General Fixes 3.5 (+ big monk fix)

[Harperfan7]

A couple days ago I posted a thread asking what might balance out the power between classes and a bunch of people responded. I took some of the advice given and am now throwing out some fixes I think will make the game balanced (more so, anyway).

General Fixes:

Anytime a caster casts a spell, they must make a caster level check vs. DC (10+ 2x spell level) or fail to cast. Natural 1 = fail, natural 20 = success. Anything that increases caster level increases this roll (Practiced caster, orange ioun stones, etc.). I suggest a feat that gives a +1 bonus to this roll, and a greater version for another +1. NOTE: This does not apply to spells cast from items, or to class abilities than mimic spells. (Nod to Satyr)

All save or suck/save or die spells allow a saving throw. Waves of Exhaustion? Allows a save. Power word kill on somebody with 100 or less hp? Allows a save.

(Still not sure about this one, it needs playtesting and is probably unnecessary) A flat bonus vs. save or die spells based on HD (d4 +0, d6 +1, d8 +2, d10 +3, d12 +4)

New Feat: (name?)
Prerequisites: Exotic weapon prof (any weapon that is normally too big for one hand, such as bastard sword, waraxe, or maul), power attack
Benefit: Anytime you use power attack in conjunction with the weapon for which you took exotic weapon prof, you gain extra damage as if you were using it with two hands even when you aren't.
NOTE: If used with two weapon fighting, this only applies to the primary hand, the off hand is treated as a normal off hand weapon even if it is the same weapon as the primary hand. SECOND NOTE: I suggest adding heavy flail to the list of weapons that can be used with one hand with the exotic weapon prof feat.

No animated shields. Er, that is, no more making sword & board completely freaking useless.

I think pathfinder is doing this, but I don't know for sure. Anyways, when sunder a weapon or shield is sundered, it is only broken, not destroyed, and can be fixed with a craft (whatever) check. Higher dcs for higher enchantments.


Spell fixes:

Celerity? Sorry, no more celerity.

Gate? Only used for traveling (or summoning unique outsiders). No more summoning solars.

Divine Metamagic? No. With persist? Double No.

Shapechange? Any non-unique creature up to half your hd. Also, this should be more powerful than any other similar spell, like polymorph.

Sudden metamagic feats? Only if you are a warmage.

Metamagic rods? Only if you are holding the rod you wish to use in your hand when using it on the spell you are casting. You cannot use two rods at the same time unless the spell has no somatic or material components.
EDIT: Apparently this is already true. So, yeah...




Class fixes:

Druids - Choose between animal companion and wild shape. Lose spontaneous summoning.

Fighter:
- Force Critical Hits (at 5th level, the fighter can affect a creature normally immune to crits with a crit if he passes two threat rolls) NOTE: I'm thinking the barbarin should get this, but I'm less sure about that. NOTE: Vorpals still don't kill anything immune to crits.
- Increase Weapon Enhancement (at 5th level, if the fighter is using an enchanted weapon, the weapon gains an additional +1 bonus to attacks and damage - this bonus is of the same type as weapon focus/specialization, but it stacks. This bonus will never make a weapon epic in regard to DR. At 10th, 15th, and 20th, this ability increases by +1, but it can never more than double the weapons enhancement [so a 15th level fighter with a +2 longsword only gets another +2 from this ability, not +3]).

Monks:
- All save or suck/save or die spells allow a saving throw. Waves of Exhaustion? Allows a save. Power word kill on somebody with 100 or less hp? Allows a save. NOTE: Even if you don't use this as a general rule, the monk should still get it. At, say, 5th level.
- At 5th level, the monk can take a free move action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day.
- At 10th level, the monk can take a free standard action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Maybe these two should switch levels? - not sure. A monk can never use both abilities in the same round, and they have different use pools.
- at 15th level, the monk can take a free full round action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Same as above.
- Wholeness of body: At 7th level, as a free action, a monk can gain fast healing 5 for a number of rounds equal to his monk class level. He can pick and choose which rounds to use it in (like Empty Body). This ability automatically kicks in if the monk is brought to 0 or fewer hit points.
- Abundant Step: 1/day/4 monk levels.
- Quivering Palm: Changes to 1/day/5 monk levels. It works instantly upon a successful attack roll, it can not be delayed.
- Ki Strike: A monk can ignore one type of Damage Reduction per 5 monk levels. NOTE: You may want to disallow the monk to ignore chaotic DR, or DR that opposes their alignment on the good/evil axis.
- Perfect Self: Gains DR 10/adamantine instead.
- Fast movement, decrease each +10ft. to +5ft. (Still faster than scouts)

