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Fixer
2009-06-22, 01:32 PM
I am working on a game concept and I am wondering what sort of 'cool' maneuvers one can do with a longsword (i.e. one-handed bladed weapon you slash with).

The normal of disarming and parrying I have already come up with. I am wondering if anyone has any other really cool ideas? What sort of things would you like to be able to do with a longsword if you were REALLY skilled at it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-22, 01:37 PM
http://www.bestofasseenontv.com/SlapChop/SlapChop.gif

Seriously, though.

You can grapple someone with it if its in the scabbard. Loop it through their elbow and bend their arm back painfully using the other end of the sword as leverage across their back.

SSGoW
2009-06-22, 01:43 PM
hmmm you could make a class that uses the swords to do call shots with less penalties than normal also these call shots do specific things to the legs they slow or immobalize the target or if you hit the oponents wrist then they are disarmed :3

what system would this be for?

Britter
2009-06-22, 01:45 PM
I know you are looking for one-handed stuff, and some of this is two handed, but these guys are really pretty slick, and worth looking to for inspiration.

The first video is one-handed techniques using a single-edged sword, the second and thrid video's are traditioanl German Longsword, which is probably a D and D greatsword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=channel

ericgrau
2009-06-22, 01:49 PM
http://www.bestofasseenontv.com/SlapChop/SlapChop.gif

It's easy... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA#t=2m59s) :smalltongue:

SSGoW
2009-06-22, 01:51 PM
you could always base it off from kendo and use a katana (kote, men, tsuki, do ) there is even combos of them you could do a kotei men (hitting the wrist then the head) as an advanced ability

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article_nc.php?id=56

here are some terms that says the different attacks (along with other things that you could add into the class like kiai)

Ent
2009-06-22, 01:52 PM
I know you are looking for one-handed stuff, and some of this is two handed, but these guys are really pretty slick, and worth looking to for inspiration.

The first video is one-handed techniques using a single-edged sword, the second and thrid video's are traditioanl German Longsword, which is probably a D and D greatsword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=channel

Thanks for the links. I have to get those in just audio for combat music.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-22, 01:54 PM
Watch what Snake does with the rifle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3sgkAOBgPc&feature=related) at 4:04 onwards.

CQC, baby!

Britter
2009-06-22, 01:55 PM
No problem Ent. I think those are the best videos of European sword I have ever seen. And they have great music too! :smallsmile:

Meat Shield
2009-06-22, 01:59 PM
Don't forget Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon - the sword in that would be roughly equivalent to a longsword I would guess

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 02:13 PM
I am working on a game concept and I am wondering what sort of 'cool' maneuvers one can do with a longsword (i.e. one-handed bladed weapon you slash with).

The normal of disarming and parrying I have already come up with. I am wondering if anyone has any other really cool ideas? What sort of things would you like to be able to do with a longsword if you were REALLY skilled at it.

The presence or absence of a shield and/or buckler modifies this tremendously (or, god forbid, armor!). Is either there?

For example, if you've got a single-handed sword and a round Viking-style shield, I direct you here:
Hurstwic Viking Sword & Shield Techniques (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_sword_technique.htm)
and then here:
Viking Sword & Shield technique 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqdpKHNQqqs)
and here:
Viking Sword & Shield from Hammaborg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWSTx0tZHCU)


If you've got a round punch-buckler, say, and a Crusades-era arming sword, I'd direct you here:
ARMA essay on MS I.33 (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/I33-guards.html)
and then here:
Video detailing I.33 plays (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7eIuKmyvok&feature=related)

And you already have perfectly good sources in this thread for single-handed sword (Messer, specifically) wielded on its own. And there's a plethora of Lichtenauer and Tallhoffer-esque sources, if you need them, on "actual" Longswords (NOT D&D longswords)...here's (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=226EC2797074FC53&search_query=longsword) a YouTube playlist featuring some of them.

Important Conceptual Note:
The thing to keep in mind is that people, as they get better, don't get fancier. Simple is almost always BETTER in a fight, because there's less stuff to go wrong. Therefore, the better fighters get faster and more precise, not more flashy.

Fixer
2009-06-22, 02:14 PM
This assumes no shield or buckler. Just things to do with a sword.

Great examples. Alas I cannot see youtube at work so that will have to wait until I get home (unless someone wishes to describe it).

JellyPooga
2009-06-22, 02:16 PM
Throw it and pin your foe to a pillar! Come on guys, hasn't anyone seen Ladyhawke (why the 'e'?)...Best. Scene. Evah! :smallbiggrin:

Deepblue706
2009-06-22, 02:20 PM
You can always try Mordhau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordhau).

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-22, 02:22 PM
I am working on a game concept and I am wondering what sort of 'cool' maneuvers one can do with a longsword (i.e. one-handed bladed weapon you slash with).

The normal of disarming and parrying I have already come up with. I am wondering if anyone has any other really cool ideas? What sort of things would you like to be able to do with a longsword if you were REALLY skilled at it.

High fantasy uses?

- Deflect arrows
- Deflect spells
- Throw bolts of energy ("Wind Scar!")
- Cut through objects with ease
- Cut through "dimensions"
- Catch yourself from falling
- Use it to "feel" your way through darkness
- Blind opponents with the glint of the sun

Among other things...

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-22, 02:23 PM
Throw it and pin your foe to a pillar! Come on guys, hasn't anyone seen Ladyhawke (why the 'e'?)...Best. Scene. Evah! :smallbiggrin:

*cough* Ripped off from Black Colossus *cough*

Feinting.

