4e Sorcerer

[theonesin]

We're going to be starting a 4e campaign in the fall, and I'm looking for some advice.

We're starting at level 5 using 22-point buy for stats, and currently the party is set to have a Bard and a Wizard (specializing in illusions, I guess). I've wanted to play a Sorcerer ever since the PHBII came out, but with our party as it is, I kind of fear for our safety if we don't have a Defender (We MAY get another player in to play one, but we don't have one right now. The DM likes the idea of a Swordmage for an all Arcane party).

I usually think of Sorcerers as the kind of class to stay back and nuke things, which given a party of a Bard and Wizard doesn't seem the safest. But in some of the threads I've looked through, Dragon Sorcerers seem to be more melee-oriented, which to me would help balance out the party. So I'm looking for advice on building such a character, or anything else that might help given the situation. Thanks.

[Thajocoth]

We're going to be starting a 4e campaign in the fall, and I'm looking for some advice.

We're starting at level 5 using 22-point buy for stats, and currently the party is set to have a Bard and a Wizard (specializing in illusions, I guess). I've wanted to play a Sorcerer ever since the PHBII came out, but with our party as it is, I kind of fear for our safety if we don't have a Defender (We MAY get another player in to play one, but we don't have one right now. The DM likes the idea of a Swordmage for an all Arcane party).

I usually think of Sorcerers as the kind of class to stay back and nuke things, which given a party of a Bard and Wizard doesn't seem the safest. But in some of the threads I've looked through, Dragon Sorcerers seem to be more melee-oriented, which to me would help balance out the party. So I'm looking for advice on building such a character, or anything else that might help given the situation. Thanks.

You can play with any particular role missing of the four. There's actually a Dragon article specifically about this scenario... (Dragon 373, March 2009, Page 27) With any role missing, your party is very much at a disadvantage. With no Defender, even if you play a melee based character, there's nothing to stop the enemy from marching right up to the Bard. Defender & Leader are the most difficult roles to travel without. Doable, just difficult. Without a Striker though, your damage is so low that fights will take much longer. It will start to drag on a bit...

Since you want to play a Sorcerer, I say you should. Definitely. You just need to compensate for the lack of a Defender.

The easiest way to compensate is to get a 4th player. Failing that...

Players can multiclass into Swordmage to mark a target once per encounter. By doing this, a player A with more HP can take the heat off a player B with low HP, or at least can make it harder for an enemy to hit ally B. Aegis of Ensnarement is a good choice for this as it causes the enemy to grant combat advantage if they disobey the mark, which should help take them down more quickly. (Though, any party member with a good Int should take Aegis of Shielding instead to simply prevent some damage.) The Bard can also multiclass into several other defenders to get more marks... But, they shouldn't take too many. Too much heat on the healer is bad. I would recommend they multiclass into some other Leaders though for more heals.

The party's Bard should also take the Melee Training feat with Cha so they can make melee attacks when enemies come up to them. You and the Wizard can take a better feat: Reaper's Touch. This allows you to use Acid Orb in melee range as a melee basic attack and the Wizard to do the same with Magic Missle.

One thing the Wizard might consider is being a Summoner Wizard. With a secondary stat of Con, they have more HP and they'll get Daily powers that summon allies onto the battlefield. The first one at level 1 is a Fire Warrior. For the Bard, I would recommend Prescience, as that allows them to turn one hit on you or the Wizard into a miss once per round if the roll is close enough.

I've played a no-Leader party once before and, while more difficult, nobody died. This is the same sort of thing. I wish you the best of luck!

EDIT: Just a note, if any of you decide you had a Deva ancestor, you can (with a feat) get a bonus Daily power that, as a Minor Action causes enemies to take a -2 penalty to hit you until either you become bloodied or the encounter ends. (You also become a light source for the duration.) Might be useful since you've gotta come up with your own ways of not getting hit. Some of the White Lotus feats might be useful here too.

Edit2: I recommend Cosmic Magic for you. The three phases of the moon abilities it gives are all things that will help you if you wind up in melee.

[SadisticFishing]

Errr.. the Swordmage multiclass does not give marks.

Playing a Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer with Student of the Sword would probably be decent. Take Dragon Defender (whatever it's called, from Arcane Power) and in paragon you can tank.

Having no defender is icky, but your party will have virtually no damage with a swordmage... Make sure everyone stays suvivable. Staff Wizard, Valorous Bard, Draconic Sorcerer... pick of defensive feats (up to and including Two Weapon Defense)... This is doable.

[Starsinger]

If you want to be a melee sorcerer, be either a Storm or a Wild sorcerer, you'll want the Dex for AC. But there's a fantastic feat you should look for called Sorcerous Blade Channeling which lets you use Ranged powers through your Dagger implement, in melee range, as a melee attack so you don't provoke OAs. Therefore, you can be an Arcane Rogue of sorts.

[Tengu_temp]

If you want to be a melee sorcerer, be either a Storm or a Wild sorcerer, you'll want the Dex for AC.

Dragon and Cosmic sorcerers use strength for AC.

[Starsinger]

Dragon and Cosmic sorcerers use strength for AC.

Shhh... I've been up all night, I forgot that part. :smallredface:

[Kurald Galain]

I kind of fear for our safety if we don't have a Defender
That's not necessary. You can easily play 4E without a defender (or indeed, without a controller or without a striker; it's just the lack of a healer that makes things messy).

Depending on how the wizard is played, though, you may have an overlap in roles there. Wizards are also quite good at staying back and nuking things.

[Thajocoth]

Errr.. the Swordmage multiclass does not give marks.

Playing a Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer with Student of the Sword would probably be decent. Take Dragon Defender (whatever it's called, from Arcane Power) and in paragon you can tank.