Ranger:
- Animal Companion: as druid.
NOTE: Consider adding Nature Sense, Resist Natures Lure, and Venom Immunity (maybe 2 levels higher than the druid).
Also, consider adding poison use.

Sorcerer:
- At 1st level, gain eschew materials as a bonus feat.
- at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter, gain a bonus feat from the following list. Spell Focus & Greater. Spell Penetration & Greater. Extra Spell. Extra Slot. Spell Girding (+4 vs. dispel attempts against your spells).


Scouts need the ability to skirmish during a full attack, but I'm not sure how to go about it without copying the monk abilities above.


Sorry about the lack of spoilers. I don't think I forgot anything...

[Tempest Fennac]

The casting check seems a bit harsh, especially for Arcane casters who depend on their spells (I tend to see just having limited spell slots as being enough as far as limiting casting goes). If the caster failed to cast the spell, would they lose the spell slot as well? (Another huge problem with that is that it could result in huge problems for allies if a healing spell or buff fails to work because of the roll failing.)

[Glimbur]

Anytime a caster casts a spell, they must make a caster level check vs. DC (10+ 2x spell level) or fail to cast. Natural 1 = fail, natural 20 = success. Anything that increases caster level increases this roll (Practiced caster, orange ioun stones, etc.). I suggest a feat that gives a +1 bonus to this roll, and a greater version for another +1. (Nod to Satyr)

I don't like this, it's a chance that every turn you're useless.



Metamagic rods? Only if you are holding the rod you wish to use in your hand when using it on the spell you are casting. You cannot use two rods at the same time unless the spell has no somatic or material components.

I believe this is already the case.



Monks:
- At 5th level, the monk can take a free standard action once per round. He can use this ability 1+wis mod/day.
- At 10th level, the monk can take a free move action once per round. He can use this ability 1+wis mod/day. NOTE: Maybe these two should switch levels? - not sure. A monk can never use both abilities in the same round, and they have different use pools.

Switch these, you can downgrade a standard action to a move action anyway.



Scouts need the ability to skirmish during a full attack, but I'm not sure how to go about it without copying the monk abilities above.

Give them a pool of bonus move actions like the monk? I'd also like those to work per encounter, instead of per day.... possibly reduce the size of the pool.

[Harperfan7]

As I understand it, according to this board, non casters are pretty much useless. So now, they have a roughly 50% chance per spell to be useless too. Less so with the feats and an orange ioun stone. (Both feats, the stone, and being 20th level decrease it to 25% chance).

I know its harsh, but if casters are as powerful as alot of you say, this is probably necessary for balance. It also forces them to use other options, like weapons, grenades, wands and scrolls (to which this doesn't apply).

Yes, I thought about how hard it hits clerics with their healing, I considered dropping it for healing and I still might pending feedback.


Glimbur: (in order of your replies) I know. Ok. Ok, I wasn't sure about that. How would you suggest the pools be sized?

[Tempest Fennac]

My problem with a lot of pro-caster arguements is that they seem to assume that every caster will have exactly the right spell prepared when they need it while ignoring things like how scrolls cost money, time and Exp. to make, as well as how limited spell slots are when you first gain access to spells (eg: using Fly in every battle really isn't practical when you first get level 3 spells, so it will be a few levels until you can afford to use them as a defence in combat, and adding Wind Wall in will be even less practical, so a Wizard who wants Wind Wall and Fly active either needs to either use both spells before combat starts, which isn't always practical until you get access to Foresight, or you need to Quicken one of the spells to use both of them in the same combat round, which would eat up higher level spell slots which could be used for other things, while not being practical until later on in the game).

