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tenshiakodo
2009-06-23, 01:12 AM
Having read many many discussions on the topic, the consensus on Monks ranges from "they're no good, use ToB instead", "they're pretty decent, under the right circumstances/optimization".

Being a fan of martial arts movies and anime, it occured to me that the Monk is a good archetype for many games, but the Monk class suffers from the game design equivalent of "junk DNA". 3.5 allows for a great deal of customization and optimization, thus classes should be less complex, not more so. Also, there exist some issues with Tome of Battle (which I will discuss later), and I felt it was better to create a more "core-friendly" alternative.

In this spirit, I present:


The Martial Artist (New Base Class)

Alignment: Any. While the training and discipline of a martial arts warrior may seem to be antithetical to non-Lawful philosophy, there are just as many rogueish arrogant martial artists as koan-quoting sages.

Hit Die: d8. Though the Martial Artist is a close-combat specialist, his fighting style is often more about evasion and mobility than taking lethal blows. Eventually the Martial Artist learns how to minimize the damage they receive as well.

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Martial)*, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic/Psionic Device, Use Rope.

Skill Points at 1st level: 6 + (Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at each additional level: 6 + Int modifier.
The martial artist is often suprisingly skilled, although they are more a jack of all trades, not unlike the Bard.

Base Attack Bonus: +1 per level (Full). The martial artist is a highly trained, if specialized warrior, and can strike with lethal precision.

Fort, Ref, Will saves: these all have the best save progression. Martial arts training emphasizes endurance.

Special Abilities-
Here we have the meat of the class. The Martial Artist has a resevoir of inner strength, known as "chi", "qi", or "ki". All living (and some non-living) things possess this trait, but the Martial Artist has developed, through intense training, the ability to generate and channel vast amounts. The Martial Artist has a Chi Reserve equal to his Constitution modifier plus half his level (minimum of 1). For ease of use, a Martial Artist's Reserve should be considered full at the start of each encounter. If the DM prefers, however, they may allow the Reserve to regain one point of Chi per ten minutes of non-combat activity, or one minute of uninterrupted meditation (with a DC 15 Concentration roll).

The Martial Artist can use their Chi Reserve for various special abilities. Using Chi is considered to be a Swift action. Unless otherwise stated, these are Extraordinary abilities.

Stunning Attack: At 1st-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to make a Stunning Attack. This attack must be delivered with an attack of some kind made with their Unarmed Strike or with a martial arts weapon, even if the attack is a melee touch attack (such as a Trip). If the attack hits, the victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus 1/2 the martial artist's Hit Die/level plus their Strength OR Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher) or be Stunned for one round.

Chi Speed: At 4th-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to move a distance equal to their speed, although they provoke attacks of opportunity as normal.

Force Strike: At 7th-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to alter the damage they inflict with their Unarmed Attacks or special martial arts weapon into Force damage, allowing them to overcome damage reduction and hardness or harm incorporeal foes. This benefit lasts for one round.

Weakening Strike: At 10th-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to make a Weakening Strike. This attack must be delivered with an attack of some kind made with their Unarmed Strike or with a martial arts weapon, even if the attack is a melee touch attack (such as a Trip). If the attack hits, the victim suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage.

Chi Jump: At 13th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to Dimension Door (as per the spell, self and touched objects only) with a caster level equal to half their martial artist level. This is a supernatural ability.

Fatal Touch: At 15th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to deliver the Fatal Touch. The martial artist makes a melee touch attack against the foe and rolls 1d6 for every martial artist level they possess. If the total of this roll equals or exceeds the victims hit point total, they are instantly brought to 0 hit points. This is a supernatural, necromantic ability (and thus does not function on foes immune to necromantic effects). If the martial artist's victim survives, they suffer no damage, but are sickened for one minute.

Empty Body: At 17th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to become ethereal (as per the etherealness spell) for a number of rounds equal to their martial artist level. This is a supernatural ability.

Mountain-Felling Strike: At 19th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to deliver a Mountain-Felling Strike with their Unarmed Attack (or a special martial arts weapon). If the attack damages the target, the victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus 1/2 the martial artist's Hit Die/level plus their Strength OR Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher) or suffer an additional 10d6 Force damage from the attack. A construct or object subject to this attack suffers an additional 5d6 Force damage, whether they save or not.