Having no defender is icky, but your party will have virtually no damage with a swordmage... Make sure everyone stays suvivable. Staff Wizard, Valorous Bard, Draconic Sorcerer... pick of defensive feats (up to and including Two Weapon Defense)... This is doable.

Arcane Aegis, Arcane Power. It requires that you first take another Swordmage multiclass feat though... Multiclass Paladin might be better since it's just one feat for a mark, assuming the players meet the prereqs (Unlikely).

[Tengu_temp]

Arcane Aegis, Arcane Power. It requires that you first take another Swordmage multiclass feat though...

Correction - it requires paragon multiclassing as a swordmage. Since intelligence is not very useful to sorcerers, this is generally a bad idea, not to mention available only from level 11.


Multiclass Paladin might be better since it's just one feat for a mark, assuming the players meet the prereqs (Unlikely).

13 strength and charisma? How can you not meet those prerequesites as a dragon sorcerer (the most tanky one)?

[Thajocoth]

13 strength and charisma? How can you not meet those prerequesites as a dragon sorcerer (the most tanky one)?

I wasn't referring only to his character. I was referring to all three of them getting some way to take the heat off one another when one of them gets low on hp by applying a mark. For him? Sure. For the Wizard? Not likely. For the Bard? Probably not, but maybe.

And wouldn't Cosmic work better at being tankish? Their moon phases all seem to help in melee.

[Tengu_temp]

Ah, a fair point. Well, I think there's no need to go out of your way to designated defenders in a group where everyone is almost equally tanky, not when it would hurt your other choices - especially since tanking is also about clever positioning, not only marking the enemies.

Not to mention that even if they want to have a designated defender, all the party members having defender powers kinda defeats the point, don't you think?

And Cosmic seems less tanky than Dragon - while its phases all active all the time, while dragon's scales activate when you're bloodied, only one of them actually helps with melee, the other two discourage enemies from attacking you. Dragon is also the only sorcerer option with bonuses to close attacks.

[Mando Knight]

Correction - it requires paragon multiclassing as a swordmage. Since intelligence is not very useful to sorcerers, this is generally a bad idea, not to mention available only from level 11.
I agree. Paladin multiclass is much better for a Dragon Sorcerer.

13 strength and charisma? How can you not meet those prerequesites as a dragon sorcerer (the most tanky one)?
Agreed. Go full-out Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer. Convince the DM to use Scales of War backgrounds to get Auspicious Birth or Born Under a Bad Sign to get your Charisma to your starting HP rather than your Constitution, and grab Leather and Hide armor proficiencies ASAP to help your AC. Get Parrying Dagger proficiency for its defensive property. Specialize in either dealing as many different kinds of elemental damage as possible, or in dealing a single element's damage.

Here's an example of a level 11 pyromaniac Dragonborn Sorcerer with decent AC (for a Striker):
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Pyro, level 11
Dragonborn, Sorcerer, Dragonsoul Heir
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Dragon Soul: Dragon Soul Fire

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 26 Fort: 22 Reflex: 20 Will: 24
HP: 83 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +9, Endurance +12, Athletics +15, Intimidate +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5, History +6, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +4, Stealth +7, Streetwise +10, Thievery +7

FEATS
Level 1: Draconic Spellcaster
Level 2: True Dragon's Soul
Level 4: Arcane Spellfury
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 8: Implement Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 10: Weapon Proficiency (Parrying dagger)
Level 11: War Wizardry

POWERS
Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer at-will 1: Burning Spray
Sorcerer daily 1: Dazzling Ray
Sorcerer daily 5: Palest Flames
Sorcerer daily 9: Prime the Fire
Sorcerer encounter 1: Explosive Pyre
Sorcerer encounter 3: Flame Spiral
Sorcerer encounter 7: Blazing Bolts
Sorcerer utility 10: Invert Resistance
Sorcerer utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
Sorcerer utility 6: Sudden Scales

ITEMS
Wyrmtooth Dagger Dagger +3, Summoned Drowmesh +3, Cape of the Mountebank +2, Parrying Parrying dagger +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

And here's a slightly different, more defensively-focused (level 5) Sorcerer:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 5
Dragonborn, Sorcerer
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Dragon Soul: Dragon Soul Fire

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 20 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 19
HP: 50 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, History +8, Endurance +8, Athletics +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +8, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +1, Stealth +3, Streetwise +6, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Sorcerous Blade Channeling
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 4: Weapon Proficiency (Parrying dagger)

POWERS
Sorcerer at-will 1: Burning Spray
Sorcerer at-will 1: Dragonfrost
Sorcerer daily 1: Lightning Breath
Sorcerer daily 5: Moon and the Stars
Sorcerer encounter 1: Tempest Breath
Sorcerer encounter 3: Poisonous Exhalation
Sorcerer utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle

ITEMS
Parrying Parrying dagger +1, Winged Dagger Dagger +1, Magic Leather Armor +2, Collar of Recovery +1
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

[SadisticFishing]

Parrying Dagger is actually a bad idea >_> Don't do that. Two Weapon Defense is better, because of Dual Implement Spellcaster... and you're probably taking Reaper's Touch and/or Sorcerous Blade Channeling, so Two-Weapon Opportunity is a great Striker feat.

Paladin Multiclass is not a bad idea at all, Wrath of the Gods is a great level 6 Utility - but you also are giving up Draconic Arrogance, which imho, is INCREDIBLE. As incredible as you can get while still being balanced.

As far as class features go, Cosmic Magic is probably slightly better than Dragon - but all the powers' Rider effects are far more... melee oriented, when you're Dragon.

[theonesin]

An update on the situation. Currently, we only have two players, as for certain reasons the other one might not be able to play.

