PDA

View Full Version : Legacy Weapons - making them work



Thurbane
2009-06-22, 09:53 PM
This thread was prompted by a response from another thread:

Not necessarily, though you have to build custom Legacies for them to be worth it. Casters in particular can get saucy metamagic augmentations at some trivial costs in skills or attacks or whatever, and melee can get a really nice boost in replacing multiple 100k+ items with one Legacy Weapon granting that Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Cunning, etc.

Really, if I were to try and build a pre-epic Mage Slayer-character right now, he'd have a Gauntlet called Wizard Slayer. It just makes life so much easier and allows duplicating many of Wizard's tricks. Sure, the odds would still be incredibly against him, but at least he'd have the WBL to take the "item Wizard"-shtick a bit further.

Basically, I wanted to know tips and tricks people have used to make Weapons of Legacy more workable. It's a concept I really like and want to incorporate in my games, but on paper it seems very lackluster, and unppealing for a player to invest in.

kjones
2009-06-22, 10:48 PM
What would be the consequence of simply taking away the penalties for legacy weapons? Would the character wielding the weapon really be that overpowered?

Chronos
2009-06-22, 11:24 PM
Casters in particular can get saucy metamagic augmentations at some trivial costs in skills or attacks or whatever,Except that the penalties from a legacy weapon are supposed to match the benefits. Penalties to attack rolls are meant for items that benefit warrior-types; an item that gives metamagic abilities should use the table that gives casting-related penalties.

Eldariel
2009-06-23, 04:51 AM
What would be the consequence of simply taking away the penalties for legacy weapons? Would the character wielding the weapon really be that overpowered?

Well, they'd be way undercosted for what they do. Whether you consider that a problem is up to you. Basically, they are artifacts that are fair to acquire pre-epic.


Except that the penalties from a legacy weapon are supposed to match the benefits. Penalties to attack rolls are meant for items that benefit warrior-types; an item that gives metamagic abilities should use the table that gives casting-related penalties.

Few spell slots, maybe. But really, as all of 'em involve losing HP and saves, I don't see it being unfair to use 4-2 for a caster item, for example (as long as it's a martial caster like Cleric or Druid). If you happen to have Practiced Spellcaster, 4-6 and 4-8 are just fine, and 4-7 isn't bad anyways. I've personally used 4-3 on a martial type before simply because all it means is you basically need +2 Con to be the same as before.


Anyways, the basic trix to making good Legacy Weapons is unfortunately to make the weapon itself not-very-magical. Unfortunate, but true. The weapon enhancement prices are so high that it's a better idea to generally make it a nuki-te, a gauntlet or some such as an aide rather than your primary weapon.


That said, they make for some helluva equipment. For example, there's the Metamagic-option of taking a bunch of Metamagic Enhancers, and Contingency and such for a kickass caster item for e.g. Cleric (non-Wizards will appreciate Personal Mind Blank and Moment of Prescience).

Then you can take a bunch of the stuff a caster hunter needs and cram them into one relatively cheap item. My latest blueprint had a large number of Creature Compasses (for multiple Humanoid-types, Undead, Outsider & Aberrations; basically types that are like to contain casters) as the Least abilities, Cunning, Evasion & 3/day Mirror Image for Lesser then Personal Mind Blank, Heal Self (once/day; really handy and something I wish I had had in that caster slaying fight we played) & Moment of Prescience out of the Greaters. I've got the idea I took +10 to Spot and Hide at some point, though I can't remember for sure; they'd be in the Mirror Image or Evasion-slots

Contingency is a bit unclear as to whether you can use an item to generate the spell to be completed; if so, it's far better than the Mirror Images and could use a different construction entirely (fitting Dimension Door in there; Mass Heal is also something to think about).

High Charisma-types can make for solid offensive casting with one of these too; indeed, you can expand your options as a Sorcerer, for example, quite easily while maintaining your spell versatility.