Why would you use an arming sword all by itself, though? If your other hand is free, you grab something with it - your hilt, a shield, a dagger, or a cloak, at least.

Knaight
2009-06-22, 02:25 PM
An unrealistic, stylized disarm unlikely to see use in real combat would be to take the sword, put a point through a cross guard (typically something with a saber or rapier type cross guard), and twist it out of your opponents grip. I've done this before when trying to prove a point against somebody who is nowhere near as good, but it is extremely difficult, and leaves you open.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 02:26 PM
High fantasy uses?

- Deflect arrows
- Deflect spells
- Throw bolts of energy ("Wind Scar!")
- Cut through objects with ease
- Cut through "dimensions"
- Catch yourself from falling
- Use it to "feel" your way through darkness
- Blind opponents with the glint of the sun

Among other things...

Oh, actually, this is a VERY good point. What's the fundamental nature of the game? Are you looking for historic accuracy, or would what you're doing not seem out of place in the average RPG?

Other important questions - is armor common? What sort of armor (chain, hard metal, soft metal, plate, leathers)? Is this considered earthlike in most commonly thought-of respects?

Can you more closely define a "longsword"? Perhaps with a representative image? Specific handling characteristics of a sword change markedly with even mild differences - something quite possible with a "sterotypical" Crusader's sword with its cruciform hilt can be impossible with a "stereotypical" Viking's sword with its much smaller crossguard, even though the blades can be very close in size and shape.

As a default, though, I'd look at Messer technique above all else, as it's specifically designed to be used alone. Generally speaking, historically, if you've only got one weapon, you've got both hands on it, or SOMETHING else in the other hand.

valadil
2009-06-22, 02:33 PM
I'm not sure how much of a basis in reality this has (my only experience is with fencing so I don't have a huge breadth of knowledge), but several fantasy books I've read describe ways to overpower someone else's sword to push it out of the way as a set up for the next attack or simply to prevent them from attacking. If you use a system like GURPs or something with stances I imagine this would unready the sword or break a stance.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 02:33 PM
Actually, let me hit the reason why knowing whether armor is there is so important. Armor is HARD to defeat. I'm going to reference the most biased source in favor of weapon performance I can think of: Deadliest Warrior.

In their Viking v Samurai episode, the samurai side tried to cut through reasonably representative chainmail (flattened and riveted links). They had BOTH hands on the weapon and had literally perfect conditions in which to make their cut.

They failed to penetrate it. Really, they failed to do much at all.

Now, subtract some of the power from that blow because you've only got one hand on the weapon. It's not going to do much better, and probably worse. Now, I'm aware that an arming sword (which is what you're really describing) has more impact than a primarily slicing weapon like the katana, but the point stands. With armor in play, a lot of options disappear (mainly slices and draw-cuts and false-edge blows).

Guancyto
2009-06-22, 02:38 PM
Yeah. There's a reason why knights knew how to wrestle and how to use a knife.

Armor would open a couple of other options, though, if I remember right. Half-handing a longsword (that is, holding the blade kind of like a staff) is viable if you have good enough gauntlets, for instance.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 02:42 PM
I'm not sure how much of a basis in reality this has (my only experience is with fencing so I don't have a huge breadth of knowledge), but several fantasy books I've read describe ways to overpower someone else's sword to push it out of the way as a set up for the next attack or simply to prevent them from attacking. If you use a system like GURPs or something with stances I imagine this would unready the sword or break a stance.

This is true - it's called binding or "winding at sword" (though it gets a bunch of poncy French/Italian names later on once rapiers come into vogue - pris de fer, or Attacks on the Iron").

The simple way to describe it is not at all simple. When you're in continuous contact with the other guy's sword, you make a quick assessment of whether he's strong (ie, pushing back against you) or weak (not exerting force behind the sword - like he's pulling it back to recover his blade) at the sword.

If he's strong at the sword, counter with being weak. His power will push the sword forward suddenly as you stop resisting (like a tug-of-war team suddenly letting go of the rope) and you simply guide his blade past you, do a quick moulinet, and bring the sword down on him while he recovers from the sudden motion.

If he's weak at the sword, counter by being strong. Push through his guard or move his sword in such a way that you can quickly snap a reverse to the other side of him while he recovers his sword from where you moved it to.

Sounds simple, right? Well, it is...until you have a live opponent while simultaneously trying to counter YOUR strength at the sword, and both of you are, by necessity, in the "near" distance, where you can both land a hit without taking a step. In the "near" distance, you're in great peril, because it's almost impossible to react in time to avoid a blow...so you're playing mind games with your opponent, trying to get him to commit to being hard or soft at the sword, he's trying to do the same to you, and if EITHER of you gets the sword free and into a quick thrust or stroke, the other guy's dead almost before he knows it.

Deepblue706
2009-06-22, 02:42 PM
@ Geesi: Half-swording was also necessary to penetrate armor, I believe. Because, if you just smacked full plate with the length of your blade, you'd damage the blade.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-22, 02:44 PM
pris de fer, or Attacks on the Iron
Sounds pretty anime to me. Did they get it out of ToB?

woodenbandman
2009-06-22, 02:44 PM
The reason that you'd use one sword with nothing else is so that you could disarm your opponent by getting him to overreach. If your opponent attacks at you, you could come in and grab his arm while stabbing him with your sword.

