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Umael
2009-06-22, 11:58 PM
Since the forums seem to be full of people who love to point out how to optimize, I thought I would toss out there some potential characters out there and get people's suggestions. I want people's opinions on both the (possible) fluff and the mechanics.

Also, please, don't criticize my choices. For example, I know that people bag on the Monk, but not only have I enjoyed playing a Monk, but the DM in question isn't that experienced and I don't want to break her by bringing in a character that is just uber-sick.

Just for clarification, I am not sure what level I will be when I start, I have no idea what other PCs there will be, I don't know how many PCs there will be or what roles they will be, etc. My stats will probably be rolled, but to make things easy, assume a standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) to use as a placemarker. I believe we could start as high as 7th, so I'm looking at how I go from 1st to 7th for all characters.

1) Illumian (from Races of Destiny) w/hoon and krau, LG, Cleric (of Wee Jas) 3 (Domains: Death, Magic)/Wizard 3/Geomancer 1 (from Complete Arcane). Feats: 1st - Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil, 3rd - Enhanced Power Sigils, 6th - Undying Fate (all Feats from Races of Destiny).

In typical Illumian fashion, my character would be a well-studied and flexible member of society. She would combine arcane and divine, life and death.

(Why LG? Because I spontaneously cast cure spells, which LN Clerics of Wee Jas cannot.)

With the sigils, I would be casting 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells as if I was a 7th level caster. Yes, I know that this puts me one to two spell levels behind a dedicated spell caster, but this gives me a lot of versatility, and as I go up levels, this will become more pronounced. The only issue is, there are only ten levels to geomancer, so what next? Mystic Theurge? I thought about it, and if necessary, I guess.

(What are people's opinions on the Geomancer? Still too weak? Too powerful? Too weir- nah!! That's impossible!!:smalltongue:)

Also, what are people's opinions on which should be my first feat, Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil (I'll get the other at 9th?

(Bright Sigil - makes my sigils as bright as a daylight spell for as long as I concentrate on it plus 1 round, takes a standard action to do so.
(Subtle Sigil - makes my sigils disappear or reappear as a free action (allowing me to pass as a normal human), but I still get the benefits of my sigils - without this feat, it takes a standard action and while they are doused, I lose my benefits)

2) Dragonborn (from Races of the Dragon) - I don't know which should be my base race) with Heart[i] aspect, Dragon Shaman 7 (from [i]PHBII). Considered Feats: (From Races of the Dragon): Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings, Entangling Exhalation, Exhaled Barrier; (from Draconomicon: Clinging Breath, Endure Blows (requires Toughness), Enlarge Breath, Heighten Breath, Lingering Breath, Maximize Breath, Quicken Breath, Recover Breath, Shape Breath)

The big questions are - what should be my base race, which dragon is my totem (has to be Good) and what feats should I take?

Thoughts on the race - The Dragon Shaman benefits from Strength (it is a melee-oriented class), Constitution (hit points and increases the DC of my breath weapons), and Charisma (for my ability to heal and remove negative conditions). As a Dragonborn, I already have +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. I was thinking Dwarf for the extra +2 Constitution, but the -2 Charisma hurts. On the other hand, I could go with a Desert Dwarf for an additional +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. An Arctic or Aquatic Dwarf would be just ridiculous (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Dexterity, -2 Charisma) - much better to go with an Earth Dwarf (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma). Also, I don't want a race with a level adjustment to it - I might be starting at first level, after all.

Thoughts on the Feats - since I intend on using breath weapon a lot, the best Feat at 1st level is probably Recover Breath (dropping the average from 2.5 rounds to 1.75 rounds). This eliminates Dragon Tail and Dragon Wings. I also think that Endure Blows might be a bit of an issue, as I really am not that interested in getting Toughness for DR 2/-, which would be nice for 3rd level, but only so-so later on - as well as delaying optimizing my breath effectiveness by five levels.

(By the way, what Tier is the Dragon Shaman? Tier 3??)

3) This is more a discussion than a character. I thought about playing a Duskblade. I really did. But the more I thought about it, the more it didn't seem to fit. Don't get me wrong, full BAB with arcane spell-casting in armor is nice, like the paladin only with an offensive twist to it. But first of all, it doesn't make it clear what spell list the Duskblade gets (I am assuming that it is everything that is on the wizard/sorcerer list, but probably not). Secondly, I can't find a prestige class that really fits. Sure, there are a few that give full BAB and advance the spell-casting - but they do that every other level. Duskblade already advances pretty slowly on the spells, so this feels not only like I am gimping my character, but... it just doesn't feel right. There are a lot of Prestige Classes that do a good job of supporting the paladin class and making it feel like what happens is a natural extension of the direction that someone who is on the path of the paladin would take. For the Duskblade... not so much.

4) For this character... well... I think it is best if I illustrate this one with an imagined exchange between my character (a one-eyed half-orc wielding a shortspear) and a particularly religious orc.

My PC: Pardon me, I think there might be a misunderstanding here. Perhaps you would be so kind as to illuminate me about your religion.
Orc: Uh? You want learn orc god?
My PC: Why, yes, yes I do.
Orc: Orc god powerful!
My PC: My god is powerful too.
Orc: Orc god great war god!
My PC: My god is great war god too!
Orc: Orc god has one eye!
My PC: My god has one eye too!
Orc: Orc god use mighty spear in battle against enemies!
My PC: My god uses a mighty spear in battle against his enemies!
Orc: All hail Gruumsh!!!
My PC: All hail Odin!!! *smites orc*