Unarmed Attack [Ex]: the Martial Artist can use virtually any part of their body to make a lethal attack. They are considered to have a Slam attack, even if their race/kind normally lacks such an attack. Though labeled a Slam, and inflicting bludgeoning damage, this attack can be virtually anything allowed (one infamous Dwarven Martial Artist is known for gnawing on his victims!). The damage for this attack is based on the size of the Martial Artist (but see Size Matters Not, below). The Martial Artist may freely choose to inflict non-lethal damage with their Slam attack without taking a -4 penalty. Though they do not need it, Martial Artists are considered to have the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat.

Martial Artists may use their Slam to make iterative attacks as if it were a manufactured weapon, and may do so interchangeably with special martial arts weapons, but not other weapons. Thus, a 6th-level martial artist could attack twice with their Slam, or once with their Slam and once with a Siangham, but not once with a Slam and once with a (insert non-martial arts weapon here). A martial artist may not use two weapon fighting with their Slam, but are allowed to use two weapon fighting with special martial arts weapons.

Magical Enhancement: many martial artists snub the use of weapons. While their Unarmed Strike eventually becomes quite deadly in it's own right, it can quickly pale compared to a Fighter's magical sword. Over the years, martial artists have learned how to imbue their bodies with magical properties, often by covering their bodies with special tattoos or markings. In game terms, a martial artist's Slam can be affected by magic that enhances manufactured weapons (such as Magic Weapon) as well as those that affect natural weapons. Further, by making a DC 20 Craft (Tatooing) check, a martial artist may have their Slam attack enchanted as if it were a masterwork manufactured weapon. The xp costs and requirements do not change, but this allows a martial artist to one day possess a +4 Flaming Shock Slam attack, for example.

Size Matters Not [Ex]: the Martial Artist has an uncanny sense of motion and momentum that allows them to perform feats others would consider to be impossible for someone of their size or mass. Whenever a martial artist is subjected to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check, the martial artist is considered to be one size category larger if doing so would be advantageous to them. Further, they are considered to be one size category larger than normal when making a Bull Rush, determining whether or not they may Grapple with an opponent, performing an Overrun, or Trip. Finally, the Martial Artist increases the damage of their Unarmed Attack as if they were one size category larger.

Martial Defense [Ex]: the Martial Artist may add their Intelligence bonus to their Armor Class and Initiative rolls when wearing no armor, and bearing no more than a light load.

Mobile Defense [Ex]: At 4th-level, the Martial Artist gains Damage Reduction 1/- when wearing no armor, but may add their Intelligence bonus to their Armor Class when wearing Light Armor and bearing no more than a medium load.

At 7th-level, the Martial Artist gains Damage Reduction 2/- when wearing no armor. When wearing Light Armor and bearing no more than a medium load, they may add their Intelligence bonus to their Initiative rolls, and gain Damage Reduction 1/-.

At 10th-level, the Martial Artist gains Damage Reduction 4/- when wearing no armor. When wearing Light Armor and bearing no more than a medium load, they gain Damage Reduction 2/-.

Spell Resistance: At 13th-level, the Martial Artist gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + martial artist level when wearing no armor; the martial artist may freely allow a spell to bypass this defense by making a DC 25 Knowledge (Arcana) check (this takes no action and can be done when it's not the martial artist's turn) but must then suffer the consequences, if any. Improve Damage reduction by 1 point when unarmored.

At 16th-level, the Martial Artist's Spell Resistance applies when wearing light armor and bearing up to a medium load; if unarmored, however, the martial artist may add their Intelligence bonus to their Spell Resistance. Improve Damage reduction by 1 point.

At 19th-level, the Martial Artist may add their Intelligence bonus to their Spell Resistance when wearing light armor and bearing up to a medium load. Improve damage reduction by 1 point, improve damage reduction when wearing no armor by an additional point.

Damage Bonus [Ex]: the Martial Artist inflicts bonus damage with their Unarmed Attack or a martial arts weapon. Beginning at 2nd-level, the martial artist increases the damage dealt with these attacks by an amount equal to half their martial artist level (so a 12th-level martial artist inflicts +6 damage with a siangham, for example).

Bonus Feat [Ex]: at 3rd-level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the martial artist receives a bonus Feat. If the Feat has an ability score requirement, the martial artist may ignore it.

Increased Speed [Ex]: at 6th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by 10'. This is cumulative with other speed enhancing effects.

Size Matters Not (Improved) [Ex]: at 8th-level, this ability allows the Martial Artist to consider themselves to be two size categories larger than normal for the stated purposes.

Increased Speed (Improved) [Ex]: at 9th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Swiftness of the Zephyr [Ex]: at 10th-level, the martial artist can make an additional swift action each turn.

