Ammo enchantment?

[Nolfar]

I noticed awhile ago that enchanted ammo really, really, really sucks for it's cost because it always breaks when it deals damage and has a 50% chance to break on a miss (the ammo itself, no tthe weapon used to launch it, obviously). For awhile (actually up until now) I just made a mental note to not bother with destroyable weapons and enchantments, but I've been playing Icewind Dale 2 and ran across a lovely little pice of ammo for my archer. Basically, it's a returning arrow, but that wouldn't tecnically work in 3.5 (or 3.0 I think) because of the aforementioned breakage.

So, without further adue, mynew enchantment:

Everlasting - Ammo with the Everlasting enchantment cannot be destroyed simply in the act of launching it. Sundering, lighting on fire or other destructive means can destroy the ammunition, but the simple act of hitting something (or missing) does not break it. Only breakable ranged ammunition may be given this ability.

Cost: +2 enhancement; to make: CL 9, Make Whole, Craft Magical Arms and Armor

[Rei_Jin]

Sounds good, but you should alter it slightly. Make it a +3 mod, and give it a base of the returning ability that a throwing weapon can have. That way it's like the next step up in the chain.

[Tomada]

I present you, the:

Quiver of Retrieving

This quiver comes with a package of 50 arrows. They all look normal, but they aren't. These arrows won't break in a miss, and they will return to the quiver if they don't hit a sentient creature(be it undead, construct, plant, ooze, humanoid, etc...), and fall within 30ft distance of the quiver.

Moderate transmutation; Craft wondrous item, unseen servant; 2000 gp.

I made it up. Maybe there is something like this already, but whatever.

[Rei_Jin]

Due to the chaos that ensue with trying to keep track of arrows used ( Does anyone actually do so?) I got around this by making my PC's pay for a quiver of infinite arrows.

Cost? 2,000gp. If you want to enchant it further, it costs you as if it was already a +1 weapon. So, to make them +1 costs you another 6,000gp. And so on. The ability to pull out the different metal types each cost a +1 mod.

They still bought it though.

[Tomada]

hum... some you actually have infinite magic arrows?

Maybe I will buy one of those and sell some arrows...

[Rei_Jin]

Of course, the arrows only last 3 rounds once they are removed from the quiver, and if you try and pass them to anyone, or anyone but you tries to take them out of the quiver, they disappear back to wherever they were summoned from.

[Tomada]

3 rounds? I think it's enough to convince someone to buy then... and then convince that THEY broke the arrows, not me! HUAHUHAUHAUAHUa. I do love bards and stupid high social skill checks.

[Rei_Jin]

Ah yes, but who would buy a magic item without first casting Identify on it, which takes 1 hour?

If you are trying to sell them as non-magical arrows, what point is there to that?

[Tomada]

Nah! If you're at least a mid level bard, who sucks at social skills you still have 99% chance of convincing that merchant that those arrows are good in about... 0 secconds! (speaking IS a free action after all).

Any 7th level bard should have Glibness anyway. But let's not hijack this threadm ok? ;)

But, nice item anyway ;D

Edit: Ok, now, where did I get it that it was 5th level, anyway?

[Rei_Jin]

Ah, I hate to point this out, but Glibness is a level 3 spell, meaning that you need to be at least level 7 to cast it.

Plus, no bard who ever wants to go back to a town would do that. As far as he travels, his bad name travels as well.

[Parallax]

Due to the chaos that ensue with trying to keep track of arrows used ( Does anyone actually do so?)
Actually, yes. Otherwise who is stopping a low-level character from getting masterwork ranged fighting for 120gp or less? (normal bow, 20 masterwork arrows, "lose track" of count. Voila!)
Not keeping track of things is also known as cheating. I have seen sorcerers with 6 STR who didn't care about it because they never fought in melee and their GM did not force them to keep track of the weight they carried.
Maybe I should start a 'how to cheat in the name of simplicity' thread?

Back on topic, I like the property and I believe it to be priced fairly at +2. I actually like that the arrows are not returning by default, so one has the option of adding that property if desired.

[Nolfar]

Sounds good, but you should alter it slightly. Make it a +3 mod, and give it a base of the returning ability that a throwing weapon can have. That way it's like the next step up in the chain.

Actually I intended for it to be a stand alone, but it does mix very well with the returning ability (much like the throwing with melee weapons). As is, it totals a +3 enchantment for them both, which works well enough for me really.

That said, I give you the Specific Weapon variant, feel free to use this in your campaigns or whatever if you want.

