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Jergmo
2009-06-22, 04:07 PM
I've revised the statistics of various races in my campaign (it's still a work in progress) and I'd like to know what everyone thinks of what I have so far. Thus far I haven't statted out halfbreeds; they're a little more ambiguous. I got rid of halflings as I felt they served no purpose than to be a reference to Tolkien's hobbits, and the archetypes of elves and gnomes are there to break the pattern of creating new subraces just because there are minute differences. Seriously, eight elven races in the core info?

Humans (Not sure if they need to be pumped up a teeny bit more)
Medium: As medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Human base land speed is 30 feet.
Skill Mastery: Humans receive a +2 racial bonus in any two skills of their choice. These skills are considered class skills.
1 extra feat at 1st level.
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Favored Class: Any

Dwarves
+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha (trying to figure out a way to be rid of their Cha pen)
Medium: As medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarfcan use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped while standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground.
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Favored Class: Cleric or Druid

Elves
Archetypes (Inquisitive, Spiritual, Sensual)
+2 Dex, (+2 Int, +2 Wis, or +2 Cha)
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 to Listen, Search, and Spot.
+2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Favored class: Wizard, Ranger, or Sorcerer

My elves aren't frail, and are larger. Same height and weight as half-elves.

Gnomes
Archetypes (Inquisitive, Spiritual*, Sensual)
-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, (+2 Int, +2 Wis, or +2 Cha)
Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but uses smaller weapons than humans use, and their lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. Gnomes retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
+2 racial bonus to a Craft skill of their choice.
Favored Class: Rogue, Druid, or Bard

*Gnomes with the Spiritual archetype gain a +2 competence bonuses on Knowledge(Nature) checks rather than a Craft skill of their choice.

Ideally, I figure a four person party with a member of each race would be comprised of a human fighter, a dwarf cleric, an elf wizard, and a gnome rogue.
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GOBLINS
-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con
Small: As a Small creature, a goblin gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but uses smaller weapons than humans use, and their lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Low-Light Vision: A goblin can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. Goblins retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Goblin base land speed is 30 feet.
+2 racial bonus on Balance, Escape Artist, Move Silently and Listen checks.
+1 racial bonus on Reflex saves.
Favored Class: Rogue

HOBGOBLINS
+2 Dex, +2 Con
Medium: As Medium creatures, Hobgoblins have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Hobgoblin base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A hobgoblin can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. Hobgoblins retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, and Listen checks.
+1 racial bonus on Reflex saves.
Favored Class: Any

BUGBEARS
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Medium: As medium creatures, bugbears have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
A bugbear's base land speed is 30 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with two levels of humanoid, which provides 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of +0, +2, +0
Racial Skills: A bugbear's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
Racial Feats: A bugbear's humanoid levels give it one feat.
+1 natural armor bonus.
+2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Move Silently and Listen checks.
Low-Light Vision: A bugbear can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. Bugbears retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Favored Class: Ranger
Level adjustment: +1

Orcs
Archetypes (Seafaring, Nomadic, Agrarian)
+2 Str, +2 Con
Medium: As Medium creatures, Orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Orc base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: An orc can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. Orcs retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Seafaring: +2 bonus on Balance and Profession(Sailor) checks, as well as +2 Survival and Knowledge(Nature) checks dealing with fishing/aquatic animals and weather.
Nomadic: +2 bonus on Survival and Knowledge(Nature) checks dealing with animals, plants, seasons and cycles, and weather, as well as a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks.
Agrarian: +2 bonus on Handle Animal and Profession(Farmer) checks, as well as Knowledge(Nature) checks dealing with animals, plants, seasons and cycles, and weather.

GNOLLS
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int -2 Cha
Medium: As medium creatures, gnolls have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
A gnoll's base land speed is 30 feet.
Gnolls have low-light vision and scent.
Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provides 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: A gnoll's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + int modifier). Its class skills are Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, and Survival.
Racial Feats: A gnoll's humanoid levels give it one feat.
Natural Weapons: Bite (1d6)
+2 racial bonus to Listen, Spot and Survival.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Favored Class: Ranger
Level adjustment: +1
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Kobolds
-4 Str, +2 Dex
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Skills: A kobold has a +4 racial bonus on Search, as well as either Profession (miner) or a Craft skill of their choice. In addition, a kobold receives a +2 racial bonus in any one skill of their choice.
Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Natural weapons: Kobolds have two primary claw attacks that deal 1d3 points of slashing damage plus Strength bonus, and a secondary bite attack that deals 1d3 points of piercing damage plus 1/2 Strength bonus.
+2 racial bonus to Reflex saves.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Special Qualities: Light sensitivity.
Favored Class: Sorcerer
Level Adjustment: +0

