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Killer Angel
2009-06-22, 02:41 AM
Need some help.
I’m planning to DMastering a Dungeon Crawl. The pre-made pc can eventually beat all the enemies, but even in the better scenario, there will be some dead.
The pc are 5 brothers, all sorcerers, 12° lev., each one more skilled in his own “style”, but all together, they are a team with a lot of variety. With their spell lists and scrolls, they cover a good portion of the PH’s spells from 1° to 6°.
WBL standard and, agreeing to my players’ requests, it’s strictly Core (not even PH2 is allowed).

I need some ideas for one of the encounters they’ll face, with a CR around 13 (max 14).
I’ve yet planned the first fight (demons involved) and the BBEG (wizard 13° with some support), so I need at least another encounter.
The objective of said fight, is not to TPK them, but there must be a solid chance to kill at least one of them.
I was thinking about two or three NPC, preferably non-caster (or at least non full casters, and no wiz./sorc.).
They should be some sort of caster-killers, with abilities focused on such goal, but I’m not going to tell you anything too much specific on the PC sorcerers, so you’ll not use any metagame knowledge (I want the encounter hard and possibly deadly, but it mustn’t be too much fitted on them).

Any ideas for these mysterious caster-killers?
(eventually: any question?)

Quietus
2009-06-22, 02:46 AM
I know the boards have a dislike of them, but Monks could actually be excellent fodder. Their abilities can vary slightly from individual to individual, it sounds like a primarily indoor, dungeon-crawl type thing where flight isn't to be contended with, and not every Sorcerer will have Freedom of Movement 24/7 and a Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification. Their defenses can make it annoying to take them out, just don't pimp their damage too much. Instead, use them as flanking partners for Rogues, so you've got high-damage glass cannons providing sneak attack, with a few supporting Monks giving flanking and Stunning Fist - stunned enemies are flat-footed, after all.

Doc Roc
2009-06-22, 02:47 AM
Normally, this is something I'd be delighted to help with. But what power level do you seek?


Answer wisely.

Killer Angel
2009-06-22, 03:25 AM
I know the boards have a dislike of them, but Monks could actually be excellent fodder. Their abilities can vary slightly from individual to individual, it sounds like a primarily indoor, dungeon-crawl type thing where flight isn't to be contended with, and not every Sorcerer will have Freedom of Movement 24/7 and a Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification

Well, the last Goblin strip, brings some justice to the poor monk... :smallwink:
Anyway, it's true that not all of them will have mithral buckler, etc, but it's reasonable that our caster-killer, will have to face standard protective spells(invisibility, mirror image, displacement).
So, any credible build should be ready for such things.



Normally, this is something I'd be delighted to help with. But what power level do you seek?
Answer wisely.

4-5 sorcerers have a very high potential. Individually, they lack speed (no quicken spells), but it's reasonable that they can unleash nasty combo in the same round, given a minimal cooperation between them.
The pre-made pc have such potential, but I fear that my players are not going to use it at 100% power.
So, the CR shold be 13, max 14, using only Core but optimizing.
Have no fear, if you suggest something too much strong, I can always tone it down. :smallsmile:

EDIT: the sorcerers are brothers, so my players will know exactly the spell list, the equipment and the typical tactic of each pc.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-22, 03:42 AM
Three Fiendish Chuuls, each advanced to 16 HD. They'd each be CR 10, three of them makes an EL 13 encounter. They'll have SR 21, resistance to cold and fire 10, and its usual Improved Grab, Constrict, and Paralytic Tentacles. I'd make its extra feats Ability Focus: Paralytic Tentacles and probably Improved Natural Attack. They should be in a partially flooded room with areas that drop off into deeper water, the Chuuls should attack until they grab, then try to get underwater with their prey while constricting. If two jump out at one character, the first to grab should move them to its tentacles while the other constricts as though they're fighting over who gets to eat him.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-22, 03:47 AM
You could always try a succubus fighter 6, blackguard 3. According to MMI and SRD rules, that's CR 13 and she's core.

a) She has stupidly high saves. Like, 20+ high. Get her a ring of evasion.
b) She has a decent natural armor already. Get her a monk's belt for touch AC.
c) If spell resistance increases with levels (it usually does) she now has a SR of 27.
d) She has decent HP, energy resistances and damage reduction.
e) She can teleport, charm, suggest and ethereal jaunt at will.

Killer Angel
2009-06-22, 06:05 AM
Three Fiendish Chuuls, each advanced to 16 HD. They'd each be CR 10, three of them makes an EL 13 encounter. .