For fencing anyway, not really sure about warfare.

valadil
2009-06-22, 02:44 PM
Sounds simple, right? Well, it is...until you have a live opponent while simultaneously trying to counter YOU'RE strength at the sword, and both of you are, by necessity, in the "near" distance, where you can both land a hit without taking a step. In the "near" distance, you're in great peril, because it's almost impossible to react in time to avoid a blow...so you're playing mind games with your opponent, trying to get him to commit to being hard or soft at the sword, he's trying to do the same to you, and if EITHER of you gets the sword free and into a quick thrust or stroke, the other guy's dead almost before he knows it.

That sounds awesome but way too complex to work in a sane RPG. How'd you get so knowledgble about this stuff anyway?

J.Gellert
2009-06-22, 02:45 PM
You can find gameplay videos from The Witcher on YouTube - it's an impressive combat style.

Otherwise... Jedi?

Also, these are cool videos Britter, thanks for the links :smallsmile:

Dode
2009-06-22, 02:48 PM
Actually, let me hit the reason why knowing whether armor is there is so important. Armor is HARD to defeat. I'm going to reference the most biased source in favor of weapon performance I can think of: Deadliest Warrior.

In their Viking v Samurai episode, the samurai side tried to cut through reasonably representative chainmail (flattened and riveted links). They had BOTH hands on the weapon and had literally perfect conditions in which to make their cut.

They failed to penetrate it. Really, they failed to do much at all.
I liked how the samurai won anyway in that episode.
I guess what I'm saying is Deadliest Warrior doesn't meet the scientific standards I expect from SPIKE TV.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-22, 02:50 PM
I liked how the samurai won anyway in that episode.
I guess what I'm saying is Deadliest Warrior doesn't meet the scientific standards I expect from SPIKE TV.

...

Standards and Spike? :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2009-06-22, 02:51 PM
@ Geesi: Half-swording was also necessary to penetrate armor, I believe. Because, if you just smacked full plate with the length of your blade, you'd damage the blade.
Which was one reason why, what with the near perfection of full plate against swords, maces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)) became quite popular as weapons, even among the wealthy, in the late Middle Ages.

Deepblue706
2009-06-22, 02:54 PM
Which was one reason why, what with the near perfection of full plate against swords, maces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)) became quite popular as weapons, even among the wealthy, in the late Middle Ages.

Yet sadly D&D Maces totally suck.

Also, why do Picks suck? I don't get that.

Also, shouldn't a Warhammer also deal Piercing damage, what with the spike generally kept on the other end?

And...and...and...

Eldariel
2009-06-22, 02:58 PM
The obvious advantages of using only a single weapon:
-Flexibility - switching stance and posture is much easier (and you have a much greater variety available) when you only have one (comparatively) light moving object.
-Reach - you can do a lot of different lunges wielding only one weapon where the other weapon or shield would intervene or cut your range shorter.
-Side stance - to effectively utilize both hands, you'll have to use a frontal stance. You'll be much narrower a target when only using one hand.


EDIT: For The Witcher, see for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd2Cd0LDV18&feature=fvw - Note, it's of course not representative of any real style (what with the main character being a mutant human with enhanced speed, reflexes and such), but looks cool.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 03:05 PM
OK - one more "fun" trick with a sword, and I'll stop hijacking the thread.

Look at your foe's hands. You hate them. They make rude gestures and allow him to hold the weapon which he's currently swinging at your head. Let's remove them. Just for kicks, let's do it in a really sadistic way. Good thing he's not wearing armor or gloves, though, otherwise this wouldn't work nearly so well (if at all).

For starters, begin in a low guard, perhaps Alber, the Fool's Guard.
http://mouseandboar.com/vier_leger_class_notes_files/image004.jpg
(On the right).

This is an invitation to attack your head. Most people will take it, since that'll end the fight right quick and said people can get back to oppressing and/or raping the peasantry with a minimum of fuss.

When he does so, take a step forward towards your foe, as his sword begins it's downward swing. Bob a bit to lower your center of gravity as you do so, and punch you own sword, with the tip facing left and the strong edge upward, straight up into his descending wrists. Bring your left arm up and UNDER your own sword and wrap it around his arms, pulling his arm down into the blade of your sword. Taking a step with your right foot around in a circle behind your right foot, rotate your sword around his wrists in a circle. Done with sufficient force, this will cut his wrists to the bone. When he drops his sword (which he WILL, since you've severed the parts necessary to hold onto the weapon) take your left hand, grab the tips of as many of his fingers as you can at about the second knuckle, and pull sharply.

This techinique is called "de-gloving". I trust you can figure out why on your own. :smallbiggrin:

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 03:08 PM
That sounds awesome but way too complex to work in a sane RPG. How'd you get so knowledgble about this stuff anyway?

I choreograph fights for film and stage for a living(Society of American Fight Directors), along with being a jouster, Western Martial Artist (ex-ARMA member, ex-SCA member for what THAT'S worth), and utility stuntman with a specialzation in armored combat.

I play with swords and guns and people pay me money for it. It's my JOB to know this stuff. I only wish it was a regular enough paycheck to live on. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Also, I wish it paid enough for me to get a new damn keyboard. JESUS I can't type well on this thing... :smallfurious:

TheThan
2009-06-22, 03:15 PM
I’m working on a homebrewed system that uses powers similar to 4E.

Each weapon has different “weapon properties”. Each weapon gives a bonus and an additional effect based on its properties to certain powers.

