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PId6
2009-06-22, 04:04 AM
I've just been reading the SRD on dual wielding and under that entry here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting), all it says is the following:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.
This just says you get an extra attack per round. I'm fairly certain it only applies to full attacks, yet this quote doesn't specify, meaning it could possibly apply to standard attacks too. I've looked all over the SRD but couldn't find anything else on it. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat says the same thing, and that's about all I found on the subject. Can someone point me to where it says the extra attack only applies to full attacks?

Also, I'm not really sure on this, but when making a full attack when wielding two weapons, do you get your BAB bonus attacks with your main weapons? I always thought you didn't, yet the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats only seems to add attacks with your off-hand weapon, suggesting that your main weapon already get bonus attacks. So how does it actually work?

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 04:13 AM
PHB p. 143:



If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon (See Two-Weapon Fighting under Special Attacks, p. 160), or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item), you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

Yes, you got it right. Wielding an offhand weapon only gives you one more attack. ITWF and GTWF are required to make your extra offhand attacks.

PHB p. 160



If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

There are a couple of ways to attack with two weapons without having to make a full attack, but the easiest is the Tiger Claw strike Wolf Fang Strike from Tome of Battle.

PId6
2009-06-22, 04:36 AM
So when you make a full attack with all of those feats, you only make one attack with your main weapon and three attacks with your offhand one?

kamikasei
2009-06-22, 04:38 AM
So when you make a full attack with all of those feats, you only make one attack with your main weapon and three attacks with your offhand one?

No, you get your full iterative attack with your main weapon. The feats essentially give you extra attacks with the off-hand weapon at the same times that your BAB is giving you extra attacks with your main.

What makes you think you don't get the normal iterative attacks?

PId6
2009-06-22, 04:41 AM
No, you get your full iterative attack with your main weapon. The feats essentially give you extra attacks with the off-hand weapon at the same times that your BAB is giving you extra attacks with your main.

What makes you think you don't get the normal iterative attacks?
I was told TWF sucks, so I just assumed. :smalltongue:

Actually, it was just something I read somewhere that I don't really remember. Ah well, my mistake.

Leeham
2009-06-22, 04:48 AM
Are you kidding? I remember the good old days of my first campains. We had a character who started late, so we let him be a Half-Dragon. Then we let him have claws on his elbows, like a silver dragon does. 5 attacks in a round. It was shocking how often he hit.

kamikasei
2009-06-22, 04:48 AM
The problems with TWF are basically a) it's crazily feat-intensive and b) hard to get damage out of, due to the inherent advantage of two-handed power-attacking. A common semi-fix is to scrap the multiple feats and just have one two-weapon fighting feat that automatically grants you additional attacks with your off-hand weapon based on your BAB. Optionally, you could also let it let you attack with both weapons as a standard action.

Per RAW, though, if you're willing to spend the feats it's not hard to get plenty of attacks with TWF. The real problem is whether they're going to add up to much damage (especially against enemies with DR). That's why it's usually recommended for classes with sources of bonus dice, e.g. rogues, where maximizing the number of attacks to get those dice is the better strategy.


Are you kidding? I remember the good old days of my first campains. We had a character who started late, so we let him be a Half-Dragon. Then we let him have claws on his elbows, like a silver dragon does. 5 attacks in a round. It was shocking how often he hit.

Fighting with multiple natural weapons is not TWF - you don't have to invest the feats. I'm also curious as to how much damage he was dishing out. And of course, I wonder a) if the additional natural weapons were reflected via increased ECL and b) if you were running the LA/RHD rules per RAW.

Kobold-Bard
2009-06-22, 04:52 AM
When Two Weapon Fighting, you get your normal full attack, which depends on your Base Attack Bonus, but they all take the appropriate Primary Hand Penalty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting).

You then get one additional attack per feat you have (TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF). Each of these uses you highest single Base Attack Bonus, minus the appropriate Off Hand Penalty form the above table, as well as any additional penalties mentioned in the feat description.

eg. A level 12 Wizard (BAB +6/+1) with the Two Weapon Fighting feat makes a Full Attack with a Quarterstaff (which is considered a Light off hand weapon for TWF).
His attacks look like this:
Primary: +4/-1
Off Hand: +4

A 20th level Ranger (BAB +20/+15/+10/+5) with Two Weapon Fighting as well as Improved and Greater Versions Full Attack with two Scimitars looks like this:
Primary:+16/+11/+6/+1/
Off Hand: +16/+11/+6

Hope that made sense.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-22, 04:53 AM
Just so you get an idea of how it works. Brace for the mechanics:

AB = your BAB + relevant modifier + bonuses

No TWF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting): AB -6/AB -10; full-round action
TWF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting): AB -4/AB -4; full-round action
Improved TWF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting): AB -4/AB -4/AB -9/AB -9; full round action. The "-9" is the iterative attack you get and the extra attack from ITWF.
Greater TWF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterTwoWeaponFighting): AB -4/AB -4/AB -9/AB -9/AB -14/AB -14; full round action. The "-9" and "-14" are the iterative attacks you get and the extra attack from ITWF + GTWF.
Perfect TWF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting): AB -4/AB -4/AB -4/AB -4/AB -4/AB -9/AB -14/AB -19; full round action. The "-9", "-14" and "-19" are the iterative attacks you get. PTWF is an Epic feat. All extra attacks with off-hand are done with the same attack bonus (hence, why so many "AB -4")

If you're using a light weapon in your off-hand (basically, if you're using a light or one handed weapon on, say, your right hand and a light weapon such as a dagger on your left hand; invert if your left hand is dominant), all penalties are reduced to a -2.