I was thinking more to some enemies more "npc like", with class levels and unusual tactics, but this idea is intriguing...
Advanced fiendish carrion crawler had more paralizing attacks (the chuul must hit with the pincers), but they lack the blind-fight feat (unless I'll give to them thanks to the advancement in HD)

Killer Angel
2009-06-22, 06:10 AM
You could always try a succubus fighter 6, blackguard 3. According to MMI and SRD rules, that's CR 13 and she's core.

a) She has stupidly high saves. Like, 20+ high. Get her a ring of evasion.
b) She has a decent natural armor already. Get her a monk's belt for touch AC.
c) If spell resistance increases with levels (it usually does) she now has a SR of 27.
d) She has decent HP, energy resistances and damage reduction.
e) She can teleport, charm, suggest and ethereal jaunt at will.

Ah, the always loveable succubus!
Sadly, I used a succubus in our last adventure, and i wouldn't want to repeat myself. Then, even if this version could mean a nasty surprise, it's a "solo" monster: if charme / suggestion doesn't work, probably i'll be dead very quickly (even if SR 27 is good)

Michaelos
2009-06-22, 06:36 AM
Iron golems are CR 13. Their poison gas doesn't have to see you to hit you, and magic immunity helps for defense. (Although with 5 sorcerers, at least one will have some counters.) If you want to boost the encounter to CR 14, add a stone golem also.

Myrmex
2009-06-22, 12:04 PM
Ah, the always loveable succubus!
Sadly, I used a succubus in our last adventure, and i wouldn't want to repeat myself. Then, even if this version could mean a nasty surprise, it's a "solo" monster: if charme / suggestion doesn't work, probably i'll be dead very quickly (even if SR 27 is good)

With alter self at will, you could have the succubus appear as a fierce warrior on a fiery steed (nightmare).

Doc Roc
2009-06-22, 01:39 PM
I think, probably, you want some more mellow help than what I was gonna offer. I'll check in later though. :)

ericgrau
2009-06-22, 02:00 PM
Easy. Thrown weapons or scorching ray or etc., readied action disrupt spellcasting. Works well with lots of expendable low-level guys backing up other monsters. You can also dispel buffs or use one of the many grappling monsters. Higher level monsters tend to have SR and 1001 immunities, plus feats to get even more immunities; be sure you understand them all.

In terms of NPCs with class levels, monk is the best non-caster you can use purely for its SR, saves and touch AC. And then you add other mentioned tactics on top of that (not just punching stuff mindlessly). Combine with an enclosed space and high jump mod (with speed bonuses). But that's awfully specific unless the monsters are expecting casters and yet for some reason didn't also get high level casters of their own. Maybe low to mid level monk(s) in combination with other creatures would be more reasonable.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-22, 07:36 PM
I was thinking more to some enemies more "npc like", with class levels and unusual tactics, but this idea is intriguing...
Advanced fiendish carrion crawler had more paralizing attacks (the chuul must hit with the pincers), but they lack the blind-fight feat (unless I'll give to them thanks to the advancement in HD)

Chuuls are a better choice than Carrion Crawlers for quite a few reasons. First of all, Chuuls have quite a few more HD than their CR, which is almost necessary for the SR of 5+HD to even be a factor. Second, their primary attack is Improved Grab, and they'd almost be guaranteed to successfully grapple one of these characters. Spellcasters don't do well in a grapple as it is, and with core only SR can be quite an obstacle. Finally, they tend to want to grab one opponent and carry them away, as opposed to a carrion crawler which tries to paralyze the whole encounter before doing anything else. The fact that they're aquatic will further complicate things since a PC can easily end up grappled, paralyzed, underwater, and all alone against a physically superior foe.


If you're after opponents with class levels, I'd use a pair of Grimlock Clerics. They start at CR 1, the first two levels would probably be nonassociated, so I'd make them both Cleric 12 at CR 12 each, for an EL 14 encounter. They work in a kitchen, cutting up and cooking whatever creatures the demons bring them. The room itself should be quite large, big enough for a large-size demon to comfortably drag in a large-size victim. There's a big iron stove that they cook the food in near the entrance, with a heavy blood-soaked table nearby that they cut the meat on. It should all smell of blood and cooking meat, and the room would be considerably dark. Each Grimlock casts Deeper Darkness every day somewhere on the wall, so there should be 24 such spells in effect at any given time. An area dispel probably wouldn't even hit half of them, or it would take an equal number of Daylight spells to counteract them all, though a single 4th level or higher spell with the light descriptor would overpower the effect. There should be at least two adjoining rooms, one with a heavy canvas curtain over the doorway, inside is a shrine and the filthy piles of tanned hides they sleep on. The other room is barred with about 6-10 Ghasts trapped inside who they throw the scraps to, ghasts are fairly smart and they know not to attack the grimlocks. The pair would be wielding oversized meat cleavers (battleaxes) two handed, here's a quick set of stats for them:

Grimlock Cleric 12 (Death, Trickery)
HD 14d8+28 HP 114
Initiative +6
Speed 30 ft.
AC 22 (+6 Studded Leather +3, +4 Natural, +2 Dex) Touch 12, Flat-Footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple +11/+15
Attack +3 Battleaxe +18 melee, 1d8+9, 20/x3
Full Attack +3 Battleaxe +18/+13/+8 melee, 1d8+9, 20/x3
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks Spells, Rebuke Undead, Death Touch
Special Qualities Blindsight 40 ft., Immunities, Scent
Saves: Fort +10 Reflex +9 Will +14
Abilities: Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 7
Skills Spot +5, Listen +5, Concentration +5, Hide +22
Feats Track, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell
Challenge Rating 12
Alignment Chaotic Evil
Treasure Masterwork Studded Leather, Silver Unholy Symbol, Masterwork Battleaxe

Cleric Spells Prepared (caster level 12, DC 13 + spell level) 6/7/7/6/4/4/3
0- Purify Food and Drink, Create Water x2, Mending, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1st- Disguise Self, Cure Light Wounds x2, Doom, Protection from Good, Endure Elements, Sanctuary
2nd- Invisibility, Bull's Strength, Silence, Sound Burst, Lesser Restoration, Cure Moderate Wounds, Hold Person
3rd- Silent Invisibility, Silent Silence, Magic Vestment*, Deeper Darkness*, Blindness/Deafness, Dispel Magic
4th- Confusion, Greater Magic Weapon*, Cure Critical Wounds x3
5th- Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Quickened Shield of Faith, Quickened Divine Favor
6th- Mislead, Animate Objects, Heal
* Each day they cast Magic Vestment +3 on their armor, Greater Magic Weapon +3 on their weapon, and Deeper Darkness on the room.

Tactics: They'll most likely smell/hear the PCs approach, thus gaining a surprise round.
Surprise round: Cast Quickened Shield of Faith, cast Spell Resistance, hide.
Round 1: Quickened Bull's Strength. One uses Animate Objects on the iron stove (large), the wooden table (large), and the curtain (large) and orders them to attack, the stove will hilariously trample, the table will charge and attack, and the curtain will grapple and constrict. The other should cast Sound Burst and then move in to melee range. Tell them they just got trampled by a stove.
Round 2: Quickened Divine Favor and full attack if within reach, or cast an offensive spell.
Round 3-4: If anyone looks injured, use Death Touch, otherwise cast Slay Living on whoever has been the biggest threat, or ready a counterspell with Dispel Magic or Silence.

If injured, cast invisibility or just retreat and hide to cast healing spells. If one takes a lot of sudden damage the other should heal him, if one is invisible he should try to heal the other before becoming visible. Otherwise continue full attacking, if the animated objects are dispelled the other should reanimate them, if they're destroyed they should open the door for the ghasts to escape. If they think they're going to lose, one will go and ring an oversized dinner bell that echoes throughout the entire building until reinforcements arrive.

wykydtron
2009-06-22, 11:02 PM
@Biffoniacus_Furiou: Wow, I'm impressed with the amount of work that went into that. Bravo.

Killer Angel
2009-06-23, 05:47 AM
If you're after opponents with class levels, I'd use a pair of Grimlock Clerics. .

Wow...
They're good, and the fight in the kitchen is funny and memorable.
If i didn't use them for this Crawl, I'm going certainly to use them in another appropriate adventure... it seems to me almost a waste to use them in a "simple" Crawl... :smallsmile:

Thanks!


I think, probably, you want some more mellow help than what I was gonna offer. I'll check in later though. :)

Who knows... what do you have in mind? :smallwink:
(even without touching the details of Biffoniacus)

Talic
2009-06-23, 05:59 AM
Hm. CR 13-14?

Ok.

Let's make a 2 man team. David and Goliath.

Gnome Cleric 11 (Magic and Trickery, or Magic and Shadow)

AND

Ogre Barbarian 7.

Both get Elite array. Put the Ogre's 15 in Str, and give him his 1 level boost in Str, for a 26 str, pre rage. Add in Rage.

Cleric should put the 15 in Wisdom, and use Spell Resistance (SR 23 for him and the Ogre), followed by Bull's strength on the ogre, and then an Antimagic Field (Magic 6). If the gnome has a readied action to follow after the ogre has damaged a foe, there's a charge for good damage, followed immediately by being in an Antimagic Bubble.

Best of all, if the AMF goes down, there's still the SR to contend with.

Killer Angel
2009-06-23, 10:19 AM
Iron golems are CR 13. Their poison gas doesn't have to see you to hit you, and magic immunity helps for defense.

Golem(s) alone are too easy to bypass for a group of casters.
If I'll use a stone golem, it will be in combo with someone else.



Hm. CR 13-14?

Ok.

Let's make a 2 man team. David and Goliath.



ooohhh... cute little gnome...:smallcool:
Probably, i'll use this or the fiendish chuuls.

Thanks!