Increased Speed (Greater) [Ex]: at 12th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Size Matters Not (Greater) [Ex]: at 14th-level, this ability allows the Martial Artist to consider themselves to be three size categories larger than normal for the stated purposes.

Increased Speed (Superior) [Ex]: at 15th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Timeless Body [Ex]: at 17th-level, the martial artist is not subject to ability score penalties due to age, and their maximum lifespan is increased by 50%. Further, the martial artist is immune to poison and disease, including magical versions of such.

Increased Speed (Master) [Ex]: at 18th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Master of Life and Death [Ex]: at 20th-level, the martial artist becomes an Outsider [Native] (this does not affect proficiencies or skills). They no longer have a maximum lifespan, and are, barring violence, immortals. In addition to their innate damage reduction, they reduce the damage of any type, including ability damage, by 4 additional points.

Other Class Features-

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes, natural attacks, and all simple weapons. They are also proficient with all simple and martial 'martial arts weapons' (this is a campaign decision, DM's must decide what weapons are considered martial arts weapons. I'm flat-out assuming that core martial arts weapons such as the siangham are not exotic. The 'martial arts' tag for weapons is not a balance issue, but a flavor one; I don't think allowing a martial artist to apply his Chi powers or damage bonus to a greatsword to be "unbalanced", but it may not fit the DM's views of what a martial artist does).

Martial artists are proficient with light armor, but not shields. Really, the martial artist could wear any kind of armor, or use a shield, and the only penalty is the loss of their Defense Bonus. The idea here is not to overly penalize a player for wanting to play someone who wants to melee it up like Bruce Lee, but still allow a choice for players who feel armor is a good idea.

Ok, first of all, this ended up a little more complicated than I wanted, and may push the boundaries of what would be considered "core-

friendly" as the martial artist has special abilities, feats comparable to a fighter, and damage reduction that puts the Barbarian to shame.

I appreciate feedback, and will gladly explain my decisions; only a few were made arbitrarily.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 08:35 AM
Since I really hate walls-o'-text, I've fixed up the spacing and templated it for you; just copy and paste what's in the spoiler block.


The Martial Artist (New Base Class)

Alignment: Any. While the training and discipline of a martial arts warrior may seem to be antithetical to non-Lawful philosophy, there are just as many rogueish arrogant martial artists as koan-quoting sages.

Hit Die: d8. Though the Martial Artist is a close-combat specialist, his fighting style is often more about evasion and mobility than taking lethal blows. Eventually the Martial Artist learns how to minimize the damage they receive as well.

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Martial)*, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic/Psionic Device, Use Rope.

Skill Points at 1st level: 6 + (Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at each additional level: 6 + Int modifier.
The martial artist is often suprisingly skilled, although they are more a jack of all trades, not unlike the Bard.

Base Attack Bonus: +1 per level (Full). The martial artist is a highly trained, if specialized warrior, and can strike with lethal precision.

Fort, Ref, Will saves: these all have the best save progression. Martial arts training emphasizes endurance.

Special Abilities-
Here we have the meat of the class. The Martial Artist has a resevoir of inner strength, known as "chi", "qi", or "ki". All living (and some non-living) things possess this trait, but the Martial Artist has developed, through intense training, the ability to generate and channel vast amounts. The Martial Artist has a Chi Reserve equal to his Constitution modifier plus half his level (minimum of 1). For ease of use, a Martial Artist's Reserve should be considered full at the start of each encounter. If the DM prefers, however, they may allow the Reserve to regain one point of Chi per ten minutes of non-combat activity, or one minute of uninterrupted meditation (with a DC 15 Concentration roll).

The Martial Artist can use their Chi Reserve for various special abilities. Using Chi is considered to be a Swift action. Unless otherwise stated, these are Extraordinary abilities.

Stunning Attack: At 1st-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to make a Stunning Attack. This attack must be delivered with an attack of some kind made with their Unarmed Strike or with a martial arts weapon, even if the attack is a melee touch attack (such as a Trip). If the attack hits, the victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus 1/2 the martial artist's Hit Die/level plus their Strength OR Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher) or be Stunned for one round.

Chi Speed: At 4th-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to move a distance equal to their speed, although they provoke attacks of opportunity as normal.

Force Strike: At 7th-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to alter the damage they inflict with their Unarmed Attacks or special martial arts weapon into Force damage, allowing them to overcome damage reduction and hardness or harm incorporeal foes. This benefit lasts for one round.

