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Hyrael
2006-02-27, 11:12 PM
ok, I need opinions please. when i first started playing D&D, I tried my hand at creating new races almost instantly. I had just read Raptor Red by robert t balker, and had dinos on the brain to a very slight degree. these guys have evolved ever since, growing as my understanding of the rules has grown. now, three years later, Im going to do something with these guys. but,before i do, i would like confirmation that, yes, they are balanced.

What need have I for steel, ape? Affixed to my hands; six daggers. On my feet; twin sickles. Lining my jaws; razors. Within my mind; magic, knowledge and cunning. My soul; that of the hunter. I need no weapons. I am one.
-Aliatir of the Delirashat pack, Raptor Hexblade

Unsurpassed hunters, raptors are intelligent nomads that live in small, far-ranging packs. They are known for their loyalty, cunning, and seamless mixing of martial finesse with tactical magic. Proud and sensible, raptors are increasing their contact with the ‘civilized’ races, though they neither desire acceptance nor need it.

Raptor Racial Traits
Raptors combine traits of birds and lizards. Their most reptilian feature is their face, long and wedge-like, with two large oval eyes and a mouth filled with serrated teeth. Round pupils dominate their eyes, with the iris being brightly colored, like a bird’s eye. Example colors are orange, lime green, clear crimson, lemon yellow, and dark blue. Hollow hair-like structures cover Raptor bodies, called psudofeathers. Each individual raptor has an array of true feathers on the back of his head, forming a crest. Some have frilled ruffs or manes, others have ridges, and some have three or four long projecting spines. Feathers also form fans of the tips of their tails, and small ‘wings’ on their forearms. These feathers tend towards white, brown (sometimes nearly red), and black coloring, with patterns similar to modern birds of prey. Though in a sense stooped over, a raptor’s long legs and neck put the eye level of both sexes at about 5’5”, but they can easily rear up to appear taller. Raptors have strong arms with long hands that can flip bak flush with the forearm, each of which has three claws. One of these claws can rotate to oppose the others, forming a thumb. Their feet have two small toe claws and one large, heavy sickle claw, held above the ground. They are often mistaken for animals, until the observer makes eye contact, and then there is do doubt that this is a creature that thinks, and is quite probably as smart as you, if not smarter. When you look at them, they look right back at you.

+2 Dex, -2 con, +2 int Raptors are fast but thin-boned and relatively frail, and have quick, cunning minds.

Speed: 40 ft

Humanoind (avian)

Size: medium

Natural Attacks: Bite (1d6, secondary) and 2 claws (1d6, secondary)

Rake: A raptor who begins its action in a grapple can, while making a full attack, rake with its talons, dealing 1d4 damage per talon (2) plus half of its strength modifier, rounded down. A raptor with the Pounce feat can also perform a rake during a pounce

Weapon Unfamiliarity: Raptors do not gain weapon proficiency through class levels, and must take weapon proficiency feats to be competent with non-natural weapons.

+1 natural Armor [this could be +2]

Master Stalker: raptors have a +2 competence bonus on spot, listen, hide, and move silently checks, and can move at up to 3/4 their speed without taking a penalty on move silently or hide checks.

Among non-raptor humanoids, raptors take a -2 penalty to diplomacy and gather information checks, and the starting attitude of NPCs is one step worse than normal. these penalties do not apply against those who are familiar with raptors or in areas of high integration.

Enhanced Smell: Raptor sense of smell is highly developed, giving a weaker version of the Scent ability. The ability is identical in all respects except the normal detection range is only 10ft, upwind detection has a range of 20ft and downwind detection has a range of 5ft. All attempts at tracking by scent alone suffer a –4 penalty. However It does aid in the use of characters with the track feat granting a +2 bonus when following tracks.

Automatic Language: Draconic
Bonus Languages: Common, Sylvan, Gnoll, Elven

Favored Class: Ranger

+1 LA

Pounce
P: Multiattack, BAB +4
when you charge, you may make a full attack against an opponent at the end of that charge. that opponent must be flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise denided their dexterity bonus to AC. if you charge someone who does not meet the above criteria, you instead make a normal attack.

Exceptional Smell [Racial]
Your sense of smell is far more potent than is normal for your race.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Smell, Track.
Benefit: You gain the Scent ability, as shown in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.

Tooth and Claw Combat Style
this combat style is in addition to Archery and Two Weapon Combat; it is usualy selected by raptors, lizardfolk, and other races that prefer their talons to conventional weaponry. the feats granted by this combat style are as follows:
Combat Style (2nd level): Multiattack
Improved Combat Style (6th level): Pounce
Combat Style Mastery (11th level): Improved Multiattack

Personality: raptors tend to be sensible and practical, though they appreciate a good time as much as humans. they tend to be loyal and uncomplicated (though this is not the same as stupid), and have no truck with angst or foolishness. Raptors have naturaly inquisitive natures and always investigate things they dont understand, rather than run away from, ignore, or destory them. Raptors have an innately predatory mindset that colors their dealing with others. They size up any non-raptor they meet, unconsciously trying to put it into either a "predator" or "prey" category based on its perceived strengths. They defer to those they feel are stronger, but are often condescending or even outright disrespectful to those they believe are weak. However, those that earn their respect are treated as equals, acheiving the mental lable of "fellow Raptor."

Relations: [working on it]

Alignment: Raptors favor imagination to tradition, and are almost always chaotic. As a race, they tend to be chaotic neutral, and there are a more or less equal number of chaotic evil and chaotic good raptors. Evil raptors kill for the fun of it, and often hunt sentient beings for the challenge and novelty. good raptors, on the other claw, stick to animals and evil creatures, and always make a point of killing quickly and cleanly.

Raptor lands: Raptors stick to unspoiled wilderness, and can live in a remarkable variety of climates. when they do have large-scale contact with humans, its usualy through savage tribes or fronteir colonists. in recent years, interspecies contact is increasing, as humans continue to expand into raptor territory, with not always positive results.

Religion: raptors disdain religion, preferring their own unique brand of druidism, that favores an scholarly understanding of the natural world to maintain balance. they have their own theories of natural history and the origin of life, that often puts them at odds with established doctrine. while human religion teaches that living things were created all at once by gods, raptors have written records that describe sex-obsessed apes that figured out how to make artificial claws out of pointy sticks and stones.

Language [im considering giving them their own language, but for now im sticking with draconic. any thoughts?]: raptors speak a dialect of draconic that incorporates hoots, whistles, growls and trills.

Names: raptor names tend to include t's, r's, y's, a's and e's. accomplished individuals sometimes adopt or attract titles that describe themselves (such as the Wanderer, or the Dreamer)
Male names: Thared, Hyrael, Taranesh, Sorenith
Female names: Talia, Ara, Orenel, Byalee

Vambrace of Razor Claws
this item looks like a gloveless gauntlet/wristguard, that provides special abiltites and an enhancement bonus on a nautral claw attack as though it was a magic weapon. a vambrace's cost is determine by the ordinary cost of such an enhancement bonus, x 1.5. thus, a +1 vambrace costs 2400 gp, and a +2 keen, flaming vambrace of razor claws costs 38400 gp.
Faint Transmutation; CL 4rd; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Magic Fang; cost 120% normal magic weapon cost.

