstract.

Older editions are still fairly abstract when it comes to ability scores--you can easily fluff your fighter as "a veteran combat instructor who's old and frail but can force someone to the ground in pain with a two-finger grip when they mock him" as you can "a hulking barbarian who knocks people around with his fists."

As long as the end result is the same--character X with 16 Str can in general exert more force physical force than character Y with 10 Str--you can fluff abilities however you want in any edition. Abilities tend to be fluffed as "high Str = big muscles, high Int = tendency towards big words," etc., but they don't have to be.

Panda-s1
2009-06-22, 01:31 PM
Surely this statement makes this whole discussion... damn what's the word?
Nevermind. Anyway, surely now the point is well, you're not getting that heavily penalised. Sure, that stat maybe isn't as good as your other ones, but it gets better as you level up. Even a 10 bags you a +1 bonus at level 2.

But everyone gets that +1 at level 2. The sole purpose of adding half your level to everything is so that you're better than things below your level, but you're still back where you started when compared to the rest of the party. Maybe your wizard is getting a +5 to Athletics at level 10, but it doesn't change the fact the fighter is getting a +15, automatically giving him hard DC skill checks at heroic tier.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-22, 03:24 PM
Maybe your wizard is getting a +5 to Athletics at level 10, but it doesn't change the fact the fighter is getting a +15, automatically giving him hard DC skill checks at heroic tier.

Except that skill check DCs also scale with level... :smallbiggrin:

JaxGaret
2009-06-22, 05:58 PM
One of my house rules is Int or Dex can be used for initiative.

This seems to be the easiest solution that at the same time is effective and makes sense.

Ninetail
2009-06-22, 07:10 PM
Having a high Intelligence score is useful outside the scope of the rules, though.

Ever run into any riddles? Characters with high Intelligence have a decent chance of getting hints from a fair GM. Characters with low Intelligence don't.

Ever needed to persuade your GM that your character is smart enough to come up with the plan you came up with? Int 8 isn't going to back that up very persuasively.

Have you, the player, ever forgotten something your character would benefit from remembering? Int doesn't exactly correlate with memory, but if your GM calls for a check, it's likely to be an Int check.

And so forth. Intelligence and Charisma are likely the most flexible attributes in this sense. (Wisdom id up there, too, but a lot of people aren't too sure what, exactly, it represents, other than perceptiveness. Everyone has a solid grasp of "smart" and "persuasive" though.)

Now, if your GM allows metagaming -- letting your Int 8 character come up with brilliant plans and perform higher math because you, the player, can -- that's another story. But if he's roleplaying-oriented, you have good reason to spend a couple of points on Int.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-22, 08:43 PM
This seems to be the easiest solution that at the same time is effective and makes sense.

I'd say it helps a bit, but not completely - as I mentioned before, most melee characters use heavy blades and will want to buy feats related to them once they reach paragon/epic levels, and those feats require dexterity so they will still invest in it instead of intelligence.


Having a high Intelligence score is useful outside the scope of the rules, though.

Ever run into any riddles? Characters with high Intelligence have a decent chance of getting hints from a fair GM. Characters with low Intelligence don't.

Ever needed to persuade your GM that your character is smart enough to come up with the plan you came up with? Int 8 isn't going to back that up very persuasively.

Have you, the player, ever forgotten something your character would benefit from remembering? Int doesn't exactly correlate with memory, but if your GM calls for a check, it's likely to be an Int check.

And so forth. Intelligence and Charisma are likely the most flexible attributes in this sense. (Wisdom id up there, too, but a lot of people aren't too sure what, exactly, it represents, other than perceptiveness. Everyone has a solid grasp of "smart" and "persuasive" though.)

Now, if your GM allows metagaming -- letting your Int 8 character come up with brilliant plans and perform higher math because you, the player, can -- that's another story. But if he's roleplaying-oriented, you have good reason to spend a couple of points on Int.

"Your character is too stupid to do that" is usually a bad excuse - don't tell me you've never encountered any stories where one of the stupider characters suddenly had a moment of brilliance. Plus, 10 int is still a dump stat, and gives you an excuse to do smart things from time to time anyway, and there are few characters who will have both intelligence and wisdom as dump stats.

Not to mention that the benefits you describe here vary heavily depending on the DM and campaign, while mechanical benefits are stable.