The Ever-Ready Arrow: The +2 Silver Longbow Arrow is an archer's dream. When fired from any bow, it flies true and then returns intact to the quiver. Returning in this manner reopens the inital wound, dealing 1 point of constitution damage. Returning takes a round after being fired, so many archers pack multiple of these or other arrows.

Moderate Transmutation; CL 15; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Teleport or Dimention Door, Make Whole, Mordenkien's Sword. Price 4150, exp 324

[Rigeld2]

So youre essentially giving them returning, and wounding, for 4150gp crafting price?

Done, in a heartbeat.

[Matthew]

I like to have my player's keep track of Arrows (though I usually have to pay attention as well); it can be fun when they run out of necessary ammunition at a critical juncture, but I get what Rei Jin is saying. It all depends on the campaign style; I like to keep track of a lot of elements, but it has the potential to be very time consuming.

[RoboticSheeple]

;D Personally I'm a fan of the Quiver that I came up with for my people to use if they wanted it.

Quiver of Exchange
Cost: 5000GP
Weight: 5lb
What does it do?
As a move action (the feat quick draw reduces this to a free action) place one GP into the quiver to recieve 5d4 arrows. The Gold piece is then lost forever, only one gold piece may be placed in the quiver at a time, placing another gold piece into the quiver causes the loss of the gold piece but produces no additional arrows.
Faint Transmutation

It makes just basic arrows and produces an average of 12.5 arrows a time so it does cost more per arrow. but this way people have less worries about running out; at the cost of gaining far more useful magical items.

[Dr._Weird]

I like to have my player's keep track of Arrows (though I usually have to pay attention as well); it can be fun when they run out of necessary ammunition at a critical juncture, but I get what Rei Jin is saying. It all depends on the campaign style; I like to keep track of a lot of elements, but it has the potential to be very time consuming.

Yeah, this definitely helps when some player for some reason buys ONE DART! I'm still wondering why one of my players did that...

[Nolfar]

So youre essentially giving them returning, and wounding, for 4150gp crafting price?

Done, in a heartbeat.

As I recall, ammunition is at 1/20 the normal price, as listed here. Though I could stand to bump up the price a bit by virtue of it no longer being destroyed so easily.

[Dhavaer]

I'd suggest a price for that arrow of about 50000gp, plus the cost for a silver arrow.
It's about equivalent to a +5 weapon, so it should be priced as such.

[Tomada]

I *think* Nolfar have referrenced that price to a single arrow.

Not the whole lot.

[Dhavaer]

It's an arrow that can be used over and over again, so it should be priced as a throwing weapon rather than ammunition.

[Tomada]

]
(snip)
Returning takes a round after being fired, so many archers pack multiple of these or other arrows.

Hah! I think that states that the price is for a one and lone arrow.

[Rigeld2]

My point is youre essentially making 1 arrow cost 4150gp, so 41500 gold for 10. Call it 50k to pay for the xp to craft, and a tip on top of that.

For that 50k youre effectively getting 10 +6-7 arrows, when normally 10 +6-7 arrows would cost 14.4k-19.6k

The main difference is, youll never have to buy more arrows.

[Dhavaer]

Why are you posting that? I can't find a comment that says anything different.

[Tomada]

It's an arrow that can be used over and over again, so it should be priced as a throwing weapon rather than ammunition.


Yes, but it still need a BOW to be fired. It still doesn't threat a square near you, you still have penalties using it in melee (throwing generally makes fine melee weapons as well), you can't apply normal bonuses for throwing weapons (like str to damage) and there must be another things too.

[Dhavaer]

It has fantastic range for an attack that never runs out, has an inappropriate ability (Wounding). Needing some cash for a bow to fire it isn't much of a disadvantage.

[Tomada]

Why are you posting that? I can't find a comment that says anything different.


Sorry, I know you haven't, but we simu posted back there.

And I though it wasn't clear enough, so I brought this up. Not necessarilly to you, but to everyone that didn't notice it the first time around.

[Dhavaer]

Right then. I just couldn't see any references to the price apart from Rigeld's.

[bosssmiley]

I present you, the:

Quiver of Retrieving

This quiver comes with a package of 50 arrows. They all look normal, but they aren't. These arrows won't break in a miss, and they will return to the quiver if they don't hit a sentient creature(be it undead, construct, plant, ooze, humanoid, etc...), and fall within 30ft distance of the quiver.

Moderate transmutation; Craft wondrous item, unseen servant; 2000 gp.

