Paladin Appeal (PEACH)

[The White Knight]

How many of you (who actually play the paladin class) find the class itself (not the flavor behind it) less appealing at higher levels - say, above 6 or so.

Let's look at what advances a paladin receives after 6th level:

Additional daily smiting - attainable through the extra smiting feat
Additional remove disease per week - not terribly useful on average. Too case specific.
Stronger smiting attacks - certainly a plus, but going into Pious Templar makes for even more delicoius smiting.
Mount advancement - again, a plus, but I know if I was playing a character focused on mounted combat, I'd take my turning attempts and my divine feats and run on over to the cavalier class right quick-like
More healing from lay on hands - nice, but not enough.
Spell Advancement - far too limited to be worth sticking around so very many levels for.

My proposal? A variant - Please examine and criticize honestly; I'd like to actually balance this out:

HD, Skills, Alignment, Proficiencies and fluff all the same.
Saves: same, except high will
Levels 1-3 are identical. Smite Evil is gained at all the regular intervals.
Level 4 - gains turn undead ability, and the ability to spend a turning attempt to operate any cure wounds wand (light, moderate, serious, critical) for a number of rounds equal to charisma modifier. No spellcasting.
Level 5 - gains special weapon, like the kensai. Maximum enhancement bonus is one-half paladin level. No Mount. Use mount death rules for when weapon is lost or destroyed, not kensai rules.
Levels 6,9,12,15,18 - gains a bonus feat instead of remove disease. This bonus feat may be any fighter feat, divine feat, or turning-related feat the paladin qualifies for. May also select the usual remove disease if desired.
Level 7 - When wielding special weapon, attack is considered good for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction
Level 13 - When wielding special weapon, deals additional 2d6 points of damage to any evil creature struck


Summary: Loses mount, loses spellcasting. Gains high will save, special weapon, and some freedom to customize the character a little (instead of being bound to remove disease). Retains the ability to use cure wands, but at a slight cost. Gains the 'holy' weapon ability over time, does not count toward weapon enhancement.


I looked this over when I made it, and thought it didn't seem ludicrously powerful, but gave me more desire to wait out 20 levels in paladin instead of switching out after only a few. It's likely not completely balanced with how the paladin was before, but it needed a little zest anyways IMO. Put up against an evil fighter or cleric of equal level, there'd be a pretty reasonable competition, which says to me it's at least close to what it should be.

The special weapon and related Holy Strike abilities are my largest concern, I think. Suggestions on how to make something of this nature balance well with its special mount counterpart would be awesome.

[tgva8889]

So it's not a Paladin, it's a Holy Fighter. Thus, you could call it the Holy Warrior class instead of a Paladin. Because truthfully, they are not really a paladin unless they ride a horse and have all those abilities of a paladin.

[Dhavaer]

Why wouldn't they be a paladin? If they're Lawful Good and follow the Code of Conduct, they're a paladin, class features or not.
I think it looks good, but I can't say whether it's balanced.

[Valiena]

Why a warhorse makes a Paladin is beyond me. I always let my PCs trade it off for something they will actually use.

I do not like the Kensai like weapon enchantment. An ability you might consider is Fast Healing. Flavour wise it shows he is a channeling postive energy (which is not technically good but...) This can be scaled.

All those extra feats are too powerful. At any rate Fighter's get bonus feats, and Rogues later, why steal their thunder? I suggest specfic supernatural powers, or a list they can chose from. Things like Acid resistance 5, or Divine Power once a day for a number of rounds equal to cha mod. Those types of things. Make it different from a Fighter, not a Fighter with better saves and lay on hands.

[Leon]

Looks good apart from the Fighter feats - possibly have a very small pool of fighter feats but have mostly divine or Turning based feats

[The White Knight]

The notion that a paladin MUST be a mounted warrior is absurd. Besides, there's nothing that says this one isn't: he still gets ride as a class skill, and can buy himself a horse (one that stays around all day regardless of class level :o) like anyone else can. I was never overly drawn to the special mount class feature (at least the 3.5 version of it).


So possibly restrict the feats to divine feats, turning based feats, and things like extra smiting and the like?

Valiena, two questions:
First, is the weapon issue a question of balance or flavor? I couldn't tell from your post. If balance, is there something else you can think of that could be given some sort of level-based growth over time, much like the way the mount was? Should I keep the level 7 and 13 good/holy abilities? Perhaps keeping these and adding in a few more similarly flavored abilities would be a better substitute for (essentially) a free magic weapon?
Second, what do you usually let your players trade off the mount for?

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Weapon counts as Good/Lawful/etc. for DR purposes is a good idea. The weapon counts as Holy is quite overpowered.

[Kalbereth]

Well, personally, I actually liked the few spells the paladin got, to reflect their ability to heal, buff, and defend, which is pretty much all they get (last I checked) and I always really truly liked the paladin mount because of the stat bonuses.