Here’s an example power;

Disarming attack
Showing your combat skills, you deftly remove your enemy’s weapon.
Cost: 2
Type: melee attack
Weapon property: skillful
Target: one enemy
Damage: none
Effect: if your attack succeeds, you force your enemy to drop his weapon.
Scale: none
Special feature: if you are wielding a skillful weapon, you may make a normal melee attack immediately afterwards.


In the example above if I was wielding a weapon with the skillful property, I’d get a +2 to my attack roll, and gain the special feature, in this case, I would be able to strike at my enemy immediately after I disarm him (assuming my attack is successful).

The cool thing is that you can always use the power(s) as long as you can afford the cost (think psionic power points here), regardless if your using a weapon of the appropriate property(ies), you just don’t get the special feature or the +2 bonus to the attack.

So the system wants you to use the right weapon for the right power, yet it doesn’t penalize you for not using the appropriate weapon for what you want to do. The whole idea is to make melee combat fun and dynamic again.

Naturally different classes are going to provide different advantages, for instance fighters gain more points to spend on powers and more powers than everyone else. While a barbarian has other advantages (haven’t wrote him out yet).

Along with melee combat powers, I have ranged combat powers, defensive powers and group oriented powers (shield walls, skirmisher formations, volley fire for archers etc.) Right now I have about 30 powers stated out (about half of which are melee powers). The whole idea came up when I realized I don’t particularly like the “at will/encounter/daily” system 4E uses, but I still liked the idea.


Why am I babbling on about this? Because you asked for a bunch of cool ideas, and this is a cool idea.


Oh and swordguy, you have the coolest job in the world.

sombrastewart
2009-06-22, 03:23 PM
For whatever it's worth, I'll throw out an idea that might come better with game mechanics.

Using what's referred to as, I believe, a filip, strike with the flat of the blade on the side of the head to stun the opponent. I'm not as versed in swordplay as I am other forms of martial arts, but it seems that such a maneuver might be easier to translate into a game mechanic; in 3.5, it might be for some sort of penalties to their attacks or in 4e, to initiate the dazed condition.

Eldariel
2009-06-22, 03:26 PM
Oh, a better Witcher Combat Clip here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3ApCnZGtH4). Don't know if anyone cares, but figured I'd post it now that I dug it up.

Yora
2009-06-22, 03:42 PM
the second and thrid video's are traditioanl German Longsword, which is probably a D and D greatsword.
It is. Anything bigger would probably be quite silly.

Britter
2009-06-22, 03:45 PM
I simply wanted to make a distinction between a longsword as a two-handed real world weapon, and a longsword, as a 1 handed D and D weapon. I believe, IRL, that there are larger swords then the German Longsword, however I am ignorant of the methods by which such a weapon would be used.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 03:49 PM
It is. Anything bigger would probably be quite silly.

Not at all. The swords in the clips are probably weighing in at 4-6lbs, and with about a 44-50" overall length.

Greatswords and other true-2-handers (Zweihanders, etc) in the "historic" sense would go up to 60+ (ish) inches in length and 5-8lbs. Here's an adverstisment for an "OK" one: Cold Steel Greatsword (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG6sP3aezco)

Tyrmatt
2009-06-22, 04:16 PM
I hope this will be potentially helpful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_swordsmanship) as it's a combat style built around the Longsword itself.

I love the use of the Fool's Guard as well. It only works once on an opponent but of course, in a duel to the death, it only has to work once :smallamused:

As mentioned in the article, longswords leave your offhand free to wield a small knife if you want to forsake the sword and board approach which if you can effectively move in and press down on your opponents blade with your sword, gives you a split second to stick a dagger in his side. The pain will likely make him loosen his grip and you're free to slit his throat as you press your attack with your now free offhand aiding your push. For maximum efficiency, use a barbed dagger and twist. Even if he throws you off then, he's got about 45 seconds before he begins to exsanguinate to the point of being useless. Also if he attempts to run, flee or even keep fighting, every single movement tears the wound open further.

AslanCross
2009-06-22, 04:35 PM
It is. Anything bigger would probably be quite silly.

What Swordguy said. The true greatswords of history were indeed said to be ponderous, but that's because the guys who made such comments were used to the smallsword.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

TheThan
2009-06-22, 04:43 PM
What Swordguy said. The true greatswords of history were indeed said to be ponderous, but that's because the guys who made such comments were used to the smallsword.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

And their decidedly more masculine than those pansy rapiers and small swords.

Jayabalard
2009-06-22, 04:43 PM
you could always base it off from kendo and use a katanaThat gives the benefit of being able to cut a tank in half with your sword.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 04:54 PM
That gives the benefit of being able to cut a tank in half with your sword.

You were asking for it, really...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/WnX-Hokaru/Katana-1.jpg

tribble
2009-06-22, 04:55 PM
As mentioned in the article, longswords leave your offhand free to wield a small knife if you want to forsake the sword and board approach which if you can effectively move in and press down on your opponents blade with your sword, gives you a split second to stick a dagger in his side.

I think that's a mistake, wikipedia says that actual longswords were two-handed.

Mr.Moron
2009-06-22, 04:56 PM
You were asking for it, really...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/WnX-Hokaru/Katana-1.jpg

Hey, if the other guy can summon dragons my sword better damn well do something awesome. Forget tanks, I wanna cleave through mountains.

quick_comment
2009-06-22, 04:58 PM
Bah, real swordsmen use oars.