Weakening Strike: At 10th-level, the martial artist may expend a point of Chi to make a Weakening Strike. This attack must be delivered with an attack of some kind made with their Unarmed Strike or with a martial arts weapon, even if the attack is a melee touch attack (such as a Trip). If the attack hits, the victim suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage.

Chi Jump: At 13th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to Dimension Door (as per the spell, self and touched objects only) with a caster level equal to half their martial artist level. This is a supernatural ability.

Fatal Touch: At 15th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to deliver the Fatal Touch. The martial artist makes a melee touch attack against the foe and rolls 1d6 for every martial artist level they possess. If the total of this roll equals or exceeds the victims hit point total, they are instantly brought to 0 hit points. This is a supernatural, necromantic ability (and thus does not function on foes immune to necromantic effects). If the martial artist's victim survives, they suffer no damage, but are sickened for one minute.

Empty Body: At 17th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to become ethereal (as per the etherealness spell) for a number of rounds equal to their martial artist level. This is a supernatural ability.

Mountain-Felling Strike: At 19th-level, the martial artist may expend two points of Chi to deliver a Mountain-Felling Strike with their Unarmed Attack (or a special martial arts weapon). If the attack damages the target, the victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus 1/2 the martial artist's Hit Die/level plus their Strength OR Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher) or suffer an additional 10d6 Force damage from the attack. A construct or object subject to this attack suffers an additional 5d6 Force damage, whether they save or not.

Unarmed Attack [Ex]: the Martial Artist can use virtually any part of their body to make a lethal attack. They are considered to have a Slam attack, even if their race/kind normally lacks such an attack. Though labeled a Slam, and inflicting bludgeoning damage, this attack can be virtually anything allowed (one infamous Dwarven Martial Artist is known for gnawing on his victims!). The damage for this attack is based on the size of the Martial Artist (but see Size Matters Not, below). The Martial Artist may freely choose to inflict non-lethal damage with their Slam attack without taking a -4 penalty. Though they do not need it, Martial Artists are considered to have the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat.

Magical Enhancement: many martial artists snub the use of weapons. While their Unarmed Strike eventually becomes quite deadly in it's own right, it can quickly pale compared to a Fighter's magical sword. Over the years, martial artists have learned how to imbue their bodies with magical properties, often by covering their bodies with special tattoos or markings. In game terms, a martial artist's Slam can be affected by magic that enhances manufactured weapons (such as Magic Weapon) as well as those that affect natural weapons. Further, by making a DC 20 Craft (Tatooing) check, a martial artist may have their Slam attack enchanted as if it were a masterwork manufactured weapon. The xp costs and requirements do not change, but this allows a martial artist to one day possess a +4 Flaming Shock Slam attack, for example.

Size Matters Not [Ex]: the Martial Artist has an uncanny sense of motion and momentum that allows them to perform feats others would consider to be impossible for someone of their size or mass. Whenever a martial artist is subjected to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check, the martial artist is considered to be one size category larger if doing so would be advantageous to them. Further, they are considered to be one size category larger than normal when making a Bull Rush, determining whether or not they may Grapple with an opponent, performing an Overrun, or Trip. Finally, the Martial Artist increases the damage of their Unarmed Attack as if they were one size category larger.

Martial Defense [Ex]: the Martial Artist may add their Intelligence bonus to their Armor Class and Initiative rolls when wearing no armor, and bearing no more than a light load.

Mobile Defense [Ex]: At 4th-level, the Martial Artist gains Damage Reduction 1/- when wearing no armor, but may add their Intelligence bonus to their Armor Class when wearing Light Armor and bearing no more than a medium load.

At 7th-level, the Martial Artist gains Damage Reduction 2/- when wearing no armor. When wearing Light Armor and bearing no more than a medium load, they may add their Intelligence bonus to their Initiative rolls, and gain Damage Reduction 1/-.

At 10th-level, the Martial Artist gains Damage Reduction 4/- when wearing no armor. When wearing Light Armor and bearing no more than a medium load, they gain Damage Reduction 2/-.

Spell Resistance: At 13th-level, the Martial Artist gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + martial artist level when wearing no armor; the martial artist may freely allow a spell to bypass this defense by making a DC 25 Knowledge (Arcana) check (this takes no action and can be done when it's not the martial artist's turn) but must then suffer the consequences, if any. Improve Damage reduction by 1 point when unarmored.

At 16th-level, the Martial Artist's Spell Resistance applies when wearing light armor and bearing up to a medium load; if unarmored, however, the martial artist may add their Intelligence bonus to their Spell Resistance. Improve Damage reduction by 1 point.