LIZARDFOLK
+4 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Medium: As medium creatures, lizardfolk have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
A lizardfolk's base land speed is 30 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A lizardfolk begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +0
Racial Skills: A lizardfolk's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, and Swim. Lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Swim checks.
Racial Feats: A lizardfolk's humanoid levels give it one feat.
+3 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: Bite (1d6) and tail slap (1d6)
Hold breath: A lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Favored Class: Barbarian
Level adjustment: +1

TROGLODYTES
-2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Medium: As medium creatures, troglodytes have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
A troglodyte's base land speed is 30 feet. They have a climb speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A troglodyte begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: A troglodyte’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Hide, Climb and Listen. Troglodytes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks (+8 in rocky or underground surroundings) and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Troglodytes use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb checks.
Racial Feats: A troglodyte’s humanoid levels give it one feat. A troglodyte receives Multiattack as a bonus feat.
+3 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4)
Favored Class: Rogue
Level adjustment: +1

Gnorman
2009-06-27, 06:25 AM
So what, elves are just perfect now? As the only race with a bonus and NO penalty, that's pretty unbalanced. Elves are supposed to be frail. Otherwise they're just immortal awesome flawless gods among men, every one a Mary Sue and every one deserving a smack in the mouth. Your gnomes are unbalanced, too - two important bonuses with a penalty to a stat that every gnomish character ever uses as a dump? No. Just no.

Also, realize that giving out too many bonuses pigeonholes a character very easily - if your dwarves have +2 WIS and +2 CON, most of them are going to end up being battle clerics.

My suggestions, if you really want to amp up the power creep to Whisper Gnome level:

Elves: +2 DEX, +2 CHA, -2 CON, -2 STR
Dwarves: +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 DEX, -2 CHA
Gnomes: +2 INT, +2 CON, -2 STR, -2 WIS
Half-Orcs: +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA
Humans: +2 to one ability score of their choice, -2 to one other of their choice

This enforces character roles rather rigidly, unfortunately, but it plays to each race's strengths and highlights their traditional weaknesses - gnomes are sly and tough, but weak and somewhat brash. Elves are frail of form but quick and ethereally beautiful.

dragonfan6490
2009-06-27, 10:55 AM
I completely agree with the above post. Your classes are completely out of balance, I myself am working on a homebrew campaign setting and am trying to figure out how to not pigeonhole the races into certain classes and roles.

Consider taking a page out of 4e, *shudders* and just do away with penalties. I don't play 4e myself, but I have read the books.

Either that, or let the player select the penalty themselves. But that would lead to horrible min/maxing. Honestly I think your best route is to go for the 4e style, leaving out penalties.

Jergmo
2009-06-27, 12:37 PM
Thank you for the input, however, while the attributes you propose balance things out more, it also goes what I was going for. But I've been thinking of potential changes. Also, I would appreciate input on the non-core player race changes.

Dwarf: I'm not sure, here. Might they be okay if I removed Stability?

Elf: Remove Dex bonus, keep the choice between the mental attributes. They're built very much like half-elves and they don't have a Dex bonus, anyway.
Remove the sensory skill bonuses: replace them with Skill Mastery.
Possibly remove low-light vision.

Gnomes: Remove the constitution bonus, possibly low-light vision.

Orcs: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Remove low-light vision?

Khatoblepas
2009-06-27, 03:27 PM
I think the gnolls need a lot of work. They were barely worth LA+1 and no HD in the first place, and your rewrite just jiggered things around a bit and still made them pretty worthless to play. Sure, they have a bite attack and +1NA over core, but, so do Kobolds, who remain LA+0. Lizardfolk are more appealing mechanically than Gnolls, due to actually having abilities and more stat mods. :\ Why can't the more monstery races get some love?

Give them something unique. :) Don't just rewrite their ability score modifiers, because that doesn't really help. I'd propose removing their racial hit die, too. Humanoids don't really go well with it, makes them suck compared to humans. And talking of unique abilities, why did you remove most of them? It doesn't make any sense that you'd cut most of the things that make races unique and reduce them to ability and skill bonuses. Having an active ability that the players can use rather than passive abilities is something fun for players. It's part of the experience. :) By removing those, you iron out all the individuality of a race.