Swordguy
2009-06-22, 05:00 PM
I think that's a mistake, wikipedia says that actual longswords were two-handed.

Well, that - among other questions - is what we're waiting on Fixer to get back to the thread to, ah, fix.

Historical Longswords are 2-handed weapons (except when they aren't; Bastard Swords technically fall into their category in most organizational schemes).

D&D longswords are 1-handed weapons. The original post said 1-handed Longsword. Thus, we await clarification with bated and minty-flavored breath.


EDIT:

Bah, real swordsmen use oars.

*snerk*

Hat-Trick
2009-06-22, 06:00 PM
If he can kill you with a gallery oar, you don't want to see him with a real sword.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-22, 06:37 PM
The most experiance I have with fighting with a sword is when all of my younger siblings attack me with sticks :smallsigh::smalltongue:

A move I particularly like, which doesnt work that often, is a type of disarm. You stick your sword out, fencing style, and if they try to knock it out of the way, slightly pull your sword back, then continuing their momentum from the other side. If you are stronger than them, you can a) send their sword flying, b) send them totally off balance, or c) hit them with their own sword.


That wasnt a very accurate way to describe it, but...I gave it my best.

Swordguy
2009-06-23, 10:45 AM
Anything new, Fixer

Vagnarok
2009-06-23, 11:31 AM
Bah, real swordsmen use oars.

If he can kill you with a gallery oar, you don't want to see him with a real sword.

He was (I believe) referring to Miyamoto Musashi, the legendary Japanese swordmaster. He supposedly defeated Sasaki Kojiro, his greatest rival, in a duel using a sword that he carved from an oar while Kojiro used his steel one.

Britter
2009-06-23, 11:45 AM
A lot of Japanese swordsman would fight duels using wooden swords, in order to minimize the opportunities to damage their real swords. You wanted to minimize damage to the edge of your blade, because the only way to repair serious edge damage was to have the sword polished again. After a certain amount of polishing, a katana loses a lot of it's structure and becomes more susceptible to breaking or bending when it impacts a target.

It is worth noting that wooden training swords were not used because they were less lethal. It is completely possible to kill a man with a white oak bokken, not to mention that broken bones and crushed joints would actually have been crippling injuries, due to the state of medicine in medevial Japan. Even if you survived such a wound, it was very likely that you would never be the same again.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-06-23, 02:09 PM
Hey, if the other guy can summon dragons my sword better damn well do something awesome. Forget tanks, I wanna cleave through mountains.A mountain might stretch belief. But how about a ship? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koMx3DczD4U)
Katanas: They are just that good.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 02:54 PM
Katana are actually worse than Western style swords due to the poor quality materials found in Japan and less versatile. A longsword hilt is much better, allowing for better disarms and guarding capacity.

Britter
2009-06-23, 03:03 PM
I wouldn't say they are worse, or better. Just different.

Katana are used differently then western style blades, because of the cultural and environmental needs of the Japanese versus the cultural and environmental needs of the various European peoples. It is really not possible to declare one type of sword to be superior to another. It all depends on what the sword was designed to do.

talus21
2009-06-23, 03:04 PM
Katana are actually worse than Western style swords due to the poor quality materials found in Japan and less versatile. A longsword hilt is much better, allowing for better disarms and guarding capacity.

Oh buddy. You best cast flame resitance. :smalltongue:

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 03:10 PM
That brings in the wielder. A trained Samurai with a rusted, unsharpened katana is better than a Commoner with the best longsword ever made and cared for (or SHOULD be) because the Samurai is trained to use his properly, even though it's not truly combat worthy.

Britter
2009-06-23, 03:26 PM
What I am refering too is the fact that weapons of war evolve from the circumstances of war. As a simple example, the samurai never came up with an armor the is equivalent to plate armor, and so they never needed to develop weapons technology to defeat such an armor.

Without understanding the cultural context in which a weapon was used, it is impossible to compare it to another weapon, because they might have been designed for very different things.

Oh, sure, individual skill would of course matter in a hypothetical duel. Not going to disagree with you there. I am simply saying that comparing weapons from cultures that never actually met on the field of battle and declaring one type is quantitatively better then another is a futile excersise at best.

For example, if swordsmen using the circular guard of the katana were finding that they were regularly getting defeated and subsequently killed by people using the cross-style guard of a longsword (which is a very heavyhanded simplification of the worst sort, since there were many different styles of European sword gaurd) then they would either 1)have to develop methods to counter the superior sword guard or 2) adapt the technology to their existing methods.

What differentiates Euope, historically, from Japan, is that Japan had a 400 year period in which they didn't fight anyone except themselves, and they only had minimal evolution in the tools with which they fought. Meanwhile, in Europe, there were constant wars between different armies with differing types of weaponry and armor, leading to ever evolving martial tactics, techniques, and equipment. As the Europeans evolved, the Japanese essentially stood still. Heck, they never even developed firearms technology beyond what they bought from the Portugese.

Anyone who thinks that the Japanese had some sort of military superiority inherent in their culture just needs to be reminded that immedaitely after the Meji Revolution in the mid-1800's, the fledgling nation that became modern Japan called upon the Prussians and the British to help them to train the new Japanese Army and Navy, respectivly. Up until that point, there had not been any signifigant change in how the Japanese fought for over 300 years.

I am of course greatly simplifying this entire issue, but hopology is not my area of expertise.

Sorry to be derailing the thread. Apologies for my spelling errors. :smallredface:

Eurantien
2009-06-23, 04:01 PM
Yeah. There's a reason why knights knew how to wrestle and how to use a knife.