• +2 dexterity, : Raptors move with grace, poise, and speed, in a deliberate manner reminiscent of a bird. they are mentaly equal to humans
• Medium: raptors have no penalties associated with size.

• Raptor base land speed is 40 ft

• Humanoid

• Natural Attacks: Raptors have five natural attacks. Claw 1d4 (2), Bite 1d6, and Talon 1d8 (2). Each deals the indicated damage plus strength modifier. Raptors use their claws or talons as primary weapons. A raptor can make one extra attack per round at her highest base attack bonus with her natural weapon, or use all at once as a full attack, but each attack after the first takes a -5 penalty. Raptors do not gain extra natural attacks per round from a high base attack bonus.

Tenative: (Natural Attacks per level: at first level, a raptor can only make a maximum if three attacks per round. this limit increases to 4 at 5th level, and 5 at 10th level)

• No Weapons Proficiency: Raptors, unlike other characters, do not gain weapon proficiencies from their class levels. They can still take feats to gain proficiency with simple, martial, or exotic weapons, however.

• Scent (ex): raptors have the scent special ability.

• Hunt Mastery (ex): raptors have a +2 racial bonus on spot, listen, hide, move silently, and survival checks. In addition, a raptor can move at Ύ their full speed, rather than ½, while using the Hide and move silently skills, without taking a penalty.

• +1 natural armor bonus

• Automatic languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnoll, Elven, Halfling.

• Favored Class: Ranger

• Level Adjustment: +1

Raptor Rangers have acess to an additional combat style,
Tooth and Claw
1st feat: multiattack
2nd feat: Pounce (see below)
3rd feat: Improved Multiattack

Pounce [racial]
P: raptor, Multiattack, BAB +4
when you charge, you may make a full attack at the end of that charge
a raptor fighter may select pounce as one of his fighter bonus featsRaptors have two traits that characterize their class selection: skill and Versitality. raptors are famous for taking partial casting classes like Ranger or Hexblade, and for taking a level or two of Druid or Sorceror before persuing a combat-oriented class, then taking Practiced Spellcaster to boost their caster level.

plus, they always try to put ranks in survival, knowledge(nature) hide, spot listen and move silently. so, raptors tend to take ranger, scout, barbarian, or rogue levels at some point in their careers.

jdrich
2006-02-27, 11:44 PM
With 5 natural attacks, the LA is at least +2, possibly +3.

Splendor
2006-02-27, 11:56 PM
Look in the savage species.

Natural Armor = +1 LA
Scent = +1 LA
2 or more bonus feats= +1 LA
More then 1 natural attack= +1 LA
Unbalanced ability scores= +1 LA


That looks like +5 LA not +1.

Not to mention that the Velociraptor is a monster in the Ebberon main book. Its DnD name is the ClawFoot.

Casualgamer
2006-02-28, 12:07 AM
Yeah, I agree. Need higher LA with that many natural weapon attacks...

Tynan
2006-02-28, 12:12 AM
Yeah, higher LA. Though, something else I noticed the Savage Species guide does... It explains what sort of LA an ability gives, but also seeks to compare it to a core race/class setup for balancing. It took the ogre for an example, and compared the Ogre's racial HD and LA to a human fighter of the same level as the ogre ECL. At first, going off of all the LA stuff the ogre got, the fighter was clearly superior, so it reduced the LA by one, and there was no clear line onto which one was superior.

Everyman
2006-02-28, 03:21 AM
Ah...PEACH. Such a lovely way of analyzing stuff.

Anywho, I have to concur with everyone else. You're granting a great deal of abilities without any real drawbacks. Well, I suppose the case could be made for the "Animal" trait, but that is hardly a balancing factor on its own. In fact, it really makes the race better, since they are then immune to much of what would normally affect them. ("Person" spells, for example).
...
Wait. They never recieve weapon proficiencies. Okay. That's a pretty good balancing factor, but still not enough.

Perhaps you should reconsider some of your options...

Ability scores: Why not give an Int penalty to start evening out the stats? A -2 (or perhaps even a -4) would fit the flavor of a wild character quite well.

Creature type: I know you're going the whole "animal" route, but humaniod (reptilian) would better fit much of the expected rules of the game and less confusing rules wise.

Skill bonuses: The racial bonuses are okay, but granting Knowledge (nature) and survival as permanent class skills as well as the 3/4 movement is just too strong.

Armor bonus: Knock it down by one. A +2 bonus is just too powerful for a LA +1 character.

With these changes, it should better fit the LA +1 that you seem to be aiming for. Of course, I haven't tested this, so some playtesting would be in order.

Zeful
2006-02-28, 01:56 PM
Well it's a nice concept but sence they are smart you could give a +2 to Int instead of Wis and give them racial bonuses to listen, spot, and hide checks. Changing them to Reptillian (Humanoid) would make more sence than animal and keep them from being imune to some low level spells.
That's all I've got for now. It's cool and I may use it.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 04:18 PM
thank you. When I get home this evening, ill post some fluff for those people who wish to use them.

Fist off: ill change their type to humanoid, but they are NOT reptilian. if anything, they should have the (avian) subtype. A. they are covered in feathers, B. they are not cold blooded.

but, i will give them this special quality:
Bestial: for the purposes of detrimental spells that target only animals, raptors count as animals (they are still immune to Awakening and Animal Growth).
or something similar. any thoughts? I want them to be hit by Charm Animal, but not by Awakening.

Natural armor will be reduced to +1. Im keeping their extra class skills, but ill change the thing about movement. with a base land speed of 40, they can still move at 20 ft while stalking.

I will not give them an int penalty, as being smart is part of their whole concept. these guys are not stupid. originaly, I had given them a Int BONUS.

In reference to the previous poster, per haps i will change their mental bonus to inteligence. Im a bit divided on the subject.

Fluff coming soon.

captain_decadence
2006-02-28, 04:54 PM
I think you should give them a -2 charisma. They seem naturally standoffish (no idea how to spell that, sorry) and very alien. Also, being in a nomadic strength based society, they would not be the best of talkers. If I am wrong, let me know, but I don't see raptors as the most convincing of talkers.

WhiteMonkey
2006-02-28, 05:26 PM
Unbalanced ability scores= +1 LA

lol

Yeh, looking at your stats

Str. +0
Dex. +2
Con. +0
Int. +0
Wis. +2
Cha. +0

First thing I thought was, "Yeah... Plusses without minuses = Munchkin."
Only giving a +1 LA was kind of funny too.

I mean you could have thrown in a -2 Charisma, which makes sense since most humanoids would probably have a very tough time with such an alien species... and visa versa.

Maybe something more like.

Str. +0
Dex. +2
Con. +0
Int. +2
Wis. -2
Cha. -2

No weapons makes sense, what about spells with somatic components?

You might kill the +2 armor bonus too and just let them wear barding of the appropriate type for their class.