There are some feats that can aid you for using two weapons (Dual Strike at the Miniatures Handbook, Two Weapon Pounce and Two Weapon Rend from Player's Handbook), and feats that enhance the weapons you can use (Oversized Two Weapon Fighting).

As for how it really works...well, TWF is mostly used to grant an obscene amount of attacks per round at the expense of accuracy. As you probably noticed, the penalties are a tad severe (hence why you always fight with a light weapon and a one-handed weapon); the idea is to max your accuracy and find a good thing that could benefit from multiple strikes (sneak attacks, wounding, greater wounding, ability damage, etc.) and use all those attacks to cripple your opponent. Never use TWF for attacks without a good sense of power (if you want raw damage, there's Power Attack for you)

Kobold-Bard
2009-06-22, 04:57 AM
...That's why it's usually recommended for classes with sources of bonus dice, e.g. rogues, where maximizing the number of attacks to get those dice is the better strategy...

He's not wrong. A Level 20 Rogue with all three feats and a bunch of Shurikens gets 6 attacks. Throw in sneak attack and they're doing 6d2+60d6 per attack at a range of 50ft. Throw in a wand of Improved Invisibility (or be a Ninja and their power to become invisible as a Swift Action) and you have a sickening combo.

kamikasei
2009-06-22, 05:01 AM
He's not wrong.

Actually, T.G. Oskar is more right, or puts it better. It's not just bonus damage dice, rather it's anything that works on a per-hit basis, such as ability damage and the like. Bonus damage dice are just a special case of that general rule.

Rainbownaga
2009-06-22, 05:47 AM
He's not wrong. A Level 20 Rogue with all three feats and a bunch of Shurikens gets 6 attacks. Throw in sneak attack and they're doing 6d2+60d6 per attack at a range of 50ft. Throw in a wand of Improved Invisibility (or be a Ninja and their power to become invisible as a Swift Action) and you have a sickening combo.

How do you get sneak attack with shuriken at 50'?

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-22, 06:34 AM
We had an epic TWF Combat expertise combat reflexes fighter with Dire charge and Overwhelming critical.

If well placed, he spreaded havoc.

More, he had quickdraw, so managed to trow weapons and use things like bolas and whips to short-range battlefield control.

Yeah, the barbarian deal more damage. So what?



How do you get sneak attack with shuriken at 50'?

Yeah, right. SA is 30 ft range.

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 07:47 AM
I was told TWF sucks, so I just assumed. :smalltongue:

Actually, it was just something I read somewhere that I don't really remember. Ah well, my mistake.

Apart from Kamikasei's reasons, TWF also sucks because the mobility usually associated with lightly-armored Dex fighters is hampered because he HAS to stay put to do a full attack. (See: Flurry of Blows Syndrome)

So far the only fixes to these are from ToB, or the Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion.

Cyclocone
2009-06-22, 09:05 AM
Apart from Kamikasei's reasons, TWF also sucks because the mobility usually associated with lightly-armored Dex fighters is hampered because he HAS to stay put to do a full attack. (See: Flurry of Blows Syndrome)

So far the only fixes to these are from ToB, or the Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion.

Exactly, it's the whole charge-fiasco that makes TWF lose, moreso than the lighting feats on fire thing.
When you only get one measly attack per round, you really need it to be the best damn attack you can have, i.e. two-handed PA with a ginormous sword, not one-handed sissy attack with a tiny knife.

Really, if you have time to swing one weapon at the guy, you should have time to swing the other one as well, since you can do it simultaneously.
Unless you're some kind of weird cripple ...which i guess you are, if you're TWFing:smallfrown:

Anyway, the thread title is "How does Two Weapon Fighting work anyway?", to which the only answer can be: "It doesn't". (atleast without ToB)

Kroy
2009-06-22, 09:43 AM
Apart from Kamikasei's reasons, TWF also sucks because the mobility usually associated with lightly-armored Dex fighters is hampered because he HAS to stay put to do a full attack. (See: Flurry of Blows Syndrome)

So far the only fixes to these are from ToB, or the Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion.

What about a Dervish? Wouldn't a Swashbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / Rogue 1 / scout 5 / CoC 2/ dervish 5/ Occult Slayer 2 with the feats Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Expeditious Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat, Daring Outlaw, Mobility, Improved Skirmish Two Weapon Fighting, Greater TWF, Karmic Strike, and Deadly Grace work?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 09:56 AM
What about a Dervish? Wouldn't a Swashbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / Rogue 1 / scout 5 / CoC 2/ dervish 5/ Occult Slayer 2 with the feats Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Expeditious Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat, Daring Outlaw, Mobility, Improved Skirmish Two Weapon Fighting, Greater TWF, Karmic Strike, and Deadly Grace work?

Assuming you're not being sarcastic, the difference is that (A) the barbarian and martial adepts get dual-wielding at 1st level while that build takes until 13th, and (B) the barbarian and martial adepts don't need any particular feats to work.

