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View Full Version : Getting the Most of Cantrips



Ganurath
2009-06-21, 02:26 PM
My question is for the Beguiler's arsenal in particular, but the thread subject is abusing 0-level spells in general. Examples of funny stories, rules questions, anything that can make a 0-level spell seem like 2+ material. Oh, and an Orison is fine too.

My question: Message doesn't grant a saving throw or allow for spell resistance. My target knows I'm somewhere nearby, but doesn't know where. If I hit them with Message, can I Message the verbal components of the spell being cast to them so they can't pin me down with a Listen check?

RTGoodman
2009-06-21, 02:41 PM
If I hit them with Message, can I Message the verbal components of the spell being cast to them so they can't pin me down with a Listen check?

I don't think so. Message itself is a standard action, and so is casting most other spells. There's no way to combine the two. Besides that, the description of message says, "The spell transmits sound, not meaning," so that pretty much rules out casting spells through it.

Bayar
2009-06-21, 02:43 PM
Fel drain sonic snap ?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-21, 02:45 PM
For abuse: Launch Bolt, SpC. Collasal Crossbow Bolts deal how much, again?

Ganurath
2009-06-21, 02:46 PM
I don't think so. Message itself is a standard action, and so is casting most other spells. There's no way to combine the two. Besides that, the description of message says, "The spell transmits sound, not meaning," so that pretty much rules out casting spells through it.I'm not saying that this is happening in the same round, my Beguiler can easily Move Silently elsewhere after casting Message. What's I'm saying is, make the target hear the verbal components coming from right by them rather than where I actually am, so they can't pin me with sound.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-21, 02:48 PM
Fel drain sonic snap ?

Hey, hey. That's my job.

Adumbration
2009-06-21, 02:51 PM
Hey, hey. That's my job.

That's Talic's job, actually, if memory serves.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-21, 02:53 PM
That's Talic's job, actually, if memory serves.

No, no, pretty sure I came up with it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6336715&postcount=31)

Adumbration
2009-06-21, 02:54 PM
No, no, pretty sure I came up with it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6336715&postcount=31)

Give me a moment to dig up his character from the Arena game on these forums. It was some while ago, but I do distinctly remember it.

UserClone
2009-06-21, 02:56 PM
Versatile Spellcaster. Pop off two cantrip slots at once to cast a spell that's worth a damn, like whelm.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-21, 02:59 PM
Give me a moment to dig up his character from the Arena game on these forums. It was some while ago, but I do distinctly remember it.

... this is what I get for getting into 3.5 at the end of its lifespan, isn't it?

Bayar
2009-06-21, 03:00 PM
Give me a moment to dig up his character from the Arena game on these forums. It was some while ago, but I do distinctly remember it.

Correct, Talic had his fel drain Magic missile/sonic snap for more than 4-5-6 months ago, and he knew about it from even before, when a guy in the arena played an archivist with fel drain sonic snap. Which probably knew from the 339 board...

Adumbration
2009-06-21, 03:02 PM
... this is what I get for getting into 3.5 at the end of its lifespan, isn't it?

Jeah. I personally believe that the Arena Tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98931) has gone through pretty much every conceivable and inconceivable build combination possible at 1st level. Just take a look at the Gladiators by Player name, and you'll have some idea of the magnitude.

nefele
2009-06-21, 03:06 PM
I'm not saying that this is happening in the same round, my Beguiler can easily Move Silently elsewhere after casting Message. What's I'm saying is, make the target hear the verbal components coming from right by them rather than where I actually am, so they can't pin me with sound.
First of all, Message makes the words you whisper audible to the target. It doesn't make them magically inaudible to those nearby - they roll listen checks as normal, and if they roll high enough to catch a whisper, they do. So even if the target hears the words next to his ear, he can (potentially) also hear them from your position. Whether this is enough to confuse him and make it difficult for him to pinpoint you, is up to the DM.

But the important part is that the words must be whispered, and you can't whisper a spell.


A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

Emy
2009-06-21, 03:36 PM
You can use Sleight of Hand to mumble the words to a spell and try to hide the somatic components.

Darrin
2009-06-21, 09:52 PM
For abuse: Launch Bolt, SpC. Collasal Crossbow Bolts deal how much, again?

When the spell description says "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow", not as much as you might think.

Prestidigitation is usually worth more than all the other cantrips combined. Mage hand can also be a life-saver.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-21, 09:56 PM
When the spell description says "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow", not as much as you might think.