[Glimbur]

How would you suggest the pools be sized?

I'd make it directly related to class level; maybe 1+1/4 Class level. This also discourages multiclassing, which might not be your goal.

[Harperfan7]

Tempest Finnac: I completely agree. I'm not actually using these rules when I DM, just as a suggested fix to people who do think they are a problem.

Glimbur: sounds good.

I did forget some things, so I'm editing them in.

[Tempest Fennac]

That's good. :smallsmile: In a lot of other cases, it seems as though people just bend the rules to make casters even more powerful (eg: 1 person came to the conclusing that Metamagic feats with a cost of 0 could reduce the level of the spell slot used for spells with Arcane Thesis somehow).

[Kobold-Bard]

...Divine Metamagic? No. With persist? Double No....

Preventing Persist is fine, but Divine Metamagic alone isn't especially damaging I don't think.

[mikethepoor]

Here's my take on the proposed fixes:

CL checks:
Those have the potential to turn all casters useless, unless they're allowed to take 10 outside of combat. Even then, they'll still need some sort of CL boosting feat/equipment or they won't even be able to do that half the time.

All spells allow saves:
This is a good idea. Save-or-dies/save-or-sucks have always been troublesome for both sides of a game.

New feat/banned magic item: The feat adds an extra layer of complexity. 3.5 D&D is complex enough without that. Also, banning animated shields won't really help sword and board be not useless.

Spell fixes:
Celerity yes, Gate yes, Shapechange no, Divine Metamagic should probably not apply to any metamagic feat with a spell level adjustment higher than +3, Sudden Metamagic for everyone is fine.

Class fixes:
Druid: I like this fix. You can have an animal companion or be one. Not both.

Fighter: Forcing critical hits even on a creature normally immune is iffy. I'd say give it to the barbarian, who has the strength and the anger to do it.
I'd also change the attack/damage bonuses to +1/four fighter levels, as a competence bonus, and not base it off having a magic weapon.

Monk: What monks really need is the good BAB and the ability to flurry as a standard action.

Ranger: Leave the animal companion at half. Rangers are more a jack-of-all-trades class.

Sorcerer: I like this idea, but I think the bonus feat list should be similar to a wizard's.

Scout: I'd give them the ability to take a 10-foot step instead of a 5-foot step as a free action, (1/2 scout level)+DEX mod every day.

Just my 20cp (for ten thoughts).

[Eldariel]

Ranger: Leave the animal companion at half. Rangers are more a jack-of-all-trades class.

They are already by the virtue of not having spells to boost it. This is just unnecessary; half AC is literally worthless in combat. Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is already much better than the Ranger AC and you can get it with just one feat instead of having to invest all your class levels.

[sofawall]

- At 5th level, the monk can take a free move action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day.
- At 10th level, the monk can take a free standard action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Maybe these two should switch levels? - not sure. A monk can never use both abilities in the same round, and they have different use pools.
- at 15th level, the monk can take a free full round action once per round. He can use this ability 1+1/4 monk levels/day. NOTE: Same as above.

Swift Action? Immediate Action? Free action usable once per turn?

I suggest Swift action, myself.

[mikethepoor]

They are already by the virtue of not having spells to boost it. This is just unnecessary; half AC is literally worthless in combat. Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is already much better than the Ranger AC and you can get it with just one feat instead of having to invest all your class levels.

Hell, rangers themselves are useless next to druids. Agreed about the AC though, they really should get the powerup. *retracts*

[tyckspoon]

I'm not sure why you would restrict Sudden metamagics, balance wise; they're effectively already self-restricted by being only 1/day and, in the case of Sudden Quicken, having an absurd number of prereq feats (all of the other Sudden Metamagics, most of which are fairly useless.) The most dangerous metamagics don't even have Sudden equivalents; there is no such printed ability as Sudden Twin or Sudden Persist to worry about.

Divine Metamagic can be fairly used under a rule that really should be applied to all of the metamagic level adjustment replacers: Regardless of how you pay the cost, you cannot cast a spell with an adjustment higher than your highest normal spell level, so if you want to Persist a level 3 spell you have to be able to cast level 9 spells. It's already in place on a few such abilities that are still regarded as well worth taking, like Metamagic Song for Bards.