Eldariel
2009-06-22, 09:59 AM
Dervish 5 gives you 3 dances per day, which kinda sucks since it's the only thing going on for you; I'd always go at least Dervish 9. Also, you don't qualify for Daring Outlaw as it requires +2d6 SA. Also, you'll be totally boned against anything with crit resistance, fortifications or anything of that kind; all your damage is precision damage (Insightful Strike, Elegant Strike, Sneak Attack, Skirmish). Also, qualifying for Sneak Attack can be very tricky with the Dance; you basically need Improved Invisibility 'cause flanking, Hides and such are impractical with the dance's limitations.

You also ran out of feats (you lack Imp. TWF), though Deadly Defense or Karmic Strike could probably be dropped; you don't really plan on getting hit (and your counter attacks are feeble) so Karmic Strike isn't amazing, and Deadly Defense is just a nice damage boost. The overarching theme here is that the amount of crappy feats you have to take for this pretty much ensures that's all you're getting, and dipping multiple different precision damages instead of focusing one type really prevents efficient maximization of that one type (going Ranger 6/Scout 4/Dervish 10 with Swift Hunter for example would net you overall 3 favored enemies whose Crit Immunity you can pierce, along with all the tasty high level Dervish-abilities and some nice bonus feats, while Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/CoC 2/Martial Rogue 1 does much steadier damage over long day thanks to Melee Weapon Mastery-line while having quite impressive precision capabilities in CoC+Swashbuckler still; could go Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3 over CoC 2/Martial Rogue 1 to get 3d6 SA).

Dervish's weakness in general is that it requires 4 feats 3 of which are total crap and 1 of which is mostly a useful prerequisite. You should build up to Elusive Target, Melee Weapon Mastery and Knock-Down to get anything out of them, and that combined with TWF feat expediture and lack of bonus feats from Dervish is just painful.


Really, Dervish meshes best with the ToB classes, but it just doesn't work out without Flaws due to the lack of bonus feats there and the fact that Dervish already doesn't advance IL making additional dips painful. Swordsage 10/Dervish 10 and Warblade 10/Dervish 10 (not in that order) both get some really tasty stuff, especially in the higher end of the progression, but unfortunately are just pains to build. And ToB makes the Dervish-abilities mostly useless in the first place as you get other ways to make up for the TWF problems along your normal progression.

ericgrau
2009-06-22, 11:51 AM
I was told TWF sucks, so I just assumed. :smalltongue:


It's worse at dealing damage, though still semi-viable there. So don't let this discourage you from a cool character concept (as long as it's not Drizz't :smallannoyed:). The trick is to do other things with the extra attacks. The most common way is bonus damage, but classes that get bonus damage tend to be weak in other ways which makes this semi-suicidal. Spell storing weapons are another trick I like (heck, quick draw two more after discharging those two). Bane might work too. Using the attacks to make trip attempts should work too. Use and stack poison. Get creative. Basically use anything that increases with more attacks. But if you only like pounding stuff over and over again, TWF is not for you.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-22, 12:20 PM
It's worse at dealing damage, though still semi-viable there. So don't let this discourage you from a cool character concept (as long as it's not Drizz't :smallannoyed:).
Hey, who made you king of cool? What authority have you to tell him that an angsty Drow who yearns to throw off the oppressive reputation of his evil kinsmen whilst dual wielding scimitars as long as he is can't be cool?

Uncool, man, uncool.

Gorbash
2009-06-22, 12:31 PM
Then we let him have claws on his elbows, like a silver dragon does. 5 attacks in a round. It was shocking how often he hit.

Multiattacking with homebrewed natural weapons isn't really the same as two-weapon fighting, hence irrelevant for this discussion.


So don't let this discourage you from a cool character concept (as long as it's not Drizz't

If you're going to deliberately flame a character, make sure you're at least familiar with the work, which you obviously aren't, since you can't even spell his name right.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 12:39 PM
Hey, who made you king of cool? What authority have you to tell him that an angsty Drow who yearns to throw off the oppressive reputation of his evil kinsmen whilst dual wielding scimitars as long as he is can't be cool?

Uncool, man, uncool.

Ah, but he specifically removed Drizz't from the set of character concepts that are cool--"a cool character concept (as long as it's not Drizz't)"; thus, he obviously finds Drizz't cool, and simply doesn't want competition for his Drizz't clone reinterpretation. :smallbiggrin:

Gorbash
2009-06-22, 12:46 PM
It's DRIZZT. :smallfurious:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-22, 12:57 PM
It's DRIZZT. :smallfurious:

No, he definitely said Drizz't. Maybe he's talking about a different drow? 'Cause no one in their right mind would like Drizzt, that pansy....

ericgrau
2009-06-22, 01:22 PM
I have nothing for or against the original Drow, only the act of playing an unoriginal clone of him. Obviously the (non?-)apostraphe version is one of those clones :smalltongue:. Kinda like what PODL said... kinda.

And calling someone uncool for calling something else uncool, that's uncool man :smallamused:.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-22, 01:24 PM
It's DRIZZT. :smallfurious:

No apostrophe?

Attilargh
2009-06-22, 02:03 PM
No apostrophe. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010117d)

You might be thinking of Grazz't, who appeared as an antagonist in a few of the Drizzt books.

Kobold-Bard
2009-06-22, 03:48 PM
How do you get sneak attack with shuriken at 50'?