That said, the DM is giving me (Sorcerer) a Paladin lackey to control, and the Wizard a Cleric lackey to control, both of which will always be two levels below our own characters (so they're level 3 at the start). The DM is making the lackeys himself though.

With that in mind, I no longer have to deal with making my Sorcerer too defensive to make up for the lack of a Defender, and can focus on what I like to do most: make things go boom.

[istar]

I'm playing a 4e Wild Magic Sorceror in a Low Magic campaign. Essentially if you took the concept of The Weave being destroyed from FR because a Runscribed Dracolich that was once an epic Ancient Black Wyrm killed the gods and the background count idea from Shadowrun that would be this world. Magic still exists...in certain places. When my character isn't in one of those places he becomes increasingly more insane with the distance, having seizures and hallucinations. Personally, I love the Sorceror class (if only the Sword Mage wasn't so amazing...).

With the Book of Arcane Power released, Sorcerors got oh-so-much better. Storm Mages are just sickeningly powerful, and the Cosmic Mage is more tactical.

[Mando Knight]

Parrying Dagger is actually a bad idea >_> Don't do that. Two Weapon Defense is better, because of Dual Implement Spellcaster... and you're probably taking Reaper's Touch and/or Sorcerous Blade Channeling, so Two-Weapon Opportunity is a great Striker feat.

They stack, and Parrying Dagger is both
1.) a Dagger and
2.) one feat cheaper than TWD.

[Burley]

They stack, and Parrying Dagger is both
1.) a Dagger and
2.) one feat cheaper than TWD.

That's the thing, right there, though. A parrying dagger is treated as a dagger for Rogues, according to the note on page 9 of the AV. Unless there was something further released, a parrying dagger would be considered a light blade to a sorcerer, not an 'implementable' dagger.
It'd be best to wield a Staff of Ruin in hand A and a Defensive Staff in hand B, then take the Dual Implement feat.


With the Book of Arcane Power released, Sorcerors got oh-so-much better. Storm Mages are just sickeningly powerful, and the Cosmic Mage is more tactical.
I love the sorcerer class in 4e. It is my new favorite class, and I pray for the day that I may play a Storm Sorcerer. However, I don't see that as being "sickeningly powerful." Powerful, yes. But, I see them as being great sub-controllers. The fact that you can drop Area Burst 1 powers on an ally's head and not hurt him is amazing. But, the class features are a bit weaker than than the other sources. In my experience, you're gonna be hit by fire and cold more than lightning and thunder, especially at high levels.

[SadisticFishing]

They're not nearly as good Single Target as any other striker. But if you need to take down multiple guys.. zomg <3 plus you get a lot of buffs. I love buffs.

Parrying Daggers are not daggers. Except for the Rogue Weapon Talent class feature - doesn't even work with Daggermaster!

I disagree that Storm Mages are that powerful. I honestly believe Cosmic can do the most damage, with Dragon being the most survivable and most... useful. More pushes, slides, prone, real status conditions, and no relying on even/odd numbers.

Storm is amazing, class feature-wise, but I really don't like the riders much. At all. Same with Cosmic.

[Burley]

Now why didn't I think of that? :smalltongue:

[SSGoW]

if he wants an implement that does great damage then he should get a bastard sword with mage weapon property >.> one handed weapon and its treated as if being a dagger (thus the implement part should go with it atleast as a DM i would allow it)

[Mando Knight]

That's the thing, right there, though. A parrying dagger is treated as a dagger for Rogues, according to the note on page 9 of the AV. Unless there was something further released, a parrying dagger would be considered a light blade to a sorcerer, not an 'implementable' dagger.

Huh. So it does (page 10, though). I had assumed it counted as a dagger for all purposes without checking the book first. :smallredface:

[SadisticFishing]

if he wants an implement that does great damage then he should get a bastard sword with mage weapon property >.> one handed weapon and its treated as if being a dagger (thus the implement part should go with it atleast as a DM i would allow it)

Errr... what? This is a bad idea of several counts, sorry. He doesn't use any [W].

By the way, Reaper's Touch is an AMAZING feat.

[theonesin]

So, any ideas on the kind of Sorcerer (like melee range or long range) that would compliment the party I described (Paladin, Wizard, Cleric)? I have no problems playing anything; I just want to make things go boom.

[Burley]

Play a ranged sorcerer, totally. You don't need to be in the fray any more than the wizard. Take Sorcerous Blade Channeling just in case you get in a tight spot, but really, Storm Walk will get you outta most tight spots.
I suggest taking Chaos Magic as your source, because you get Chaos Bolt's super fun special function.
Or, Storm Magic, if you really want to be a striker-controller. But, depending on the wizard's build, he may feel like you're stepping on his toes. Or sucking on them. I dunno... It's your group. :smalltongue:

[Kurald Galain]

So, any ideas on the kind of Sorcerer (like melee range or long range) that would compliment the party I described (Paladin, Wizard, Cleric)?

Take high charisma, ranks in bluff, and keep saying how awesome divine classes and bearded bookwurms are... :smalltongue:

[Burley]

Take high charisma, ranks in bluff, and keep saying how awesome divine classes and bearded bookwurms are... :smalltongue:

"I really admire that you have three important stats instead of two, Paladin. That shows courage."
"You're so lucky, Cleric. You're multiclass feature is so... intricate. I mean, do I heal once a day, or twice per encounter once per day? It's so mystifying."
"Wizard, you are so much cooler than me. I totally think its awesome that you can't use your best class abilities on your strongest powers. No need to show off, right? And, that wand thing, with the focus on Dex for no reason other reason? Genious. But, you do have the high Intelligence, so you know all that, don't you? Haha! You."
"You know why this is the best group ever? Because you guys have all been adventuring way longer than me. Sure, my rules make a little more sense, and I don't have any useless class abilities, and I will always have useful feats to take at every level, but you guys... You guys have tenure. That's respectable."