So... yeah. Thoughts on that one?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-23, 12:05 AM
3) This is more a discussion than a character. I thought about playing a Duskblade. I really did. But the more I thought about it, the more it didn't seem to fit. Don't get me wrong, full BAB with arcane spell-casting in armor is nice, like the paladin only with an offensive twist to it. But first of all, it doesn't make it clear what spell list the Duskblade gets (I am assuming that it is everything that is on the wizard/sorcerer list, but probably not). Secondly, I can't find a prestige class that really fits. Sure, there are a few that give full BAB and advance the spell-casting - but they do that every other level. Duskblade already advances pretty slowly on the spells, so this feels not only like I am gimping my character, but... it just doesn't feel right. There are a lot of Prestige Classes that do a good job of supporting the paladin class and making it feel like what happens is a natural extension of the direction that someone who is on the path of the paladin would take. For the Duskblade... not so much.Check the back of the Duskblade entry, the spell list is well-hidden. You generally want to take it to either 7 or 13. After that, a dip in Spellsword is nice, and Abjurant Champion is decent(though you can't use most of it). I like going Jade Phoenix Mage(ToB), personally, though you lose a few levels of casting. Really, though, you don't need a PrC. Duskblade can survive without it.
4) For this character... well... I think it is best if I illustrate this one with an imagined exchange between my character (a one-eyed half-orc wielding a shortspear) and a particularly religious orc.

My PC: Pardon me, I think there might be a misunderstanding here. Perhaps you would be so kind as to illuminate me about your religion.
Orc: Uh? You want learn orc god?
My PC: Why, yes, yes I do.
Orc: Orc god powerful!
My PC: My god is powerful too.
Orc: Orc god great war god!
My PC: My god is great war god too!
Orc: Orc god has one eye!
My PC: My god has one eye too!
Orc: Orc god use mighty spear in battle against enemies!
My PC: My god uses a mighty spear in battle against his enemies!
Orc: All hail Gruumsh!!!
My PC: All hail Odin!!! *smites orc*

So... yeah. Thoughts on that one?Stormlord, from RotW IIRC, fits your fluff. I think it even uses a spear.

Keld Denar
2009-06-23, 12:43 AM
Your first character is...rather weak. Illumian is good. Wizard OR Cleric is good. Both? Not...so...good.

Think about it, as a 7th level straight cleric or straight wizard, you'd have 4th level spells. That means Evards Black Tentacles, or Solid Fog, or Dim Door. That means Recitation, or Delay Death, or Freedom of Movement.

Instead, you have a couple of 2nd level spells. The power difference between them just isn't comparable. It really isn't.

If you were really bent on going with both, Mystic Theuge is way better than Geomancer (and thats not saying much). Really, you'd be better off going straight one or the other.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-23, 12:46 AM
1) Illumian (from Races of Destiny) w/hoon and krau, LG, Cleric (of Wee Jas) 3 (Domains: Death, Magic)/Wizard 3/Geomancer 1 (from Complete Arcane). Feats: 1st - Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil, 3rd - Enhanced Power Sigils, 6th - Undying Fate (all Feats from Races of Destiny).

In typical Illumian fashion, my character would be a well-studied and flexible member of society. She would combine arcane and divine, life and death.

(Why LG? Because I spontaneously cast cure spells, which LN Clerics of Wee Jas cannot.)

With the sigils, I would be casting 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells as if I was a 7th level caster. Yes, I know that this puts me one to two spell levels behind a dedicated spell caster, but this gives me a lot of versatility, and as I go up levels, this will become more pronounced. The only issue is, there are only ten levels to geomancer, so what next? Mystic Theurge? I thought about it, and if necessary, I guess.

(What are people's opinions on the Geomancer? Still too weak? Too powerful? Too weir- nah!! That's impossible!!:smalltongue:)

Also, what are people's opinions on which should be my first feat, Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil (I'll get the other at 9th?

(Bright Sigil - makes my sigils as bright as a daylight spell for as long as I concentrate on it plus 1 round, takes a standard action to do so.
(Subtle Sigil - makes my sigils disappear or reappear as a free action (allowing me to pass as a normal human), but I still get the benefits of my sigils - without this feat, it takes a standard action and while they are doused, I lose my benefits)

I think you mean Geomancer in Complete Divine, because Geometer is the one in Complete Arcane.

Multiclassing 3/3/X for a Theurge build is a bad choice at any level, especially in the early levels. Having twice as many 2nd level spells is not equal to having 4th level spells. Twice as many spells of half the level is linearly equal, but spells increase in power exponentially as they get higher level, so you end up with a severely weak character.

Furthermore, there's a feat called Improved Sigil: Krau that will let you go something like Wizard 2/ Cleric 1/ Geomancer, since your 1st level spells will count as 2nd level spells. You'd be wasting levels starting out 3/3/X.

Geomancer is a severely weak class for one reason: it only increases the spellcasting of one of your classes. Going Wizard 2/ Cleric 1/ Mystic Theurge wouldn't be half bad, but Wizard 2/ Cleric 1/ Geomancer basically wastes a level by multiclassing into Cleric, because it is not worth splitting the spellcasting increases between two classes.


2) Dragonborn (from Races of the Dragon) - I don't know which should be my base race) with Heart[i] aspect, Dragon Shaman 7 (from [i]PHBII). Considered Feats: (From Races of the Dragon): Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings, Entangling Exhalation, Exhaled Barrier; (from Draconomicon: Clinging Breath, Endure Blows (requires Toughness), Enlarge Breath, Heighten Breath, Lingering Breath, Maximize Breath, Quicken Breath, Recover Breath, Shape Breath)

The big questions are - what should be my base race, which dragon is my totem (has to be Good) and what feats should I take?

Thoughts on the race - The Dragon Shaman benefits from Strength (it is a melee-oriented class), Constitution (hit points and increases the DC of my breath weapons), and Charisma (for my ability to heal and remove negative conditions). As a Dragonborn, I already have +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. I was thinking Dwarf for the extra +2 Constitution, but the -2 Charisma hurts. On the other hand, I could go with a Desert Dwarf for an additional +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. An Arctic or Aquatic Dwarf would be just ridiculous (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Dexterity, -2 Charisma) - much better to go with an Earth Dwarf (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma). Also, I don't want a race with a level adjustment to it - I might be starting at first level, after all.

