3.5 UMD/UPD: Use Esoteric Device?

[CheshireCatAW]

I vaguely recall that UMD checks do not work with Psionic devices; that you need a Use Psionic Device skill to use those. Aside from the terminology in the original wording of the skill (Magic as opposed to something more neutral), is there a reason for this at all? It seems like just adding an extra skill onto the set for little reason. The reason I bring this up is because, it's been my experience at least, that Rogues are the ones to use UMD most often, and I've always pictured it as them just smacking the object, waving it, speaking jibberish and just trying to activate it blindly. What I fail to see is how this would be different if it was a Psionic device.

I don't think it would unbalance the game at all to merge the two into a Use Esoteric Device skill, but before I'd do it, I'd like to bounce it off the community and ask if you guys can see any potential problems with this.

Thank you for your time.

[Flickerdart]

"Use Device" would do fine as a name, I think. It makes sense fluff-wise, if you're going to fake being proficient with a wand, that might as well span to a dorje.

[Kaiyanwang]

In my campaing I keep the two skill splitted mainly for flavour (psionics is different and the like).

IMHO, if you make your player save some skill point, nothing bad or game breaking.

Skill name: Use Strange Stuff.

[Person_Man]

In my campaigns they're combined. I also combine Spellcraft also includes Psicraft and (and any other random casting system like Incarnum and Binding and whatnot), and Knowledge (Arcane) includes psionics et al as well.

The only good reason to separate them is fluff, IMO.

[Prophaniti]

They're separated by default because by default psionics and magic are different. Skill with one does you no good with the other. If that's the way you keep them in your campaign it makes sense to keep them separate. If not, it doesn't harm anything to combine them.

[CheshireCatAW]

They're separated by default because by default psionics and magic are different. Skill with one does you no good with the other.

This is what I'm getting at though. Here's a guy with no skill with either of them: Why would it make a difference wether its magically or psionically powered? The way both UMD and UPD work seem identical to me, merely separated because of an unfortunate adjective.

[Prophaniti]

I guess that would depend on how you say UMD/UPD actually works. Do ranks in UMD reflect limited knowledge of magical symbols and activation methods? If so, it still wouldn't help much with psionic devices. If you go with something a bit more abstract (like manipulating his life-force or something, I don't know) I could see one skill working for both, even in a setting where they are functionally different.

[DragoonWraith]

Or you could say that while, yes, UMD/UPD does mean having knowledge of activation methods and symbols, a single skill point in a single skill involves studying these for both magical and psionic items, and so covers both.

And then you could do something like "if you have a caster level, you get a +1 when dealing with magic devices, but a -1 when dealing with psionic devices, while if you have a manifester level, you get a +1 with psionic devices but -1 on magic ones", reflecting your inclination towards one over the other. If you have both a caster and a manifester level, the bonuses/penalties cancel out.

Also, I'm a big fan of "Use Esoteric Device", that's a great name for it.

[CheshireCatAW]

In my campaigns they're combined. I also combine Spellcraft also includes Psicraft and (and any other random casting system like Incarnum and Binding and whatnot), and Knowledge (Arcane) includes psionics et al as well.

I was thinking of something along these lines as well, except instead of combining K:Arcana and Psionics and Spell/Psicraft, I was thinking of merging K:Arcana/Spellcraft and K:Psionics/Psicraft. It seems a bit more powerful than your mixture of things since in your example, there's a strong probability of both aspects being used rarely, if ever. Do you foresee a problem with the method I proposed?


I guess that would depend on how you say UMD/UPD actually works. Do ranks in UMD reflect limited knowledge of magical symbols and activation methods? If so, it still wouldn't help much with psionic devices. If you go with something a bit more abstract (like manipulating his life-force or something, I don't know) I could see one skill working for both, even in a setting where they are functionally different.

I guess this is where the complications set in. I don't have my Psionics book on me, but the UMD doesn't mention anything about HOW you activate the magic item. I always figured they just tried shaking things, pressing buttons and saying words until something worked, though your reasoning makes perfect sense in the context of your games as well.


Also, I'm a big fan of "Use Esoteric Device", that's a great name for it.

Thanks. I was trying to think of a name for the skill and I just finished playing Arkham Horror last night; I suppose one universe bled into the other, but it fits so well! It also lends itself to any other type of magic that may come in the future.

[DragoonWraith]

It also has the advantage of having the same abbreviation as the United Earth Directorate.

[Coidzor]

I think Magic-Psionics transparency (the same variant rule where SR and PR apply against spells and psionic powers alike) does the same thing, just having the skills do double duty.

[Chronos]

...and Knowledge (Arcane) includes psionics et al as well. That, I wouldn't do. Psionics is at least as different as divine is from arcane, and there are separate skills for Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion), so it doesn't seem out of place for there to be a separate Knowledge (Psionics), too.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

That, I wouldn't do. Psionics is at least as different as divine is from arcane, and there are separate skills for Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion), so it doesn't seem out of place for there to be a separate Knowledge (Psionics), too.

Keep in mind that Knowledge (Religion) covers undead, the social/economic/etc. impacts of religion, theology, rites and rituals, deific relationships, and such; it's not just Knowledge (Divine Magic). Knowledge (Arcana) covers "ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts" which can just as easily be extended to cover psionic traditions, crystals, and psionic creatures.

[Person_Man]

That, I wouldn't do. Psionics is at least as different as divine is from arcane, and there are separate skills for Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion), so it doesn't seem out of place for there to be a separate Knowledge (Psionics), too.

That's a very reasonable proposition. And from a fluff point of view, I agree with you entirely. But from a mechanical point of view, I think that multiplying the different Skills makes each Skill less valuable, and makes covering any particular role (party face, scout, tracker, combat mobility, sage, etc) that much more difficult to attain. Anyone else remember Intuit Direction from 3.0? It was a good thing that they got rid of it.

Also, if a Skill is basically worthless, no one will take it, and it just creates a roadblock in the rules that the party and the DM have to navigate around. If the Skill isn't being used (or is never used) by the party, then that's one less hook for the DM. It's rare to see PCs with Decipher Script, Speak Language, most of the Knowledge Skills, etc, even though each of them is useful in some limited fashion way. For example, lets assume that no one in my gaming group takes Knowledge (Psionics). If I'm the DM and I want to include a psionic item or enemy important to the plot, then I either have to create an NPC who has Knowledge (Psionics) and railroad him into the PCs for that specific purpose, or the PCs will simply miss out on plot details.

Again, I fully admit that it makes fluff sense to separate them out, and it makes crunch sense as well if you have enough party members willing to cover everything. But if you don't, then consolidation may be a better way.



I was thinking of something along these lines as well, except instead of combining K:Arcana and Psionics and Spell/Psicraft, I was thinking of merging K:Arcana/Spellcraft and K:Psionics/Psicraft. It seems a bit more powerful than your mixture of things since in your example, there's a strong probability of both aspects being used rarely, if ever. Do you foresee a problem with the method I proposed?

I think that method would work as well.

Assuming that you ban custom Skill boosting items and other shenanigans, I think that Skill consolidation is a good thing. How they get consolidated varies widely based on the gaming group I'm with.

[Devils_Advocate]

Magic devices are activated physically and psionic devices are activated mentally. Trying to pick out the right command word is a bit different than trying to pick out the right command thought.

I'd probably just go ahead and combine them, though. But, hey, I'd also just go ahead and make everyone a 0th-level caster in every class for the purpose of activating magic items.