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2009-06-23, 08:37 AM
Okay

1. Are the numbers listed for item costs in the SRD base or market? For example, my artificer is walking down the street and sees a Ring of Blink

On command, this ring makes the wearer blink, as with the blink spell.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, blink; Price 27,000 gp.

He decides he'll make one for himself. Does it cost him 27,000 gold, or 13,500?

2. Suppose he has the "25% off on crafts" feat. Does that mean he pays 1/3rd of the market price (we start with an item worth 1000 market, divide by 2 for base to get 500, and then take 1/4th off that to get 375, slightly more than 1/3rd), or does it mean he pays 1/4th the market price (50% off+25% off=75% off.)?

3. XP= 1/25th of price. Is that 1/25th market or 1/25th base? Does the 25% discount feat also reduce the XP cost by 25%, since a smaller gold price equals a smaller XP cost?

4. What are some good feats for artificers in general?

5. Can I take the bow-feats such as point-blank shot, precise shot, far shot, shot on the run, etc, and apply them to my wand?

6. The formulas listed in the SRD for determining prices of magic items, such as (here) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

"Single use, spell completion= Spell level1 × caster level × 25 gp"

Does that yield Market price or Crafting cost?

Eldariel
2009-06-23, 09:34 AM
Okay

1. Are the numbers listed for item costs in the SRD base or market? For example, my artificer is walking down the street and sees a Ring of Blink

On command, this ring makes the wearer blink, as with the blink spell.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, blink; Price 27,000 gp.

He decides he'll make one for himself. Does it cost him 27,000 gold, or 13,500?

Crafting it costs always a half + XP costs. Price means exactly what it says: how much it costs to buy. Crafting is always a half of that.

2. Suppose he has the "25% off on crafts" feat. Does that mean he pays 1/3rd of the market price (we start with an item worth 1000 market, divide by 2 for base to get 500, and then take 1/4th off that to get 375, slightly more than 1/3rd), or does it mean he pays 1/4th the market price (50% off+25% off=75% off.)?

The wording is "When determining the raw material cost of an item, reduce base price of item by 25%", so you first reduce 25% from the base price, and then take 50% of the results, or (1-1*.25)*.5 = .375 = 37.5%. So with the Artisan-feats, you'll have to pay 37.5% of the base price of the item when crafting.

3. XP= 1/25th of price. Is that 1/25th market or 1/25th base? Does the 25% discount feat also reduce the XP cost by 25%, since a smaller gold price equals a smaller XP cost?

1/25th Base. And again, reduce base cost by 25% when determining the XP cost, so take 75% of the base price, and take 1/25th of that to arrive at the reduced XP cost. XP cost for a given item with the feat = .75/25 = .03 = 3% its market price (normally it's 1/25 = 4%).

4. What are some good feats for artificers in general?

Metamagic is always good as you can use Metamagic Item-infusion to apply them for free on some items, and you have class features that enable applying them to Spell Trigger (making for very efficient nova blasts that spend a ton of charges on items), and eventually Spell Completion Items (which just require an UMD check making it free bonus).

Other than that, item creation feats (you miss out on Craft Construct and Craft Contingent Spell as a standard Artificer), Wand Mastery and maybe Double Wand Wielder [Complete Arcane] if you plan on Wandifying, etc. It all depends on your focus (you can be offensive or defensive, and you can be offensive in many different ways; with Wands, old-fashioned attacks, scrolled spells or whatever - you can also just build big guys like Golems to do the fighting for you and so on; you have a lot of options as an Artificer).

5. Can I take the bow-feats such as point-blank shot, precise shot, far shot, shot on the run, etc, and apply them to my wand?

Mostly yes, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot work just fine. Far Shot wouldn't work as it IIRC specifically only applies to projectile weapons, which Wands are not. Shot on the Run wouldn't work by RAW; Flyby Attack [MM] would though. Improved Precise Shot would, on the other hand, work just fine. Generally, as you make Touch Attacks with Wands and have medium BAB with probably good Dex though, getting these feats is an overkill as you can just make the checks vs. the improved AC.

6. The formulas listed in the SRD for determining prices of magic items, such as (here) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

"Single use, spell completion= Spell level1 × caster level × 25 gp"

Does that yield Market price or Crafting cost?

Those are market prices. 3*5 = 15. 15*25 = 375 = cost of a Haste-scroll.

Bayar
2009-06-23, 01:37 PM
No, you calculate the XP cost based on the base cost, regardles of gold reduction or time reduction. There are individual feats for each that are independent of one another.

Eldariel
2009-06-23, 01:56 PM
No, you calculate the XP cost based on the base cost, regardles of gold reduction or time reduction. There are individual feats for each that are independent of one another.