Thoughts on the Feats - since I intend on using breath weapon a lot, the best Feat at 1st level is probably Recover Breath (dropping the average from 2.5 rounds to 1.75 rounds). This eliminates Dragon Tail and Dragon Wings. I also think that Endure Blows might be a bit of an issue, as I really am not that interested in getting Toughness for DR 2/-, which would be nice for 3rd level, but only so-so later on - as well as delaying optimizing my breath effectiveness by five levels.

(By the way, what Tier is the Dragon Shaman? Tier 3??)

Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) is a good base race to use with Dragonborn. Your total ability score adjustments would be Str +4, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2, and you'd get to keep the swim speed. Mongrelfolk from Races of Destiny is another high-Con race, but it takes an even bigger Cha penalty. Water Halfling is also decent, you'd get Str -2, Con +4, though you'd have a slower movement rate.

Dragonborn cannot take Endure Blows, it requires the Dragon creature type, and being a Humanoid with the Dragonblood subtype doesn't qualify. If you want DR, maybe pick up Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), it's also an acquired template so you can gain it after Dragonborn to not lose any of its traits.

Don't worry about any metabreath feats, you won't have enough feats as it is. Entangling Exhalation is good, Recover Breath is good, but anything beyond that isn't worth it. Your Dragonborn breath weapon and your Dragon Shaman breath weapon are on separate wait timers, so with Recover Breath you could probably breathe every round. Get Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon, Entangled foes move at half speed and always provoke AoOs for moving since they can't 5-ft. step. Take max ranks in Intimidate, and get the skill trick Never Outnumbered from Complete Scoundrel. Take the feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, and/or get the feat Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon. Use an Entangling Exhalation every round, if you get a round when you can't breathe make an Intimidate check to demoralize. This character is best built as a debuffer and battlefield controller who can get fairly tanky, especially with Mineral Warrior.

Doc Roc
2009-06-23, 12:48 AM
Geomancer is superb in some situations, but probably not this one. I wonder if you can qualify for arcane hierophant? It's a particularly good PrC as dual casters go, and I seem to remember it's from races of the wild. Basically, MT with class features. It even advances wildshape and merges your familiar with your animal companion. I think you might consider using early entry hacks to defray the not inconsiderable pain of trying to access it, however. :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-23, 01:11 AM
My favorite Illumian Theurge build is Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus. At level 15 you have 14th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting. With Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you can spend Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you know. You have high enough level spell slots to Quicken your Wizard spells with Augmented Casting. Take Able Learner, since Illumians do have the Human subtype, and you can be the party skillmonkey since you'll have all the right class skills as well as Trapfinding. It even gets some decent weapon proficiencies for when you don't want to spend a spell. With flaws you can even start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM, though if you don't do that you can always pick up the fifth Wizard level after you max out Ultimate Magus to get Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-23, 01:18 AM
(What are people's opinions on the Geomancer? Still too weak? Too powerful? Too weir- nah!! That's impossible!!:smalltongue:)

Also, what are people's opinions on which should be my first feat, Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil (I'll get the other at 9th?
Geomancer has the same tight requirements as a Mystic Theurge, but only advances one class's casting. Mystic Theurge is bad. Geomancer is terrible.

Drift isn't a bad idea, but its mechanic is problematic -- giving primarily melee abilities to a delayed-progression spellcaster which, in its intended entry route, will have 3 levels of Wizard BA and HP.


3) This is more a discussion than a character. I thought about playing a Duskblade. I really did. But the more I thought about it, the more it didn't seem to fit.
This isn't helpful unless you mention what you're looking for.

So... yeah. Thoughts on that one?
Unless you're wondering if Odin is a god, I have no idea what you're asking here.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-23, 01:50 AM
Since the forums seem to be full of people who love to point out how to optimize, I thought I would toss out there some potential characters out there and get people's suggestions. I want people's opinions on both the (possible) fluff and the mechanics.

Also, please, don't criticize my choices. For example, I know that people bag on the Monk, but not only have I enjoyed playing a Monk, but the DM in question isn't that experienced and I don't want to break her by bringing in a character that is just uber-sick.

Just for clarification, I am not sure what level I will be when I start, I have no idea what other PCs there will be, I don't know how many PCs there will be or what roles they will be, etc. My stats will probably be rolled, but to make things easy, assume a standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) to use as a placemarker. I believe we could start as high as 7th, so I'm looking at how I go from 1st to 7th for all characters.

1) Illumian (from Races of Destiny) w/hoon and krau, LG, Cleric (of Wee Jas) 3 (Domains: Death, Magic)/Wizard 3/Geomancer 1 (from Complete Arcane). Feats: 1st - Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil, 3rd - Enhanced Power Sigils, 6th - Undying Fate (all Feats from Races of Destiny).

In typical Illumian fashion, my character would be a well-studied and flexible member of society. She would combine arcane and divine, life and death.

(Why LG? Because I spontaneously cast cure spells, which LN Clerics of Wee Jas cannot.)

With the sigils, I would be casting 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells as if I was a 7th level caster. Yes, I know that this puts me one to two spell levels behind a dedicated spell caster, but this gives me a lot of versatility, and as I go up levels, this will become more pronounced. The only issue is, there are only ten levels to geomancer, so what next? Mystic Theurge? I thought about it, and if necessary, I guess.

(What are people's opinions on the Geomancer? Still too weak? Too powerful? Too weir- nah!! That's impossible!!:smalltongue:)

Also, what are people's opinions on which should be my first feat, Bright Sigil or Subtle Sigil (I'll get the other at 9th?