Armor would open a couple of other options, though, if I remember right. Half-handing a longsword (that is, holding the blade kind of like a staff) is viable if you have good enough gauntlets, for instance.

Gauntlets make very little difference. A bit of leather across your palm isn't going to protect you. But a cut hand is much better than, say, a cut head.

Shademan
2009-06-23, 04:04 PM
anybody say throw it?
yeah I know... But bear with me, it CAN be done!
... with somewhat success...

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 04:22 PM
There are feats for throwing. I personally like the image of a swordsman hurling his greatsword at his opponent, then closing with Sword and Shield. Unfortunately, it isn't realistic and Dnd supports THF over SnB.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-23, 04:23 PM
There are feats for throwing. I personally like the image of a swordsman hurling his greatsword at his opponent, then closing with Sword and Shield. Unfortunately, it isn't realistic and Dnd supports THF over SnB.

Dungeoncrasher. Use your shield to bullrush enemies into walls for fun and profit.

Shademan
2009-06-23, 04:29 PM
actually the ninjas did have some sword-throwing techniques. but they were only for escapes, to throw at your pursuer and then hide when he went "OH SHII-" and jumped away.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 04:41 PM
That's the Shuriken Tactic.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-23, 05:28 PM
Gauntlets make very little difference. A bit of leather across your palm isn't going to protect you. But a cut hand is much better than, say, a cut head.

We actually just covered this in the real-world weapons & armor thread. Half-swording was just fine without hand protection; Talhoffer etc. depict it done without any armor or gloves.


anybody say throw it?
yeah I know... But bear with me, it CAN be done!
... with somewhat success...

It's a legitimate tactic, depicted in at least one fechtbuch that I know of (Fiore Dei Liberi, I think?). IIRC, it was banned in duels and the like.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 06:12 PM
No Kicking, biting, low blows, or thrown swords. Got it?

TheThan
2009-06-23, 06:13 PM
No Kicking, biting, low blows, or thrown swords. Got it?

Keep it clean and come out fighting!

Yora
2009-06-23, 06:24 PM
It's a legitimate tactic, depicted in at least one fechtbuch that I know of (Fiore Dei Liberi, I think?). IIRC, it was banned in duels and the like.
As my professors in religious history always say: "If it was banned, that means people did it!" :smallbiggrin:

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 06:45 PM
That's the mentality of warning labels. Yes, someone actually tried to stop a chainsaw with their hand.

mikeejimbo
2009-06-23, 07:05 PM
I choreograph fights for film and stage for a living(Society of American Fight Directors), along with being a jouster, Western Martial Artist (ex-ARMA member, ex-SCA member for what THAT'S worth), and utility stuntman with a specialzation in armored combat.

I play with swords and guns and people pay me money for it. It's my JOB to know this stuff. I only wish it was a regular enough paycheck to live on. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Also, I wish it paid enough for me to get a new damn keyboard. JESUS I can't type well on this thing... :smallfurious:

And you should see what he does to *catgirls*

My favorite sword maneuver is to drop it, and then run away.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-23, 07:18 PM
Very effective against heavily armored opponents, I hear.

Shademan
2009-06-24, 02:30 AM
you should also add some more bonuses to a shield. at this point in D&D it is pretty much better to dual-wield.

Eurantien
2009-06-24, 04:55 AM
you should also add some more bonuses to a shield. at this point in D&D it is pretty much better to dual-wield.

This is one of those things that was dealt with in 4e, possibly at the expense of the original ability. Dual-wielding now only confers a small attack bonus and requires a feat to use. Which is a shame really. But, edition war aside, tricks like cleaving someone in twain are always cool.

Dixieboy
2009-06-24, 07:08 AM
Important Conceptual Note:
The thing to keep in mind is that people, as they get better, don't get fancier. Simple is almost always BETTER in a fight, because there's less stuff to go wrong. Therefore, the better fighters get faster and more precise, not more flashy.
However there is nothing stopping a good swordsman from being flashy if he really wanted :smallredface: (Except for a potential opponent off course)

John Campbell
2009-06-24, 12:42 PM
However there is nothing stopping a good swordsman from being flashy if he really wanted :smallredface: (Except for a potential opponent off course)

Yeah, those cursèd opponents, always ruining a good flashy showing off with their "stabbing" and "cutting".

Triaxx
2009-06-24, 01:21 PM
Discussion on German Longswords: Probably what D&D calls a bastard sword.

What can you do with Longswords: Attack out of range of shorter weapons. Bleed the opponent with penetrating attacks, or with a long slash to an unprotected area. Pierce chainmail, but not plate. Carry a shield or defensive weapon in the other hand. Work around a heavy shield.

Eurantien
2009-06-24, 01:54 PM
Discussion on German Longswords: Probably what D&D calls a bastard sword.

What can you do with Longswords: Attack out of range of shorter weapons. Bleed the opponent with penetrating attacks, or with a long slash to an unprotected area. Pierce chainmail, but not plate. Carry a shield or defensive weapon in the other hand. Work around a heavy shield.

Um, not an expert, but I DO know you CAN penetrate plate (sorta), but only by striking at the gaps, namely the throat, and then only by thrusting. Also, German longswords can vary from the DnD longsword to the bastard sword, mostly dependant on the size of the hilt and length of the blade. This I did look into.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-24, 02:52 PM
Um, not an expert, but I DO know you CAN penetrate plate (sorta), but only by striking at the gaps, namely the throat, and then only by thrusting. Also, German longswords can vary from the DnD longsword to the bastard sword, mostly dependant on the size of the hilt and length of the blade. This I did look into.

