PDA

View Full Version : Natural spell metamagic fix



paddyfool
2009-06-22, 09:08 AM
The following comes out of a discussion that threatened to slightly derail the VUACS thread:

Assertion: Natural Spell is too good, and is a big part of what makes druids overpowered. If they had any real cost to being wild shaped, it might make things a little more interesting, tactically, for them, while also making them less easy to be made monstrously overpowered.

Suggestion: Nerf it by making it a metamagic feat which bumps up the slot taken by a spell.

Suggestion in detail: Split natural spell into two metamagic feats, as follows:

Lesser natural spell (+1 metamagic): Any spell this is applied to may be cast while in wild shape, and only then. Prerequisites: Wis 13+, Wild shape class ability.

Greater natural spell (+2 metamagic): Any spell this is applied to may be cast either while in wild shape or while not. Prerequisites: Wis 15+, Wild shape class ability, Lesser natural spell.

This would go some way to addressing the imbalance; however, as written, I doubt the "greater" version would see much play. We could give some other bonus to it, for instance "while cast in wild shape, a spell this is applied to lasts twice as normal as usual, as extend spell". An extended duration is generally quite useful for a druid, whether for summoning, buffs, or to a lesser extent save or suck, without being overpowered. We could also add extend spell to the prerequisites in that case, which would make this far from a shoe-in. Or am I overcomplicating things?

J.Gellert
2009-06-22, 09:36 AM
Maybe you are overcomplicating things. What I did was simply make it one metamagic feat with +2 cost.

Technically, it is the equivalent of a stilled and silent spell rolled into one feat, but with a more limited use.

(I don't remember what happens with material components when you wildshape but that's because we never use them in our games).

DracoDei
2009-06-22, 09:51 AM
Just make it plus one for the enhanced version, or, at the least, role it into a single feat with two options.

Not really Stilled and Silent... still doesn't work in the area of a Silence spell, nor can you case while grappled. In any urban environment the noise made by any combat worthy form is going to draw attention, except perhaps a horse... but horses don't belong indoors, and a riderless horse draws attention out doors, and if you have another party member ride you, you have already blow the "nobody here but us chickens" factor. Granted they don't realize there is spellcasting going on, but at that point you are into enough smart roleplay rather than "get a bigger hammer" that I don't see any problem.

J.Gellert
2009-06-22, 09:58 AM
That's why I said with a more limited use.

Basically, you don't want to make it much harder to cast (read: more than +2 modifier), because Druids will take still and silent instead as they will give them the same effect and more.

paddyfool
2009-06-22, 10:28 AM
Fair enough. That would be simpler, although I quite liked the tactical niceties of a lesser version that only works while wild shaped. The problem remains of the additional bonus of being able to cast either way not being worth an extra +1, however... so probably just a straight +2 for the feat as written would be best. EDIT: Or just having the +1, wild shape only version, but reminding them that they could go the Stilled Silent route to casting either way if they really wanted.

Sereg
2009-06-22, 11:02 AM
Of course, making it result in an increase in level equal to silent and stilled while silent and stilled have adiitional advantages means that the only advantage that it has over them is that it's one feat instead of two.

This means that any druid thinking about taking either silent or still spell should take both and ignore natural spell.

Of course, that's not to bad but it leads to some unusual effects (a world where optimised druids don't have natural spell? *gasp*)

J.Gellert
2009-06-22, 11:05 AM
One less feat required is a good thing in my book, and who takes silent/still anyway?

Of course, I can imagine it might be balanced even with +1 spell level adjustment, but... Maybe it's just me hating druids for being so overpowered straight out of core.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-22, 11:09 AM
I completely agree with your fix, Paddy, except for the price. I think that Lesser Natural Spell should be have a +0 spell slot, while Greater Natural Spell should have a +1 spell slot. You're still cashing in a feat to use either one of these, & that's a cost that shouldn't be ignored. There is an economy of sorts to feats, & Natural Spell is not entirely free (it's just massively underpriced & too easily paid for).

Also, you should credit Set (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=44734) for helping to inspire this fix. Lesser Natural Spell is basically his original idea on the subject.


One less feat required is a good thing in my book, and who takes silent/still anyway?

There isn't a caster at my table who doesn't take at least one of these. Even the Bard (think about it). Then again, some of my more intelligent villains seek out enemy casters & spam silence or hold spells. :smallamused:

paddyfool
2009-06-22, 07:36 PM
Good point - I should have given more credit where it was due. I'm still not sure that even "cast in wild shape only" should be free, however - it has great potential to be abused at higher levels when a druid might spend pretty mch all his time as a polar bear (or whatever).

Incidentally, if we were to assign a cost to this, whatever cost it might be, there should probably be an item that allows a certain number of spells to count as Natural Spells daily (a rod equivalent, but possible to activate while in Wild Shape). So, take the cost for a +1 metamagic rod, and multiply by... something ... for a slot accessible while in Wild Shape. You could also have a rod for casting spells which already have the one-way Natural Spell metamagic on them while not in Wild Shape, which would cost the same as an ordinary +1 Metamagic Rod (ie 3000 gp for lesser, 11,000 gp for normal, or 24,500 gp for greater).