They killed him in the night.

[SSGoW]

Errr... what? This is a bad idea of several counts, sorry. He doesn't use any [W].


By the way, Reaper's Touch is an AMAZING feat.

basic melee attack for AoO

[Burley]

basic melee attack for AoO

Yes. That is the point of the Reaper's Touch feat. It turns Acid Orb and Dragonfrost into Melee Basic Attacks.
As long as that feat is allowed at your table, you have no nead of anything other than implements and great stats.

[SSGoW]

if he will have bonuses str (depending on his build even if he will be a nuke) the mage weapon will free up a feat slot and the weapon on a bastard sword will only cost like 520 + cost of bastard sword (like 550gp).... not only will enemies think he is a melee character and the ones that usually attack casters shouldn't start off against him thus giving him time to attack

you could get a feat that helps in dealing dmg with the spells you will be nuke'n with or for multiclassing and still get a good +1 weapon that *should* count as an implement (prof as a dagger) plus starting out as level 5 should allow a character to start with this weapon.

[Burley]

if he will have bonuses str (depending on his build even if he will be a nuke) the mage weapon will free up a feat slot and the weapon on a bastard sword will only cost like 520 + cost of bastard sword (like 550gp).... not only will enemies think he is a melee character and the ones that usually attack casters shouldn't start off against him thus giving him time to attack

you could get a feat that helps in dealing dmg with the spells you will be nuke'n with or for multiclassing and still get a good +1 weapon that *should* count as an implement (prof as a dagger) plus starting out as level 5 should allow a character to start with this weapon.

Okay. Wait. Break this down for me: Why would you want to make attacks with your secondary stat instead of your primary stat? Charisma should be higher than strength, so, if you want a melee attack, you want to attack with you hightest stat.
A 1st level Dragon Sorc build would have 18 Cha and probably a 16 Str. When assuming you have a +1 implement (cheaper than the Mage's Weapon) you would have a +5 to hit with Acid Orb or Dragon Frost (which target NADs and the latter has an additional effect). The Mage Sword would have a +7 (+3 str +1 magic item +3 Prof) against AC (which is usually 2-4 higher than NADs). But, you've spent extra money for a weapon that IS NOT AN IMPIMENT and takes up your primary hand and is useful only for AoO.
Is it for damage? Because 1d10+4 (sword) is not as good as 1d8/1d10+8 (dragon frost/acid orb).
Most sorcerer feats focus on daggers, and Dual Implement Proficiency is the nectar of sorcerous gods.
Take Reaper's Touch, because you've got feats to spare.

Edit: Also, why would you want enemies to think your arcane striker is a melee character? So that they hit him? Whut?

[Mando Knight]

if he will have bonuses str (depending on his build even if he will be a nuke) the mage weapon will free up a feat slot and the weapon on a bastard sword will only cost like 520 + cost of bastard sword (like 550gp).... not only will enemies think he is a melee character and the ones that usually attack casters shouldn't start off against him thus giving him time to attack

Magic item costs do not work that way. It costs a flat 520 gp for a level 2 magic weapon, no exception.

[Nahal]

Play a ranged sorcerer, totally. You don't need to be in the fray any more than the wizard. Take Sorcerous Blade Channeling just in case you get in a tight spot, but really, Storm Walk will get you outta most tight spots.
I suggest taking Chaos Magic as your source, because you get Chaos Bolt's super fun special function.
Or, Storm Magic, if you really want to be a striker-controller. But, depending on the wizard's build, he may feel like you're stepping on his toes. Or sucking on them. I dunno... It's your group. :smalltongue:

I've found Chaos magic also does a passable job of controller, especially if you take Psychic Lock once you hit Paragon tier. I've got an epic sorc that's been having all sorts of fun with the constant debuffing

[Burley]

Nahal, I agree so hard. I had a Chaoserer who focused on shockwave type powers. So much fun!

[SSGoW]

Magic item costs do not work that way. It costs a flat 520 gp for a level 2 magic weapon, no exception.

sweet then it cost even less and you still get a feat for other things (maybe to boost implement usage (whihc the mage weapon would be)

also i forget the roles of monsters right now but certain ones focus on attack certain types of characters if you have a decent/nice DM then he/she wont autopilot the monsters to a mage who doesn't look like a mage. get it?

[Burley]

sweet then it cost even less and you still get a feat for other things (maybe to boost implement usage (whihc the mage weapon would be)

also i forget the roles of monsters right now but certain ones focus on attack certain types of characters if you have a decent/nice DM then he/she wont autopilot the monsters to a mage who doesn't look like a mage. get it?

Being proficient in a weapon does not put that weapon on your implement list. You would have to take Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades) for it to be an implement. Besides, the Mage's Weapon's encounter power is only useful if you multi-class and power swap.

Monster roles are fairly equal to PC roles. You focus on what will die first, and try to keep the big guy from getting the guy that deals all the damage. So, you have your big guy in front of your small guy, while the small guy kills the guys that will kill all of you.
The other guys will send their big guy at your big guy, because he looks like he would destroy their little guys. If you look like a big guy, the big guy will come at you.
If you have a DM that doesn't want to kill your character, s/he won't sent Brutes and Soldiers right into your striker's face. Unless your striker needs to be taught how to stay outta the freakin' way and blast from the back.

Sorcerers have a good way to get good OAs, and it is a feat. You should be focusing on using sorcerer powers (which is when your striker damage actually applies) instead of slashing around with weapons.
And before you even start thinking, "Well, I have a heavy blade that should be an implement, I could take Heavy Blade Opportunity then get my sorcerer powers as AOs," ignoring the fact that you'd have to boost STR and DEX, you can have all that without gimping your character for the good feat.