(Bright Sigil - makes my sigils as bright as a daylight spell for as long as I concentrate on it plus 1 round, takes a standard action to do so.
(Subtle Sigil - makes my sigils disappear or reappear as a free action (allowing me to pass as a normal human), but I still get the benefits of my sigils - without this feat, it takes a standard action and while they are doused, I lose my benefits) Well, others have commented on the extreme lack of power this has, so I won't bother. Others have commented that Improved Sigil: Krau can help you get into Geomancer earlier, which helps somewhat. Mystic Theurge is much better than Geomancer, because you actually advance both sides of casting.

I really don't think you can get away with playing a good cleric of an evil diety, though. IIRC, there were alignment restrictions based on your diety.


2) Dragonborn (from Races of the Dragon) - I don't know which should be my base race) with Heart[i] aspect, Dragon Shaman 7 (from [i]PHBII). Considered Feats: (From Races of the Dragon): Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings, Entangling Exhalation, Exhaled Barrier; (from Draconomicon: Clinging Breath, Endure Blows (requires Toughness), Enlarge Breath, Heighten Breath, Lingering Breath, Maximize Breath, Quicken Breath, Recover Breath, Shape Breath)

The big questions are - what should be my base race, which dragon is my totem (has to be Good) and what feats should I take?

Thoughts on the race - The Dragon Shaman benefits from Strength (it is a melee-oriented class), Constitution (hit points and increases the DC of my breath weapons), and Charisma (for my ability to heal and remove negative conditions). As a Dragonborn, I already have +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. I was thinking Dwarf for the extra +2 Constitution, but the -2 Charisma hurts. On the other hand, I could go with a Desert Dwarf for an additional +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. An Arctic or Aquatic Dwarf would be just ridiculous (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Dexterity, -2 Charisma) - much better to go with an Earth Dwarf (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma). Also, I don't want a race with a level adjustment to it - I might be starting at first level, after all.

Thoughts on the Feats - since I intend on using breath weapon a lot, the best Feat at 1st level is probably Recover Breath (dropping the average from 2.5 rounds to 1.75 rounds). This eliminates Dragon Tail and Dragon Wings. I also think that Endure Blows might be a bit of an issue, as I really am not that interested in getting Toughness for DR 2/-, which would be nice for 3rd level, but only so-so later on - as well as delaying optimizing my breath effectiveness by five levels.

(By the way, what Tier is the Dragon Shaman? Tier 3??)
Rather than Dragon Shaman, have you considered Dragonfire Adept? They can do the whole breath thing, and get metabreath feats to apply to it (like the entangling breath), only are not limited in the number of times they can breathe in combat, which makes them really nifty. I also happen to prefer the mechanics of the Invocation system.


3) This is more a discussion than a character. I thought about playing a Duskblade. I really did. But the more I thought about it, the more it didn't seem to fit. Don't get me wrong, full BAB with arcane spell-casting in armor is nice, like the paladin only with an offensive twist to it. But first of all, it doesn't make it clear what spell list the Duskblade gets (I am assuming that it is everything that is on the wizard/sorcerer list, but probably not). Secondly, I can't find a prestige class that really fits. Sure, there are a few that give full BAB and advance the spell-casting - but they do that every other level. Duskblade already advances pretty slowly on the spells, so this feels not only like I am gimping my character, but... it just doesn't feel right. There are a lot of Prestige Classes that do a good job of supporting the paladin class and making it feel like what happens is a natural extension of the direction that someone who is on the path of the paladin would take. For the Duskblade... not so much. The best PrC for Duskblade is... more Duskblade. It's a class that does well on it's own and doesn't need boosting. It's a solid class all by itself.


4) For this character... well... I think it is best if I illustrate this one with an imagined exchange between my character (a one-eyed half-orc wielding a shortspear) and a particularly religious orc.

My PC: Pardon me, I think there might be a misunderstanding here. Perhaps you would be so kind as to illuminate me about your religion.
Orc: Uh? You want learn orc god?
My PC: Why, yes, yes I do.
Orc: Orc god powerful!
My PC: My god is powerful too.
Orc: Orc god great war god!
My PC: My god is great war god too!
Orc: Orc god has one eye!
My PC: My god has one eye too!
Orc: Orc god use mighty spear in battle against enemies!
My PC: My god uses a mighty spear in battle against his enemies!
Orc: All hail Gruumsh!!!
My PC: All hail Odin!!! *smites orc*

So... yeah. Thoughts on that one?

I second Stormlord. Even uses a spear. If you want, you can even go Warpriest after you get done with Stormlord to pick up some handy party abilities (Haste? Mass Heal? As SLA's? Yes, please!)

Umael
2009-06-23, 09:09 AM
A quick reply in regards to #1 (the Illumian):

For those of you who criticized my choice as being weak - you didn't get it, where "it" in this case is the fact that I was already aware that 2nd level Wizard spells & 2nd level Cleric spells are weaker than 4th level either one. "It" is the fact that I already am aware of the mechanics and am choosing fluff instead.

HOWEVER - for those of you who pointed out that Geomancer only advances one spellcasting class... yeah. Okay, I missed that.

(Also, not sure about Improved Sigil (Krau) working that way. Need to look it up.)

(Oh, any Shneekey? Wee Jas is LN. Her neutral clerics rebuke and spontaneously inflict, but she can have LG clerics.)

Umael
2009-06-24, 01:53 AM
Okay, I have more time.

1) Something to add to the Illumian.

The Mystic Theurge Class requirement includes the ability to "cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". Improved Sigil (Krau) lets me pick a number of spells equal to the number of power sigils I have (i.e., two) as if they were one level higher. Since the requirement is for plural for both divine and arcane, I would have to cast at least four 2nd-level spells, two of which are arcane, two of which are divine. If this is indeed the case, I would have to be either Wizard 3/Cleric 1 (putting both my heighten spells on divine spells) or Wizard 1/Cleric 3 (putting both my heighten spells on arcane spells).