I may have been lied to by a player. I apologise for re-passing on this flawed information. All I can offer in recompense is the head of the Ninja who told me he could do that after he dies next session. You lie to the DM, you take your penalty when you get caught.

hamishspence
2009-06-22, 03:58 PM
Isn't there a extended range Sneak attack feat somewhere?

PHB2 Crossbow Sniper feat extends it up to 60 ft with crossbows you have Weapon Focus in, but I haven't spotted anything else.

Mr.Moron
2009-06-22, 04:01 PM
Isn't there a extended range Sneak attack feat somewhere?

PHB2 Crossbow Sniper feat extends it up to 60 ft with crossbows you have Weapon Focus in, but I haven't spotted anything else.

There are a couple spells, and I think items. Though they aren't coming to me off the top of my head. That's to at least 60'. I vaguely recall some method to get unlimited range on it. It's certainly far from impossible though.

Honestly though, does it really matter? Ranged sneak attack is already so mediocre, might be worth it just to throw the restriction out just so you didn't have to bother with a distance check.

Origomar
2009-06-22, 04:08 PM
If you are a level 11 fighter you can just get greater weapon fighting improved criticals, weapon finesse, dual wield a rapier and a kukri, combat expertise, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, whatever the hell else you want you have a lean mean hittin and crittin machine x.x


since you get 4 attacks and your crit threat range is 15-20. so as a standard action you have 4 attacks at a 30% chance to crit on each of them

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 04:08 PM
Assuming you're not being sarcastic, the difference is that (A) the barbarian and martial adepts get dual-wielding at 1st level while that build takes until 13th, and (B) the barbarian and martial adepts don't need any particular feats to work.

Exactly. If the character concept involves a specific tactic, the earlier the tactic becomes viable, the better. ToB's TWF style only gets better: Dancing Mongoose (+one attack with each weapon wielded), then Raging Mongoose (+two attacks with each weapon wielded) and finally the incredibly badass Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (+$TEXAS rend damage).

For the record, the reason I think people are confused about the spelling of Drizzt is that they think of the demon lord Graz'zt. :P


If you are a level 11 fighter you can just get greater weapon fighting improved criticals, weapon finesse, dual wield a rapier and a kukri, combat expertise, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, whatever the hell else you want you have a lean mean hittin and crittin machine x.x


since you get 4 attacks and your crit threat range is 15-20. so as a standard action you have 4 attacks at a 30% chance to crit on each of them


Problem 1: You are penalized on both your weapons. This assuming you actually hit. Only natural 20s are auto-hits.

Problem 2: You still have to confirm those critical hits. With your penalties to your attack bonus, your chance of confirming is handicapped. This is why Improved Critical (which would only work on one of your weapons) is a bad feat choice. You have a feat that works less than 25% of the time. Better to just have the keen enhancement on both weapons if you like crits.

Problem 3: Even when you crit, you don't deal that much damage. Assuming you have 13 strength, W. Spec and G.W. Spec: You deal 2d6+10 damage on a crit. Your offhand deals pretty pathetic damage too (I'd know, I DMed a group with a ranger who used a similar fighting style. Her kukri barely did anything if used without martial maneuvers.) A Power Attack Fighter with a Greatsword could do that much earlier.

If you really want damage on that rapier, the Diamond Mind ToB discipline can essentially allow you to crit when you want: the Gem Nightmare series of maneuvers allows you to make a Concentration check vs. your target's AC. If you hit and make the check, it's +1d6 damage for Sapphire, x2 damage for Ruby, and x4 damage for Diamond.

There are many other ways: Desert Wind allows you to add fire damage on all your attacks, Tiger Claw gives you even more attacks, etc. That's how our ranger dealt damage. She loved shred-cauterizing monsters with Flashing Sun+Burning Blade.

Origomar
2009-06-22, 04:09 PM
I may have been lied to by a player. I apologise for re-passing on this flawed information. All I can offer in recompense is the head of the Ninja who told me he could do that after he dies next session. You lie to the DM, you take your penalty when you get caught.


shuriken have an effective range of 10 feet so you can pick on him for lieing to you about that to.

Mr.Moron
2009-06-22, 04:10 PM
If you are a level 11 fighter you can just get greater weapon fighting improved criticals, weapon finesse, dual wield a rapier and a kukri, combat expertise, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, whatever the hell else you want you have a lean mean hittin and crittin machine x.x


since you get 4 attacks and your crit threat range is 15-20. so as a standard action you have 4 attacks at a 30% chance to crit on each of them

Right. Gotta love those 1d6/1d4+Irrelevant x2 criticals.

Keld Denar
2009-06-22, 04:22 PM
shuriken have an effective range of 10 feet so you can pick on him for lieing to you about that to.

Shurikens have a RANGE INCREMENT of 10'. As a thrown weapon, they have a max range of 5 range increments, or 50 feet, and suffer a -2 penalty to hit PER range increment. Its spelled out right in the rules.