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, you can't even use a Bastard Sword as an implement, as it's neither a Dagger nor a staff.

In addition, Reaper's Touch MBAs are FAR better than Bastard Sword ones, whether you are using Acid Orb or Dragonfrost.

By the way, your strength and charisma should be approximately equal. 18 each.

[SSGoW]

mage weapon says prof as dagger so one could assume its as easy to use as a dagger thus a sorc would be able to use it as an implement since they use it the same as a regular dagger.

[SadisticFishing]

No, it says you are proficient with it if you are proficient with all simple weapons or the dagger.

I suppose it is possible to misread it that way on purpose, though :P

Anyways, Reaper's Touch is significantly better, AND opens up your weapon slot for something like Jagged Dagger.

[Mando Knight]

mage weapon says prof as dagger so one could assume its as easy to use as a dagger thus a sorc would be able to use it as an implement since they use it the same as a regular dagger.

That's not what the text on the Mage's Weapon description says or means... it grants proficiency in the weapon, meaning that it allows the weapon to be wielded with its full proficiency bonus as a weapon. It does not grant proficiency in its use as an implement. That is a separate feat altogether.

[theonesin]

Yeah, I really think I'll go with a more long-range Sorcerer. The main reason I was thinking of going Dragon was because I didn't know at the time that we'd have another character better suited to keeping the enemy's attention in melee (the Paladin). And as it turns out, I actually wanted my first Sorcerer to be Chaos (at least until Arcane Power came out, but I'm not sure how I feel about the new sources).

[Burley]

Yeah, I really think I'll go with a more long-range Sorcerer. The main reason I was thinking of going Dragon was because I didn't know at the time that we'd have another character better suited to keeping the enemy's attention in melee (the Paladin). And as it turns out, I actually wanted my first Sorcerer to be Chaos (at least until Arcane Power came out, but I'm not sure how I feel about the new sources).

Maybe the flavor isn't for you, but the Storm Source is really great.
I made a comment (maybe in this thread, maybe an older one) about how often an enemy uses electricity or thunder damage against you, or how often it is resisted. After DMing a few 4e sessions, I've found that, at least in the module I'm running, lightning and thunder keywords are showing up with more frequency that fire. Color me surprised!:smallredface:
I know it feels really good to deal a metric craptonne of damage to one enemy. I know. I feel you here. But, really, when you're dealing so much damage, its okay to split it up. Look at chaos bolt:
When you hit with the first, and roll an even number, you get a chance for a second attack, and then a third and fourth, etc.. That's pretty cool, but the damage for the secondary attacks is less than the damage of the first. Not much, but some. But, since you're adding 6-8 to damage from just your ability bonuses, those few extra points aren't much of a hassle.
Now, look at the Storm Sorcerer. Exact same scheme for abilities. Highest Charisma, High Dex, give yourself a good Con for HP, just like the Chaos. Now, imagine you can hit up to 9 guys at range with an at-will. You can even drop it on the paladins head, when he's being swarmed by enemies, and choose to not hurt him! Yes, the damage dice is d4, and that's pretty pitiful. But, you should still have that extra 6-8 damage. That's about 10-12 points of damage on average per enemy, but that adds up with multiple attacks. It helps you control and lend aid to the defender.

So, lots of damage against one feller, or moderate damage against a bunch? Also, not taking Thunder Leap, no matter what build you have, is a sin.

[SadisticFishing]

Thunder and Lightning, by the book, aren't that common - Fire, on the other hand, is.

The Storm Source has an awesome built in shield, but like I said earlier, it lacks awesome riders. Wild and Dragon are the way to go for cool powers, imho, albeit not for cool class features.

Storm also has AMAZING awesome feats.

[Burley]

Thunder and Lightning, by the book, aren't that common - Fire, on the other hand, is.

The Storm Source has an awesome built in shield, but like I said earlier, it lacks awesome riders. Wild and Dragon are the way to go for cool powers, imho, albeit not for cool class features.

Storm also has AMAZING awesome feats.
Check out any monster power than pushes and it's either force or thunder. Most that pull or slide are lightning.

Storm does have great feats. Really great feats.
Speaking of feats, what level is that feat that lets you not roll to hit something in a certain square of an area attack? It's paragon, right?
Or, you could be a Storm Sorcerer.
Really, area spells have always been lame in my book, until now. Plus, with the advent of the "No OAs on Ranged/Area Attacks" feat. You can use them right on your own head.
Then, check out Coordinated Explosion. If the ally is in the area, you get a +1 to hit. The Storm Sorcerer doesn't damage whatever is in the center of the Area. Depending on the exact wording (which I can't check now), you might get a +1 when you blast around an ally.

By the by, are there any items like the Mage's Weapon? I mean, you can sacrifice a power of source X to regain a power from source Y? THAT would be great to throw on a Sorcerer's Dagger.

Sorcerers are so great. I love them.

[SadisticFishing]

Not roll to hit? Never heard of that feat...

Some guy did the math once. Fire > Necrotic > the rest, for resists. Poison is damn good too...

You, as a DM, just like lightning and thunder powers - and that's fine.

[theonesin]

So, I got a chance to use the official character builder and attempted to make a decent character. I'm posting it now to see what you guys think, and see if there's anything I can do to improve it.