I've also had another idea that wouldn't burn through the feats too badly: one feat for both lesser and greater natural spell

Natural Spell [Metamagic]
EDIT: Requirements: Wild shape class ability, Wis 13+
With this feat, you may either:
- Make a spell capable of being cast in wild shape only. This spell takes up a slot one higher than it would otherwise.
- Make a spell capable of being cast whether in wild shape or not. This spell takes up a slot two higher than it would otherwise.

I doubt many players would often use the +2 option, since higher level slots are valuable, but it could be nice to have it there. How does that sound?

DracoDei
2009-06-22, 08:06 PM
I am too lazy to look right now, but I thought that the idea of turning it into a feat had already been thought of? In any case, I susport it.

On thought is that that must be applied LAST in any chain of metamagic feats, and it only works on spells of up to level three, but has no level increase. Then make a follow on feat that works for spells of up to 6th level and MAYBE has a +1, and a third that works for any spell, and has a level increase of +1 if the starting level is 7th or higher, and none if the starting level is 6th or lower... some variation of that ought to be good. That way the lower level druids have to pick carefully, and the higher level ones have to invest more feats or only be able to use low level spells in Wild Shape and even then have to pay for it.

lesser_minion
2009-06-23, 05:20 AM
I guess you could go with:

Natural Spell [metamagic]:

Prerequisites: Wild Shape Class Feature

Benefit: Spells affected by this feat which you attempt to cast in animal form have no verbal, somatic or divine focus components.

In addition, you may also ignore any material or focus component costing 1gp or fewer for spells cast while in animal form.

Special: Spells affected by this feat have a level two higher than normal. You must apply this feat to every spell you prepare or cast spontaneously, and cannot mitigate against the adjustment in any way whatsoever.

It may be a little harsh, but I quite like the idea of actually forcing a druid to give up some power for better synergy between class features - I was always under the impression that the core druid's balancing factor was supposed to be little or no synergy between class features in any event.

paddyfool
2009-06-23, 05:25 AM
Special: Spells affected by this feat have a level two higher than normal. You must apply this feat to every spell you prepare or cast spontaneously, and cannot mitigate against the adjustment in any way whatsoever.


I don't like it - a feat that makes the druid less powerful while not in wild shape would even further enhance the "be a bear the whole time" behaviour.

Sereg
2009-06-23, 06:50 AM
One thing that I considered was to give them spell failure chance as if they were casting an arcane spell with a somatic componant in armour.

That way, you could give a lower increase in spell level.

DracoDei
2009-06-23, 07:10 AM
If you are going to make it required then +1 level is the least you can do, even if, for no apparent reason you are including the full benefits of Silence and Still. Also, I would let them pick on any given day whether to activate the feat or not when preparing spells.

paddyfool
2009-06-23, 07:14 AM
If you are going to make it required then +1 level is the least you can do, even if, for no apparent reason you are including the full benefits of Silence and Still. Also, I would let them pick on any given day whether to activate the feat or not when preparing spells.

That's the beauty of a metamagic feat - they can apply the metamagic feat as they choose to different spells, e.g.

"Barkskin" (can only cast while not in wild shape)
"Lesser Natural Magic Fang" (can only cast in wild shape, takes up a slot one level higher)
"Greater Natural Entangle" (can cast either in wild shape or not, takes up a slot two levels higher)

Those are probably crappy examples of what you'd apply this to, but they're the first three druid spells that came to mind.

Set
2009-06-23, 08:06 AM
The problem with making it a +1 level adjustment metamagic, IMO, is that the Druid is paying +1 spell level adjustment and eating a feat, to be able to Still & Silent a spell (normally a +2 LA) *but also make it unusable when he's not in animal form, which has a set duration.*

He's already going to be making a tactical choice, during spell preparation. These spells I will prepare to be usable during my X hours / day of Wild Shape, these spells I will prepare to be usable when that duration is up. If he is forced to change out of Wild Shape (to function in a community or social situation, for example), any spell prepared as a Natural Spell is closed off to him, and if he's 5th level, that means any of those Natural Spells he didn't cast are gone, until tomorrow, when he gets another use of Wild Shape.

The 'only in Wild Shape' limitation makes it a real choice, and, IMO, balances it out without the need for a level adjustment.

Having two feats, and requiring a +2 level adjustment defeats the entire point, as any Druid could prepare all of his spells Stilled and Silent and burn the same number of Feats and accept the same amount of level adjustment, making it a bit of flavor text added to a Druid with Still and Silent spell, more than anything.

Natural Spell, as written, is seen as too good. Just making it a Metamagic Feat balances it acceptably. Adding a level-adjustment (or breaking it into two feats) is an over-reaction, IMO, the sort of thing that game designers (particularly online game developers) do all the time.