JaxGaret
2009-06-22, 09:15 PM
I'd say it helps a bit, but not completely - as I mentioned before, most melee characters use heavy blades and will want to buy feats related to them once they reach paragon/epic levels, and those feats require dexterity so they will still invest in it instead of intelligence.

I see your point. I guess only smart guys use hammers then :smallwink:

Mando Knight
2009-06-22, 09:32 PM
I see your point. I guess only smart guys use hammers then :smallwink:

Nope. The guys with hammers are the ones with a huge gut. Smart guys usually use longswords, staffs, crystal balls, or wands.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-23, 03:26 AM
Ever run into any riddles? Characters with high Intelligence have a decent chance of getting hints from a fair GM. Characters with low Intelligence don't.

Ever needed to persuade your GM that your character is smart enough to come up with the plan you came up with? Int 8 isn't going to back that up very persuasively.

Have you, the player, ever forgotten something your character would benefit from remembering? Int doesn't exactly correlate with memory, but if your GM calls for a check, it's likely to be an Int check.
None of this is in the D&D rules, however, which means you immediately qualify for Oberoni. Also, restricting players like this goes directly against the 4E design philosophy.


Now, if your GM allows metagaming -- letting your Int 8 character come up with brilliant plans and perform higher math because you, the player, can -- that's another story.
That's not what "metagaming" means.

Roderick_BR
2009-06-23, 10:32 AM
The OP addressed classes with intelligence-based abilities.
(...)
The OP did mention Str and Con as "helping in others areas". Inteligence seems like the case here. The thing is that any character uses Con, and Str is used in a lot of normal checks here and there.

Eurantien
2009-06-23, 02:07 PM
Well, a decent Int score will boost your Reflex defense, besides certain skill checks. In general, most players choose one or the other stat for each defense; high strength OR con, high dex OR int, high wis OR cha. Since the stats are (relatively) evenly divided on how many skills they affect, it's not that big of a difference.

That being said, Int is very important if you want to learn multiple languages. Linguist requires Int 13.

(Off topic: That's rather frustrating in my mind, as it means that most characters won't ever have access to what I would call a valuable non-combat feat. I really think it ought to just be accessible for the cost of the feat.)

Thing is, though, that feats in 4e aren't as powerful as they were in 3e, so the cost of the feat is smaller. At 6th level I actually thought, "which of these feats might be VAGUELY useful to me?"

Panda-s1
2009-06-23, 02:24 PM
None of this is in the D&D rules, however, which means you immediately qualify for Oberoni. Also, restricting players like this goes directly against the 4E design philosophy.

*ahem*

THE “GET A CLUE” CHECK
One way to appease the frustrated player who thinks his high-Intelligence character should be able to solve puzzles he can’t is to allow the player to roll Intelligence checks or various skill checks to help solve the puzzle. With a successful check (use the Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table, page 42, using moderate DCs), give the player a hint—a small part of the puzzle, one right move, or a clue toward a new way of thinking about the puzzle.
The DMG does deal with the idea behind riddles, and puzzles, and whatnot.

Also, it wouldn't go against the 4e design philosophy, what would go against the 4e design philosophy would be having the riddle be the only path to take, and nobody can solve it, thereby bringing the campaign to a screeching halt.

The Information Imperative
If there’s information the PCs absolutely must have in order to continue the adventure, give it to them. Don’t make them have a chance to miss the information by failing a skill check or not talking to the right person or just not looking in the right place. The players should be able to uncover important information by using skills and investigation, but for crucial information, you need a foolproof method to get it into the players’ hands. Tell them. I just consider it good gaming sense, IMO.

Eurantien
2009-06-23, 02:39 PM
Seriously though - would anyone with an above average intelligence go on adventures, ever????

I mean really - you're smart enough to make an honest living, doing well for yourself in any trade you chose. Let the morons with delusions of grandeur go off and get themselves killed by goblins.

Well, aside from using it for class features? My eladrin warlock WAS training to become a wizard (hence high INT) before an unfortunate run-in with a devil that he had to bind to himself to stop it killing him (hence an infernal warlock and a boosted CON). So, high INT because it fits and because it's useful for my class. Mostly cos it fits though.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-23, 05:59 PM
*ahem*
Yeah, that's the exact opposite of what we were actually talking about.

Should players be able to do something useful with an int check e.g. in skill challenges? Absolutely. Should players automatically fail at something because their character has a low int? Now that's against 4E design.