Level 5 Drow, Sorcerer
Spell Source: Wild Magic

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 13, Dex 19, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 19.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 16 Fort: 13 Reflex: 16 Will: 18
HP: 45 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Intimidate +13, Diplomacy +11, Bluff +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +3, Heal +1, History +2, Insight +1, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +2, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6, Athletics +2

FEATS
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 2: Implement Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)

POWERS
Sorcerer at-will 1: Chaos Bolt
Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer encounter 1: Bedeviling Burst
Sorcerer daily 1: Ice Javelins
Sorcerer utility 2: Focused Chaos
Sorcerer encounter 3: Ice Dragon's Teeth
Sorcerer daily 5: Thunder Leap


In addition, my DM has given me a choice of two item setups:

1 item at level +2 or +3
1 item at level
2 item at level -1
1,000 gold
Armor at level or lower

or

2 items at level +1
2 items of your level - 1
Armor at level or lower
1,000 gold

[Mando Knight]

If you ever think that you'll need to make a melee attack, I'd recommend Focused Expertise (Dagger) (Dragon 375) over Implement Expertise (Light Blades). Also do so if you intend on multiclassing to Rogue later on. Which you easily could, given that you've got high Dexterity.

[theonesin]

I am considering multiclassing as a Rogue, specifically for the Daggermaster Paragon Path.

[Yakk]

Go with:
1 item at level 8
1 item at level 5
2 items at level 4
1000 gold
Armor at level 5 or under

---

While leather armor is tempting (+2 AC! One feat!), cloth armor enchantments are often better for casters than leather armor enchantments.

And there are some tasty arcane powers to boost your damage output. :-) Heck, good old White Lotus Riposte to make your targets think hard about attacking you (deal 4 damage to anyone who you hit with an at-will power that attacks you before the start of your next turn).

What is your background?

Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall -- doesn't that suck if you aren't Cosmic Magic? (just a ranged burst 1d4 damage attack). Or am I thinking of a different one?

[theonesin]

The DM isn't allowing Backgrounds.

[Burley]

Not roll to hit? Never heard of that feat...

Some guy did the math once. Fire > Necrotic > the rest, for resists. Poison is damn good too...

You, as a DM, just like lightning and thunder powers - and that's fine.

Sorry. What I meant was that you don't target the a certain square. The feat I was looking for is EPIC tier and Wizard only. Spell Accuracy lets you drop spells on your allies and not hit them.
Then again, you can be a Storm Sorcerer and omit the center square as a rider effect. It's lame until you use it. (I play tested it just to see, and it is more useful that you'd first think.)

Also, TheOneSin, make sure you run the Rogue Multiclass ->Daggermaster idea by your DM. RAW it works. RAI it probably shouldn't. As far as optimizing online, there isn't a problem. If you try to bring it to the table, your DM may pop a blood vessel.

[Shadow_Elf]

Okay, I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been mentioned.

In arcane power, there is a Paragon Path called Dragon Guardian which basically acts as a close-range AOE mini-defender. With a fighter multiclass and some cool feats like Draconic Arrogance, you can take the heat off your allies in a pinch and draw crowds temporarily with blasts and bursts. It should still play like a mid-ranged blaster when you want it to, but you'll also be very competent in melee. Sorcerous Blade Channeling and Reaper's Touch will also serve you very well.

[theonesin]

What exactly is problematic about Daggermaster?

[Gralamin]

What exactly is problematic about Daggermaster?

Mostly that there is still a large amount of question in the community of how Daggermaster works / should work.

[Edea]

What exactly is problematic about Daggermaster?

The problem's probably Dagger Precision working with powers that don't have the Weapon keyword (i.e. any and all Sorcerer powers channeled through a dagger implement). For some reason, you never really saw much discussion on this when it came to Warlocks (pact blade daggers) or Swordmages (light blades -> daggers); it's Sorcerers that really set this off (probably due to stat matching).

Basically, Dagger Precision's wording is a bit obtuse; 'You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18–20' should IMO be replaced with 'When you make an attack roll with a dagger [while using a power that has the Weapon keyword (add in at your discretion)], that attack roll can score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.' Or something else if my suggestion also has problems with it (uses the word 'roll' too much for my liking); just not what they have written there now.

As previously mentioned, RAW it works just fine, but RAI...well, some GMs are going to say 'No' to it. Main reason: a maximized [W] for a dagger is a measly 4 points (whoopee). Sorcerer powers, however, bypass the dagger's cruddy [W] value. That, plus the fact that Sorcs often roll multiple attacks during their turns, AND they aren't dependent on Combat Advantage/Sneak Attack, means that there will [probably, not mathematically confirmed] be a more significant damage increase. I'd certainly still allow it, though; the rest of the PP is crap IMO, and while Dagger Precision's a decent enough perk, it's not game-breaking even in the hands of a Sorcerer.

[SadisticFishing]

Mhmm. Raw makes perfect sense.

Was a bigger deal pre Sorcerer Implement Mastery. Now, it's just.. there, imho. Always acceptable, until Wizards say no.

[Alteran]

Mhmm. Raw makes perfect sense.

Was a bigger deal pre Sorcerer Implement Mastery. Now, it's just.. there, imho. Always acceptable, until Wizards say no.

Sorcerer Implement Mastery is a stupid, stupid feat. It requires 15 STR and DEX, which means that DEX-based Sorcerers probably won't qualify it. If you don't need STR for class features, then CON is an objectively better ability score to use. This means that Wild and Storm Sorcerers won't want to take any STR. It's likely that Dragon and Cosmic Sorcerers will have some DEX (maybe not 15), since DEX is also better than INT.

Even if you do take it, it only works on rolls 19-20 as opposed to the 18-20 of Daggermaster.

[Burley]

Sorcerer Implement Mastery is a stupid, stupid feat. It requires 15 STR and DEX, which means that DEX-based Sorcerers probably won't qualify it. If you don't need STR for class features, then CON is an objectively better ability score to use. This means that Wild and Storm Sorcerers won't want to take any STR. It's likely that Dragon and Cosmic Sorcerers will have some DEX (maybe not 15), since DEX is also better than INT.

Even if you do take it, it only works on rolls 19-20 as opposed to the 18-20 of Daggermaster.