Even with these changes I'd still think that you're looking at a +2 or +3 LA.

Zeful
2006-02-28, 05:44 PM
They are often mistaken for animals, until the observer makes eye contact, and then there is do doubt that this is a creature that thinks, and is quite probably as smart as you, if not smarter. When you look at them, they look right back at you. Well raptors are smarter than creatures based on your own words. As well as most historical documents (as well as the three Jerassic Park movies) You could also give them there own language based on their skull structure (JP 3 has name and application) so they could speak easily with each other,which any group of recluse individuals wouldn't understand 'civilized' tounges.

Shevaresh
2006-02-28, 05:52 PM
What about making the type Dragon? I know they're somewhat avian-like, but Dragon might make more sense than humanoid, with some added benefits. They are, of course, in no way similar to mankind; I'd assign them at least a -4 to Charisma (or maybe a -2 CHA & -2 to all CHA based skill checks involving people not familiar with their race)

I would change the +2 Wis to +1 INT/+1Wis (or +2 INT/+1 Spot, Listen & Search)

Most lizards/birds are either very large & slow or very small & fast. I'd make them size Small, possibly w/ growth @ certain levels (lvl 1-5 size S; lvl 6-15 size M; lvl 16-20 size L) ... with shifting ground speeds accordingly (Size S:40; SizeM:30; SizeL:20)

You might look up the Saurials of the Realms. THey are (sort-of) similar in nature.

I do like this idea. Though I would give them a few racial HD before giving them class HD (so a 3rd-lvl Raptor-Ranger has 3d12 + 3d8 HD) to balance out the insane LA they'll need (+5 LA & 1HD = Corpse)

I'd also provide the following limits:
-No magical equipment designed to closely fit a non-raptor can be worn (ie no Bracers, Helms, Boots, Armor, Mantle, RING, etc... of any type (though the Raptors might have variations of them that are impossible to find in treasure hoards) ... my justification for the ring being that a talon/claw is significantly differently shaped than a finger (it's sharp & closer to triangular) - and that if a ring was worn the claw/talon would be inneffective in combat.

For reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType

jdrich
2006-02-28, 06:27 PM
Fist off: ill change their type to humanoid, but they are NOT reptilian. if anything, they should have the (avian) subtype. A. they are covered in feathers, B. they are not cold blooded.

If they are covered in feathers, why not just make a race of terrestrial raptorians (from races of the wild?). You could even have a subrace called the penguarians. I would definitely play a penguarian.


but, i will give them this special quality:
Bestial: for the purposes of detrimental spells that target only animals, raptors count as animals (they are still immune to Awakening and Animal Growth).
or something similar. any thoughts? I want them to be hit by Charm Animal, but not by Awakening.

Too easily abusable. They are either animals, or they aren't. Personally I don't think they should be, on account of thier INT.


Natural armor will be reduced to +1. Im keeping their extra class skills, but ill change the thing about movement. with a base land speed of 40, they can still move at 20 ft while stalking.

Racial class skills are a bit imbalanced, and also a bit...off. What if a raptorian is born in the city? I'm sure it's possible. If a raptorian wants to have survival as a class skill, there are plenty of ways of going about it. Also, the list of racial skill bonuses is quite long, and is better than the alertness and stealthy feats together.


I will not give them an int penalty, as being smart is part of their whole concept. these guys are not stupid. originaly, I had given them a Int BONUS.

More reason not to make them animals.


In reference to the previous poster, per haps i will change their mental bonus to inteligence. Im a bit divided on the subject.

Probably not a great idea, given the circumstances.

A suggestion:

• +2 dexterity, -2 charisma: Raptors move with grace, poise, and speed, in a deliberate manner reminiscent of a bird. They posses sensible, level-headed minds, and exhibit keen awareness of their surroundings, yet their mindset is a bit foriegn to most other humanoids, as is their innate connection with their instincts.

• Medium: raptors have no penalties associated with size.

• Raptor base land speed is 40 ft.

• Humanoids: Raptors are affected by spells and abilities that affect humanoids.

• Natural Attacks: Raptors have three natural attacks. Claw 1d4 (2), and a Bite 1d6. The bite attack is the primary natural weapon, while all other natural weapons are secondary. A raptor wielding a two-handed weapon can still attack with its bite as part of a full attack. A raptor with a free hand can still attack with its claw as part of a full attack action.

• Rake (ex): A raptor who begins it action in a grapple can, while making a full attack, rake with its talons, dealing 1d6 damage per talon (2) plus half of its strength modifier, rounded down.

• Avian anatomy: Raptors do not have opposable thumbs. They take a -4 penalty to Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as attacks with all weapons except for the following: punching daggers, shortspears, quarterstaffs, longspears, spears, glaives, sais, bolas, and nets. In addition, any armor or special tools made for use by a raptorian cost twice as much to create.

• Scent (ex): raptors have the scent special ability.

• Stalker (ex): raptors have a +2 racial bonus on Spot, Move Silently, and Survival checks. In addition, a raptor who is running, attacking, or charging only takes a -5 penalty to his Hide and Move Silently checks, instead of -20.

• Weapon familiarity: raptors treat bolas and nets as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons. They always treat sais as simple weapons.

• +1 natural armor bonus

• Automatic languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnoll, Elven, Halfling.

• Favored Class: Ranger

• Level Adjustment: +0

Then you could make raptor ranger replacement levels at 2nd, 6th, and 11th levels.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 06:51 PM
Just being alien does not give someone a charisma penalty.

and it goes without saying that they cant use certain kinds of magic weapons (they can still use rings. has anyone ever seen a bird claw? its like a knobbly human finger with a big sharp nail. you could put a ring on that).

so helmets, boots, and other items are out of the question. and yes, they would need custom armor.

Lets compare these guys to another LA +1 race with no spell like abilities: Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (mmIII)
+2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha
small
speed 30 ft
+3 nat armor
two claws and a bite (1d3)
Chamelion skin (+5 hide when not wearing armor)
Hold Breath
Low Light Vision
+4 jump, balance, swim, not at risk when applying poison. proficient with bolas and nets.
LA +1

If these guys qualify for +1 LA, then so do my raptors, IMO


I think you should give them a -2 charisma. They seem naturally standoffish (no idea how to spell that, sorry) and very alien. Also, being in a nomadic strength based society, they would not be the best of talkers. If I am wrong, let me know, but I don't see raptors as the most convincing of talkers.
they dont live in a strength based society. they value intelligence and finesse over brute strength. Raptors have a strong magical tradition, and use their shamans in hunting as much as good old fashioned tooth and claw tactics. they have bards to facinate prey while the rest of the pack circle around for the kill, druids to cast entangle or Produce flame, and sorcerors that can use Ghost sound and Minor Image to drive prey toward an ambush.
their shamans study the natural world as well, and figured out how living things chan change over time. Raptors formulated the theory of natural selection while humans were still trying to figure out where babies come from. ( I put this in because of my own personal VIEWS)

why should charisma be reletavistic? charisma represents someones actual force of personality and ability to lead, NOT just how one is perceived in a social situation.