The caster level checks to cast seems to be begging for unexpected consequences. The most likely, to me, is that you'll just drive everybody to pursue caster level optimization when they otherwise wouldn't, simply so they can reliably use their spells. Alternately, it becomes a simple feat tax and every spellcaster takes Arcane Mastery. Now not only do spells work for everybody all the time just like they did before, they're also all more reliable when dispelling and breaking SR (especially when combined with a couple moderate CL boosters.) It also becomes even more imperative that casters never drop a caster level when choosing classes, lest they fall behind in their checks or get taxed another feat in Practiced Spellcaster. It's not going to do what you're hoping it will, either way.

If you want spells to have similar failure points to melee attacks, I think you've already achieved that by removing the concept of the no-save spell. If you really want spells to have the same all-or-nothing results that normal attacks do that would be better achieved by converting all save-for-half or save-partial results into Save Negates.. although that would make direct damage even more pointless, as it would no longer have the justification of 'at least it still does something when they save.'

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'm reminded of Pathfinder. You didn't fix the problems, just created new ones.

The problem with melee is that a character only has one thing they can do. A high-level Fighter might have 2 things, or even 3, things. Yes, Chargers deal a lot of damage, but can be rendered useless simply by a character with Hold the Line or Elusive Target. Trippers are great lockdown, but a Centaur laughs at them. You need melee to be able to do more things effectively to keep them from being useless half the time. Just giving casters a random failure chance only means that they now invest in Beads of Karma earlier, not that the 2 styles are balanced.

You want balance? Fighters and Barbarians are Warblades, Paladins and Rangers are Crusaders, Monks are Swordsages, Druids are Spirit Shamen, Wizards are Psions, Sorcerers are Warlocks. There. Ban the big 5, ban everything of tier 4 or lower, and the game is fun for everyone.

[Harperfan7]

The caster level checks to cast seems to be begging for unexpected consequences. The most likely, to me, is that you'll just drive everybody to pursue caster level optimization when they otherwise wouldn't, simply so they can reliably use their spells. Alternately, it becomes a simple feat tax and every spellcaster takes Arcane Mastery. Now not only do spells work for everybody all the time just like they did before, they're also all more reliable when dispelling and breaking SR (especially when combined with a couple moderate CL boosters.) It also becomes even more imperative that casters never drop a caster level when choosing classes, lest they fall behind in their checks or get taxed another feat in Practiced Spellcaster. It's not going to do what you're hoping it will, either way.

What is Arcane Mastery?

How would they be more reliable when dispelling and breaking SR?

You can't really fall behind in the caster level checks for this, because they are all relative to level. If you are a fighter 4/wizard 6, the dc to cast a 3rd level spell would be 16, so you make it half the time. If you are a wizard 10, the dc to cast a 5th level spell is 20, so you would make that half the time. The only thing you fall behind in is whatever you would normally fall behind in when multiclassing.

Sstoopidtallkid: How is this creating new problems? How does having beads of karma completely remove the caster level checks?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

As I understand it, according to this board, non casters are pretty much useless. So now, they have a roughly 50% chance per spell to be useless too.

So when it came to making everyone equally useful or making everyone equally useless, you chose... the second option?

Have fun with that. I for one can't wait to play a game in which every class is problematic.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sstoopidtallkid: How is this creating new problems? How does having beads of karma completely remove the caster level checks?Bead of Karma and similar CL boosts can allow you to reliably make the checks, and CL boosts are a good investment as-is. You've just reduced build styles for casters, not reduced their capabilities. 10th level Cleric: CL 10+4(Bead of Karma)+4(Divine Spell Power[optimized turning check]) makes the check on anything but a 1. And now he's prepped to destroy any opponent when he gets Holy Word.

As for it creating new problems, making the god-wizard more unreliable makes the party weaker. The Fighter doesn't want the Wizard to need to roll to drop Haste, he just wants the extra attack ASAP. Meanwhile, all you've given fighters is the ability to do even more damage. They don't need more damage. Unoptimized characters can reliably deal 100+ damage at 10th level. Uberchargers can sunder the world by 20th. Damage is not the problem, options are.