Yeah, Sorcerer Implement Mastery did it wrong. Even if, IF they meant to say "STR 15 or DEX 15", the 21 Charisma restriction kills. Having Charisma that high is probably a given, but look at the Wizard and Warlock feats that do the same. The prerequisites are 17s. Why does 15,15,21 equal 17,17? I don't get it!

Anyways, TheOneSin, I was a big supporter of the Daggermaster class. I made characters aimed towards it, and I sang its praises in the highest. But, the PHB paragon paths came out before Weapons as Implements really was a big deal. Sure, the Pact Blade... But if anybody was gonna go through the trouble of getting a Pact Blade, it sure as shootin' was gonna have bigger [w] that a d4. The path was designed without the Sorcerer in mind.
If you look through future books, the wording is much, much more careful about saying thing like "when you use a power with the weapon keyword" and "when using a rogue power."
They just didn't expect us to try this.

[theonesin]

I just ran Daggermaster by my DM, and he has approved of it.

[Alteran]

If you look through future books, the wording is much, much more careful about saying thing like "when you use a power with the weapon keyword" and "when using a rogue power."
They just didn't expect us to try this.

They also refuse to errata it. Not because it doesn't need it, but because they don't like to change things if it's at all avoidable. As a DM, I would allow it. Not because I think it was intended to work that way, but because it's pretty much fair. The rest of Daggermaster sucks for Sorcerers. If they're willing to give up a paragon path that is useful in many ways in exchange for a wider crit range, I would allow it. Similarly, I would allow Weapon Focus to add damage to implement attacks. Not because I think it's supposed to work like that, but because Astral Fire et al just suck. If I was running a campaign with an Orbizard or another caster who doesn't use a weapon as an implement, I would just let them take an "Implement Focus" feat to be fair.

Is this off-topic? I guess it sorta is. :smallredface:

[Burley]

If I was running a campaign with an Orbizard or another caster who doesn't use a weapon as an implement, I would just let them take an "Implement Focus" feat to be fair.

Yeah, I snipped it. So what? :smalltongue:

I, on a personal level, agree with this. It doesn't seem fair that a caster should have to take a feat for specific keyword bonuses, and a noncaster can just say "Weapons are stronger now." Especially when the two prerequisite stats may or may not match up with your build. A Dark Pact Warlock will be hard pressed to take the Dark Fury feat, because Con and Wis will probably not both be as high as a 13.
But, on a empirical level, I wonder if it is fair, or percieved to be fair by game designers. They released these feats all in the same book, so, somewhere along the line they must have thought "Giving casters an extra bonus for a single feat is too much." No such feat was made, and since Arcane Power didn't house it, I doubt it will ever be official.
I'd say that the +1 to damage is good, but not necessary, but I don't want Kurald to swoop in and logic out my eyes. Again.
Make the homebrew if you want, but I think most groups just said "There isn't one, and that sucks, but, oh well." (There does need to be a feat for Poison damage though...)

[theonesin]

So, anymore advice on my build? Like the best feats to go along with Daggermaster? Or if there are any other noteworthy paths for a Wild Sorcerer?

[Alteran]

But, on a empirical level, I wonder if it is fair, or percieved to be fair by game designers. They released these feats all in the same book, so, somewhere along the line they must have thought "Giving casters an extra bonus for a single feat is too much." No such feat was made, and since Arcane Power didn't house it, I doubt it will ever be official.

I have certainly thought of this before. If we're going to make this change, why not make more? Why not take the whole game and change it to how we like it? Houseruling is one thing, and homebrew is another, but this would be a more major change. If suddenly the rules don't bind me, I would feel a little strange still playing the game. Wizards generally knows what they're doing, and changing everything to how I feel it should be may be sort of stepping away from the game.

So yes, I know what you mean. If some things aren't fair...so what? Part of me thinks it's very important to maintain the illusion that the rules determine how I play this game. Because really, they don't. If I don't want to follow them, I don't have to. But then it stops being the same game, and far more responsibility is put on my shoulders. If I want to tweak every little thing to make the game the way I want it, then maybe I should just make my own game and stop pretending to play this one. That's why I tend to just accept rules as-is, even if some things aren't perfectly balanced.

Feats, I'll observe, are the things that I change the most. I don't feel bad about tweaking feats, as they're already less core to the ruleset. They are accessories that can make or break a character, but they have less impact on the game than, say, class features. Since they are already additional things meant to add customization, I feel it's safer to alter them.

Now I'm thinking this may deserve its own topic. Sorry for the derail, OP. :smallsigh:

[Burley]

So, anymore advice on my build? Like the best feats to go along with Daggermaster? Or if there are any other noteworthy paths for a Wild Sorcerer?

The Arcance Power book has a couple really cool paths for the sorcerer. The Primordial Sorcerer gives you a bonus effect if your Wild Soul damage type is Fire, Cold, Lightning or... Acid(?). If you've taken the Disciplined Wild Soul feat, it increases your odds of getting at least one of these add ons.
There is also, in Arcane Power, there is a path based around Cold Spells. I personally, think it's awesome. Most people will say that it is not. But, they're... not correct.

[Alteran]

The Arcance Power book has a couple really cool paths for the sorcerer. The Primordial Sorcerer gives you a bonus effect if your Wild Soul damage type is Fire, Cold, Lightning or... Acid(?). If you've taken the Disciplined Wild Soul feat, it increases your odds of getting at least one of these add ons.
There is also, in Arcane Power, there is a path based around Cold Spells. I personally, think it's awesome. Most people will say that it is not. But, they're... not correct.

I'm not a huge fan of the first one, but it has some neat flavour. I don't like the Wild Soul path that much in general, and the idea that I can lose out on a path feature for an entire day is not something I like the sound of.