I made it up. Maybe there is something like this already, but whatever.
I *love* this item Tomada, it's flavourful and fantastic in the cool "gosh, wow!" sense without being overpowering. Might use rumour of one of these as a lure to the ranger character in my current game. :)

Maybe you could add mending to the construction requirements to signify the unseen servant doing some deft repair work on reusable arrows, or would this drive the cost too high?

[Dhavaer]

Adding mending to the pre-reqs shouldn't alter the cost at all, it's still having the same effect.

[Nolfar]

Insofar as the price goes, as I said, it could probibly use being bumped up, that's just something close to the price by RAW (I was a wee bit lasy and didn't look up the exact cost for silver masterwork ammo). Given that it does require a bow to be used at range (tecnically you can use it as an improvised dagger, per RAW, but I think I might add in a line that being used so will snap it on a successful hit, as opposed to launching it) and that it's only fully useful by itself if you've only got one if you're low level anyway bcause of the time required to get another, I think it should be at least no more than 1/2, likely ALOT lower (realize that a 16th level Ranger would need, at minimum, 4 of these to use them all in one round, to always have one handy) I'll probibly change the price to be closer to 1/8th or so the normal magical price.

Also, as a Specific Weapon, it gains some liberties over normal weapons, but also isn't normally avaible without a) magic item crafting or b) finding it in treasure. Also note that the listed price is 1/2 market value as it's the creation cost to begin with.

[Dhavaer]

What you have to realise, though, is that it's very powerful, the equivalent of a +5 weapon. A bow isn't terribly expensive when you start to get magic items, so that's negligible.
You don't need more than one of them either, you can use one of them and some ordinary arrows if you need to full attack.
If it were just a +1 arrow with the ability to return unbroken, I'd say 5000 gp per piece would be entirely reasonable.
Wounding (which shouldn't be on a ranged weapon) + Returning + enhancement bonus gives you an equivalent of +5, and you really shouldn't make it lower than that.

[Amotis]

Use lucky. From the Psionics Handbook. eXPsi!

[Tomada]

I *love* this item Tomada, it's flavourful and fantastic in the cool "gosh, wow!" sense without being overpowering. Might use rumour of one of these as a lure to the ranger character in my current game. :)

Maybe you could add mending to the construction requirements to signify the unseen servant doing some deft repair work on reusable arrows, or would this drive the cost too high?


Of course not! I used some guidelines but the price is more a factor of usefulness then rules. Actually, usefulness is a rule to actually compose the price.

Be free to use it, just don't call it your own.

[Tomada]

What you have to realise, though, is that it's very powerful, the equivalent of a +5 weapon. A bow isn't terribly expensive when you start to get magic items, so that's negligible.
You don't need more than one of them either, you can use one of them and some ordinary arrows if you need to full attack.
If it were just a +1 arrow with the ability to return unbroken, I'd say 5000 gp per piece would be entirely reasonable.
Wounding (which shouldn't be on a ranged weapon) + Returning + enhancement bonus gives you an equivalent of +5, and you really shouldn't make it lower than that.


But... with 5k you would be better upgrading the bow itself! And remember the bonus from arrows and bows won't stack. so, probably this arrow is just as good as any other arrow. But is 5000 times more expensive


Like I said usefulness IS considered in the rules. They recomend you look for an item of similar power and price it in the same range. As we don't really have anything closer, I will do my reasoning:

First, the next best thing you could have for an arrow, is just enchant the bow itself. and, as you already pointed out, it's the same as a +5 bow. A bow will fire infinite arrows with those properties, but with the same price you would get only 50 arrows. Yes, they are now indestructible and maybe well be used over 50 times, just as the bow. BUT, the minimun amount one should have to always be able to fire, is 5, so the listed price for 5 arrows may be fair. wich is 10k gp per arrow, more or less what was calculated. (by Nolfar, that is).

I realize that he may as well top some other bonuses on the bow itself. But is it a problem? Arrows are one very fragile thing, if you ask me. A simple winding will render then useless (Gust of wind and others), and worst, even. A Monk can snatch one and sunder then! It's 10k gp thrown away!

So, really, I understand that you feel that they're just as good as a thrown weapon, but I have already presented some issues that occur with arrows that do not with thrown weapons. The purpose of the game is to have fun, and balance is an important part to fun, at least for most people I know. And, for the WoTC, since we have the rule zero, always DM's call. AND in the part where the rules talk about magic weapon creation they mention that if the rules get in the way, just throw then away!