Please please please please read rules before you comment. This forum already has a bad enough problem with spreading erroneous information. Even the best of us make mistakes, but please be careful with this.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-22, 05:07 PM
If you are a level 11 fighter you can just get greater weapon fighting improved criticals, weapon finesse, dual wield a rapier and a kukri, combat expertise, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, whatever the hell else you want you have a lean mean hittin and crittin machine x.x

since you get 4 attacks and your crit threat range is 15-20. so as a standard action you have 4 attacks at a 30% chance to crit on each of them

If I were to handle it, I'd go with, very specifically, replacing one level of Fighter with one level of Warblade, getting Blood in the Water as a stance, either two keen weapons or Imp. Critical plus an Aptitude weapon (that allows you to have Weapon Focus as well, but what you really want is something that works better). Then, go with at least two Exotic Weapon Proficiencies (or just even one if you want) for Ribbon Weapons (x4 crits are no joke), TWF/ITWF/GTWF. By now, that's 5-6 feats of the max 10 the character can have. With Warblade as first level, you can have a Martial Study feat for Pouncing Charge (6-7 feats). The rest would be finding ways to improve that bunch of attacks, and that those deal a lot of damage or deal some special hits: if you're going to progress as Fighter, then probably go all the way with slashing-based Weapon Supremacy (although you may probably need to be human or have some flaws for it), get two slashing weapons (or a double-weapon such as a double scimitar). If feats remain, you may go crazy with Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave (though remember you'll be missing the end-level feat)

It's something crazy and it actually has a bit of lack of thought, but it works better than the proposed idea. It takes benefit from the actual benefit the TWF branch provides (a lot of attacks), even though the accuracy is a bit cruddy. The damage is so-so, but you have the same 30% to land a critical threat, and a top of 30% that damage actually increases.

Heck, this actually makes Weapon Focus a bit useful. Although you only want to get mostly to Slashing Flurry. You may ignore GWF/GWS for three actually useful feats (Martial Study [any Iron Heart stance], Ironheart Aura, then the almighty Stormguard Warrior). Then, get weapons that deal either loads of extra damage or loads of ability damage/status effects with high chance of hitting. And magic items that grant more attacks; that is actually a bit more important.

Not something entirely useful, mind you, but still a funny build for TWFers. I'm actually building something similar, but with Warblade/Eternal Blade instead, not having ITWF, and using the Imp. Crit/Ironheart Aura/Stormguard Warrior/Blood in the Water tactics, plus adding some healing (with Devoted Spirit maneuvers) and the one-two initiative combo (White Raven Tactics and Moment of Alacrity) Still not as useful, but it should be gold later on.

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 05:55 PM
If you are a level 11 fighter

One last problem: Never take odd levels of fighter (they're always dead levels). A Fighter 2/Warblade 9 would be able to pull this off excellently.

ericgrau
2009-06-22, 06:32 PM
One last problem: Never take odd levels of fighter (they're always dead levels)
... unless you intend on fighter 12.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-22, 06:48 PM
... unless you intend on fighter 12....there's a 12th level of Fighter?

Keld Denar
2009-06-22, 06:52 PM
...there's a 12th level of Fighter?

...there's a 7th level of Fighter?

Mr.Moron
2009-06-22, 06:52 PM
...there's a 12th level of Fighter?

This likely a poor decision as well.

Origomar
2009-06-22, 10:08 PM
Excuse my noobiness from posts above and probably the post below.

The point of the build was to get past AC, since crits always land and im sure there are many other ways of doing that more effectively, but i have almost no books and thus don't know them.


also thanks for telling me about the maximum range increment thing i didn't know that :D

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-22, 10:21 PM
...there's a 7th level of Fighter?

... There's a 3rd level of Fighter?

Mr.Moron
2009-06-22, 10:27 PM
Excuse my noobiness from posts above and probably the post below.

The point of the build was to get past AC, since crits always land and im sure there are many other ways of doing that more effectively, but i have almost no books and thus don't know them.


also thanks for telling me about the maximum range increment thing i didn't know that :D

Sorry I'll put aside being a dingus, and post constructively.

...It isn't quite as easy at that, heh.

Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit. When you threaten a critical on a weapon with a wider critical range you still have to hit their AC. So with a +15 attack bonus, on a result of 15 with a 15-20/x2 weapon aganist an enemy with AC 31 you'd still miss.

EDIT: As a new player, you might actually want to stay away from melee types. Their mechanics seem simple, but they're really hard to make work.

If you choose a caster, you can just pick whatever and random spell sounds cool throw it at the enemy and have a reasonable chance of doing it something useful. Even if you have no idea what you're really doing.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-22, 10:52 PM
... There's a 3rd level of Fighter?Dungeoncrasher. ACF from Dungeonscape. Pretty nice, but you need 6 levels to get the full benefits.

Origomar
2009-06-22, 11:15 PM
Sorry I'll put aside being a dingus, and post constructively.

...It isn't quite as easy at that, heh.

Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit. When you threaten a critical on a weapon with a wider critical range you still have to hit their AC. So with a +15 attack bonus, on a result of 15 with a 15-20/x2 weapon aganist an enemy with AC 31 you'd still miss.

EDIT: As a new player, you might actually want to stay away from melee types. Their mechanics seem simple, but they're really hard to make work.

If you choose a caster, you can just pick whatever and random spell sounds cool throw it at the enemy and have a reasonable chance of doing it something useful. Even if you have no idea what you're really doing.


Honestly that's the reason why i don't want to play a pure caster :-/

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 11:24 PM
Excuse my noobiness from posts above and probably the post below.

The point of the build was to get past AC, since crits always land and im sure there are many other ways of doing that more effectively, but i have almost no books and thus don't know them.


also thanks for telling me about the maximum range increment thing i didn't know that :D

It's alright, that's how we all learn.