(OTOH the original Call of Ctulhu game does exactly that)




Also, it wouldn't go against the 4e design philosophy, what would go against the 4e design philosophy would be having the riddle be the only path to take,
That's not against 4E design philosophy, that's just plain old bad DM'ing regardless of system. Actually, based on several 4E adventures I've played, the 4E design is exactly to make the riddle be the only path to take, except that if you can't figure out the riddle you lose a healing surge and pass anyway.

Ninetail
2009-06-24, 01:27 AM
"Your character is too stupid to do that" is usually a bad excuse - don't tell me you've never encountered any stories where one of the stupider characters suddenly had a moment of brilliance.

A moment of brilliance, yes.

Constant moments of brilliance, no. That's metagaming. If you saddle your character with an Int of 8 in my campaign, and you come up with brilliant plans because you, the player, are capable of doing so, you'll find that doesn't fly. Nor does your Cha 8 character easily manage to persuade the influential, even if you yourself are silver-tongued.

After all, you wouldn't let a Str 8 character casually kick down a door just because the player was a bodybuilder, would you?


Not to mention that the benefits you describe here vary heavily depending on the DM and campaign, while mechanical benefits are stable.

This is true, and many GMs do allow metagaming mental stats. If everyone's happy with that, that's fine. But then they've got no basis for complaining that those stats don't do enough and make good dump stats. That's self-fulfilling. Those stats aren't doing enough because they're not using them fully.

Ninetail
2009-06-24, 01:42 AM
None of this is in the D&D rules, however, which means you immediately qualify for Oberoni.

"Intelligence (Int) describes how well your character learns and reasons. (...) Each of your ability scores is a number that measures that ability." PHB p. 17.

"Sometimes you're not making an attack roll or a skill check, but trying to accomplish a task that doesn't fall into either category. You make an ability check. Ability checks give the DM a way to adjudicate actions when an attack or skill check isn't appropriate." PHB p. 26.

So, Intelligence checks are indeed in the rules.



Also, restricting players like this goes directly against the 4E design philosophy.


Uh, players are not being restricted. Characters are. Players can still choose to give their characters a decent Int score.

Should I allow a low-Str character to kick down doors because otherwise I'm restricting the player? Hell no.


That's not what "metagaming" means.

Yes, it is. Metagaming is the use of out-of-character knowledge about the game to affect in-character choices. For instance, "I know that low Int won't hurt me mechanically, so I'll dump it, and it won't matter at all because I'll just use my own intelligence anyway."

Nobody ever argues this sort of thing when it comes to the physical scores, but people keep saying the same things about Int and Cha. They're dump stats because the GM is, on a regular if not constant basis, allowing those players to avoid having to roleplay their low Int and Cha. If the GM enforces that roleplay, they'll find it's much nicer to have a decent stat.

In a game with random stat rolling, I can sympathize with the metagame position... but 4e is point-based by default. A low Int is the player's choice. If he doesn't want to roleplay that, then he shouldn't make that choice.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-24, 03:42 AM
So, Intelligence checks are indeed in the rules.
Well done, that's again precisely the opposite of what we were talking about.



Should I allow a low-Str character to kick down doors because otherwise I'm restricting the player? Hell no.
By 4E rules, a low-str character can indeed kick down doors, or indeed punch through walls. So your point is?



Yes, it is. Metagaming is the use of out-of-character knowledge about the game to affect in-character choices.
Yeah, like having read the monstrous manual and using those stats even though your character doesn't know them. Making rational choices when building your character isn't metagaming.


Int and Cha. They're dump stats because the GM is, on a regular if not constant basis, allowing those players to avoid having to roleplay their low Int and Cha.
No, they're dump stats because the stats do not do that. The charisma stat doesn't mean your character is pretty or likable or even social, it means he is good at the attack powers of certain classes, and gets such a small bonus to diplomacy and bluff (as compared to "trained or not" and the 1d20 roll) that you rarely even notice it in play.

Eurantien
2009-06-24, 04:40 AM
Well done, that's again precisely the opposite of what we were talking about.


By 4E rules, a low-str character can indeed kick down doors, or indeed punch through walls. So your point is?


Yeah, like having read the monstrous manual and using those stats even though your character doesn't know them. Making rational choices when building your character isn't metagaming.


No, they're dump stats because the stats do not do that. The charisma stat doesn't mean your character is pretty or likable or even social, it means he is good at the attack powers of certain classes, and gets such a small bonus to diplomacy and bluff (as compared to "trained or not" and the 1d20 roll) that you rarely even notice it in play.