Ive made changes based on everyones input, so be sure to look at the revision before you continue discussion.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 07:07 PM
If they are covered in feathers, why not just make a race of terrestrial raptorians (from races of the wild?). You could even have a subrace called the penguarians. I would definitely play a penguarian.



A suggestion:

• +2 dexterity, -2 charisma: Raptors move with grace, poise, and speed, in a deliberate manner reminiscent of a bird. They posses sensible, level-headed minds, and exhibit keen awareness of their surroundings, yet their mindset is a bit foriegn to most other humanoids, as is their innate connection with their instincts.

• Medium: raptors have no penalties associated with size.

• Raptor base land speed is 40 ft.

• Humanoids: Raptors are affected by spells and abilities that affect humanoids.

• Natural Attacks: Raptors have three natural attacks. Claw 1d4 (2), and a Bite 1d6. The bite attack is the primary natural weapon, while all other natural weapons are secondary. A raptor wielding a two-handed weapon can still attack with its bite as part of a full attack. A raptor with a free hand can still attack with its claw as part of a full attack action.

• Rake (ex): A raptor who begins it action in a grapple can, while making a full attack, rake with its talons, dealing 1d6 damage per talon (2) plus half of its strength modifier, rounded down.

• Avian anatomy: Raptors do not have opposable thumbs. They take a -4 penalty to Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as attacks with all weapons except for the following: punching daggers, shortspears, quarterstaffs, longspears, spears, glaives, sais, bolas, and nets. In addition, any armor or special tools made for use by a raptorian cost twice as much to create.

• Scent (ex): raptors have the scent special ability.

• Stalker (ex): raptors have a +2 racial bonus on Spot, Move Silently, and Survival checks. In addition, a raptor who is running, attacking, or charging only takes a -5 penalty to his Hide and Move Silently checks, instead of -20.

• Weapon familiarity: raptors treat bolas and nets as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons. They always treat sais as simple weapons.

• +1 natural armor bonus

• Automatic languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnoll, Elven, Halfling.

• Favored Class: Ranger

• Level Adjustment: +0

Then you could make raptor ranger replacement levels at 2nd, 6th, and 11th levels.

the point of these guys is that they DONT use weapons at all. they never needed any. why invent the spear (or the bola, net or sai for that matter) when you have claws, talons, and, once they became sentient, Druids and sorcerors (and by extension, rangers and hexblades). when you have the Entangle spell, what's the point of nets?

just because they have feathers does not mean they are raptorians. why do kenkus exist, then? raptorians are lame, anyway. I think that animal based races should look more like animals than humans. its marginaly less silly that way.

my original design intent was to take the "real" velociraptor/denonychous/utauraptor, give them sentience and put them into a D&D framework.

Am I being too defensive here? these guys just mean alot to me, thats all. Im glad people are so interested in them. from this point on, i will try to be more open to Suggestions.

here's a sample raptor pack, as I see it:

Alpha Male (male raptor Ranger 3 Fighter 1)
Alpha Female (female raptor Hexblade 3
Shaman, Alpha female's brother (Male Raptor Druid 3)
Shaman's Apprentice, Alpha pair's child (Female Bard 1)
Hunter 1, Alpha male's Cousin (male Barb 1 rngr 1)
Hunter 2, Hunter 1's Mate (female Rog 2)
5 chicks, not old enough to join in the hunt

jdrich
2006-02-28, 07:14 PM
Just being alien does not give someone a charisma penalty.

Elans. Nyah.

And no, not the bard.

Parallax
2006-02-28, 07:29 PM
Oh boy, where to begin? I think I'll start by picking on 'pounce'. Here's a quote: " If you charge a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if you are allowed to act in it), you can make a full attack against the opponent charged. " Do you know where this is from? This is the benefit of Dire Charge, an EPIC feat. You are giving your pets an epic feat to replace the Ranger's second combat-style feat. I'm surprised nobody called you on it before.

Actually, your version is not limited to the first round of combat, nor is the target of the full attack specified, leaving open some discussion of cleaving, targetting several different foes, etc.. So it's even more powerful than an epic feat.

As far as level adjustment goes, I usually figure out what's appropriate by asking myself this: If we are a two-player party, and the OTHER guy gets to play my pet race, whle I get a human of the same class, but he starts at first level while I start at level X, what value of X is fair?

I'd say he'd have to get two compulsory levels of monstruous humanoid, and a +5 level adjustment, making X 8. Yup, sounds about right. Him MH 2 ranger 1, me ranger 8. Considering he starts with 5 attacks and can eventually use them all even when he charges, plus all the other cumulative advantages he's been designed to get, it feels fair. The corollary being that if that player then had a change of heart and decided he wanted to play the human instead, I would trade.

As a DM of course, I would laugh really hard at a player who would try to sneak this one into the game.

jdrich
2006-02-28, 07:33 PM
Actually, the pounce ability isn't supremely overpowered. It can be granted by a 2nd level spell.

Parallax
2006-02-28, 07:38 PM
Jonathan: Having it cast on you once in a while is one thing. Having it as a permanent attribute is quite another. To take an extreme example, a first level spell can get you a +20 to hit...

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 07:50 PM
ouch...

But wait, there's a feat in Races of the wild called catfolk pounce, that allows catfolk to make a full attack when they charge if the opponent is FLAT-FOOTED. perhaps i can make an alteration to sneak attack style.

Pounce [racial]
P: raptor, Multiattack, BAB +4
when you charge, you may make a full attack against an opponent at the end of that charge. that opponent must be flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise denided their dexterity bonus to AC. if you charge someone who does not meet the above criteria, you instead make a normal attack.

a raptor fighter may select pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats

Xanosect
2006-02-28, 07:52 PM
Pounce also can be achieved through the whirling dervish class (ok, it's not quite pounce, but accomplishes the same thing)

I don't know if pounce is so much an issue as the 5 natural attacks. regardless of the dice damage on the attacks (which is heavy, though not absurd). That's 5 chances a round to deliver your strength bonus upon the enemy.

Even if you make them invalid for magic items, (all, not just weapons) they are going to be rediculious at early levels. Would you be willing to let a level 2 ranger trade in some hitpoints and skill points for the ability to wield 5 weapons rather than 2? What happens if you have a raptor with a vow of poverty? Or a kensai who choses his talons as the weapons he enhances.

On the int bonus. Remember your scale here. All the studies and books on raptors imply that they were extremly smart dinosaurs. But they aren't implying that the average raptor was smarter than the average human. Simply by not giving them a penalty, you're implying that the raptors are very intelligent.

End note. For a final test, if you haven't brought this up with to many players. Cut out all the description, take the numbers to your players and ask them if they would like to play a character with these abilities. If more than one of them says yes. then it's probably still to powerful.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 08:20 PM
Aha! perhaps i can cap the number of natural attacks they can make in a round, or prevent them from making a full attack with their natural attacks (unless they pounce). any thoughts on this? its just that the thought of a raptor without talon attacks, claw attacks, and bite attack seems somehow abhorrent to me.