I don't know what sort of plate you're thinking of, but between bevors, gorgets, and pauldrons, the throat/neck is not really a gap. Diagram. (http://www.houseshadowwolf.com/DiagramGothicArmour1germanischesa.jpg)

And you don't penetrate the plates, which is the point. You can penetrate the joints and joins, where you'll probably meet mail or fabric.

And I think Triaxx's point is that "longsword" actually refers to a weapon such as the one depicter in Talhoffer's fechtbuch: a military/knightly sword used primarily in two hands (it can be used one-handed, obviously, but the point is that the techniques make use of both of your hands, rather than the sword and a shield). In D&D, that's sort of a bastard sword (although you can use the D&D longsword that way, too; all the EWP gets you in 3.X is +1 average damage). The D&D longsword - i.e. "Medium one-handed martial sword" is an arming sword (or a viking sword, or any of many other one-handed swords).

Deepblue706
2009-06-24, 03:01 PM
Yeah, I have to agree the Bastard Sword seems to be more like a Longsword, whereas a Longsword seems like more of an Arming Sword. While on the note of wrongly designating swords, isn't the Falchion more of a cleaver than "essentially a big scimitar"?

The Bastard Sword can be pretty badass, though. You just have to take Exotic Weapon Master (get twice your STR mod while two-handing instead of 1.5x, and it outpaces a Greatsword's damage with enough STR (20 I believe)).

Yora
2009-06-24, 03:36 PM
I think the bastard sword is what it says in the discription: A one-handed sword that is so big, that it's too heavy to use unless you had specialized tranining.

There are swords called One-and-a-half-hander, but those were two-handed swords on which the second hand had only a lighter grip than on larger two-handed swords. Everyone I ever talked to said it's impossible to fight with them using only one hand. You had to use them with one and a half-hand, not with either one or two.

Not completely sure, but I think the Langschwert was close to the largest type of sword that was ever used in real combat. The greatsword is listed as close to 4kg, while most real two-handed swords were about half that weight.
There are bigger swords, but they were only for showing off. Like desert eagles. ^^

Swordguy
2009-06-24, 03:48 PM
I think the bastard sword is what it says in the discription: A one-handed sword that is so big, that it's too heavy to use unless you had specialized tranining.

Not completely sure, but I think the Langschwert was close to the largest type of sword that was ever used in real combat. There are bigger swords, but they were only for showing off. Like desert eagles. ^^

The larger "true" 2-handers were certainly used for combat, both on the battlefield and in judicial duels. Scottish Claymores, for example "technically" fall into the category of true 2-hander. And the classic "zweihander" (60+ inch long blade, long crossguard and parrying flukes above a leather-wrapped ricasso) like this one:
http://www.premiumknives.com/knifefiles/COLD_STEEL_Knives/Cold_Steel_Knives_88WGS.jpg

was the signature weapon of the German Landsknechts from about the 14th century through the 16th. Soldiers trained in the use of this weapon are known as Doppelsöldner (Double Soldiers) because they earned double pay, and often served as guards for artillery batteries, flags, or were theoretically used as a spearhead to break through a pike line (though the idea of chopping the heads off of pikes is simply ludicrous when you se the thickness of a pike and the metal banding often running down the shaft).

Spiryt
2009-06-24, 03:52 PM
I think the bastard sword is what it says in the discription: A one-handed sword that is so big, that it's too heavy to use unless you had specialized tranining.

Nope. It's a longsword that can be easily used in one hand. Or rather easier than other longswords - although generally genesis of "longsword" is sword that was getting bigger so it could be used one handed from horse for broad powerful sweeps, or two handed at feet.

AFAIK some longswords, particulary later, exceled in being "universal" - you could manuever with them pretty easily one handed too.

D&D descriptions aren't really good at anything.


Not completely sure, but I think the Langschwert was close to the largest type of sword that was ever used in real combat. There are bigger swords, but they were only for showing off. Like desert eagles. ^^

The question is what you mean by "Langschwert"? If just longswords then no.

There were plenty of swords (mainly in XVI century) that were close to 6 feet in lenght and were definetly for fighting.


I don't know what sort of plate you're thinking of, but between bevors, gorgets, and pauldrons, the throat/neck is not really a gap. Diagram.

You keep showing one specific type of plate. And there were many design of such armor.
Sallet and gorget like on picture indeed don't leave any "neck gap" but many other designs did.
Of course if armor was decent this never was very "gaping" hole.

Usually covered by maille. The guy here. (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13319&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=319)

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-24, 03:54 PM
I think the bastard sword is what it says in the discription: A one-handed sword that is so big, that it's too heavy to use unless you had specialized tranining.

That's nonsense, though. Using a longsword requires no more "special" training than using an arming sword. They both have their own moves, but neither is more "special."


Not completely sure, but I think the Langschwert was close to the largest type of sword that was ever used in real combat. There are bigger swords, but they were only for showing off. Like desert eagles. ^^

No, the actual greatswords (doppelhanders) were longer and heavier, used in a very different style (like a spear with a cutting edge and a REALLY short haft, basically), and mainly used in war (doppelsoldners were at the front of the charge and beat down or sheared spears and pikes) and in duels.