While balance isn't the only thing you need to consider, from a player's point of view it's always better to go with the races that aren't boned. :P Currently Elves and Humans are the only races really worth it. And while I think jiggering the races is a noble idea, the execution has something lacking. Make races fun to play, and people will choose them over Elf and Human. But seriously, why the lack of active abilities?

Jergmo
2009-06-27, 05:35 PM
I think the gnolls need a lot of work. They were barely worth LA+1 and no HD in the first place, and your rewrite just jiggered things around a bit and still made them pretty worthless to play. Sure, they have a bite attack and +1NA over core, but, so do Kobolds, who remain LA+0. Lizardfolk are more appealing mechanically than Gnolls, due to actually having abilities and more stat mods. :\ Why can't the more monstery races get some love?

Give them something unique. :) Don't just rewrite their ability score modifiers, because that doesn't really help. I'd propose removing their racial hit die, too. Humanoids don't really go well with it, makes them suck compared to humans. And talking of unique abilities, why did you remove most of them? It doesn't make any sense that you'd cut most of the things that make races unique and reduce them to ability and skill bonuses. Having an active ability that the players can use rather than passive abilities is something fun for players. It's part of the experience. :) By removing those, you iron out all the individuality of a race.

While balance isn't the only thing you need to consider, from a player's point of view it's always better to go with the races that aren't boned. :P Currently Elves and Humans are the only races really worth it. And while I think jiggering the races is a noble idea, the execution has something lacking. Make races fun to play, and people will choose them over Elf and Human. But seriously, why the lack of active abilities?

You have a point, however, I wanted to ask you what you meant about gnolls not being powerful enough. They seemed to me like they would make excellent rangers, especially with Scent. I lowered their strength bonus, but I also gave them a bonus to dexterity, and before, they didn't have a bite attack or bonuses to listen/search/spot and increased natural armor. They're a lot nicer than when they were brutes running around with just Darkvision. Also, the kobold natural attacks are little more than fluff, as they don't really help them that much. Only an exceptionally strong kobold will do more than 1 damage with them.

Khatoblepas
2009-06-27, 06:32 PM
You have a point, however, I wanted to ask you what you meant about gnolls not being powerful enough. They seemed to me like they would make excellent rangers, especially with Scent. I lowered their strength bonus, but I also gave them a bonus to dexterity, and before, they didn't have a bite attack or bonuses to listen/search/spot and increased natural armor. They're a lot nicer than when they were brutes running around with just Darkvision. Also, the kobold natural attacks are little more than fluff, as they don't really help them that much. Only an exceptionally strong kobold will do more than 1 damage with them.

But... you didn't give Scent to gnolls. It's not in their racial writeup. It would make sense to give it to them, but you didn't. There is no mention of Scent in there. At all. Whatsoever. If you want to give them Scent, state it.

And compared to humans and elves, they make pretty bad rangers. Humans and Elves have +2HD on them (racial HD suck), Elves have +2 Dex, +2 Wis and skill bonuses to two of the gnoll's stuff. Humans have a bonus feat and bonus skill points, and so both of them make excellent rangers. For what it's worth ECL wise, (3, as opposed to 0 for LA+0 races), Gnolls are terrible at everything. Wan skill bonuses, a bite attack and an extra point of AC does nothing to make them not a terrible race to play. Especially because Lizardfolk are objectively better for the same cost. Check it out. For 3 ECL, which would you rather play? (The answer is not a race with racial hit die and level adjustment.)

It's not a case of roleplaying, though. Races need to be balanced with the investment you put in them. Gnolls need to be as powerful as a Level 3 human.

And giving 3 natural attacks to the kobold means three sneak attacks while flanking for no cost. Sneak attack dice mitigate the loss of strength. It's like giving them multiweapon fighting for free at low levels, and something to augment later on. And, you're still small and without a Con penalty, so you're no worse off than a human in this department.

Once again. Unique. Abilities. Unique. There is no point in playing a race if you can be a human and flavor yourself otherwise.

Jergmo
2009-06-27, 06:45 PM
But... you didn't give Scent to gnolls. It's not in their racial writeup. It would make sense to give it to them, but you didn't. There is no mention of Scent in there. At all. Whatsoever. If you want to give them Scent, state it.