The turning, however, seemed completely redundant because of how truly useless it usually is with the level it's typically at. It's just not effective. I removed it. Instead, at 4th level, paladins in my game (note, personal opinion) get the feat Nimbus of Light (Exalted Deeds) Then, at 8th, they get the upgrade to the Nimbus that lets them damage undead, and then at 12th they get the one that lets them take Con damage to heal their allies. I really, truly like those feats.

Then, since the class balances somewhat with what it was before now still, I gave paladins Leadership as a bonus feat at 6th level. I'm also typically lenient in player's mount choice, to allow their characters more specific flavor.


As far as yours go, I never really liked the Kensai. The Holy Weapon thing seems perfect, but the personal weapon seems too...Oriental maybe?...just a personal flavor issue. And I also agree with the others, the stacks of bonus feats are unnecessary.

[Parallax]

and the ability to spend a turning attempt to operate any cure wounds wand (light, moderate, serious, critical) for a number of rounds equal to charisma modifier. No spellcasting.

This seems needlessly complicated. Either let them use any wand, or any divine wand, or drop it entirely. If you want give them extra healing power, simply enhance their lay on hands ability.
(I would say consider their CHA modifier to be one point higher than it really is for the purpose of lay on hands, for every four Paladin levels. It has the additional benefit of encouraging the Paladin to stick with the class.)
Level Extra points
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 16
9 18
10 20
11 22
12 36
...
15 45
16 64
...
19 76
20 100
CHA 16, Pal 4: 16 instead of 12 points of LoH.
CHA 18, Pal 10: 60 instead of 40.
CHA 12, Pal 16: 80 instead of 16.
CHA 18, Pal 16: 128 instead of 64, for instance.
The boost starts small but ends up being very significant at high levels. Also, even low CHA Paladins (like Miko ;) ) end up having very good LoH abilities.

I don't know anything about the kensai rules, so I can't comment on that. Also, I'm a sucker for familiars so I don't think I would like to trade the Mount for a special weapon if the deal was offered to me, but it has to do with personal taste, not balance issues.

As far as the extra feats go, I would go with one every four levels rather than three, but if you stick with one in three at least shift them one or two levels so they don't coincide with the extra feats a pure Paladin would get from his character level.
(I would go with an extra feat at levels 8, 12, 16 and 20, or 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)

I have one major concern, and that is that this Paladin might out-fighter the Fighter. After all, most of the time, the PCs fight evil creatures and people, so you should expect getting the damage bonus often.

[Bierhoff]

Valiena- "Why a warhorse makes a Paladin is beyond me."

I believe that comes from the fact that the word orginally refered to Charlemagne's 12 champion knights (sorta like Auther's). By now the paladin class has moved along way from it's root, so to call it a holy warrior is probably more accurate.

I like the idea of giving a holy sword/weapon.

[Knifie_Sp00nie]

I'm with others on the holy weapon abilities possibly being a bit too powerful-- at least as an always-on ability.

Maybe you could make it an x/day ability? Or, what about adding your Cha bonus to damage against evil creatures? The swashbuckler gets a similar ability and it shouldn't be too unbalanced if it starts at high enough level.

For something to replace turning, what about a holy aura that would grant an AC bonus versus attacking undead? It could start at 1(at lvl4) and go up +1 every 4 levels. Maybe the attacker gets a will save to avoid the penalty for the duration of the combat.

Just a few ideas.

[Valiena]

Instead of a mount one guy Turned Undead as a Cleric his level instead of -3, and another Guy talked me into 2 extra skill points a level.

I do not like the Weapon for flavour purposes. I have always felt that a Paladin should be a paladin, with abilities not matched anywhere with the exception of PrC that absolutely require Paladin to enter. I do not like the reasoning some people (not you) that somehow Fighter/Cleric = Paladin.

[tape_measure]

ahh Valiena! thank you.

The bit about having to have paladin lvls to take on certain PrC's.

I really like having Paladins the way they are. i do agree that after a whle....they level off, but thats par for the course.

I like the ideas about the holy weapon, but i agree that it should be an x/day theme.

The mount subject to me seems to be underscored. Why not find something other than a warhorse if you want flavor. Celestial Lion, Pegasus, griffon, hippogriff, umberhulk, etc.

[Sir_Banjo]

Why a warhorse makes a Paladin is beyond me. I always let my PCs trade it off for something they will actually use.

I like having a horse. Perhaps you can't take him through a dungeon or a town but in situations where he wouldn't be appropriate, but there's an easy solution to that. I just have my horse ride into a convinient mist when I don't need him and back out when I do.

White Knight's right, there's really not a whole lot of reason to stay paladin past lvl 6. However there are a number of prestigue classes, such as the Cavalier and aforementioned Pious Templar (perhaps Blackguard should be added in here too?), that enhance a paldins abilities already.

Paladins require good, or at least average, stats across the board. The sole exception in the 3.5 pal is int. Under your version, people are less likely to invest a good roll/points into wisdom. Especially under point-buy, this should give them more resources to invest in the other stats. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I haven't considered it long enough to make up my mind, but it is something to think over.

I agree with Valiena that you should leave the fighter feats to fighters.