I feel an extreme need to keep their LA at +1, so you will have to excuse a little weasling.

the truth is, i live in an area where hardly anyone plays D&D, and my group is made up of people that I introduced to D&D a few months ago. before that, I just played forum-based games. so i cant ask the players.

Note: point taken on the int bonus. they now have no mental bonuses. heck, maybe i can give them a con penalty. they are birdlike after all, with hollow bones and so on.

Xanosect
2006-02-28, 08:32 PM
You could have the talons be like a troll rend, or a hag rake. If they hit with both claws give them the talons.

or

They can be used in grapples, pouncing, or needing a DC 20 jump check. (this way they gradually become more and more common as the pc's level)

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 08:44 PM
They can be used in grapples, pouncing, or needing a DC 20 jump check. (this way they gradually become more and more common as the pc's level)


:o :D Brilliant! DC 20 jump, you say? what's the penalty for failing? also, remember that their increased land speed gives them a bonus to jump checks. hmmmmm. possibilities...

By the by, here's a concept sketch i made a while ago:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/JodahtheArchmage/Raptorghghghghghg.jpg

Zeful
2006-02-28, 08:48 PM
my original design intent was to take the "real" velociraptor/denonychous/utauraptor, give them sentience and put them into a D&D framework.That's what I thought. My suggestions take into account what I've learned about them. (unfortunatly from the Jarassic Park movies)


Am I being too defensive here? these guys just mean alot to me, thats all. Im glad people are so interested in them. from this point on, i will try to be more open to Suggestions.Defencive? Yes. Overtly? No. A good quote to listen to "Being open to something doesn't mean accepting it immeadiatly."

I recomend shooting for LA+3 that way you have many of your favorite design aspects but will have a few low level encounters.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 09:10 PM
Okay, cards on the table: i was going to submit these guys to dragon magazine. I thought that the lower their LA, the greater their chance of being accepted. I think that +2 or +3 would be stretching things a bit. i want these guys to be as accesible as possible.

Ok, from where i stand, the thing standing in the way of these guys being LA+1 are their talons, so i need a way to limit that, make them only usable while grappling,with a jump check, or something similar. everything else has been nerfed

captain_decadence
2006-02-28, 09:13 PM
I feel an extreme need to keep their LA at +1, so you will have to excuse a little weasling.


Remember, no matter what we say, this is your race. Keep it how you want it.

Also, as you say, raptors are an extremely pack oriented society. They almost seem like they wouldn't interact with other species. It might not even matter what their level adjustment is if they pretty much only work amongst themselves.

Overall, I think it's a great idea that you invested a lot of yourself into so you don't want to see us bash on it. A little overpowered but I think most people's created races are.

It would make an especially cool system if you played Jurassic Park from the point of view of the raptors(I guess this would restrict them to pretty much martial classes but still) and you hunt down the humans. Even for a quick hack and slash, that sounds fun.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 09:38 PM
what is an adventurin party? a collection of individuals that work together for mutual benefit. sounds very similar to a pack to me.

raptors strike out on their own all the time. when a pack gets too big, or the youngsters feel stifled by their elders, or they wish to find mates of their own. then, they set off to find a mate and a new pack. occasionaly, these inquisitive youngsters wander into human lands. there, they find that certain parts of the world are ruled by monkeys, who get very angry if you kill the remarkably stupid animals they raise as food. Very ocassionaly, they run into a group of apes that live in a way the raptor finds very familiar. an adventuring party. they seem to be more worried about collecting little disks of yellow metal than anything else, but they seem ok.

thats just one example. others are as follows:
a raptor is captured by poachers (see the Barbarian description in the PHB). brought to human lands to be a zoo animal or used in the gladiatorial pits, the raptor easily escapes, but is now stuck in 'civilized' lands.

Some packs live closer to humans, and actively trade with them. so shamans decide that they should send an apprentace to study the humans and other races. they pick their most outgoing and expendable young acolyte, issue him with a notebook and pencil, and shove him out the metaphorical door. the sorceror/wizard/druid/bard wanders around, formulating theories and writing notes
homo sapiens seems to lack any innate offensive capability aside from their fists, which explains their extensive use of tools as artificial talons and claws. they also have developed a strategy similar to that employed by leafcutter ants, which they call 'agriculture' that allows them to maintain a steady food supply. it doesnt sound very fun, though.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 09:46 PM
It would make an especially cool system if you played Jurassic Park from the point of view of the raptors(I guess this would restrict them to pretty much martial classes but still) and you hunt down the humans. Even for a quick hack and slash, that sounds fun.

or even better, dont restrict them to marial classes. Imagine being a human in a jurassic park-like scenario. you slam a door on the raptor just behind you. you think you're safe, then you hear some strange growling chant. the door buckles and warps, and springs open. much scarryer than the doorhandle thng.

It would be like a big game hunter deciding to hunt the most deadly prey of all
Man

captain_decadence
2006-02-28, 09:58 PM
That actually sounds like a really fun game to play. Ancient race brought back by science but it turns out that(genetically or maybe just plain old mystically) they brought something back with them. *looks thoughtful and then goes forth to plan an entire campaign world that will never be used but will be much fun to create*

Splendor
2006-02-28, 10:07 PM
As a player and a DM I have always thought the monsters in the MM3 CR's were a little low.

+2 Dex, -2 Chr (or Str or Int or whatever ya want)
30' Movement is fine they don't need 40', if they really want 40' they can take the quick trait.

Humaniond (Reptilitian)

Natural Attacks: Bite (d6+full STR), or 2 Claws (d4+1/2 STR) this allows a raptor to qualify for multiattack but don't give them the feat for free.

Rake: A raptor who begins its action in a grapple can, while making a full attack, rake with its talons, dealing 1d4 damage per talon (2) plus half of its strength modifier, rounded down.

However raptors do not gain weapon proficiencies from class features but may take weapon proficiencie feats.

+3 Natural armor but cannot wear armor unless specifically designed for them (cost x2)

Raptor have keen eyesight granting them a +2 to spot checks.

Enhanced Smell: Raptor sense of smell is highly developed, giving a weaker version of the Scent ability. The ability is identical in all respects except the normal detection range is only 10ft, upwind detection has a range of 20ft and downwind detection has a range of 5ft. All attempts at tracking by scent alone suffer a –4 penalty. However It does aid in the use of characters with the track feat granting a +2 bonus when following tracks.

Low Light Vision

+1 LA, enough backdraws to balance the benefits.

Pounce [racial]
P: raptor, Multiattack, BAB +4
when you charge, you may make a full attack against an opponent at the end of that charge. that opponent must be flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise denided their dexterity bonus to AC. if you charge someone who does not meet the above criteria, you instead make a normal attack.
(There is catfolk pounce and Snow Tiger Beserker feat for barbarians. Both allow you to pounce)

Exceptional Smell [Racial]
Your sense of smell is far more potent than is normal for your race.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Smell, Track.
Benefit: You gain the Scent ability, as shown in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.