If my interpretation is incorrect, then I can get away with Wizard 2/Cleric 1 or Cleric 2/Wizard 1 - which leads to the question of which one should I do.

(Also, Arcane Hierophant won't work too well - need BAB +4. I could go Mystic Theurge for several levels and THEN change over.)

2) Dragonborn Dragon Shaman - Water Orcs, Water Halflings, and all aquatic races - forget it! None of those are amphibian, and if we go outside water for too long, my character is in for a lot of trouble. Mongrelfolk - ouch. That -4 to Charisma is nasty, and -2 to Intelligence doesn't help either.

Endure Blows is a goner - small loss, really. Mineral Warrior - I'm not sure if the DM would allow me, and it is +1 LA, so that would make the PC unavailable as a 1st level character. Assuming that I get 3 Feats (up to 7th level PC), I would say that Recover Breath is absolutely necessary. Entangling Exhalation, good, good, and then Combat Reflexes - if I have the Dexterity for it - without a decent Dexterity, it could be just a wasted Feat. Don't have Complete Scoundrel or Drow of the Underdark (*sigh*), and Awaken Frightful Presence requires the dragon type. By 6th level, my Breath Weapon is 3d6 (for Dragon Shaman) and 3d8 (for Dragonborn) - powerful enough that I can see about using one of the metabreath feats - most likely Heightened Breath, Maximized Breath, or Quickened Breath. It would be something that I would be using only in case of emergencies (which makes me think that Maximized Breath would be the best to get).

I found Dragonfire Adept - I do not have the book, but I found it online. Um... well, maybe. I was thinking about playing a Dragon Shaman, but... wow, these guys are tempting!

3) Duskblade - Someone mentioned that they weren't sure what I was getting at when I was complaining about the Duskblade, so let me go back a step.

The character concepts I play are character concepts I like, not just optimized powerhouses. Yes, I enjoy getting the most out of my characters (which is why I want my Illumian to become a Mystic Theurge as soon as possible (since Geomancer is out)), but there has to be something interesting about the character that makes playing that character memorable. Using my Illumian again, I have someone who is both arcane and divine, fascinated with life and death.

Perhaps more immediate is the fact that I have NEVER played an Illumian or a Mystic Theurge, never played a 3.5 Dragonborn or a Dragon Shaman, never played a Duskblade, and so on. I get to play 3.5 campaigns rarely these days, so I want my character to be memorable, both in fluff and in mechanics.

(For the record, I have played memorable core class/race combos, but now I just want to try something different - I spend all this money on those blasted books, I want to use them!)

When I looked at the Duskblade, it seemed like it was missing something. I'm still not warmed to it, but I'm looking at it more closely. I probably won't play one for this upcoming game (just because the other ideas are more present in my mind), but I'm not going to rule it out for the future.

4) Half-orc devotee to Odin - First of all, Stormlord (which is in Complete Divine, not Races of the Wild, as I was originally told) requires Talos as the Patron Deity. The equivalent Nordic deity would be Thor - not Odin.

The Warpriest is a good idea though. Let me see how I can get there by 7th level...

Requirements: +5 BAB; Diplomacy 8 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks; Combat Casting, cast at least one divine spell from Destruction, Protection, Strength or War; ability to turn or rebuke undead

1 - Half-orc Paragon 1
2 - Human Paragon 1 (gets Sense Motive & Diplomacy as always class skills)
3-6 - Paladin 4 (w/ Half-Orc Paladin Racial Substitution)

Any suggestions, alternative routes?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-24, 04:34 AM
Okay, I have more time.

1) Something to add to the Illumian.

The Mystic Theurge Class requirement includes the ability to "cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". Improved Sigil (Krau) lets me pick a number of spells equal to the number of power sigils I have (i.e., two) as if they were one level higher. Since the requirement is for plural for both divine and arcane, I would have to cast at least four 2nd-level spells, two of which are arcane, two of which are divine. If this is indeed the case, I would have to be either Wizard 3/Cleric 1 (putting both my heighten spells on divine spells) or Wizard 1/Cleric 3 (putting both my heighten spells on arcane spells).

If my interpretation is incorrect, then I can get away with Wizard 2/Cleric 1 or Cleric 2/Wizard 1 - which leads to the question of which one should I do.

(Also, Arcane Hierophant won't work too well - need BAB +4. I could go Mystic Theurge for several levels and THEN change over.)

A Sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell, but he can cast it multiple times. If you have two apples, you refer to them in the plural sense, despite the fact that they're both the same thing. Likewise, even if a character is only able to cast one 2nd level spell, casting it multiple times would be casting multiple 2nd level spells. Even if you only get to cast it once per day, over the course of two days you can cast two second level spells.

I'd probably go Wizard 2/ Cleric 1. Use your Cleric spells to buff and fix yourself and your allies, and use your Wizard spells to be Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002). I would even recommend replacing Cleric with Archivist (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), since then all of your spells would be based on Intelligence. If you would be tempted to boost Wisdom to get more Archivist bonus spells, just go with Aeshkrau or Uurkrau instead.


2) Dragonborn Dragon Shaman - Water Orcs, Water Halflings, and all aquatic races - forget it! None of those are amphibian, and if we go outside water for too long, my character is in for a lot of trouble. Mongrelfolk - ouch. That -4 to Charisma is nasty, and -2 to Intelligence doesn't help either.