[Harperfan7]

By giving fighters these new abilities, in a sense, they are new options.
Now they can crit against opponents they couldn't before, which I consider an option. Now they can still be better than others with particular weapons even when they don't have the specialization style feats with that weapon. I made a new feat that lets them power attack and sword & board at the same time (but not just them, anybody can take it). These are options.

I admit, I have no idea what divine spell power is, or why holy word is so good. I don't have many books.

Someone else said they didn't like the shapechange nerf. I thought that was necessary. With shapechange you can turn into a freaking dragon and whoop up on people better than a fighter! It shouldn't be both an awesome utility spell AND an awesome buff. Now its somewhat of a buff, but really just a utility spell (though still a damn good one). It didn't need to be anywhere near as powerful as it was.

Perhaps divine metamagic is ok, I don't have the rules for it, but the DMM+persist is too powerful.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

By giving fighters these new abilities, in a sense, they are new options.
Now they can crit against opponents they couldn't before, which I consider an option. Now they can still be better than others with particular weapons even when they don't have the specialization style feats with that weapon. I made a new feat that lets them power attack and sword & board at the same time (but not just them, anybody can take it). These are options.
But they're still in the same failed paradigm: Swing sword, hit enemy, deal damage.


I admit, I have no idea what divine spell power is, or why holy word is so good. I don't have many books.
Holy Word is a core spell, in the SRD.

[Origomar]

Im not very fluent on the books either but i beleive holy word is imbalanced because its a save or get an incredibly insane effect or death. I remember reading one, if your HD was below(i think 50, might be 100) you are blind, forever, or deaf forever. so essentially they can turn you into a vegetable.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Let's see what the SRD has to say.


Holy Word
Evocation [Good, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Good 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nongood creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects.

HD Effect
Equal to caster level Deafened
Up to caster level -1 Blinded, deafened
Up to caster level -5 Paralyzed, blinded, deafened
Up to caster level -10 Killed, paralyzed, blinded, deafened
The effects are cumulative and concurrent. No saving throw is allowed against these effects.

Deafened
The creature is deafened for 1d4 rounds.

Blinded
The creature is blinded for 2d4 rounds.

Paralyzed
The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.

Killed
Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nongood extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the holy word. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by holy word.

[Roderick_BR]

My problem with a lot of pro-caster arguements is that they seem to assume that every caster will have exactly the right spell prepared when they need it while ignoring things like how scrolls cost money, time and Exp. to make, as well as how limited spell slots are when you first gain access to spells (eg: using Fly in every battle really isn't practical when you first get level 3 spells, so it will be a few levels until you can afford to use them as a defence in combat, and adding Wind Wall in will be even less practical, so a Wizard who wants Wind Wall and Fly active either needs to either use both spells before combat starts, which isn't always practical until you get access to Foresight, or you need to Quicken one of the spells to use both of them in the same combat round, which would eat up higher level spell slots which could be used for other things, while not being practical until later on in the game).
If you check the wizard optmization threads, it's not hard to have prepared most of the spells you really need, since only a handful of spells each level are really must-be's. And XP and gold costs are almost disconsidered since they are not needed, only a nice boost to you, unlike meleers, that become almost useless if they lose their magic itens.
An "inteligently played wizard" can't be taken down, unless the DM makes the game to really mess with them.

That said, I think that the spellcraft/concentration check is fine. It makes the highest spells be hard to cast, and makes more sense for magic to be hard to use. I'm actually using a similar rule. The only difference is that I don't require checks when casting out of combat. And that is without mentioning itens that increase skill checks.

Also, no need for fixes or new feats to increase weapon damage. You can already deal a decent damage with the core rules. As people point out, what meleers lack are options, not damage capacity.

[Thrawn183]

What about making the caster level check 5+3xspell level? This will make it easier to cast lower level spells and harder to cast higher level spells. This is important because there are less ways to boost your caster level check at low level and low level characters really can't afford to lose any spells.

I mean, tell the level 1 wizard that they have a 50/50 chance at level one to automatically be useless for the encounter (assuming they use one spell per encounter). Ouch. On the other hand, this makes those pesky ninth level spells take a caster level check of 32.