Hyrael
2006-02-28, 10:25 PM
That actually sounds like a really fun game to play. Ancient race brought back by science but it turns out that(genetically or maybe just plain old mystically) they brought something back with them. *looks thoughtful and then goes forth to plan an entire campaign world that will never be used but will be much fun to create*

Nah, it would be a Lost World Scenario. the raptors would have always been there. otherwise, it would make no sense. if they were raised jurassic park style, well...wait. if they were raised jurassic park style, they would have learned to speak english.
but, did you actually read the Lost world, not watch the movie? the raptor pack there was like those kids in Lord of the Flies, because they were never taught proper raptor behavior (like NOT diswmbowling your packmates to get closer to the kill).

captain_decadence
2006-03-01, 12:59 AM
I think splendor's build is good except that I would give only a +2 natural armor and stick the -2 in con (close relatives to birds, hollow bones, not the sturdiest of creatures even if they are predators). Yes, this makes them weaker fighters but their advantage seems to be in stalking, hit and run (if you give them the larger speed), and general sneakiness.

Yes, I did read the Lost World. Good book, mostly bad movie. I was suggesting a campaign world where human meddling with science brought forth creatures (raptors being just one of them) that had strange powers. If one were to work closely wiht the lost world model though, they would be crappy raptors. However, if one were to say that their intelligence was increased to sentience level, that would not matter as much.

Hyrael
2006-03-01, 10:59 AM
I think splendor's build is good except that I would give only a +2 natural armor and stick the -2 in con (close relatives to birds, hollow bones, not the sturdiest of creatures even if they are predators). Yes, this makes them weaker fighters but their advantage seems to be in stalking, hit and run (if you give them the larger speed), and general sneakiness.


Yes, sounds good. I may alter the rake slightly, but other than that, It looks cool.

SpiderBrigade
2006-03-01, 04:58 PM
Yeah, I think that Rake is the way to go for the foot-claws. I mean, obviously no one knows how raptors 'really' attacked, but I think most scientists envision something like "jump onto big prey, hanging on with the forelimbs, and kicking at their guts."

Of course, that sort of sounds like they should be able to use the thing in a grapple as well, and possibly get Improved Grab on their claw attacks. But I think that'd be too strong.

My advice, seconding what others have said: two claw attacks, 1d4 as normal. One bite attack, as a secondary attack. Rake ability. Pounce ability, possibly as a feat.
This makes the raptor into an OMG sneak attack race, which makes sense. They take a few levels in rogue and can just eviscerate things they catch flat-footed.

I don't think you need the "tentative" thing for limiting their attacks, especially if you convert the hind-feet into Rake attacks. Yeah, they start out ahead of a normal humanoid with a possible 3 attacks, but they get left behind in terms of damage pretty quickly. It's also harder for them to get magic properties on their "weapons."

Also not sure about the Natural Armor, honestly. To me that usually represents really heavy scales, or plates. Raptors would be scaly, but not really "armored." Again, they're light and birdlike.

Regarding ability scores: I agree with others that if you're trying to keep LA low, you need a penalty to offset the DEX bonus. I think the only one that even remotely makes sense is CON. They should have a good STR as hunters, and are obviously intelligent. Pack animals would also not be uncharismatic. Plus, all the hunting-type skills (spot, survival, etc) are WIS-based, so they wouldn't have a penatly there. On the other hand, if you look at real raptors (especially the smaller, non-Utah or mega-raptors) they are frail little things...like birds. Strong, fast, lethal...but they can't take a hit all that well (probably).

Zeful
2006-03-01, 06:00 PM
Yeah, I think that Rake is the way to go for the foot-claws. I mean, obviously no one knows how raptors 'really' attacked, but I think most scientists envision something like "jump onto big prey, hanging on with the forelimbs, and kicking at their guts."

Of course, that sort of sounds like they should be able to use the thing in a grapple as well, and possibly get Improved Grab on their claw attacks. But I think that'd be too strong.

My advice, seconding what others have said: two claw attacks, 1d4 as normal. One bite attack, as a secondary attack. Rake ability. Pounce ability, possibly as a feat.
This makes the raptor into an OMG sneak attack race, which makes sense. They take a few levels in rogue and can just eviscerate things they catch flat-footed. Which is the imagery probided by the movies. (I haven't read the book yet.)


I don't think you need the "tentative" thing for limiting their attacks, especially if you convert the hind-feet into Rake attacks. Yeah, they start out ahead of a normal humanoid with a possible 3 attacks, but they get left behind in terms of damage pretty quickly. It's also harder for them to get magic properties on their "weapons."That is true, which means most players will dislike the race because they have to "waste" feats to use magic weapons. Which only works if the DM thinks that way. Any race with magic is generally going to have magic weapons. Raptor will have magic vambraces (gauntlents with out finger guards, I think) that will magic their claws.


Also not sure about the Natural Armor, honestly. To me that usually represents really heavy scales, or plates. Raptors would be scaly, but not really "armored." Again, they're light and birdlike.

Regarding ability scores: I agree with others that if you're trying to keep LA low, you need a penalty to offset the DEX bonus. I think the only one that even remotely makes sense is CON. They should have a good STR as hunters, and are obviously intelligent. Pack animals would also not be uncharismatic. Plus, all the hunting-type skills (spot, survival, etc) are WIS-based, so they wouldn't have a penatly there. On the other hand, if you look at real raptors (especially the smaller, non-Utah or mega-raptors) they are frail little things...like birds. Strong, fast, lethal...but they can't take a hit all that well (probably).Natural armor in the Monster Manual covers many things, like thick skin or fir (+1) scales (+2 to +3) and so on. Sence the raptor race described might have thick skin, a +1 bonus would be better.
So Raptors are animalistic Elves that are cool? mabey with a +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int or Wis but no charisma penalty, Gather Information, Diplomacy penalties and an Intimidate bonus would represent alienism, or unfamiliarity. A +4 racial bonus to Constitution checks related to running or forced march. Bonuses to survival checks relating to traking by scent. These I belive help convey the flavor described by the OP.

Hyrael
2006-03-01, 10:01 PM
That is true, which means most players will dislike the race because they have to "waste" feats to use magic weapons. Which only works if the DM thinks that way. Any race with magic is generally going to have magic weapons. Raptor will have magic vambraces (gauntlents with out finger guards, I think) that will magic their claws.

well said. Come to that, I need to make some sort of magic item that does just that. I was thinking of something like this:
(props to Zeful for the word Vambrace)

Im not very experienced at magic Item creation, so areas marked with a (?) represent something im unsure of

Vambrace of Razor Claws
a vambrace of razor claws actually represents a wide variety of items. a vambrace enhances the wearer's natural claw attack by giving it an enhancement bonus and weapon special qualities.
creating a vambrace is treated as creating a magic weapon, and adds the magic weapon's additional cost to it's own.
CL 3(?) Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Magic Fang. Price 1000 +the enhancement cost(?) [thus, a +1 vambrace or razor claws costs 3000gp, and a +1 flaming vambrace costs 9000gp)

any thoughts on this?