Endure Blows is a goner - small loss, really. Mineral Warrior - I'm not sure if the DM would allow me, and it is +1 LA, so that would make the PC unavailable as a 1st level character. Assuming that I get 3 Feats (up to 7th level PC), I would say that Recover Breath is absolutely necessary. Entangling Exhalation, good, good, and then Combat Reflexes - if I have the Dexterity for it - without a decent Dexterity, it could be just a wasted Feat. Don't have Complete Scoundrel or Drow of the Underdark (*sigh*), and Awaken Frightful Presence requires the dragon type. By 6th level, my Breath Weapon is 3d6 (for Dragon Shaman) and 3d8 (for Dragonborn) - powerful enough that I can see about using one of the metabreath feats - most likely Heightened Breath, Maximized Breath, or Quickened Breath. It would be something that I would be using only in case of emergencies (which makes me think that Maximized Breath would be the best to get).

I found Dragonfire Adept - I do not have the book, but I found it online. Um... well, maybe. I was thinking about playing a Dragon Shaman, but... wow, these guys are tempting!
I'm guessing you didn't even read the Races of Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), because it doesn't even imply that they are aquatic, they have to hold their breath when underwater just like any other race. They have an ancestor with the water elemental subtype, therefore a strong connection to the water element. They don't live underwater, they can't live underwater without special help just like you or I can't live underwater. At least look at the suggestions before you jump to conclusions.

There are two separate feat sections in the Draconomicon, one in Chapter 2 that contains feats for Dragons, and one in Chapter 3 that contains feats for PCs to emulate or use against dragons. Awaken Frightful Presence is a monster feat, Frightful Presence is a PC feat at the top of page 106. If you make your opponents both Shaken and Entangled, they get a -4 penalty to all of their d20 rolls and additional penalties to AC, Reflex saves, and movement. That is a significant set of debuffs, and you can even use an Intimidate check to demoralize an already shaken opponent to make them frightened for a round. Frightened opponents try to flee if possible, and if they're Entangled they'll be moving at half speed and will probably provoke AoOs. Even creatures normally immune to magic such as golems will be damaged and entangled by your breath attack, because as a supernatural effect it ignores spell resistance and magic immunity.

Note that with Dragonfire Adept you can walk around in full plate with a tower shield, taking huge nonproficiency penalties that won't matter at all. At the beginning of the day put Endure Exposure on yourself and all your allies, use whatever other buffing invocations you know, and put your armor on afterward and you won't need to worry about arcane spell failure. Your breath attack is supernatural, so it doesn't have any somatic components like your Invocations do.

Doc Roc
2009-06-24, 08:18 AM
I mean, you could just abuse precocious apprentice to early entry MT, but who would evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr do that?! :: hums innocently ::

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-24, 10:10 AM
2) Dragonborn Dragon Shaman - Water Orcs, Water Halflings, and all aquatic races - forget it! None of those are amphibian, and if we go outside water for too long, my character is in for a lot of trouble. Mongrelfolk - ouch. That -4 to Charisma is nasty, and -2 to Intelligence doesn't help either.

Endure Blows is a goner - small loss, really. Mineral Warrior - I'm not sure if the DM would allow me, and it is +1 LA, so that would make the PC unavailable as a 1st level character. Assuming that I get 3 Feats (up to 7th level PC), I would say that Recover Breath is absolutely necessary. Entangling Exhalation, good, good, and then Combat Reflexes - if I have the Dexterity for it - without a decent Dexterity, it could be just a wasted Feat. Don't have Complete Scoundrel or Drow of the Underdark (*sigh*), and Awaken Frightful Presence requires the dragon type. By 6th level, my Breath Weapon is 3d6 (for Dragon Shaman) and 3d8 (for Dragonborn) - powerful enough that I can see about using one of the metabreath feats - most likely Heightened Breath, Maximized Breath, or Quickened Breath. It would be something that I would be using only in case of emergencies (which makes me think that Maximized Breath would be the best to get).

I found Dragonfire Adept - I do not have the book, but I found it online. Um... well, maybe. I was thinking about playing a Dragon Shaman, but... wow, these guys are tempting! Yea, Dragonfire Adepts are pretty fun. Play like a draconic version of Warlock. Unlimited at-will SLA's are always fun to play with, particularly when they can do battlefield control with some of the metagreath feats.


3) Duskblade - Someone mentioned that they weren't sure what I was getting at when I was complaining about the Duskblade, so let me go back a step.

The character concepts I play are character concepts I like, not just optimized powerhouses. Yes, I enjoy getting the most out of my characters (which is why I want my Illumian to become a Mystic Theurge as soon as possible (since Geomancer is out)), but there has to be something interesting about the character that makes playing that character memorable. Using my Illumian again, I have someone who is both arcane and divine, fascinated with life and death.

Perhaps more immediate is the fact that I have NEVER played an Illumian or a Mystic Theurge, never played a 3.5 Dragonborn or a Dragon Shaman, never played a Duskblade, and so on. I get to play 3.5 campaigns rarely these days, so I want my character to be memorable, both in fluff and in mechanics.

(For the record, I have played memorable core class/race combos, but now I just want to try something different - I spend all this money on those blasted books, I want to use them!)

When I looked at the Duskblade, it seemed like it was missing something. I'm still not warmed to it, but I'm looking at it more closely. I probably won't play one for this upcoming game (just because the other ideas are more present in my mind), but I'm not going to rule it out for the future. It's your character, so it is ultimately up to you. Duskblade is a decent Gish class, but with respect to PrC's... don't. Duskblade is the best PrC for Duskblade.


4) Half-orc devotee to Odin - First of all, Stormlord (which is in Complete Divine, not Races of the Wild, as I was originally told) requires Talos as the Patron Deity. The equivalent Nordic deity would be Thor - not Odin.

The Warpriest is a good idea though. Let me see how I can get there by 7th level...

Requirements: +5 BAB; Diplomacy 8 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks; Combat Casting, cast at least one divine spell from Destruction, Protection, Strength or War; ability to turn or rebuke undead

1 - Half-orc Paragon 1
2 - Human Paragon 1 (gets Sense Motive & Diplomacy as always class skills)
3-6 - Paladin 4 (w/ Half-Orc Paladin Racial Substitution)

Any suggestions, alternative routes?