This is true, I misread the question there; I thought you were asking about Legendary Artisan. I'll go over question 3 again to avoid confusion:

"The base XP cost is 1/25th base cost. Base cost is unmodified by any feats or factors. Legendary Artisan however specifically applies to XP costs and reduces base cost by 25% when determining the XP cost, so take 75% of the base price, and take 1/25th of that to arrive at the reduced XP cost. XP cost for a given item with the feat = .75/25 = .03 = 3% its market price (normally it's 1/25 = 4%)."

Extraordinary Artisan obviously is the feat that does this for gold.

Gralamin
2009-06-23, 03:18 PM
A bit of a cheat for determining gold cost:
Since the process is price * 0.5 * 0.75, it's the same thing as price * 1 / 2 * 3 / 4, Which if you know fractions is the same thing as price * 3/8. This is just slightly faster since less operations are needed.

Also, remember, the ability to take those feats multiple times (Ie: Extraordinary Artisan x5) have been errata'd away.

2009-06-23, 06:08 PM
Two more questions.

1. Wealth By Level is all fine and good for starting characters. But suppose I'm playing and my 4000 gp magical hat is destroyed; suddenly my wealth is a lot less. Should the DM toss extra treasure in the next encounter so that I can be brought back up to status quo?

2. What if instead of a 4000 gp hat, it was a sack of potions of "Cure Light Wounds" and they were used over time in the usual manner.

3. What if 4000 gold was *supposed* to be my entire wealth by level, but I used it for crafting and so obtained two items worth 4100 gold. Then one of those items is lost. Now, technically, I have just lost a powerful item, as in the above case, but I also still have more wealth than I should.

Quietus
2009-06-23, 06:14 PM
Two more questions.

1. Wealth By Level is all fine and good for starting characters. But suppose I'm playing and my 4000 gp magical hat is destroyed; suddenly my wealth is a lot less. Should the DM toss extra treasure in the next encounter so that I can be brought back up to status quo?

You should be brought back up, but not necessarily in the next encounter. A good general guideline (IMO, at least) is that by the end of the current story arc you should be back up to snuff, unless it was the final fight of the arc that you lost things in, in which case it's extended to the next one.

2. What if instead of a 4000 gp hat, it was a sack of potions of "Cure Light Wounds" and they were used over time in the usual manner.

Then by the time they're used up, you should have gained additional items to keep you roughly at WBL for your current level. It's assumed you're using consumables, WBL should be closer to your current available wealth (including items at full value)

3. What if 4000 gold was *supposed* to be my entire wealth by level, but I used it for crafting and so obtained two items worth 4100 gold. Then one of those items is lost. Now, technically, I have just lost a powerful item, as in the above case, but I also still have more wealth than I should.

You're still at WBL, so you're fine. If you hadn't lost the item, the DM should scale back the items he gives out until you're balanced on WBL again, too.

2009-06-23, 06:42 PM
You're still at WBL, so you're fine. If you hadn't lost the item, the DM should scale back the items he gives out until you're balanced on WBL again, too.

So, if my bonus loot today diminishes future loot, then I'm not actually gaining any money by crafting my own items. In reality, I'm spending XP to get time-traveled loot.

golem1972
2009-06-23, 07:03 PM
Two more questions.

2. What if instead of a 4000 gp hat, it was a sack of potions of "Cure Light Wounds" and they were used over time in the usual manner.

I give my players about 10% of WBL on consumable items to encourage them to use them. I've noticed that expensive items like scrolls, wands, etc. tend to get horded for long periods (until they are pretty much worthless) or just sold and turned into permanent items. We have a gentlemans agreement that the "extra" items get used in some way not sold.

3. What if 4000 gold was *supposed* to be my entire wealth by level, but I used it for crafting and so obtained two items worth 4100 gold. Then one of those items is lost. Now, technically, I have just lost a powerful item, as in the above case, but I also still have more wealth than I should.

Keep track of how much WBL you actually have. If you have bought / collected 1000 gp worth of items, and crafted 2000 gp worth of items (at a cost of 1000 gp) you have 2000 gp WBL, not 3000. Otherwise, why are you spending so much (time, feats, xp) when the party fighter has the same WBL as you with no cost?

Just remember not to abuse this to much, if you're burning half of your WBL between every level up, don't expect a constant stream of cash that noone else in the party gets.