Zeful
2006-03-02, 12:18 AM
Well it wouldn't be a new magic weapon just a new weapon.

Raptor's Vambrace: Exotic Weapon [racial]
This weapon functions much like a buckler providing a +1 sheild bonus to the wearer. However unlike normal weapons they can be enchanted with any sheild or weapon enchantment as long as the total enchantment bonus doesn't exceed a total of +101. When enchanted Vambraces are worn by any creature with a claw attack they are considered slashing weapons for they purposes of what powers work on them. Other wise they are considered bludgoening weapons. All members of the Raptor race recive this feat for free.

Weapon or armor enchancement are the same for this weapon. Thus a Vambrace with a +4 sheild bonus also has a +4 weapon bonus. Determining price is 3/4 the base price of a weapon of it total base price modifier.

This is kind of confusing but I think it would work.

EDIT: Reading your post after finishing mine makes yours make much more sence.

EDIT yet again:If I haven't made it clear I really, really want to play this race

captain_decadence
2006-03-02, 02:05 AM
Wait, I don't think Vambrances should be (or even are) weapons. They are something that you put on your wrist (or wrist equivalent in thsi case). They would be a magical item specially crafted for this race(which leads to a price increase). Unless I'm missing something, which I may well be.

Zeful
2006-03-03, 01:26 PM
Wait, I don't think Vambrances should be (or even are) weapons. They are something that you put on your wrist (or wrist equivalent in thsi case). They would be a magical item specially crafted for this race(which leads to a price increase). Unless I'm missing something, which I may well be. They're not and you're not. The vambraces shown in my last post simply bestows the weapon powers onto the fists/claws, depending on race. They also act as sheilds to a certian extent.

Nahal
2006-03-03, 02:07 PM
Vambraces are cool.

As far as stats and stuff goes, I think the -2 CHA fits rather well. You've taken a pack-based predator and made it sentient. If it still maintains animalistic mental aspects, then I justify the CHA penalty on the following:

Pack-Based: Raptors are xenophobic and stand-offish toward other races and even other Raptors of different packs at first. However, once a Raptor has accepted another as part of the pack (read: party) he is fiercely loyal, treating them as family.

Predator: Raptors have an innately predatory mindset that colors their dealing with others. They size up anything they meet, unconsciously trying to put it into either a "predator" or "prey" category based on its perceived strengths. They defer to those they feel are stronger, but are often condescending or even outright disrespectful to those they believe are weaker.

So you basically have a being who a) gives bad first impressions because it doesn't like you and b) gives the distinct impression that it is trying to decide if it could kill and eat you. Doesn't make for a charmer.

Hyrael
2006-03-03, 10:09 PM
I see what you mean, nahal, but the truth of the matter is that I want these guys to make good casters, particularly sorcerors. so no mental penalties. I will, however, give them a an inverted version of a half-elf's racial bonuses to gather informationand diplomacy checks.

this post is going to be the definitive word on these guys, but they are still open for alteration.

+2 Dex, -2 con, +2 int Raptors are fast but thin-boned and relatively frail, and have quick, cunning minds.

Speed: 40 ft

Humanoind (avian)

Size: medium

Natural Attacks: Bite (1d6, secondary) and 2 claws (1d6, secondary)

Rake: A raptor who begins its action in a grapple can, while making a full attack, rake with its talons, dealing 1d4 damage per talon (2) plus half of its strength modifier, rounded down. A raptor with the Pounce feat can also perform a rake during a pounce

Weapon Unfamiliarity: Raptors do not gain weapon proficiency through class levels, and must take weapon proficiency feats to be competent with non-natural weapons.

+1 natural Armor [this could be +2]

Master Stalker: raptors have a +2 competence bonus on spot, listen, hide, and move silently checks, and can move at up to 3/4 their speed without taking a penalty on move silently or hide checks.

Among non-raptor humanoids, raptors take a -2 penalty to diplomacy and gather information checks, and the starting attitude of NPCs is one step worse than normal. these penalties do not apply against those who are familiar with raptors or in areas of high integration.

Enhanced Smell: Raptor sense of smell is highly developed, giving a weaker version of the Scent ability. The ability is identical in all respects except the normal detection range is only 10ft, upwind detection has a range of 20ft and downwind detection has a range of 5ft. All attempts at tracking by scent alone suffer a –4 penalty. However It does aid in the use of characters with the track feat granting a +2 bonus when following tracks.

Automatic Language: Draconic
Bonus Languages: Common, Sylvan, Gnoll, Elven

Favored Class: Ranger

+1 LA

Pounce
P: Multiattack, BAB +4
when you charge, you may make a full attack against an opponent at the end of that charge. that opponent must be flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise denided their dexterity bonus to AC. if you charge someone who does not meet the above criteria, you instead make a normal attack.

Exceptional Smell [Racial]
Your sense of smell is far more potent than is normal for your race.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Smell, Track.
Benefit: You gain the Scent ability, as shown in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.

Tooth and Claw Combat Style
this combat style is in addition to Archery and Two Weapon Combat; it is usualy selected by raptors, lizardfolk, and other races that prefer their talons to conventional weaponry. the feats granted by this combat style are as follows:
Combat Style (2nd level): Multiattack
Improved Combat Style (6th level): Pounce
Combat Style Mastery (11th level): Improved Multiattack

Personality: raptors tend to be sensible and practical, though they appreciate a good time as much as humans. they tend to be loyal and uncomplicated (though this is not the same as stupid), and have no truck with angst or foolishness. Raptors have naturaly inquisitive natures and always investigate things they dont understand, rather than run away from, ignore, or destory them. Raptors have an innately predatory mindset that colors their dealing with others. They size up any non-raptor they meet, unconsciously trying to put it into either a "predator" or "prey" category based on its perceived strengths. They defer to those they feel are stronger, but are often condescending or even outright disrespectful to those they believe are weak. However, those that earn their respect are treated as equals, acheiving the mental lable of "fellow Raptor."

Relations: [working on it]

Alignment: Raptors favor imagination to tradition, and are almost always chaotic. As a race, they tend to be chaotic neutral, and there are a more or less equal number of chaotic evil and chaotic good raptors. Evil raptors kill for the fun of it, and often hunt sentient beings for the challenge and novelty. good raptors, on the other claw, stick to animals and evil creatures, and always make a point of killing quickly and cleanly.

Raptor lands: Raptors stick to unspoiled wilderness, and can live in a remarkable variety of climates. when they do have large-scale contact with humans, its usualy through savage tribes or fronteir colonists. in recent years, interspecies contact is increasing, as humans continue to expand into raptor territory, with not always positive results.

Religion: raptors disdain religion, preferring their own unique brand of druidism, that favores an scholarly understanding of the natural world to maintain balance. they have their own theories of natural history and the origin of life, that often puts them at odds with established doctrine. while human religion teaches that living things were created all at once by gods, raptors have written records that describe sex-obsessed apes that figured out how to make artificial claws out of pointy sticks and stones.

Language : raptors speak a dialect of draconic that incorporates hoots, whistles, growls and trills.