At 19th-level, the Martial Artist may add their Intelligence bonus to their Spell Resistance when wearing light armor and bearing up to a medium load. Improve damage reduction by 1 point, improve damage reduction when wearing no armor by an additional point.

Damage Bonus [Ex]: the Martial Artist inflicts bonus damage with their Unarmed Attack or a martial arts weapon. Beginning at 2nd-level, the martial artist increases the damage dealt with these attacks by an amount equal to half their martial artist level (so a 12th-level martial artist inflicts +6 damage with a siangham, for example).

Bonus Feat [Ex]: at 3rd-level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the martial artist receives a bonus Feat. If the Feat has an ability score requirement, the martial artist may ignore it.

Increased Speed [Ex]: at 6th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by 10'. This is cumulative with other speed enhancing effects.

Size Matters Not (Improved) [Ex]: at 8th-level, this ability allows the Martial Artist to consider themselves to be two size categories larger than normal for the stated purposes.

Increased Speed (Improved) [Ex]: at 9th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Swiftness of the Zephyr [Ex]: at 10th-level, the martial artist can make an additional swift action each turn.

Increased Speed (Greater) [Ex]: at 12th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Size Matters Not (Greater) [Ex]: at 14th-level, this ability allows the Martial Artist to consider themselves to be three size categories larger than normal for the stated purposes.

Increased Speed (Superior) [Ex]: at 15th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Timeless Body [Ex]: at 17th-level, the martial artist is not subject to ability score penalties due to age, and their maximum lifespan is increased by 50%. Further, the martial artist is immune to poison and disease, including magical versions of such.

Increased Speed (Master) [Ex]: at 18th-level, the martial artist's base speed increases by another 10'.

Master of Life and Death [Ex]: at 20th-level, the martial artist becomes an Outsider [Native] (this does not affect proficiencies or skills). They no longer have a maximum lifespan, and are, barring violence, immortals. In addition to their innate damage reduction, they reduce the damage of any type, including ability damage, by 4 additional points.

Other Class Features-

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes, natural attacks, and all simple weapons. They are also proficient with all simple and martial 'martial arts weapons' (this is a campaign decision, DM's must decide what weapons are considered martial arts weapons. I'm flat-out assuming that core martial arts weapons such as the siangham are not exotic. The 'martial arts' tag for weapons is not a balance issue, but a flavor one; I don't think allowing a martial artist to apply his Chi powers or damage bonus to a greatsword to be "unbalanced", but it may not fit the DM's views of what a martial artist does).

Martial artists are proficient with light armor, but not shields. Really, the martial artist could wear any kind of armor, or use a shield, and the only penalty is the loss of their Defense Bonus. The idea here is not to overly penalize a player for wanting to play someone who wants to melee it up like Bruce Lee, but still allow a choice for players who feel armor is a good idea.

For now, it looks good, but I'll read it more closely and critique when I have some time later.

tenshiakodo
2009-06-23, 09:17 AM
Much appreciated, thank you.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 10:24 AM
(By the way, if you quote my post you can copy the formatting code as well.)

Okay, critique time. If I don't mention something, it's fine as-is.

--Time for recharging the chi reserve varies too wildly. A 20th level monk either recharges all of his 14+ chi at the beginning of an encounter for free, or has to spend a quarter-hour in meditation, based on which rule is chosen. It doesn't really matter at lower levels, but towards mid-game it's a drastic difference. I'd have it restore 1 Chi when resting or [Wis mod] Chi when meditating, and remove the option for auto-recovery before encounters.

--Unarmed attack shouldn't make their unarmed strikes count as a slam attack--natural attacks don't grant iterative attacks. It should probably be phrased as "the martial artist's unarmed strikes can be counted as unarmed strikes or a slam attack for the purposes of prerequisites, spells, etc., whichever is more beneficial."

--Thank you, thank you, thank you for letting the martial artist lower his SR whenever he wants to let buffs through. Giving SR to a class just doesn't work otherwise. However, you probably need to increase the SR; enemies of his level only need to roll a 10 or higher if they have the same HD he does, and any foe with Arcane Mastery can easily do that. 15+level or even higher would be better.

--The bonus feats should come from a specific list, maybe any monk bonus feats and the fighter feat list? As it is now, a divine caster focusing on melee could dip a few levels to get all the Wisdom-based bonuses and a metamagic feat. Ridiculous example, but you get the idea.

tenshiakodo
2009-06-23, 10:38 AM
Ah...oops. I knew I forgot something. Yes, the Feats are meant to come from a list. The problem was deciding WHICH Feats should be on the list. Even the Fighter's exhaustive list leaves out some combat-related stunts he'd be ideal at.