This is part of the reason I started using Patrons in game. Basically, a Patron provides a characters WBL. At each level (or after a big mission), extra loot and personal items can be traded in for more relevant equipment. Example: the Paladin returns to his church (bruised and battered, but triumphant) after clearing out a nest of vampires in an outlying village. He makes his report to his commander who informs him of a new mission involving possible lycanthropes. He heads down to the equipment rooms, and trades in some of his old equipment for some newer hopefully more relevant equipment. He keeps his sword (ancestral item) and armor (not enough gp to upgrade) but puts in a request for an armor upgrade on his return (will hopefully have enough gp next time) he also gets a pouch of potions / oils and a fresh healing wand (free consumables).
Patrons are optional, but I felt it let the players play their characters better without having to try to kill and loot everything that wasn't nailed down (I've played in groups that loot the nails, doors, etc. as well).

Eldariel
2009-06-23, 08:47 PM
So, if my bonus loot today diminishes future loot, then I'm not actually gaining any money by crafting my own items. In reality, I'm spending XP to get time-traveled loot.

If you're crafting your ****, you should effectively increase your WBL by 50%. Any sane DM will see that as you're expending your time and money to make stuff and that's your whole class's shtick, for which you should gain the listed amount of money's worth of items, thus double the normal amount of items.

If something gets broken, my personal stance is "tough it up, you wimp", but then again, I usually don't give a **** as to WBL guidelines anyways. I just feel it's ridiculous to try to follow some arbitrary guideline for "keeping character power in reins" when it's clear that the CR system doesn't match characters with listed WBL... I'd rather give the party what items logically come from the encounter (heck, that's how the game operates on a baseline too; you get a given amount of loot - WBL is just an estimation of how much that loot results in over a period of time assuming a fixed amount of consumable use and even split on the equipment) than go "Oh no, you are over WBL - cue a nightly Thief/Rust Monster!"

2009-06-23, 10:23 PM
1. Wealth By Level is all fine and good for starting characters. But suppose I'm playing and my 4000 gp magical hat is destroyed; suddenly my wealth is a lot less. Should the DM toss extra treasure in the next encounter so that I can be brought back up to status quo?
"Should" in what sense, exactly?

Is the DM morally obligated to provide you with extra treasure? I say "No." If you wind up with the same amount of wealth no matter what you do, your character's actions don't have meaningful long-term consequences. Which, IMO, sucks.

Is it mandated by the rules that you receive replacement treasure? I'm not entirely sure, but I think that the answer here is also "No."

Personally, I recommend using ad-hoc level adjustments to deal with imbalanced characters. Obviously, trying to make things all formulaic didn't work out well, so why not just adjust ECLs (and CRs) to actual power levels, using the written rules as rough guidelines? You know, like pricing magic items.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-23, 10:56 PM
Depends on the game(read:DM). Personally, I think the DM should hand out enough loot to take the entire party from one WBL to the next(plus a bit for a reasonable consumable budget) over a level's worth of encounters. If he destroys loot(Sunder, Dispel+Shatter, MDJ), he should replace the value within a short amount of time, assuming you took reasonable precautions with it(IE you didn't leave your spellbook sitting out on a desk in the Inn room). If you use the loot(wand), it's not his responsibility to replace it. Similarly, if you Craft, you deserve the boost from it.

Quietus
2009-06-24, 04:03 AM
So, if my bonus loot today diminishes future loot, then I'm not actually gaining any money by crafting my own items. In reality, I'm spending XP to get time-traveled loot.

I look at this from two angles, both as a DM. The first; There are two things that can quickly break a game. Spellcasting taken to the (sadly, logical) extreme, and access to far more magical items than you should be able to access. In this sense, yes, you're basically time-travelling loot.

In the other, I tend to assume that a party is going to roughly split their loot evenly. To this effect, I see to it that EVERYONE gets enough to keep them at WBL. This means that if the Fighter gets 1,000 GP, so will the Wizard. The difference? The Wizard's 1,000 GP is worth double because of his feats.

Not that I really use WBL anyway. I give out what seems interesting, and gauge things by gut rather than by book.

All that being said, taking the Crafting feats - even if I'm an ass and don't let them break you past WBL - has a decidedly powerful component in my world. Instant access to the gear you want. In the world I'm fleshing out right now (Vethedar, I use it when I run games but I'm working it out into a pseudo-publishable format at the moment), there ISN'T a lot of high level casters. The highest level caster still alive in the world is a level 13 Wizard. Good luck getting him to craft items for you (though he does have several of the feats). Your average item-maker might be level 5, or level 8-9 if you have connections. It's *difficult* to get good custom items made. Taking the feats yourself is really the only way to get things above caster level 10 without some serious RP action, or me placing it in random treasure. And a good portion of the stuff I drop in my games isn't exactly from the book, either..