I also like this because without caster level boosting items, the moment you become an awesome caster (ninth level spells, ie. 17th level) is the same time you never fail to cast first level spells. It just feels appropriate somehow.

[AslanCross]

So when it came to making everyone equally useful or making everyone equally useless, you chose... the second option?

Have fun with that. I for one can't wait to play a game in which every class is problematic.

Agreed, this opens a whole new can of worms.

Mind you, OP, I think the consensus is more of the big 5 being overwhelmingly powerful, especially past level 12, instead of the others being completely useless. I've been DMing for almost 3 years now, and I've seen a cleric get useless too (due to her play style) and a paladin, ranger and rogue ruin stuff like there's no tomorrow. Of course, they each had martial adept levels.

EDIT: The Monk, however, is indeed pretty pathetic.

[Swooper]

As I understand it, according to this board, non casters are pretty much useless. So now, they have a roughly 50% chance per spell to be useless too. Less so with the feats and an orange ioun stone. (Both feats, the stone, and being 20th level decrease it to 25% chance).
I didn't read anything past this, so this may have been pointed out already, but you're doing it the wrong way. Nobody likes nerfs. Instead of powering down casters this much (toning down/removal of select spells may be a good idea though), you should be powering up the less useful classes.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If I were to have randomized spell failure, I'd base it off caster level. "Holding back" on caster level weakens your spell, but increases success chance.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My 'quick fix' for 3.5:

Kill all base classes. Period.

Replace Fighter, Paladin, and Monk with ToB equivelants (Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage respectively)

Replace divine caster classes with my invocation-variant

Replace Bard with my invocation-variant

Replace Wiz/Sorc with Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro/couple other homebrew along the same design

Eliminate 90% of the PrC's which do nothing but ramp up power level and eliminate the 'easily abusable' spells. PrC's eliminated include Incantatrix, Iot7V... just about anything both full spellcaster progression AND good stuff.

[Swooper]

Kill all base classes. Period.
Wait, what? And leave only prestige classes? How does that even work? I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what you said and I have no idea what you meant with it... :smallconfused:

[Foryn Gilnith]

LOL. That does technically mean have only prestige classes. :P

But from the example he gave, I think it meant "kill all core base classes". Like CoDzilla and Batman.

Now that I actually read the rules, I have criticism...

Tempest Finnac: I completely agree. I'm not actually using these rules when I DM, just as a suggested fix to people who do think they are a problem.

That must be why they're extraneous, a pain to remember, and non-integrated with sourcebooks. You don't plan to use them, so you don't suffer from cutting corners. I don't mean this as an insult - putting little effort where little effort is deserved is good management.


What is Arcane Mastery?

A feat in Complete Arcane. It lets you always take 10 on caster level checks. Now, unless you're odd-leveled and casting your best spells, you have a 100% success rate. And since they're always taking 10 and/or boosting caster level, SR is punched through a lot more.

All in all, the house rules seem a bit unfocused, and the problem they solve and the way in which they solve it is unclear.

[Harperfan7]

So anyways, how does the monk fix hold up?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wait, what? And leave only prestige classes? How does that even work? I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what you said and I have no idea what you meant with it... :smallconfused:

Sorry, I did mean kill all Core base classes, not all base classes. They're so far out of balance, it's best to simply wipe the slate and start over.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So anyways, how does the monk fix hold up?

I laugh at thee.

[elliott20]

I have always felt that the monk class itself doesn't need to be fixed, it needs to be scrapped.

The very design concept behind the monk class is EXTREMELY flawed from day one, and the monk you see now is merely the result of that flawed conception.

The monk initially started out as every kungfu guy you've ever seen. That's why the monk has a metric ton of random abilities that don't all mesh together. But I'm also willing to bet that the first pass at the monk probably made him too powerful, because he was such an amalgamation. They probably had to tune him back just to make sure he falls in line. Except, in doing so, they over shot it and now monks suck.

If, however, you were to say, really examine the source material that inspired the monk, you'd realize the diversity provide there in would require it's own book of extra materials. (oh hi, didn't see you there, ToB!)