Metagaming CAN be stuff like how you design your character. There's a fine line between clever design and metagaming. I guess it all depends on who your character is. If you're character's SUPPOSED to be un-charistmatic, than 8 charisma's just fine, but if you're a nobleman's son-turned fighter who knows his way through the intrigues of court politics, you really need at least average charisma to pull that character plot off. Technically, charisma DOES mean your character is more likeable, or at least has a more forceful personality, it's just rarely reflected in-game.

mrmaxmrmax
2009-06-24, 10:55 AM
Ever run into any riddles? Characters with high Intelligence have a decent chance of getting hints from a fair GM. Characters with low Intelligence don't.

I don't think I've ever had a fair GM, thankfully. No matter what our stats when a GM has run a riddle that we just aren't getting, hints start dropping in. This has nothing to do with intelligence scores; rather, it is the GMs desire not to sit around for thirty minutes while the players get bored and frustrated and no closer to an answer.

Maxwell.

Ninetail
2009-06-26, 07:04 PM
Well done, that's again precisely the opposite of what we were talking about.

The opposite of what you were talking about, maybe.



By 4E rules, a low-str character can indeed kick down doors, or indeed punch through walls. So your point is?


The word you missed: easily. Now stop being intentionally obtuse.



Yeah, like having read the monstrous manual and using those stats even though your character doesn't know them. Making rational choices when building your character isn't metagaming.


Not at the time, perhaps. But it certainly can be later. If you're using information your character should not be privy to, you are metagaming.

If your character has an Intelligence of 8 and you're playing him as a genius, you are using information your character should not be privy to, pretty much by the definition of "intelligence."



No, they're dump stats because the stats do not do that. The charisma stat doesn't mean your character is pretty or likable or even social, it means he is good at the attack powers of certain classes, and gets such a small bonus to diplomacy and bluff (as compared to "trained or not" and the 1d20 roll) that you rarely even notice it in play.

Um... a high Charisma stat does mean your character is persuasive (which is all I claimed -- I said nothing about pretty, likable, or social, and again, stop doing that). That's right out of the PHB. Page 17.

The stats do not mean things only in combat. There's a whole non-combat aspect to the game, too. If your character has a low Intelligence, it doesn't just mean he sucks at Int-based powers -- it means he's slow on the uptake, or uneducated, or has a disability of some sort. If your character has a low Charisma, it means he is not persuasive or influential; he may be a natural wallflower, lacking in the social graces, lacking in self-confidence, or just have a funny voice that makes it hard for anyone to take him seriously. That -- the reason -- is up to the player. The effect is inherent to the stat.

If you ignore some of the effects of a stat, you are within your rights as GM. But you shouldn't be surprised when that stat then becomes a better dump stat. If you ignore encumbrance, you choose to make Strength less important in your game. (And I for one do ignore it -- I just eyeball what's "reasonable" for the character, given his Strength, and handwave the rest.) If you ignore the functions of Intelligence or Charisma, you choose to make them better dump stats. It's not the system. It's you.

Perhaps you think an Intelligence of 8 is not that big a deal. On a 3-18 bell curve with a 10.5 average, though, 8 places you in the lowest quarter. (Actually about 26%, but who's counting?) 12, on the other hand, would place you in the top quarter.

If you've chosen Int 8 for your character, you are saying that 3 out of 4 people, give or take, are smarter than your character. If you've chosen Int 10, you're saying that your character is as smart as the next guy. If you've chosen Int 12, you are saying that your character is smarter than 3 out of 4 people.

You're free to choose what you like, but you should roleplay what you choose. When you're in the least intelligent quarter of the human population, you should not be coming up with brilliant plans, solving riddles, and performing higher math and physics calculations on a regular basis. If you are, you're metagaming, and the GM has every right to call you on it.

Ninetail
2009-06-26, 07:07 PM
I don't think I've ever had a fair GM, thankfully. No matter what our stats when a GM has run a riddle that we just aren't getting, hints start dropping in. This has nothing to do with intelligence scores; rather, it is the GMs desire not to sit around for thirty minutes while the players get bored and frustrated and no closer to an answer.


The better way to handle that, IMO, would be to have an alternative approach, so that the riddle is not a roadblock... and to state as much, should the players fixate on the riddle.

If the riddle is part of a railroad such that it must be solved in order to proceed with the game, then I would agree -- but I'd also say that the riddle shouldn't be used at all, in that case.