That Slam attacks can't be used in iteratives is a boneheaded mistake. I had forgotten that completely. I was trying to make things simpler, and instead, I made them even more complex. The problem is, the diffference between a Slam and an Unarmed Strike sounds like it should be pretty academic, but the rules treat both very differently. Really, I think the problem is how they decided to handle "unarmed strikes" in general. I'll have to think about how to word this better, but I vastly prefer giving martial artists a Natural weapon with perks over the current mish-mash.

As for the SR, the Spell Resistance spell grants SR of 12+caster level.

The Monk in core gets SR 2 points lower than this; I felt that by offering the martial artist the ability to add a stat mod to this would be balanced against the spell. The stunt to lower SR is, as you said, vital, I wish I didn't have to make the fix so gimmicky, but the designers obviously didn't think this through.

The Monk, like most melee, needs to have buffs. In fact, IMO, he has a higher degree of synergy with buffing strategies than most other melee characters. His SR unfortunately makes buffing him in combat harder, and that's Just Not Good.

As for the Chi reserve, yes, it is slow, and I'll have to think about it. Obviously, I would never track the expenditure of Chi outside of combat unless somehow the players got out of hand, like saying "Ok, the martial artist decides to use Mountain Felling Strike to burrow us out an extensive subterranean fortress".

Which they could do even with tracking the points, but it would take longer, at least, lol.

Ultimately, this fix is a step in the right direction, but I feel what's needed is not only an expansion of the Monk's ki power, but a larger list of Feats that draw on that power for cool stunts. If you replaced most of the Monk's special abilities with "bonus Ki feat" and let them choose from a wide list, I think the class would be much more enjoyable.

EDIT: fixed the Slam problem, but still hate the excessive wording. Must be a simpler way to do this, but tired now. Work later. : )

AzazelSephiroth
2009-06-23, 11:06 AM
I like it. But I do have a few Qs.
1- why change the WIS to AC and abilities for INT?
I have always considered Monks and Spiritual warrior like them to be more of innate or "common sense" knowledge types vs. the learned and scholary ones.
2-I think that giving them 6 skill points per level, plus three good saves, plus the fighter's BAB may be a bit much... especially since the monk will use tumble, jump and some other skills alot more than a fighter or similar character. Maybe keep the attack bonus of the original monk but still increase skills would be fine. I also agree with the save progresion- Monks are supremely healthy.
3- Finally I love the DR but I think that an extra +4 at 20th level is pushing it as he already adds his int bonus at that point and a set 5/-
Other than that I like it- maybe give a weaker flurry ability if you change the attack bonus. I am not sure my DM would allow it but, I may let my players choose this next time we play.:smallsmile:

tenshiakodo
2009-06-23, 11:27 AM
I like it. But I do have a few Qs.
1- why change the WIS to AC and abilities for INT?
I have always considered Monks and Spiritual warrior like them to be more of innate or "common sense" knowledge types vs. the learned and scholary ones.

I gave this some thought, because you're right, the enlightened martial artist is a valid archetype. Unfortunately, so is the arrogant kung fu genius who could give a toss about philosophy and all that spiritual crap. I feel that an intelligent fighter would be quicker to adapt to any situation they are in, and better able to put their skills to the test.

In the end, it came down to which attribute would favor the character more for investing in. The Monk gains AC and DC's from his wisdom, but the only other tangible benefit is higher Will saves and good notice checks. With intelligence as a priority, the martial artist gains more skill points, which I think benefits them more.

2-I think that giving them 6 skill points per level, plus three good saves, plus the fighter's BAB may be a bit much... especially since the monk will use tumble, jump and some other skills alot more than a fighter or similar character. Maybe keep the attack bonus of the original monk but still increase skills would be fine. I also agree with the save progresion- Monks are supremely healthy.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but remember the Ranger gets both as well. I was using the Ranger as my example of where the martial artist should be; a strong fighter that uses their skills to suceed where others fail. With the Int-focus the martial artist has, you could balance this by going down to 4 points per level, if you felt the class has a few too many abilities.