Diety requirements can be shifted, and it was Odin who was the one who wielded a spear, Thor wielded a hammer.

Interesting build, I think I like it. Warpriest is MUCH better for Paladin than for Cleric, due to the 1/2 casting progression. Half of crap isn't as big a sacrifice as half of your whole class.

Keld Denar
2009-06-24, 12:10 PM
I mean, you could just abuse precocious apprentice to early entry MT, but who would evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr do that?! :: hums innocently ::

Only with Focused Specialist. Illumian is considered a more "RAW" legal path anyway, and just as strong, especially if you want to be a generalist, which isn't a bad thing, since you'll seldom have a shortage of spells per day.

Umael
2009-06-24, 12:31 PM
Super-fast reply:

I tried to comment earlier, but the Internet ate my post. I blame lolcats.

Anyway - first and foremost, thank you everyone who has helped me so far. I appreciate the feedback.

Also, I need to read a bit more carefully. It was Water Races, not Aquatic Races (although I did indeed read both of them) and Frightful Presence not Awaken Frightful Presence. My apologizes for the miscommunication.

Umael
2009-06-29, 11:53 PM
*sigh*

Well, it looks like I might have to come up with a 4th concept, as there seems to be a bit of an interest in most of the other players playing melee types, with one half-cleric (we are looking now at starting at 4th level, with one PC being a centaur of Hel, yes, a NE 2nd level cleric).

Very weak with the cleric (but at least we have one), no arcane, no skill monkey.

Luckily, I have a fourth concept (just re-doing a character I didn't get to play more than once, really).

As a class, I am thinking either Beguiler, or go for a Rogue/arcane caster to prestige into Unseen Seer. I don't want to go Beguiler and then go into Unseen Seer because the Beguiler doesn't get a lot of divination spells (which is where the Unseen Seer excels) and the Beguiler doesn't get Sneak Attack (although it was a little unclear - the Unseen Seer increases the damage of a Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or Sudden Attack by 1d6 every odd level, must pick which one, but doesn't actually say that it grants 1d6, 2d6, etc. Sneak Attack).

As for race, elf, although I have no idea what variants are out there (if there is a book, the Complete Elf or something, I don't have it).

And, suggestions, comments, etc. would be appreciated.

Finally, and very importantly, the character concept. Said elf is... a bit of an abomination. See, the original character concept was a Moon Elf (?) from the Quintessential Elf who developed a... carnivorous taste. Said character liked to capture downed enemies and... well... let's just say that I need presdigitation(sp?) to add flavor, ranks in Profession (Cook), and money set aside for at least one barrel and plenty of salt for preservation. Maybe if I'm lucky, manacles as well...

Now I know there is a Feat that allows you to cast presdigitation, but I don't recall which one, and since it isn't on the Beguiler spell list, I'm going to need it...

Myrmex
2009-06-30, 12:31 AM
Beguiler is a brilliant class. If you have no arcane and no rogue, I would recommend going beguiler. If you need dedicated arcane, and are willing to sacrifice the skill points, use prestige classes to get more spells on your beguiler spell list.

A beguiler with the versatile spellcaster feat qualifies for Rainbow Servant at 5th level, which means you can go beguiler4/rainbow10. You'll need high wisdom to make this build work, but you get 3 domains and all cleric spells as your capstone. Work with your DM to refluff the three domains. You get air, law and good as domains, so anything along those lines should be replaceable. Make sure you can go with text trumps table with the Rainbow Servant, otherwise, don't bother with it.

If you go with gnome as your race, you could go into shadowcraft mage at higher levels, which gives you some incredible arcane utility.

Level six should be a dip in mindbender for 100ft of telepathy, and perhaps mindsight (totally broken and overly abused, I recommend against it). 100ft of telepathy, though, for a scout character, is just too good to pass up.

A level in Sandshaper from Sandstorm nets you two or three new spells known for each spell level. You lose a caster level, which is a bummer, but with versatile spellcaster, you can make it up. Also, as long as you have 15 lbs of sand on your person, the sandshaper gets +1 CL. It's a decent class with a bunch of cool abilities related to sand. If you wanted to play a tricky desert wanderer or merchant from the deep desert or something, it'd fit in well.

Unfortunately, most of this is just rounding out a rather sparse and focused spell list, and at a high cost to your skill monkery. If you went human and picked up able learner, at least you wouldn't have to buy skills cross-class as you leveled.


My favorite Illumian Theurge build is Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus. At level 15 you have 14th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting. With Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you can spend Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you know. You have high enough level spell slots to Quicken your Wizard spells with Augmented Casting. Take Able Learner, since Illumians do have the Human subtype, and you can be the party skillmonkey since you'll have all the right class skills as well as Trapfinding. It even gets some decent weapon proficiencies for when you don't want to spend a spell. With flaws you can even start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM, though if you don't do that you can always pick up the fifth Wizard level after you max out Ultimate Magus to get Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion.

I would second using beguiler and Versatile Spellcaster for any dual casting build. Beguiler/Archivist could work. It wouldn't be real ultimate power, but then, you aren't asking for that, are you :smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 12:41 AM
I don't like Unseen Seer because it hurts all non-divination spellcasting, which kinda makes it suck worse than Arcane Trickster (which is just plain fun... I mean, being able to pinch the bar wench's rear from 30' away so you can blame the barbarian... how much more fun can that get?), so I would certainly suggest Beguiler.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-30, 01:08 AM
*sigh*

Well, it looks like I might have to come up with a 4th concept, as there seems to be a bit of an interest in most of the other players playing melee types, with one half-cleric (we are looking now at starting at 4th level, with one PC being a centaur of Hel, yes, a NE 2nd level cleric).