[Dhavaer]

For the most part, yes, you would be better off enspelling the bow.
However, if you lower the cost of the arrows, particularly to the original price, no one with proficiency with bows wouldn't buy one as soon as they got the money.
If you use this, you will never run out of arrows, and you have a enhancement on the arrows that you cannot have put on a bow.
As to your concerns about arrows, you didn't mention anything that wouldn't invalidate a thrown weapon. Snatch arrows isn't limited to arrows, and neither is Wind Wall. (Gust of Wind has no effect on arrows, as per the spell description. I assume Wind Wall was what you meant.)

[NEO|Phyte]

The beauty of reusable magical ammo is simple: get a bow loaded with various special abilities, and have the arrows use different abilities. Its a bit expensive, but you can get ~+20 equivilent magical output, pre-Epic.
All that doesnt stack is the base +1

[Tomada]

Yes I know neophite, but this comes with a price. Ok, now they are pretty permanent, it can be a problem, but not without sacrifices to other departments. Because, really, by raw, no one ever has spare money they just won't need. If they buy the arrows their armor and other itens will probably suffer.

And, as I sais earlier some of the problems of arrows:
They need a bow (sunder/disarm the bow and the arrows are harmless), they don't threaten squares around you (when you with a bow), not as good in point blank (costs a feat), normally won't apply str to damage (thrown weapons will) and they can be easilly countered (wall of wind, even gust of wind, as house-ruled, since they can knot small creatures, why not arrows? And snatch arrows and another such).

Ok, now, if the seeminless infinite range an arrow can get(see deep wood sniper, far shot, etc etc etc) is the trouble, just limit it to the bows base range and that's it!

[Dhavaer]

I'll grant most of your points, though most of them can and will be overcome by any dedicated archer. Applying strength to damage isn't a huge issue, since you're dealing Constitution damage. You still haven't mentioned any method of countering arrows that won't work on, say, javelins as well.

What exactly are you suggesting with the base range thing? The enchantment only works within 1 range increment?

[Nolfar]

I'll grant most of your points, though most of them can and will be overcome by any dedicated archer. Applying strength to damage isn't a huge issue, since you're dealing Constitution damage. You still haven't mentioned any method of countering arrows that won't work on, say, javelins as well.

What exactly are you suggesting with the base range thing? The enchantment only works within 1 range increment?

Arrow Catching enchantment would help alot. That said, your suggestion about the enchantment working within a limited range incriment actually sounds like a great idea to me. So, let me repost the new versions of the ability and the weapon to see what you guys think now. Oh, adding a fort save (should it be reflex?) to the wounding ability, to try and reduce some of the cheeze, because as cool as it is to me, it does sound a little bit more powerful than I intended.

Oh, and an alternate line for the specific weapon, to be added at your liesure: "Unlike normal arrows, the Ever-Ready Arrow does not gain any abilities of the launching bow."

Everlasting - Ammo with the Everlasting enchantment cannot be destroyed simply in the act of launching it. Sundering, lighting on fire or other destructive means can destroy the ammunition, but the simple act of hitting something (or missing) does not break it, if weilded as a melee weapon, it still suffers breakage on a successful hit. Only breakable ranged ammunition may be given this ability.

Cost: +2 enhancement; to make: CL 9, Make Whole, Craft Magical Arms and Armor

The Ever-Ready Arrow: The +2 Silver Longbow Arrow is an archer's dream. When fired from any bow, it flies true and then returns intact to the quiver. Returning in this manner reopens the inital wound, dealing 1 point of constitution damage (DC 15 fort save to negate). Returning takes a round after being fired and it can only return from the first two range incriments, any further and it does not move after being fired, and thus does not cause Con damage. Moving closer after the returning power would activate does not cause it to return.

Moderate Transmutation; CL 15; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Teleport or Dimention Door, Make Whole, Mordenkien's Sword. Price 8250, exp 648

Increased the price by double at first, this brings it to 1/10 the normal cost for it's enchantment value (assuming the ajusted wounding is still a +2 enchantment) but it's still reasionably low, also note that the price is still for crafting it, not purchasing it, as it's a speciffic weapon and generally considered not under the perview of the average store.

[Dhavaer]

That seems much more reasonable.

[Elurindel]

Also there's the Quiver of Lies from the BoVD

[Dhavaer]

That's a good one. Very flavourful. Nice mechanic, too.

[Jothki]

Also there's the Quiver of Lies from the BoVD

I have no idea what that is, but the name just gave me an idea for a quiver.

It produces infinite arrows, but in normal situations, there is a 25% chance that any arrow pulled from the quiver will be an illusion. In situations where the wielder is stressed, the chance of arrows being illusory increases to 75%.

[Dhavaer]

The Quiver of Lies creates a bolt everytime the owner speaks a lie.