Names: raptor names tend to include t's, r's, y's, a's and e's. accomplished individuals sometimes adopt or attract titles that describe themselves (such as the Wanderer, or the Dreamer)
Male names: Thared, Hyrael, Taranesh, Sorenith
Female names: Talia, Ara, Orenel, Byalee

Vambrace of Razor Claws
this item looks like a gloveless gauntlet/wristguard, that provides special abiltites and an enhancement bonus on a nautral claw attack as though it was a magic weapon. a vambrace's cost is determine by the ordinary cost of such an enhancement bonus, x 1.5. thus, a +1 vambrace costs 2400 gp, and a +2 keen, flaming vambrace of razor claws costs 38400 gp.
Faint Transmutation; CL 4rd; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, [i]Magic Fang; cost 120% normal magic weapon cost.

Zeful
2006-03-03, 11:31 PM
I see what you mean, nahal, but the truth of the matter is that I want these guys to make good casters, particularly sorcerors. so no mental penalties. I will, however, give them a an inverted version of a half-elf's racial bonuses to gather informationand diplomacy checks. Makes sence


this post is going to be the definitive word on these guys, but they are still open for alteration.Huh?


+2 Dex, -2 con, +2 int Raptors are fast but thin-boned and relatively frail, and have quick, cunning minds.Seems okay


Speed: 40 ft

Humanoind (avian)

Size: medium

Natural Attacks: Bite (1d6, secondary) and 2 claws (1d6, secondary)

Rake: A raptor who begins its action in a grapple can, while making a full attack, rake with its talons, dealing 1d4 damage per talon (2) plus half of its strength modifier, rounded down. A raptor with the Pounce feat can also perform a rake during a pounceThese seem fine


Weapon Unfamiliarity: Raptors do not gain weapon proficiency through class levels, and must take weapon proficiency feats to be competent with non-natural weapons.One of there more distince features, making them a very fun race> ;D


+1 natural Armor [this could be +2]+1 fitts with thick hide better


Master Stalker: raptors have a +2 competence bonus on spot, listen, hide, and move silently checks, and can move at up to 3/4 their speed without taking a penalty on move silently or hide checks. A nother cool racial ability. :)


Among non-raptor humanoids, raptors take a -2 penalty to diplomacy and gather information checks, and the starting attitude of NPCs is one step worse than normal. these penalties do not apply against those who are familiar with raptors or in areas of high integration.Fits with the concept of "You want to make friends with those things! There first thought is 'are you food?!' There second thought is 'how strong is the ape?!' Something's wrong here."


Enhanced Smell: Raptor sense of smell is highly developed, giving a weaker version of the Scent ability. The ability is identical in all respects except the normal detection range is only 10ft, upwind detection has a range of 20ft and downwind detection has a range of 5ft. All attempts at tracking by scent alone suffer a –4 penalty. However It does aid in the use of characters with the track feat granting a +2 bonus when following tracks.Umm... I'm going to stay out of this.


Automatic Language: Draconic
Bonus Languages: Common, Sylvan, Gnoll, ElvenAutomatic Language: Draconic, Raptor(see below)


Favored Class: Ranger It was eather that or rouge, which is worse?


+1 LANeeds playtesting before that can be determined with greater accuracy. I volunteer.


Pounce
P: Multiattack, BAB +4
when you charge, you may make a full attack against an opponent at the end of that charge. that opponent must be flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise denided their dexterity bonus to AC. if you charge someone who does not meet the above criteria, you instead make a normal attack.

Exceptional Smell [Racial]
Your sense of smell is far more potent than is normal for your race.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Smell, Track.
Benefit: You gain the Scent ability, as shown in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.

Tooth and Claw Combat Style
this combat style is in addition to Archery and Two Weapon Combat; it is usualy selected by raptors, lizardfolk, and other races that prefer their talons to conventional weaponry. the feats granted by this combat style are as follows:
Combat Style (2nd level): Multiattack
Improved Combat Style (6th level): Pounce
Combat Style Mastery (11th level): Improved MultiattackAll good and reinforces the Favored class:Ranger


Alignment: Raptors favor imagination to tradition, and are almost always chaotic. As a race, they tend to be chaotic neutral, and there are a more or less equal number of chaotic evil and chaotic good raptors. Evil raptors kill for the fun of it, and often hunt sentient beings for the challenge and novelty. good raptors, on the other claw, one of the best jokes on this thread.

stick to animals and evil creatures, and always make a point of killing quickly and cleanly. All good flavor I just skipped what I couldn't coment on.


Raptor lands: Raptors stick to unspoiled wilderness, and can live in a remarkable variety of climates. when they do have large-scale contact with humans, its usualy through savage tribes or fronteir colonists. in recent years, interspecies contact is increasing, as humans continue to expand into raptor territory, with not always positive results.

Religion: raptors disdain religion, preferring their own unique brand of druidism, that favores an scholarly understanding of the natural world to maintain balance. they have their own theories of natural history and the origin of life, that often puts them at odds with established doctrine. while human religion teaches that living things were created all at once by gods, raptors have written records that describe sex-obsessed apes that figured out how to make artificial claws out of pointy sticks and stones.Makeing them more unliked by "civilized" races. And really liked by druids.


Language : raptors speak a dialect of draconic that incorporates hoots, whistles, growls and trills. Raptors should have there own seceret laguage: Raptor. Non raptors that select it only learn what the raptor says, not how to talk back.


Names: raptor names tend to include t's, r's, y's, a's and e's. accomplished individuals sometimes adopt or attract titles that describe themselves (such as the Wanderer, or the Dreamer)
Male names: Thared, Hyrael, Taranesh, Sorenith
Female names: Talia, Ara, Orenel, Byalee Getting a little to into the race are we?


Vambrace of Razor Claws
this item looks like a gloveless gauntlet/wristguard, that provides special abiltites and an enhancement bonus on a nautral claw attack as though it was a magic weapon. a vambrace's cost is determine by the ordinary cost of such an enhancement bonus, x 1.5. thus, a +1 vambrace costs 2400 gp, and a +2 keen, flaming vambrace of razor claws costs 38400 gp.
Faint Transmutation; CL 4th; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, [i]Magic Fang; cost 120% normal magic weapon cost.I still like my Vambrace idea better but this is still good. However Craft Wonderous Item seems unnessisary.

Hyrael
2006-03-04, 12:08 AM
1. It was eather that or rouge, which is worse?

2. Needs playtesting before that can be determined with greater accuracy. I volunteer.

3. All good and reinforces the Favored class:Ranger

4. Getting a little to into the race are we?

5. I still like my Vambrace idea better but this is still good. However Craft Wonderous Item seems unnessisary.

1. Ranger fits with these guys much better than rogue. though I can see them being multiclass ranger/rogues.

2. be my guest. :)

3. thank you

4. remember, I made these guys a long time ago. and one of my first characters was a raptor sorceror named Hyrael the Dreamer. so, when I was creating a profile for the message boards, I picked that name.

5. it just makes it slightly more difficult to make them, but It could be removed.