So, to me, the core of monks should also be just like fighters - options.

[Lycanthromancer]

So, to me, the core of monks should also be just like fighters - options.

They pretty much do have the same option:

"Hit things."

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They pretty much do have the same option:

"Hit things."Now, now. Some Fighters give up their abiliy to hit things in exchange for the ability to trip them. And those who take enough levels of Fighter can sometimes do both, though they pay in their blood for the ability, as they are now 12th level Fighters, and a threat to none that they are expected to fight.

[Origomar]

Im pretty sure the whole idea behind the monk was to create a unarmed melee fighter(not the class) instead of one that ALWAYS had to have a weapon in order to do anything useful.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Im pretty sure the whole idea behind the monk was to create a unarmed melee fighter(not the class) instead of one that ALWAYS had to have a weapon in order to do anything useful.But the Monk is terrrible at that. It can't use magical weapon enhancements, it doesn't get Sneak Attack, it can't PA. It's damage will stink, it can't bypass DR(meaning it's damage will be nothing), and it can't get reach or any other special abilities. The Unarmed Swordsage does it so much better, as does a Rogue or Scout with IUS. In fact, if I was building a char to fight in melee without a weapon, my list would go:
Druid
PsyWar(with the Weapon Summoning power)
Unarmed Swordsage
Warblade with IUS
Crusader with IUS
Talashtora(Psywar with 2 Monk levels)
Warlock
Duskblade with IUS
Rogue with IUS(maybe with 1 Monk level)
Scout with IUS(maybe with 1 Monk level)
Barbarian with IUS(maybe with 1 Monk level)
Monk

Now, there might be Monk levels used in a couple of those builds, since Feats are more important than class levels, but none of them can be considered a Monk build, none of them need the level to be effective, and all are far more effective than straight Monk.

[Tempest Fennac]

Roderick, what levels are we talking about for Wizards being unstoppable? Considering their awful HPs and inability to spend a lot of spells on defence early on, I fail to see how they are always unstoppable.

[elliott20]

I remember a long time ago, somebody actually did a build using a fighter to do an unarmed build, and compared it side by side to the monk. The fighter was STILL better at it than a monk after that. it basically came down to a fighter being able to more reliably deal damage due to a higher BAB and flat damage bonus.

and yes, I am painfully aware that a fighter's option is basically "hit things". my point was that fighters were meant to be versatile and customizable through their feats.

[Doc Roc]

Roderick, what levels are we talking about for Wizards being unstoppable? Considering their awful HPs and inability to spend a lot of spells on defence early on, I fail to see how they are always unstoppable.

Fifth and up, if they have their party with them. A little later if not.
I suggest you spend some time reading logic ninja's guide and treantmonk's guide. Both are superbly well-written and basically the defining lines of thought in the field. I have a couple of guides myself, and there's Solo's guide as well. All of these should demonstrate things more clearly than my quick explanation would. If you'd like, I'll add links.

[Tempest Fennac]

I've already read TLN's guide. I still think level 5 is way too early for Wizards to become unstoppable (my stance is that, for instance, while casting Fly makes them immune to melee fighters without flight, it also means they get 1 less Haste, Stinking Cloud or another spell which would benefit the whole party). I class Metamagic as a non-issue barring Sudden Metamagics due to how expensive applying them early on can be.

[Doc Roc]

You should read treantmonk's. It deals more with specifics, and has a broader range of explored options. It's also quite fun to read. I really recommend it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548).

[Tempest Fennac]

I had a quick look through it. To be honest, I didn't find it that enjoyable to read at all (admittedly, I enjoy playing as healers, as my sig suggests, so I was slightly bias from that perspective) and it was just telling me stuff I already knew. To me it still isn't that convincing due to how I expect sane opponants to be able to figure out how to get round those battlefield control spells at least some of the time, and if they do, the Wizard would be in trouble with the other party members are in combat with other enemies.

EDIT: I just noticed that Cloudy Conjuration doesn't seem to have a saving throw: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Cloudy_Conjuration,all . That actually changes a lot by reducing the chances that opponants have for countering those battlefield control spells.