There are Colossal sized light crossbows.

Glimbur
2009-06-21, 09:58 PM
When the spell description says "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow", not as much as you might think.

Does it specify what size of Light Crossbow?

Acid Splash can be useful... if you have a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard around and we didn't get the rules wrong so you do 1d3+nd6.

Coidzor
2009-06-21, 10:01 PM
There are Colossal sized light crossbows.

Is it really left that vague as far as what size category of weapon it's supposed to be fired from?

Or you just have to pony up the money/carrying capacity for the increased size ammo that has to be in possession for the spell to work?

Why don't ray of frost or acid splash work with Fell Drain such that sonic snap is the superior spell?

...And where is Sonic Snap from? Or Fell Drain for that matter? <_< >_>

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-21, 10:03 PM
Ray of Frost and Acid Splash require touch attacks. Sonic Snap doesn't. Fell Drain is from Libris Mortis, Sonic Snap can be found in Spell Compendium (and I don't know where else, I think a Faerun book has it)

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-21, 10:05 PM
Also Acid splash (or wand of) is the rogue's first ranged touch attack for sneak attack damage.

Tukka
2009-06-21, 10:23 PM
Is it really left that vague as far as what size category of weapon it's supposed to be fired from?

Or you just have to pony up the money/carrying capacity for the increased size ammo that has to be in possession for the spell to work?
It doesn't specify the size category of the crossbow, no. Nor does it mention any limitation on the size of the bolt.

However, the way I am reading the spell description, you'd still take the usual penalty to your attack roll for using an inappropriately-sized weapon (-2 per size category, cumulative, so -8 for a medium creature firing a colossal bolt), since you're firing it "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow". If you're getting colossal damage from the bolt (6d6, incidentally) then the flip-side of that interpretation (in my view) is that you take the commensurate penalty to your attack roll.

You could make them masterwork bolts to compensate a little for the penalty.

Lycanthromancer
2009-06-21, 10:27 PM
Use prestidigitation to cover over the taste of poison. Or to color an object as a message to someone following you.

Mage hand to pickpocket keys and so on from guards.

Dancing lights as a communications beacon.

Light on a pebble to throw into dark rooms and corridors (and to drop down wells, pits, and so on).

Open/close to set off specially-prepared traps.

Summon instrument for something that can be used for something other than playing music. A gong, for instance, could be a makeshift sled, or shield. A number of instruments are easily usable as clubs. Heck, you could play music on a hand-saw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nu6ZuJBU7Y), or even a bunch of bottles/wine glasses full of water.

Detect magic...Oh dear, detect magic. Foils invisibility, finds magical traps, and also lets you know which items can be safely overlooked.

Mending can repair a broken limb, assuming the successful use of, say, flesh to stone or polymorph any object. Who needs regeneration, anyway?

Purify food and drink can foil assassination plots, fairly easily, depending on what could potentially be considered 'food' (which is just about anything, really, since everything eats something).

Acid splash ignores hardness, and so can be used to burrow through solid stone, or even for dissolving adamantine.

Ghost sound can easily be used to distract enemies that are too alert for your own personal comfort while you're hiding. Used imaginatively, you can do other things, too, such as scaring away foes by making them excessively paranoid. Of course, prestidigitation can do this as well...

Touch of fatigue: combine with ray of exhaustion for a cumulative effect.

arguskos
2009-06-22, 12:01 AM
Ray of Frost and Acid Splash require touch attacks. Sonic Snap doesn't. Fell Drain is from Libris Mortis, Sonic Snap can be found in Spell Compendium (and I don't know where else, I think a Faerun book has it)
Sonic Snap used to be called Horizikaul's Cough. It's in Magic in Faerun.

Mando Knight
2009-06-22, 12:06 AM
Acid splash ignores hardness, and so can be used to burrow through solid stone, or even for dissolving adamantine.

And can be a handy way of finishing off a Troll if you don't feel like burning off a higher-level slot and no one else has any source of Fire or Acid damage.

kjones
2009-06-22, 01:09 AM
Detect magic...Oh dear, detect magic. Foils invisibility, finds magical traps, and also lets you know which items can be safely overlooked.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that it "foils invisibility", since the target would have to stand still for three rounds in order to be pinpointed. It can tell you that there's someone invisible around, though, which is useful in its own right.