But yeah, the crux of it is to take a bunch of synergistic abilities the character wouldn't normally have access to to save him/her resources with a somewhat bearable line of drawbacks (just hit something you have a bit in excess too).

You may also be interested in the following thread:
Building a Weapon of Legacy, for dummies (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1031050)

bosssmiley
2009-06-23, 05:39 AM
Have Legacy Scions replace their standard class features with legacy weapon ability enhancement. If your magical power (or "power source", to borrow a 4E term) is "Has a cool magic sword" rather than "Slings spells" or "Can kill you with nail clippers", then your class abilities should be centred around enhancing that.

This bull about losing points from BAB, Saves and HP is just giving with one hand and taking with the other. The cost of being a legacy scion should ideally be that you suck at not being one; just as a fighter sucks at being a wizard or a cleric sucks at being a rogue.

Legacy Weapons: nice idea; b0rked execution. It's almost like WOTC was using the punters to do their playtesting of possible prototypes for a new edition or something... :smallconfused:

tenshiakodo
2009-06-23, 09:43 AM
Having played the Earthdawn fantasy rpg, I'd have to say they had a system for "legacy weapons" done much better.

To unlock the full potential of a legendary weapon required you to learn the history of the weapon, as well as perform legendary tasks based on this history. Think of the 12 labors of Hercules.

As examples, the first level ability could be accessed as simply as "learn the name of the item".

Later on, you might get something like "visit the site of a famous battle the item's original owner was involved in".

One item, well down it's list, had something like this:

Nioku's Bow

Nioku once had a rival, an Elven archer. Having beaten her in an archery contest, she gave her bow to him as a sign of respect for her abilities. Years later, she bested him in a similar contest, and he returned the bow to her, acknowledging that she was the better archer.

To unlock the further potential of Nioku's Bow, you must give it to an enemy. If they return it, you receive (a ton of xp) and the next level of advancement.


Forget this silly method of losing attack bonuses and such; about the only resource you can lose without feeling stupid is hit points (which reminds me of another Earthdawn concept, blood magic, where you permanently sacrifice some of your hit points to fuel the power of some magical item or effect.)

kamikasei
2009-06-23, 09:49 AM
Having played the Earthdawn fantasy rpg, I'd have to say they had a system for "legacy weapons" done much better.

Isn't that pretty much exactly how Weapons of Legacy work, too (except that you have to pay for the ritual)?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-23, 09:50 AM
Remove the penalties, give appropriate gold piece costs to all abilities, then require tasks of about appropriate ELs to unlock those abilities and have said abilities count as treasure for those tasks.

It's a bit dull, but it'll certainly be balanced. Maybe halve it; why can't a feat save you 100,000 gp by level 20, after all?

Roderick_BR
2009-06-23, 09:51 AM
Here's one way to take them: Make them into minor artifacts. Weapons of legend that rubbed off on the bad-assery of their previous owners, with powers that need to be unlocked story-wise. Feat cost is already a cost for the characters, no need to give them more penalties.
The way they are now, it's way better to just forget them and buy some normal magic itens.

And make some decent stories. Most of the ones in the book makes little sense."I was bullied when I was a child, so, after mommy died, I put on these gauntlets, and beat up the people that messed up with me, and now my gauntlets retroactivelly gained powers related to my bad childhood." Uh, what?

Eldariel
2009-06-23, 10:02 AM
Here's one way to take them: Make them into minor artifacts. Weapons of legend that rubbed off on the bad-assery of their previous owners, with powers that need to be unlocked story-wise. Feat cost is already a cost for the characters, no need to give them more penalties.

You get the feats as a part of the appropriate rituals; you don't need to separately spend a feat slot on it.

Partysan
2009-06-23, 01:25 PM
Just let them pay some XP for the rituals, lets say 500, 1500 and 4500 in addition to the normal cost and call it a day.
I have long tried to balance out WoL, but in the end I just lost the fun in it and decided on somehing less creative.