As has been mentioned, attacks only auto-hit on a natural 20. One really good way to get past AC, I've discovered, is to use the Emerald Razor maneuver from Tome of Battle: Your next attack is a touch attack. Most creatures have very low touch ACs, so your attack is far more likely to hit.

Wow, that's underwhelming. It hits, but doesn't do anything else? Combine it with Power Attack. That way you can afford to drop your attack bonus to really low levels and still hit. A swordsage or warblade can do this as early as level 3.
Assume a 3rd-level warblade with 15 strength and Power Attack. He has a masterwork greatsword, which gives him a total of +6 to his attack bonus, and deals 2d6+3 damage on hitting. If he uses Emerald Razor, he bypasses a great deal of his target's AC (touch AC is typically only 10+Dex bonus+deflection modifier, but Deflection AC bonuses are rare). He penalizes his attack bonus by 3 (maximum at this level), he hits with 2d6+9 damage. All he needed was a feat and a maneuver choice.
A fighter could do this too by taking Power Attack, Martial Study: Moment of Perfect Mind (needed to qualify for Emerald Razor) and Martial Study: Emerald Razor, although he'd only get to access this at 6th level. A warblade would get to do it more often.

Of course, when TWFing, you'd want your offhand to do something too. Again, the Tiger Claw and Desert Wind disciplines help with this.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-23, 12:13 AM
Emerald Razor isn't as interesting as you may think. There's a feat and a weapon property that can do mostly the same, even though technically Emerald Razor turns out better (Brilliant Energy only works on most characters, and Deep Impact requires two extra feats.

For a Power Attack user, Emerald Razor may be an interesting tactic, but in the end it actually cripples the huge amount of damage you can deal. A much more useful tactic would be to use any of the Nightmare Blade maneuvers along Power Attack, since the wording of the actions don't specify only a portion of the damage is multiplied, but damage only. That means that you could argue even ability damage is doubled (or quadruplicated), but mostly that means you can get Power Attack to deal five times the amount of damage (base damage + [4-1] + [2-1] = 5x damage) along having your weapon deal 4.5 times the Strength amount in damage, in a single blow. This is when you may want something like Deep Impact and Psionic Meditation, since you'll be essentially dealing one single mortal blow and recharging your psionic focus for the use of Deep Impact. Make the weapon a ribbon weapon, then use a two handed weapon that deals good damage and has 18-20 of threat range (*coughcoughJovarcoughcough*), make it Keen, and then find a way to deny the enemy's Dexterity bonus to AC. You can only fail on a 1, mostly.

As for TWF, I've found that Rogue benefits a lot because of the sheer amount of hits, although their accuracy takes a dip (though they can handle it well with flanking, Grave/Golem/Plantstrike, and probably Wraithstrike for the heck of it). Also, Warblades and Swordsages get a nice benefit, most importantly with either Stormguard Warrior two-step barrage or through Burning Blade + Assassin's Stance bunch of dice. You can replace Burning Blade with Dancing/Raging Mongoose for extra hits, or simply ignore all that and go straight for Girallon for that. Then, dip it in the end with a nice Time Stands Still move, and a Haste on the rocks. Depending on how many strikes, use one or the other. Then, find weaponry that can do special effects (Enfeebling, Wounding) or that quickly rack up dice of damage (energy weapons, Vicious, etc.).

Again, TWF mostly grants more attacks, which allow extra dice added by attack or special effects activated by melee attack to shine, if only through the sheer amount of attacks (not because of the masterful dexterity) Weapon Finesse helps if you're going to ignore the Strength, since you're already pumping Dex and off hand provides only half the Strength bonus; Strength is only worthwhile to add just a bit more points of damage, but a TWF-conscious build skips it so as long as it can enhance the accuracy and deal huge amounts of damage with the least amount of effort than it already requires. And even then, it's pretty feat-intensive, which means mostly either Fighter or Ranger tend to benefit from it.

AslanCross
2009-06-23, 05:30 AM
Emerald Razor isn't as interesting as you may think. There's a feat and a weapon property that can do mostly the same, even though technically Emerald Razor turns out better (Brilliant Energy only works on most characters, and Deep Impact requires two extra feats.

For a Power Attack user, Emerald Razor may be an interesting tactic, but in the end it actually cripples the huge amount of damage you can deal. A much more useful tactic would be to use any of the Nightmare Blade maneuvers along Power Attack, since the wording of the actions don't specify only a portion of the damage is multiplied, but damage only. That means that you could argue even ability damage is doubled (or quadruplicated), but mostly that means you can get Power Attack to deal five times the amount of damage (base damage + [4-1] + [2-1] = 5x damage) along having your weapon deal 4.5 times the Strength amount in damage, in a single blow. This is when you may want something like Deep Impact and Psionic Meditation, since you'll be essentially dealing one single mortal blow and recharging your psionic focus for the use of Deep Impact. Make the weapon a ribbon weapon, then use a two handed weapon that deals good damage and has 18-20 of threat range (*coughcoughJovarcoughcough*), make it Keen, and then find a way to deny the enemy's Dexterity bonus to AC. You can only fail on a 1, mostly.


Of course, a Diamond Mind-focused Warblade or Swordsage is likely to have all of the above tactics available to him anyway, and much earlier than the 11th-level crit fighter that was mentioned.

But yeah, Stormguard Warrior is probably the single most devastating feat a TWF martial adept could take. That's a lot of bonus damage.

Where's Ribbon from, btw?