3- Finally I love the DR but I think that an extra +4 at 20th level is pushing it as he already adds his int bonus at that point and a set 5/-[/QUOTE]

This was a style decision. I liked the idea of, instead of giving the martial artist a bloated hit die, simply reducing the damage they take in combat to get to about the same result. This of course meant I needed more DR than the Barbarian, who has that AND a bloated hit die. I also improved the defenses of a martial artist who chose to wear no armor, to give players a choice on how they wanted to roll and not feel bad for going one way over another.

As for level 20, well...IMO, level 20 is where you just go nuts with a class and give them all kinds of amazing abilities because, quite honestly, the game stops here. Oh sure you can go epic, but once you do, very few of your pre-epic abilities matter, so...

Other than that I like it- maybe give a weaker flurry ability if you change the attack bonus. I am not sure my DM would allow it but, I may let my players choose this next time we play.:smallsmile:[/QUOTE]

It really needs playtesting to see if it's better than the Monk or not. It could definitely stand to be more polished, if you worked out the progression, there's several levels where the martial artist gets a lot of neat stuff at once.

And there's one or two abilities that are there just because I had a progression going, or wanted to avoid a dead level.

Thanks again for your input!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 12:36 PM
Ah...oops. I knew I forgot something. Yes, the Feats are meant to come from a list. The problem was deciding WHICH Feats should be on the list. Even the Fighter's exhaustive list leaves out some combat-related stunts he'd be ideal at.

As long as you will at some point make a list, then, you should be fine.


As for the SR, the Spell Resistance spell grants SR of 12+caster level.

The Monk in core gets SR 2 points lower than this; I felt that by offering the martial artist the ability to add a stat mod to this would be balanced against the spell. The stunt to lower SR is, as you said, vital, I wish I didn't have to make the fix so gimmicky, but the designers obviously didn't think this through.

Well, let's say the monk has an Int mod of around +4. That's 14+level, which is respectable...but many caster opponents are likely to have Arcane Mastery (so a boss-type of EL+3 would auto-pass it) and some caster level boosters; it's rare to find a spellcaster whose CL and class level are the same. If you make it 15+level, on the other hand, he can have around 19+level. Taking CL boosters into account, that's about a 20% chance give or take to pass it. Yes, it seems harsh, but (A) SR tends to be a joke at higher levels (when it would be most helpful) anyway, and (B) there are plenty of "SR: No" spells casters have, so this doesn't make them invulnerable to casters or anything like that.


As for the Chi reserve, yes, it is slow, and I'll have to think about it. Obviously, I would never track the expenditure of Chi outside of combat unless somehow the players got out of hand, like saying "Ok, the martial artist decides to use Mountain Felling Strike to burrow us out an extensive subterranean fortress".

Which they could do even with tracking the points, but it would take longer, at least, lol.

I'm just thinking of the consistency--if one DM rules one way and one another, and they both track chi out of combat the same way, monks would be awesome in one game, with plenty of endurance, and not as good in others. Plus, it's harder to extend or modify if you don't have a single, moderate-to-fast rate of chi recovery rather than one slow and one fast.

elliott20
2009-06-25, 11:29 AM
yeah definitely need to work out the kinks in the Chi recovery mechanics.

I like this, actually. But it needs more customization potential. If I were you, I would make a lot of the abilities available into optional feats, and then extend those feat trees with extra options for players to pick. So in one school you might get the mountain felling strike. But in another school, you might instead get the meteor rolling punch or some other power.

Makes it more interesting, IMHO.

tenshiakodo
2009-06-25, 03:33 PM
Having a wider list of Chi powers available would be great, I'll have to go over the existing Monk Feats/abilities, and maybe look over the Ninja, who has a similar class feature. There's also of course, martial powers from Bot9S...but see below.

As for Chi recovery, it's really up to the DM. Some DM's are fine with per encounter abilities, others don't care for them. I originally thought to simply triple or quadruple the amount of Chi available, but place a limit on how much can be used in one encounter; unfortunately, that runs into the same problem that psionic characters present if they don't face their requisite 3.5 encounters per diem.

I mentioned that I saw an issue with Bot9S, and I feel this is a good place to go into it. It's not that it's "anime-style" or even that per-encounter powers break the game; neither are true in of themselves.

The problem with the martial adepts is simple; their very existence invalidates the other martial classes. Unless you cast spells, it's very difficult to compete with the martial adepts.

While some may find this acceptable with archetypes such as the Fighter or Paladin, there are others, such as the Ranger, who deserve better treatment. And what of the Rogue or Scout roles? The Bot9S has no answers for them, leaving you forced to either delve into psionics (the psionic rogue is pretty nifty) or use the Factotum. That's not the problem though, the problem is, entire classes must be removed as options because they cannot possibly coexist with the martial adepts.