And compared to humans and elves, they make pretty bad rangers. Humans and Elves have +2HD on them (racial HD suck), Elves have +2 Dex, +2 Wis and skill bonuses to two of the gnoll's stuff. Humans have a bonus feat and bonus skill points, and so both of them make excellent rangers. For what it's worth ECL wise, (3, as opposed to 0 for LA+0 races), Gnolls are terrible at everything. Wan skill bonuses, a bite attack and an extra point of AC does nothing to make them not a terrible race to play. Especially because Lizardfolk are objectively better for the same cost. Check it out. For 3 ECL, which would you rather play? (The answer is not a race with racial hit die and level adjustment.)

It's not a case of roleplaying, though. Races need to be balanced with the investment you put in them. Gnolls need to be as powerful as a Level 3 human.

And giving 3 natural attacks to the kobold means three sneak attacks while flanking for no cost. Sneak attack dice mitigate the loss of strength. It's like giving them multiweapon fighting for free at low levels, and something to augment later on. And, you're still small and without a Con penalty, so you're no worse off than a human in this department.

Once again. Unique. Abilities. Unique. There is no point in playing a race if you can be a human and flavor yourself otherwise.

GNOLLS
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int -2 Cha
Medium: As medium creatures, gnolls have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
A gnoll's base land speed is 30 feet.
Gnolls have low-light vision and scent.
Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provides 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: A gnoll's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + int modifier). Its class skills are Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, and Survival.
Racial Feats: A gnoll's humanoid levels give it one feat.
Natural Weapons: Bite (1d6)
+2 racial bonus to Listen, Spot and Survival.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Favored Class: Ranger
Level adjustment: +1

Also, they're not that far behind. I mean, they get their first class level for free.

Khatoblepas
2009-06-28, 07:51 AM
Also, they're not that far behind. I mean, they get their first class level for free.

Ah, I didn't expect it to be there. :P It's written differently to the rest of the races' abilities.

But still, the rule is, any class level is better than racial hit die. Humanoid hit die is practially worthless, and they do lose 2 BAB. By removing their +2 Str and keeping those racial hit die, you are putting them behind everyone else in terms of being a ranger (that is, bonuses to hit, spellcasting, animal companion, any class features whatsoever)

Scent is also not worth 3 levels. Their ability score mods total to a net +2, which is worse than the elf's or hobgoblin's +4 net. And they lose three levels. They don't get anything to compensate their loss of levels. They don't get any class levels for free because humanoid hit die aren't free class levels. They're there to make player characters weaker, not stronger.

You have to think about it in terms of balancing them to the levels you have to give up to be them. You have to give them abilities and special qualities equal to the investment you give up. Right now, they are an LA+0 race with extra HD and a useless level adjustment. Especially with your empowered core races.

And once again, why not add unique abilities that differentiate between the races? You have some, but mostly the differences are in ability scores and skill bonuses. It needs some punch, something extra.

Jergmo
2009-06-28, 01:44 PM
Ah, I didn't expect it to be there. :P It's written differently to the rest of the races' abilities.

But still, the rule is, any class level is better than racial hit die. Humanoid hit die is practially worthless, and they do lose 2 BAB. By removing their +2 Str and keeping those racial hit die, you are putting them behind everyone else in terms of being a ranger (that is, bonuses to hit, spellcasting, animal companion, any class features whatsoever)

Scent is also not worth 3 levels. Their ability score mods total to a net +2, which is worse than the elf's or hobgoblin's +4 net. And they lose three levels. They don't get anything to compensate their loss of levels. They don't get any class levels for free because humanoid hit die aren't free class levels. They're there to make player characters weaker, not stronger.

You have to think about it in terms of balancing them to the levels you have to give up to be them. You have to give them abilities and special qualities equal to the investment you give up. Right now, they are an LA+0 race with extra HD and a useless level adjustment. Especially with your empowered core races.

And once again, why not add unique abilities that differentiate between the races? You have some, but mostly the differences are in ability scores and skill bonuses. It needs some punch, something extra.

Alright, I'll figure something out, but what would you suggest to give gnolls besides the +2 Str back?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-28, 05:06 PM
Try giving gnolls Trip, like wolves. Of course, unless I missed something, you'd need to put in a bite attack.

Gnomes: Give them a tinkerey ability.
Elves: Spell-like abilities.
Humans: Adaptability; maybe something with untrained skills?
Dwarves: I think the SRD version has it nailed.
Orcs: Brute force. Duh.
Kobolds: Let 'em build traps with fewer materials. Add stealthy abilities and/or bonuses to sniping.
Halflings: Something with overland travel, maybe that spell that increases speed by 10 feet for 1 hour/level, once per day?
And so on.