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-23, 05:59 AM
...there's a 12th level of Fighter?

...there's a 7th level of Fighter?

... There's a 3rd level of Fighter?

Well.. I've seen a 40th level of fighter. I admit that these times we didn't have so many splatbooks (I mean, If we knew ToB I can say that my playerd would likely multiclass warblade) but he did fine until 40th.

In my experience, you have to be very imaginative to play a fighter but can be played.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-23, 07:02 AM
Of course, a Diamond Mind-focused Warblade or Swordsage is likely to have all of the above tactics available to him anyway, and much earlier than the 11th-level crit fighter that was mentioned.

But yeah, Stormguard Warrior is probably the single most devastating feat a TWF martial adept could take. That's a lot of bonus damage.

Where's Ribbon from, btw?

Enjoy your broken x4 critical weapons! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a)

Though, to be fair: the more multi-hit damage abilities you get, the better. Stormguard TWF Warriors need a bit of preparation, but their one-two punch gets utterly devastating. Avalanche of Blades (or just a single full attack) using Combat Rhythm followed by a Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose strike isn't even funny. It's sure enough to make THE Batman Wizard grant you at least Invisibility so you can unload the motherlode of damage you can unload. Heck, you're aiding the bastard by making him save his resources.

Since, you know, the BW is mostly a buffer/battlefield controller, mind you...

Though, that's not the best thing. Two Enfeebling weapons means that your barrage of attacks will probably end up sending the character's Strength to 0. That's enough to cripple most opponents in case sheer damage isn't enough.

The specific point is to counter constructs, undead and plants, who all have loads of immunities. Mostly, Eternal Blade takes care of DR (not sure if hardness too), and allied castings to your weapon can aid you for that. I need to check the books later to see if you can get a wand or scroll of Disrupting Weapon, and things that rack up damage or outright kill constructs and plants.

Heck, the damage is enough to kill oozes in one turn; even divided isn't enough.

Roderick_BR
2009-06-23, 07:29 AM
We had an epic TWF Combat expertise combat reflexes fighter with Dire charge and Overwhelming critical.

If well placed, he spreaded havoc.

More, he had quickdraw, so managed to trow weapons and use things like bolas and whips to short-range battlefield control.

Yeah, the barbarian deal more damage. So what?

So, you need to be epic to *start* being effective. Dire charge does remove some of the problems of TWF (I walk more than 5ft, so I can't attack with a weapon in my off-hand). A very simple house rule that helps a lot, is to allow a character with TWF to at least attack with each weapon once with a standard attack, when he can't full attack. Combining all the three feats into one helps a lot too.

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-23, 08:32 AM
So, you need to be epic to *start* being effective. Dire charge does remove some of the problems of TWF (I walk more than 5ft, so I can't attack with a weapon in my off-hand). A very simple house rule that helps a lot, is to allow a character with TWF to at least attack with each weapon once with a standard attack, when he can't full attack. Combining all the three feats into one helps a lot too.

No, you don't need to be epic. even if in you point there is the key of the problem (and why people love ToB, I guess): scaling.

Each level, spellcaster get new spell... to fill a feat tree, even of 3 feats.. well...

Actually, in that campaign players and DM managed together in this way: the wizard crafted equipment for everybody (they were 11 at end campaign!), but a little bit more for meleers, and I closed an eye on wealth by level (not too much!).

Anyway, consider that that fighter was an awesome animal trainer (they had 4 giant worms from 4 manuals polymorphed in canary) and he was the leader of the group (and the captain of they plane-sailing ship, Cavalcavento).

He asked once to his caster to create a demiplane, then he managed to kidnap an orc tribe and pushed it into the demiplane with some Reks from arcadia and managed to convert and educate the orks.

Just example, we can say, about things to do between levels. Not to justify poor design, anyway.

BTW i find your houserule reasonable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-23, 03:22 PM
Well.. I've seen a 40th level of fighter. I admit that these times we didn't have so many splatbooks (I mean, If we knew ToB I can say that my playerd would likely multiclass warblade) but he did fine until 40th.

In my experience, you have to be very imaginative to play a fighter but can be played.What feats was he taking at Fighter 40? At level 10, you have 6 Fighter feats, and 4-7 other feats. By 20, that's 11 and 7-10 others. At that point, what decent feats are left?

Melamoto
2009-06-23, 05:39 PM
This is going to sound stupid, I know it, but a well built Truenamer helps cover up any mobility issues thanks to the ability which lets an ally take an extra move action in a turn. Now there's just the issue of the Truenamer.

Origomar
2009-06-24, 02:34 AM
Feat god is the proper term for a 40th level fighter

(I am master at everything and nothing at the same time!)

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-24, 02:49 AM
This is going to sound stupid, I know it, but a well built Truenamer helps cover up any mobility issues thanks to the ability which lets an ally take an extra move action in a turn. Now there's just the issue of the Truenamer.

A Marshal cohort can do exactly the same, plus provide a minor aura and a major aura for the benefit it provides. Though the actions are limited, you can get a bit more mileage out of it. Heck, if you think that the Truenamer's skill is much better, a solid dip into Marshal still works wonders!

Though, a Marshal cohort with Bard levels...now that's one good buffer. Well...not enough of a good buffer, but hey, they should have invented a feat that combined Bard and Marshal for the extra buffs.