The cold path (Blizzard Mage) is mediocre until you reach 20th level. The level 20 daily is just incredible. I wouldn't suggest choosing this path unless you're starting at level 20 or higher, or you'll reach it soon.

[Draz74]

The cold path (Blizzard Mage) is mediocre until you reach 20th level. The level 20 daily is just incredible. I wouldn't suggest choosing this path unless you're starting at level 20 or higher, or you'll reach it soon.

Heh. This, taken out of context, brings back great WarCraft II memories. :smallsmile:

[theonesin]

So more or less, Daggermaster is the way to go for a Wild Sorcerer?

Any particular feats I should look into to optimize that?

[Alteran]

If you crit on an 18-20, Devastating Critical might actually be worth it. I'd probably pick up a vicious weapon with a staff of ruin in your off-hand, so you get d12 crit dice and the static damage boost from the staff of ruin. Obviously, if you do this then you'll want to take Dual Implement Spellcaster. But really, that's a feat you should be taking anyways.

Edit: Focused Expertise: Dagger and Weapon Focus: Light Blade are also good choices.

[theonesin]

Should I still take that Armor Proficiency Leather feat, or would that feat be better spent elsewhere?

[Yakk]

Should I still take that Armor Proficiency Leather feat, or would that feat be better spent elsewhere?
That kind of question requires that we know the nature of the rest of the party, and their builds.

If they can keep you mostly safe from melee, or heal you if hurt, then AC is less important than extra damage/status/etc output.

[theonesin]

The rest of the party is a Swordsage, Bard, Wizard (supposedly specializing in illusions), and Cleric (the Cleric is likely to be level 3 instead of 5 as we're using using that character for healing purposes. The DM or other players will control it, but not really "play" that character). I don't know anything about the Bard or Wizard's builds. Here are the Swordsage and Cleric builds (as I know them now. Pretty sure they haven't changed):

Githyanki Swordmage
AC:23
Hp: 63

Initiative: +4

Str: 10
Con:19
Dex:10
Int:20
Wis:11
Cha:8

Powers:
Sword Burst
Booming Blade
Chilling Blow
Lashing Asp
Dimensional Warp
Transposing Lunge
Swordmage Shielding Fire

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +12, Insight +7, Endurance +11, History +14

Gear:
Cloak of the Walking Wounded +1, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Augmenting Whetstone (level 6) (4), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (4), Deathcut Leather Armor +1, Circlet of Second Chances (heroic tier), Sacrificial Khopesh +2, Instant Campsite (heroic tier)

Cleric
AC: 17
HP:39
Initiative: +5
Str:10
Con:17
Dex:10
Int:11
Wis:18
Cha:10

Lance of faith
Sacred Flame
Divine Glow
Daunting Light
Beacon of Hope
Cure Light wounds

Symbol of hope +1
Cats Paw (item hand)

[Burley]

If you crit on an 18-20, Devastating Critical might actually be worth it. I'd probably pick up a vicious weapon with a staff of ruin in your off-hand, so you get d12 crit dice and the static damage boost from the staff of ruin. Obviously, if you do this then you'll want to take Dual Implement Spellcaster. But really, that's a feat you should be taking anyways.

Edit: Focused Expertise: Dagger and Weapon Focus: Light Blade are also good choices.

I thought of something when I read this. Would the Storm Sorcerer be a good linking into Daggermaster? Imagine, if you will: Area Attacks, critting with 18-20, Devastating Critical, and that feat that only Storm Sorcerers get that automatically maxes not only the power's damage, but also all crit dice.
Vicious and Staff o' Ruin... Beautiful.

[Alteran]

I thought of something when I read this. Would the Storm Sorcerer be a good linking into Daggermaster? Imagine, if you will: Area Attacks, critting with 18-20, Devastating Critical, and that feat that only Storm Sorcerers get that automatically maxes not only the power's damage, but also all crit dice.
Vicious and Staff o' Ruin... Beautiful.

I recently ran a character based around this. I managed to do over 250 damage on a minor action. :smallbiggrin:

However, it's really not feasible until epic levels. I was level 26. The Storm Sorcerer feat (Fury of the Storm) is already an epic feat, and Ruthless Spellfury and Sorcerous Flux are epic feats that both really help the build. Also, two War Rings.

[Burley]

Wait... Two War Rings? How does that stack?

[Alteran]

It's not a typed bonus to damage, so it stacks.

[Mando Knight]

Same source. Doesn't stack.

[Alteran]

I was under the impression that untyped bonuses always stacked, and apparently so were the people who originally thought of this build. I could be wrong, of course, but I'd be surprised if nobody on the original thread on the Gleemax forums picked that up.

Yeah, the "Bonuses and Penalties" box on page 275 of the PHB doesn't say anything about bonuses from the same sources not stacking. If it says that somewhere I'll accept that I'm wrong, but I can't find the passage.

[theonesin]

Yeah, we're only starting at level 5, so I doubt we'll be reaching Epic levels.

Would there be any immediate benefit from switching Wild Source for Storm Source to get to Daggermaster?

[Alteran]

Yeah, we're only starting at level 5, so I doubt we'll be reaching Epic levels.

Would there be any immediate benefit from switching Wild Source for Storm Source to get to Daggermaster?

...I like it better? :smalltongue:

You get two static resistances, a nice shield feature, and other fun stuff. However, if it's not to your tastes, then they're both pretty much even as far as balance goes.

[theonesin]

The focus on lightning and thunder is both interesting and kind of meh to me, but I was just trying to consider all of my mechanical options.

I think I'll just stick with the Wild Spell Source, but my question still remains though: Based on how the party is set up as I currently know, could I get buy without the armor feat? And if so, what feats should I consider in its place?