Deepblue: Yeah, "falchion" basically means "single-edged crude sword." I think there were more specifically defined falchions, too, but I don't think they were two-handed. The D&D falchion is probably a kriegsmesser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmesser).

Attaching importance to the names of D&D weapons is not useful, though. "Scimitar" just means "one-handed single-edged slashing sword" (saber, falchion, grosses messer, scramasax, etc.). "Longsword" just means "one-handed double-edged sword" (arming sword, viking sword, spatha, sidesword, katana), "greatsword" means "two-handed sword" (nodachi, doppelhander), "rapier" means "one-handed flimsy thrusting sword" (rapier, sidesword, smallsword...), and so on.

Spiryt
2009-06-24, 04:02 PM
Deepblue: Yeah, "falchion" basically means "single-edged crude sword."


I don't really see why falchions should be crude. They're depicted in the hand of saints and knights since about XII century I think/

Just different wepon, not crude. Later messers and similar weapons were kinda "peasantish" weapons, but not falchions. They quickly became popular among nobles too, though.


"Longsword" just means "one-handed double-edged sword" (arming sword, viking sword, spatha, sidesword, katana)

Is katana one handed or double edged? :smalltongue: :smallwink:

EDIT: Off too "Real word - weapons" with this ?

Swordguy
2009-06-24, 04:13 PM
Actually, I'll clear up the debate now. Here's what the swords look like, by category, using representative and varied (when possible) examples:

EXTREMELY Image heavy!

Arming Swords:
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/reeve/smreeve.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/norman/smnorman.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/sovereign/smsovereign.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/maestro/I33/I33-art.jpg

Bastard Swords:
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/castellan/smcastellan.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/mercenary/smmercenary.jpg

Longswords (aka War Swords, Swords of War):http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/duke/smduke.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/ringeck/sm-ng-ringeck.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/munich/munich-xviiia.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/viceroy/smviceroy.jpg
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/maestro/meyer/meyer.jpg

True Two-handed Swords (aka Zweihander, aka Greatsword):
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/swords-albion-mark-nextgen.htm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Zweihaender_im_historischen_Museum_Basel.JPG

Falchion:
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/vassal/smVassal.jpg

Messer:
http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/soldat/smsoldat.jpg

All swords courtesy of Albion Swords - except the last True-2hander image, which is from the Basel Historical Museum.

How this really ought to break down from real life to game is something along these lines. The choice to call the arming sword a "longsword" in D&D has got to be one of the most unfortunately confusing events in hopological history.

Real term=Approximate D&D Term
Arming Sword=Longsword
Bastard Sword=Bastard Sword
Longsword=Greatsword
Zweihander=Fullblade
Falchion/Messer=Falchion

EDIT: Heck, I'm tempted to ask this post to get stickied at the top of every RW Weapons/Armor thread from now on. :smallsigh:

ImmortalAer
2009-06-24, 04:13 PM
All I'm getting is red X's...

Matthew
2009-06-24, 04:15 PM
I can see it fine.

Yora
2009-06-24, 04:17 PM
Okay, some numbers I googled. "Seen it on the internets", so correct me if these are garbage:

Arming Sword: 90 cm totsl length, 75cm blade length, about 1 kg.
Longsword: 120 cm total length, 90 cm blade length, about 1,5 kg.
One and a half: 130 cm total length, 100 cm blade length, up to 2 kg.
Claymore: 140 cm total length, 110 cm blade length, about 2.5 kg.
Zweihänder: up to 189 cm total length, about 2,5 kg.

Seems I seriously overestimated the size of longswords, my mistake.
And so yeah, the D&D-Bastardsword is probably close to a Longsword. But I don't think you can wield them with one hand.

Spiryt
2009-06-24, 04:19 PM
Nice summary.



One and a half: 130 cm total length, 100 cm blade length, up to 2 kg.


"One and half " is weird term invented in XIX century as far as I know, and is not very good for anything. But this is probably just picking, as many people use it without problem.

Anyway, "true" bastard sword would be smaller than "your average" longsword, if anything. Not bigger.
Arma article (http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm)

Sword of about 130 cm would be called "Grete Sword" and would be probably Oakeshott type XIIIa sword from XIV century.

See here (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxiii.html). Basically - longswords but definetly for two handed purpose.

Worira
2009-06-24, 04:32 PM
Bah, real swordsmen use oars.

that is not even a sword (http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=40)

Spiryt
2009-06-24, 04:35 PM
And so yeah, the D&D-Bastardsword is probably close to a Longsword. But I don't think you can wield them with one hand.

And just for supplement.

Reviev (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_alb_cast.html) of an Albion sword that Swordguy used as his example of bastard - the Castellan.


This sword is a hand and a half sword in the truest sense of the term. It literally handles just as easily with one or two hands on the grip.

As you can see, it's small (107cm, 1,30 kg) for longsword, and yet bigger than 99% of one handers.

Yora
2009-06-24, 04:36 PM
Watch the movie. :smallbiggrin:

While browsing for images, I came upon this beauty, I just had to share here. ^^
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc233/Fungaltulip/Greatsword_Green.jpg?t=1245878905

Spiryt
2009-06-24, 04:53 PM
Watch the movie. :smallbiggrin:

While browsing for images, I came upon this beauty, I just had to share here. ^^
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc233/Fungaltulip/Greatsword_Green.jpg?t=1245878905

Looks like Transitional fossil between mentioned sword and oar. :smalltongue:

Shademan
2009-06-24, 05:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfes9jAmNNI
nuff said