That's why the martial artist was created; yes, the unarmed swordsage does his job better. However, it's my hope that the martial artist can coexist with the core classes and not outshine them.

At this moment, he may be too strong for that, but until I can playtest his power against other classes, I can only guess. I basically want to see the martial artist as equal to some of the Ranger variants, like the Wild Shape Ranger, who has limited Wild Shaping, minor spellcasting, full BAB, and 6 +skill points per level.

elliott20
2009-06-26, 02:00 AM
I think that is an entirely reasonable thing to try for. The basic martial character classes often just don't fit very well with the casting classes due to power level.

The thing is, the simple existence of a martial artist character already sort of walks into the territory of the other martial characters, specifically, the fighter. From a strict flavor standpoint, the monk was different from a fighter in primarily one way - he was meant to be a spiritual warrior who fought unarmed. (Basically, you're playing a rather specific kungfu subtype)

From the get go, this is already a flawed paradigm as it means you basically have to play a fairly specific type of character. The fact that the monk is not actually GOOD at this role makes it even worse.

The martial artist takes it one more step back, and actually brings it closer to the fighter in spirit in some way.

This is again, why I suggested making a lot of the martial artist powers powered by feats. This way, if we, for example, create a feat that grants a small number of chi points (far smaller than the martial artist, for example), a fighter who really wants these Chi powers can actually just get them by spending feats on them, but won't encroach on the Martial Artist's territory as much since the martial artist will get these powers for free as he advances. By adding some additional feats trees for the chi powers, the martial artist will then have better access to them to customize himself further, but it also doesn't completely bar a fighter getting into it too if he so desires. (of course, the investment will be far more significant)

this way, you're efforts in creating more feats can benefit both the martial artist and the fighter.

Knaight
2009-06-26, 01:48 PM
I mentioned that I saw an issue with Bot9S, and I feel this is a good place to go into it. It's not that it's "anime-style" or even that per-encounter powers break the game; neither are true in of themselves.

Actually Barbarians are just about as powerful as Warblades by default, and highly optimized fighters are a lot better than highly optimized Martial Adepts.

Origomar
2009-06-26, 03:14 PM
They definitely don't need full BAB. that would make fighter/anything else useless. i like the idea of the class but as it stands it's a little overpowered. But i like that you made it worth putting levels in the class instead of like monk where once you hit like level 2 your better off to multiclass to something else.

(also see my monk weapons thread they may compliment your martial artist class well:smallbiggrin:)


Edit: and the ability with size matters not seems a bit overpowered i would make the improved and greater versions of that non existant.

tenshiakodo
2009-06-26, 11:33 PM
Size Matters Not was designed to fend of a specific weakness of grappling and tripping builds (both stunts our martial artists are meant to be good at); monsters get bigger. And bigger. And bigger.

With this ability, the martial artist has better chances when dealing with larger foes. He still lacks the strength larger enemies have, but at least he can negate the size bonus.

True, this does make him very potent when grappling or tripping things which are not so big with large size bonuses, but at high levels there are so many other ways to foil these tricks I can't see the point in worrying about it.

As to the full BAB...it seems that just about any dicussion of a martial character's effectiveness in combat can be summed up with how well they can use Power Attack. With this and other BAB intensive feats in the game, I can't see any reason to say the Monk is worse at hitting stuff than a Warrior NPC.

Feats-basing the Martial Artist would basically make him the Improved Fighter. I'm not against it, but I'm still debating whether or not the class deserves quite that level of versatility. Once you make one class Feat based, you start realizing you can do the same with other classes, and by that point, you might as well start using the "generic" class system in Unearthed Arcana (a fine book and a workable system, btw).

elliott20
2009-06-27, 09:09 AM
well, that's because... the martial artist even from a fluff standpoint basically *IS* the fighter. The martial artist, by it's name alone, suggests that it encapsulates a multitude of martial art forms. The problem with the original monk class was that it initially tried to do too much, and for balance reasons ended up not being good at ANY of it, which resulted in the class becoming virtual useless due to a lack of a niche.

of course, you do make an excellent point... (incidentally, this is why I actually tried one homebrew thread where I basically broke the entire monk class down into feats)

one way you can make sure that you don't push towards generic class with feats is to make a feat trees entry ability be something that is specific to a class. i.e. ki strike ability as a pre-req will pretty much make it an exclusively monk ability. Though, this only makes it harder to do, and not completely make the class stand on it's own just yet.