Very weak with the cleric (but at least we have one), no arcane, no skill monkey.
Centaur has both a +2 LA and four racial hit dice, which are not optional. Centaur is an ECL 6 race, and is not playable below that level unless you're using the Savage Species progression. In either case, a Centaur doesn't get its first class level until ECL 7, when everyone else would be gaining their seventh character level.

If your group is making racial hit dice optional, play an unseelie/devious Gloura (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), and start out at Bard 2 with 9th level spellcasting ability. Get Melodic Casting (CM) and Song of the Heart (ECS), with a Badge of Valor (MIC) and include Inspirational Boost (SC) among your spells known. If your party is mostly melee they'll love you, you'll be able to skillmonkey it up and you'll provide some decent spellcasting. Focus on Charisma and your AC and saves will be amazing, maybe even get Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn if you want to go melee, but I'd just stick to spells and a shortbow, maybe with a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows.

If you want to go for all-out cheese, play a Black Ethergaunt from the Fiend Folio. It's supposed to have 16 HD of Aberration with its +4 LA, but if racial HD are optional, it's a +4 LA race with 17th level Wizard spellcasting, along with a host of other powerful abilities.


Luckily, I have a fourth concept (just re-doing a character I didn't get to play more than once, really).

As a class, I am thinking either Beguiler, or go for a Rogue/arcane caster to prestige into Unseen Seer. I don't want to go Beguiler and then go into Unseen Seer because the Beguiler doesn't get a lot of divination spells (which is where the Unseen Seer excels) and the Beguiler doesn't get Sneak Attack (although it was a little unclear - the Unseen Seer increases the damage of a Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or Sudden Attack by 1d6 every odd level, must pick which one, but doesn't actually say that it grants 1d6, 2d6, etc. Sneak Attack).

As for race, elf, although I have no idea what variants are out there (if there is a book, the Complete Elf or something, I don't have it).

And, suggestions, comments, etc. would be appreciated.

Finally, and very importantly, the character concept. Said elf is... a bit of an abomination. See, the original character concept was a Moon Elf (?) from the Quintessential Elf who developed a... carnivorous taste. Said character liked to capture downed enemies and... well... let's just say that I need presdigitation(sp?) to add flavor, ranks in Profession (Cook), and money set aside for at least one barrel and plenty of salt for preservation. Maybe if I'm lucky, manacles as well...

Now I know there is a Feat that allows you to cast presdigitation, but I don't recall which one, and since it isn't on the Beguiler spell list, I'm going to need it...

The feat Night Haunt in Complete Arcane gives you the ability to use Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation, and Unseen Servant each 1/day as spell-like abilities. There's also the feat Magical Training (PGtF) which gives you a limited arcane spellcasting ability, which can include Prestidigitation as well as any other 0-level spells from the sorcerer/wizard list. If you take levels in Sorcerer or Wizard, it simply gives you three additional 0-level spells/day, though it wouldn't be overpowered to make it work the same way for Beguiler and simply add the selected 0-level spells to your spells known.

Most of the Elf races are from the Core Monster Manual listed under Elf, which includes Grey Elf, probably the best race to use for a Beguiler. A single-classed Beguiler, with one level in Mindbender, is one of the best skillmonkey characters possible. Maybe check out the Aberration Blood line of feats in Lords of Madness, and while you're there check out the feat Mindsight on page 126, which you should get after taking Mindbender 1. Maybe get Aberration Blood: Segmented Eyes (+3 Search), Scavenging Gullet, and Starspawn. The great thing about Beguiler is it doesn't really need any feats at all to be good, though Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon is a must-have since it grants you early access to the next level of spells (by both RAW and RAI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a)), and Mindsight is too good not to take. If you can use flaws you could start with both Aberration Blood and Scavenging Gullet without skipping Versatile Spellcaster, get Mindsight at 6 and Starspawn at 9, and you won't even need Prestidigitation.

Myrmex
2009-06-30, 01:46 AM
If you want to go for all-out cheese, play a Black Ethergaunt from the Fiend Folio. It's supposed to have 16 HD of Aberration with its +4 LA, but if racial HD are optional, it's a +4 LA race with 17th level Wizard spellcasting, along with a host of other powerful abilities.

Um, wow.


and Mindsight is too good not to take.

If you take Mindsight, your DM will hate you, and not only will everything be shielded from you seeing its brains, or not having a brain, none of your spells will work on it. Unless your DM is fully prepared for the utter campaign smashing-ness of Mindsight, don't take it. Every NPC in a disguise now needs mindblank (and arguably that doesn't even protect against mindsight). At level 6. Don't do it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-30, 02:42 AM
If you take Mindsight, your DM will hate you, and not only will everything be shielded from you seeing its brains, or not having a brain, none of your spells will work on it. Unless your DM is fully prepared for the utter campaign smashing-ness of Mindsight, don't take it. Every NPC in a disguise now needs mindblank (and arguably that doesn't even protect against mindsight). At level 6. Don't do it.

Not exactly. You automatically detect creatures and pinpoint their locations as though you had Blindsense. That automatically thwarts attempts to hide within range and LoE of your telepathy. It lets you 'see' the Int score and creature type of everyone within range, which isn't as overpowered as you think. You may see an ordinary-looking person who's in fact an Aberration, but he's just as likely to be an Elan as he is to be an Illithid in disguise. You don't automatically see who someone is, or what race they are, just their creature type. It won't see through an Elf disguised as a Human, because both of those are Humanoids with similar ranges for how intelligent they could be. Its biggest advantage is automatically detecting someone who's hiding or invisible, which anyone with Scent can do anyway though they can't pinpoint it. Seeing creature type and Int score is very situational, and irrelevant most of the time.

Edit: Pointing out the Black Ethergaunt was just an example of how foolish it is to make racial hit dice optional. There's no way any DM would actually let someone play that.