I prefer to back things down one change at a time, until I find an acceptable balance point, rather than 'nerf by committee' and slash away on all sides. Natural Spell hasn't destroyed any of my games, so I'm not exactly filled with fiery retribution against the feat. I just think it gives a little too much and doesn't require any sort of tactical choice, as metamagic feats do. Turning it into a Metamagic Feat addresses that one specific problem.

Adding a few other Druid-friendly Metamagic Feats might also be welcome. One thing I've noticed with many games is that if a Class is seen as 'too good,' it tends to get crap all in the way of new stuff.

A Summoning-specific feat that allows a Druid to SNA animals (and only animals, not fey or elementals) advanced a size category could be neat.

DracoDei
2009-06-23, 08:10 AM
That's the beauty of a metamagic feat - they can apply the metamagic feat as they choose to different spells,
I was specifically responding to Lesser Minion, not the original post or anything else. He had an "Have to apply it to everything" clause.

paddyfool
2009-06-23, 11:18 AM
He's already going to be making a tactical choice, during spell preparation. These spells I will prepare to be usable during my X hours / day of Wild Shape, these spells I will prepare to be usable when that duration is up. If he is forced to change out of Wild Shape (to function in a community or social situation, for example), any spell prepared as a Natural Spell is closed off to him, and if he's 5th level, that means any of those Natural Spells he didn't cast are gone, until tomorrow, when he gets another use of Wild Shape.

The 'only in Wild Shape' limitation makes it a real choice, and, IMO, balances it out without the need for a level adjustment.

Having two feats, and requiring a +2 level adjustment defeats the entire point, as any Druid could prepare all of his spells Stilled and Silent and burn the same number of Feats and accept the same amount of level adjustment, making it a bit of flavor text added to a Druid with Still and Silent spell, more than anything.


I take your point - my original suggestion was much too much of a nerf.

In a later post, I did tone down my suggestion to one feat for both functions (the +1 wild shape only and the +2 to use in whichever shape), which is actually softer than what earlier posters say they have their feat do (only giving the option for +2 to use a spell in whichever shape). Also, the magic items I suggested (metamagic rods etc.) should be able to mitigate the impact to some extent.

EDIT: Also, the problem with just making a spell wild shape only is that a level 6 druid can spend 12 hours a day in Wild Shape; while dungeon crawling etc., this by itself is insignificant as a nerf.

Mercenary Pen
2009-06-23, 12:25 PM
"Lesser Natural Magic Fang" (can only cast in wild shape, takes up a slot one level higher)

Or, at later levels, "Lesser Natural Greater Magic Fang".

paddyfool
2009-06-23, 05:08 PM
Or, at later levels, "Lesser Natural Greater Magic Fang".

Yeah, the names could do with work...

How about "Natural" for the +1 wild shape-only option, and "True natural" for the +2 whichever option? This would make the examples given "Natural (greater) magic fang" and "True natural entangle".

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 06:06 PM
Yeah, the names could do with work...

How about "Natural" for the +1 wild shape-only option, and "True natural" for the +2 whichever option? This would make the examples given "Natural (greater) magic fang" and "True natural entangle".

I think "wild" (lesser) and "natural" (greater) would work better--wild magic fang works in wild shape, and natural magic fang works in a natural-as-in-nature form and natural-as-in-your-own-body form.

Jane_Smith
2009-06-23, 06:14 PM
Imma in jour thread, tossing my 2 cent throwing stars all pew-pew like! D=

Natural Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while polymorphed. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material component or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while polymorphed unless that form is normally capable of speech. A natural spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
You still must speak or be capable of making noises for the verbal components of the spell, and thus you are still susceptible to silence effects.

Behold. Something that helps all casters, not just druids, and is hefty enough level cost to keep it from being to abused.

Yakk
2009-06-23, 06:21 PM
Natural Spell (feat): Select 2 spells. You may cast these spells while in Wild Shape, despite your inability to speak or make gestures or manipulate/access your material components or divine focus.

When you gain a level in druid or a PrC that advances druid casting, you may change one of the two spells you have selected.

You may take this feat more than once. Each time, select another 2 spells.

...

Sure, I'm evil. Note that the above suggests that, while Wild Shaped, a spell with any requirements cannot be cast.

In essence, if DruidZilla wants to be able to be a full-caster with Fighter+ level melee abilities, DruidZilla has to pay a feat tax for it.

lesser_minion
2009-06-24, 06:33 AM
That last fix works pretty well as well.

I guess there's always the option of having the feat work a limited number of times per day or cost extra uses of Wild Shape. This could be a possibility:

Natural Spell [druid]

Prerequiste: Wild Shape Class Feature

Benefit: When changing into animal form using your Wild Shape class feature, you may choose to retain the ability to cast spells, at the expense of reducing the duration of your Wild Shape to one minute per druid level.

If you choose to do so, then while in animal form, you may cast spells with verbal or somatic components by substituting various animal noises and movements. This grants neither the ability to speak nor the ability to manipulate objects with humanlike hands.

Additionally, when using this feat, you may cast spells which use a focus, divine focus or material component which has melded into your animal form.

Normal: A druid cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, focus or divine focus components while using his Wild Shape class feature.