Then again, there's a Bard/Crusader or Warblade/Song of the White Raven/White Raven Tactics/Order Forged from Chaos cohort, which can solve permanently your movement needs. Cheesy, sure, but effective. The latter one can be much better since it can be played by a pal as well, and still make it mighty effective.

I'd go and add Two Weapon Rend to the mix, since it'll always add a bit of damage, though it's Strength-based. Still, it's a good-flavor feat for a TWF character that has lots of feats floating around after all. Much better than that silly Two Weapon Pounce, that is.

AslanCross
2009-06-24, 03:35 AM
Feat god is the proper term for a 40th level fighter

(I am master at everything and nothing at the same time!)

It would be truly tragic if he were core only.

"Hi, I just took Weapon Focus for the 4th time! Look! I'M BETTER WITH GREATCLUBS NOW!"

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-24, 01:32 PM
Feat god is the proper term for a 40th level fighter

(I am master at everything and nothing at the same time!)Except that specialization is the key to being good at something in D&D. He could be an Archer, but then he's Dex rather than Str-focused, and can't melee as well. He could be a tripper, except then he can't afford a good lance to charge with. He can have Dungeon Crasher and one of the melee builds, and maybe have some halfway-decent work on the other, but really, he's still goin to run out of good feats fast.

woodenbandman
2009-06-24, 06:16 PM
... There's a 3rd level of Fighter?

There's a class named Fighter? What is that, like, a prestige class? And it has 12 levels? Weird. What level can I take it at?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-24, 08:51 PM
There's a class named Fighter? What is that, like, a prestige class? And it has 12 levels? Weird. What level can I take it at?

No, it's a base class, but I'm sorry, the power level is inappropriate for most campaigns; you most likely won't be allowed to play one. Since it's impossible to start below 0th level....

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-25, 05:42 AM
Except that specialization is the key to being good at something in D&D. He could be an Archer, but then he's Dex rather than Str-focused, and can't melee as well. He could be a tripper, except then he can't afford a good lance to charge with. He can have Dungeon Crasher and one of the melee builds, and maybe have some halfway-decent work on the other, but really, he's still goin to run out of good feats fast.

Well, IIRC, he had the TWF tier to 8 attacks/round.. Imp/superior Init and Dire charge, 4-5 feats of combat expertise, Power Attack to Overwhelming critical, and a bunch of Combat Reflexes Feats. In late campaing he took Weapon Supremacy too :smalltongue:

Consider these things:

- They were 11 player. If 6 casters (Cleric OadvShaman Druid Sorc Wiz Psion) buff you up, even a commoner is dangerous

-Yeah, there are more powerful options out there (our current fighter took charge feats) but we hadn't so many splat at the time..

- He was very smart and imaginative,RP wise was more like a warlord, his action a lot of time were directed to disable an opponent and to coordinate his companions.

- The wizard of the partywas a great crafter, and managed that every player, mainly the melee, have a good weapon or more. Further, the campaing was centered upon fighting the nine hells, so an holy evil outiser bane weapon was more than useful. In my experience, maybe because we don't optimize a lot, take a bow (or an harpoon, or bolas, a whip) if it's the case is not a bad idea.

Don't get me wrong: probably, if our group knew ToB before (as far as I know, has not even translated in Italian because they dropped 3rd edition books translation when 4th was announced so people have to buy it in the english version) probably our fighter would multiclass warblade after a while, and I want introduce the book for our current campaing, too, just because a simple dip in swordsage or warblade at high levels is far better than a bonus feat. And give player more options is a good thing (and a good excuse to trow them the uber-monster, say, Asmodeus riding Demogorgon).

But consider the fighter unusable is quite exaggerated, IMHO. It's not so strong, expecially if you "stretch" the game a little bit.. quite obvious, there are game mechanics more "customizable" and other less. Please consider that not every group play at the same way. *

I remember a group of guys my group met (in real, I mean) in a sort of convention. they were level two from 1 year or so, they fought very rarely and role-played fairy tale style. This don't bring to me or to you the right to mock them, even if their gamestyle it's so different from our.


*I mean, feats scale poorly. That's why. Personally, there are a lot of things in the book that I like a lot, some I like less, and few I don't like (maneuvers names are retarded, but can be can be easily refluffed). I've my problems with Crusader mechanics, and the fact that devoted spirit heals as an (Ex).

Warblade e Swordsage, I like the concept a lot. I like their Skills too, points and everithing. About maneuvers, I find some slightly cheesy, but I prefer a more powerful thing that a less (example: girallon wildmill vs two weapon rend feat. Ok, the former equals to a lot of d6, but better than a pathetic rend once per round. Come on..)

Please note that my few concerns are not mainly about the power of a move: as an example, I wonder why Exorcism of Steel is not permanent.

Personally, at first sight, the maneuvers I appreciate more are those about movement. Bounding Assault, I find it almost noob friendly but is simply beautiful if linked with skills, and I love the TC stance allowing 1,5 f step after each attack.

In an ipotethical new version of D&D, I'd prefer things like this connected directly with character Skills (say, you can move this way if you have these ranks in tumble and so on) but we have to play with what we have.

For my tastes, regardless the power, I prefer the fighter vs the ToB concept because I dislike "cooldowns", but at least in ToB are well explained fluff-wise.

Well, now I stop becasue the post is long and I want to wait because one thing is a class on paper and another is a class in game.

Said this, I'll back for advices about an high level dip in warblade :smallwink: