Rogue/Monk build? [3.5]

[Froogleyboy]

Ok,I'm trying to make an Uber-awesome rogue/monk build. Is it possible? I'm allowed core, magic item and spell cimpendium and the Complete series. Level 12.

[Dogmantra]

Take improved trip, pump strength, and trip -> sneak attack flurry them.

[ericgrau]

Being prone doesn't trigger sneak attack, but it could help him hit. I'd combo stunning fist with sneak attacks myself.

Also take advantage of your skill ranks, speed and magic items to give high mobility. Look up the skill rules, tumble, jump, climb, etc. Also remember there are no natural 1's and often you need to fail by 5 or more to get screwed; so that'll help reliability. Also look up related magic items to boost skill checks or add more forms of movement.

[Eldariel]

The best Rogue/Monk in Core + Completes is frankly Rogue 12. You can't really make an Str-focused one without making the character suck and thus the Monk bonuses are all entirely trivial. Rogue also gets more skill points, Sneak Attack and so on. Two Monk-levels gives a nice bunch of feats, but unfortunately those feats require Str- or Wis-focus, neither of which comes naturally to a Rogue.

The exception to this is some non-standard stat generation; if you can afford 4 high stats, Monk/Rogue can work out.

[ericgrau]

You can get around that with weapon finesse plus picking stunning fist and improved disarm for your feats rather than grappling and tripping. That at least makes you dex + wis rather than str + dex. Still 2 stats, but you do get more AC out of it and the loss of damage doesn't hurt as much with sneak attack.

[Eldariel]

You can get around that with weapon finesse plus picking stunning fist and improved disarm for your feats rather than grappling and tripping..

Stunning Fist requires Wis-focus to be efficient, Improved Disarm requires heavily humanoid-focused campaign, which nothing suggests towards in the OP. And frankly, he can pick Improved Disarm as a feat for Rogue if that's what he wants. Mechanically, there's little reason to take the Monk-dip with those precise classes.

Now, if he actually has the Wis to go unarmored... But it seems likely a light armor is gonna be stronger, and focusing on Dex would beat focusing on Wis in terms of efficiency for Weapon Finesse, especially on a medium BAB character.

[ericgrau]

Oh, I guess stunning fist doesn't improve with level. Okay, just dip into monk for flurry and stunning fist and don't bring it as high as disarm. I didn't think of the light armor, good point. That'll help early on. But eventually he'll get more than 4 AC from wis and he can use bracers of armor for the magic AC. It'd also let him flurry.

EDIT: Btw, ki focus only counts as a +1 weapon enchantment and could let you use stunning fist through a weapon. That'd make up for the lousy unarmed damage of a shallow monk dip, especially at higher levels.

[Dogmantra]

Being prone doesn't trigger sneak attack, but it could help him hit. I'd combo stunning fist with sneak attacks myself.
Really?

Lucky that's never come up in a game for me, then. I was sure it triggered SA

[ericgrau]

(Checks SRD to make sure). Hmm, nope, nothing about being denied dex when prone. Just a -4 to AB and AC. Makes sense.

Or if he can afford a str/wis/dex/con focus then he could both stun and trip the opponent. Effectively boosting his AB & AC by 4 (by penalizing his enemy) would really help his weaknesses.

[Eldariel]

Oh, I guess stunning fist doesn't improve with level. Okay, just dip into monk for flurry and stunning fist. I didn't think of the light armor, good point. That'll help early on. But eventually he'll get more than 4 AC from wis and he can use bracers of armor for the magic AC.

I don't know, pumping Wis is pretty expensive; chances are he needs to go Dex-only to hit with that medium BAB of his with Weapon Finesse. I mean, if we assume 14 starting Wis, he'll need a +4 item for that 4 AC, +6 item to get any more. That's 5 AC from Wis, and then we can assume ~5-6 Bracers, but that's a lot of money invested too; only when you reach +8 Bracers does this path truly win out vs. armor-only.

On the counterbalance there's Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor), which can be enhanced to +5 guise relatively easily (and you can get Nimbleness to benefit of +9 Dex to AC, which should be enough for most of the game) for +10 AC, which is comparable to +5 Wis to AC and +5 Bracers. With Celestial Armor, he can add an Animated Mithril Heavy Shield, something the Monk-build couldn't use, for +7 more to AC.


In the end, you can buy Animated Mithril Shield + Celestial Armor (which you can enhance a bit further) for Magic Vestment, or Amulet of Wis +6 and Bracers of AC +8. Celestial + Shield offer +17 AC when +5, while Bracers+Wis-boost (assuming 14 starting Wis) offer +13. It's worth noting that the Armor + Shield should end up cheaper if you have access to Magic Vestment, and come out at about the same without it (49k for +7 armor & shield vs. 64k + 36k for Bracers & Amulet; of course, armors have further enchantability if you're interested in abilities such as Shadow and Silent). That said, without access to Magic Vestment, I'd probably focus on getting something that grants Displacement anyways for defense.

But yeah, I don't think Stunning Fist really is worth it, simply because without Wis-focus, opponents' Fort-saves increase much faster than the DC (Fort-saves increase the fastest out of all the saves; on level 12, the average Fort-save is already horribly high while the DC even with 20 Wis is only 21), quickly turning into "roll 1 or save". You even lose 1 point of BAB in the process.


If you can afford Str/Wis/Con/Dex in relative numbers with high Str (and decent Int for Rogue skillpoints too...), it might be doable but otherwise the lack of Str-focus just really lessens the value of the Monk-dip.

[ericgrau]

Both high fort saves and stunning fist increase at the same rate. I'd just make dex his first stat (or str if he can afford the MAD), and wis the second stat. His stunning fist DC will be a point or two behind but it'll still land often enough (EDIT: checking my monster tables, it seems like he'd still get 50% success on average). Then while his wis is still low he wears armor, when it gets higher he goes armorless.

[Doc Roc]

As an additional point, the armor, which the monk cannot wear, offers up fly as a once-a-day perk. Really lovely for the price, particularly if the GM will let you snag it as a +1 enchantment variant rather than +3, and you can then use magic vestment.


On the other hand, I'm a well-known anti-monk advocate. so... :|

[Eldariel]

Both high fort saves and stunning fist increase at the same rate. I'd just make dex his first stat (or str if he can afford the MAD), and wis the second stat. His stunning fist DC will be a point or two behind but it'll still land often enough. Then while his wis is still low he wears armor, when it gets higher he goes armorless.

Mmh, but how much buff can you really afford for the secondary stat? Usually, to me, it only means buying +X items as you get the money, and considering a Tome as you get near level 20. I mean, starting at 14 Wis, you'd still get higher AC with armor+shield for your career, than you would by going unarmored, even if you get a +4 Tome.

Because if the Wis isn't very high, the Stunning Fist will have trouble resolving. I found this graph in the Gleemax Wizard's Handbook:
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/4003/savessriu4.jpg

Compiled with: CubeKnight's creature filter (http://www.cuberocks.net/DnD/CritterFilter/CritterFilter.php) according to the guide.

which suggests that at this point, an average monster Fort-save bonus is 14. That isn't saying Stunning Fist is useless, but it's far more likely to fail than to succeed; I don't think it's worth the BAB loss, as you need to hit to force the save in the first place.

[ericgrau]

His party would be fighting 4 CR 14 monsters around level 16 assuming a difficult fight. An average fight would be against 4 CR 14 monsters at level 18. 18+5=23 (wis =14+6=20), which is about the same 50% chance he gets at level 1. By this point he'd also have a monk's belt for +6 unarmored AC before magical enhancements, thus also overtaking celestial armor.

The main problem I think is only having a 50% chance of getting sneak attacks in a round; less if his AB for the stunning fist attempts is lousy. He needs a way to boost lousy rogue/monk mid-BAB AB and perhaps a backup sneak attack trigger.

[Person_Man]

You're going to have a hard time with this build. Rogue and Monk are generally weak classes. Rogue needs Sneak Attack and related feats to work well. Monk needs Stunning Fist uses and/or increases in size for reasonable Unarmed Damage. The two have little or no synergy, outside of the fact that Stunning Fist qualifies you for Sneak Attack, which you can do many different ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5875080&postcount=7).

Maybe if your DM is nice, he'll let the Ascetic Rogue feat allow your Monk and Rogue levels to stack for Stunning Fist uses or Sneak Attack. By itself, it's pretty useless.

Anywho, suggestions you might find useful (most of these are outside your books allowed, but I thought I'd put them up anyway for those who might be interested):

Kung Fu Genius or Carmandine Monk: Moves Monk abilities from Wis to Int.

Freezing the Lifeblood: Burn Stun use to paralyze enemy for 1d4+1 rounds.

Weakening Touch: Burn a Stun use to impose a -6 Str penalty. No Save. Great for boss battles, especially when combined with Wounding weapons.

Pharaoh's Fist: When you use Stunning Fist, enemies adjacent to the target are also effected.

Snap Kick: Extra unarmed attack whenever you attack.

Sand Dancer: Whenever you move at least 10 feet, Tumble, and successfully attack an enemy while moving on loose dirt/sand/etc, that enemy must Save or be Blinded for 1 round. There are a ton of ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) to get free movement and/or Pounce. You can also cheaply purchase a bottle of endless sand, turn it on, and tie it to your belt to cover the loose sand requirement.

Scorpion's Grapple: Free Grapple check whenever you hit enemy. This essentially doubles the damage of your first hit (since you deal damage when you hit, and again when you successfully Grapple). Also, you can make a Grapple check per turn for each attack that you get. (This was always true, and it's clarified explicitly in the Rules Compendium). Grapple checks are much easier then attack rolls.

Staggering Strike: A successful Sneak Attack Staggers opponent for 1 round.

Dragonfire Strike: Adds +1d6 sneak attack damage when you use it, and converts your Sneak Attack damage to an energy type. A nice DM will let this bypass Sneak Attack immunity (it depends on how you read the feat, and exactly when the Precision damage turns into Energy damage).

Maiming Strike: Forgo 2d6 sneak attack for 1 Cha damage. So if you have 6d6 Sneak Attack, you can deal 3 points of Cha damage. With 4+ attacks per round, it'd be easy to kill anything not immune to ability damage in one round.

Craven: Add your character level to Sneak Attack damage.

Sneak Attack feats/boosts thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915).

Feat index (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)

[ericgrau]

Sounds like nice tips. And I would hope he wouldn't use a rogue or a monk as a pure melee class. The skills and mobility are important too. Maybe he could sneak up on an opponent with blinding speed, jumping past obstacles, etc. Catch him flat-footed for the first attack, stun for later ones. Use flanking, invisiblity, or other triggers if possible. Maybe trip too if he can afford the str. That'd be "uber-awesome". But yeah, if he just wants to walk up and hit stuff in a party of 4 clumsy & loud PCs then he should play a barbarian/fighter/paladin.

[Origomar]

If you disarm someone and they pick up their weapon in your threatened square does it provoke an attack of opportunity?

Heres my two cents worth, as mentioned above you really dont need that many levels of monk because as it stands they are kind of underpowered. you essentially need from them or want from them stunning fist, FLURRY, unarmored strike.

So be a level 2 monk and get the feats

Stunning fist

Combat reflexes(catching arrows is more awsome but less useful :-/)

At level 10 rogue you get

Improved evasion(because if you get two evasions they stack)

sneak attack+5d6

Trap sense+3

And one special ability I would choose crippling strike because if possible(I'm not sure I'm not extremely fluent on the rules)
Sneak attack flurry crippling strike O.o?

if all things land you get -6 strength which isn't bad.

Oh and for good measure id get the spring attack tree maybe weapon finesse on fists so you don't have to have a high strength to hit, improved disarm because if they don't have a weapon and you don't and you have some monk in you, you win.(that is unless your fighting a giant hydra or monster of some sort x.x)

[Eldariel]

I still think a pure Rogue would be optimal assuming insufficient stats for "4 high". With complete Dex-focus and no dips, he still has a fair BAB and a decent To Hit; combined with few other factors like Greater Invisibility/Hiding/Flanking/etc. he can gather enough bonuses to hit consistently. Playing a small race is obvious as his weapon damage is trivial anyways for the +1, and even Reduce Person is considerable (although being Tiny has the wee side effect of removing your reach...). With all the bonuses put together, hitting should usually be rather easy. And of course, whenever it's hard, he can just do touch attacks with Wands of energy damage spells.

He also has 8+Int skillpoints and the best list in Core including awesome like Use Magic Device, Sleight of Hand, Forgery, all socials, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Spot, Listen, all the Trapfinding stuff, Disguise, etc. which can help a lot (especially UMD, Sleight, Hide & Move Silently as far as combat is concerned).

[ericgrau]

If you disarm someone and they pick up their weapon in your threatened square does it provoke an attack of opportunity?
Yeup. Or if he gets up from a trip. Or tries to crawl away (limited to 5 feet per move action, btw).

A pure rogue with other sneak attack triggers would also work quite well. He'd have less AC at higher levels, slightly less HP and lower speed, but he could probably get a more reliable SA trigger and succeed on the movement skills at least as well (but at a slower speed). He also has more SA dice of course. OTOH if you want to trip, flurry and get combat reflexes the monk dip might help. Depends how MAD you can be I guess.

[Eldariel]

A pure rogue with other sneak attack triggers would also work quite well. He'd have less AC, slightly less HP and lower speed, but he could probably get a more reliable SA trigger and succeed on the movement skills at least as well (but at a slower speed).

Mmmh, getting higher speed from Monk would require a huge number of levels anyways, so I don't think it's going to happen (light armor doesn't adversely impact speed anyways) with this character; they don't stack with Enhancement bonuses either way, so even if one gets a speed bonus from Monk, it overlaps with magical boosts (unless you were referring to being small, which is true of course). And on level 12, straight Rogue has the same AC as Monk/Rogue (because you'll be using armor either way; it seems like you'd really need to either start with 16-18 Wis or be near 20 for Wis to be higher due to the inability to use Animated Shield with Monk AC bonus).

[Telonius]

Rogue19/Monk1. More powerful than either Rogue20 or Monk20.

[ericgrau]

Mmmh, getting higher speed from Monk would require a huge number of levels anyways, so I don't think it's going to happen (light armor doesn't adversely impact speed anyways) with this character; they don't stack with Enhancement bonuses either way, so even if one gets a speed bonus from Monk, it overlaps with magical boosts (unless you were referring to being small, which is true of course). And on level 12, straight Rogue has the same AC as Monk/Rogue (because you'll be using armor either way; it seems like you'd really need to either start with 16-18 Wis or be near 20 for Wis to be higher due to the inability to use Animated Shield with Monk AC bonus).

That's true, you don't go any faster. And a monk's belt could give you the wis to AC at higher levels. That mainly leaves flurry and all the monk feats. You could also grab those very slowly with lots of rogue levels, and stunning fist would come rather late. But you'd have another SA die or at least half a die and +0.75 AB in exchange for not dipping.

[Thespianus]

Rogue19/Monk1. More powerful than either Rogue20 or Monk20.
Yes, with Ascetic Mage, you get real good unarmed damage and 10D6 SA damage. However, your Flurry will be useless at (-2/-2), which really puzzles me. Why not describe the Flurry as a funtion of BAB and Monk-levels, instead of that table on the Monk-class in the PHB.

A Monk1/Fighter19 has a BAB of 19, and four iterative attacks on a full attack, but he can only deliver a Flurry at (-2/-2). Wouldn't it make more sense that his Flurry would be at +17/+17/+12/+7/+2 , that is "One extra attack at full BAB-2" (Normal full attack at +19/+14/+9/+4)

[Person_Man]

Oh, you might also want to look at the Flindbar (basically nunchaku). +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen/Impact effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit. Monster Manual III. They're an Exotic Weapon, but a nice DM will let you count them as a special Monk weapon.

[Djibriel]

Unearthed Arcana Monk variants can be an excellent addition. Though not technically core, the srd comes darn close so you could talk with your DM about that. Sleeping Tiger, Cobra Strike and Denying Stance give you great feats and a +2 unnamed bonus to a skill check.

I'd advise two levels of Monk; +3 to all saves, Evasion and you're always armed. Going in unarmed has its advantages in social situations, upon being discovered when sneaking, etc. If no variant is allowed, Monk 1 gives the most important benefits as well. I'd dump Dex and take Imp. Grapple. It's can be nice in overpowering NPCs and to get out of Grapples.

[Eldariel]

I'd advise two levels of Monk; +3 to all saves, Evasion and you're always armed.

Rogue already gets Evasion; extra evasions are redundant. This also gives up a point of BAB. The saves are great though. Don't think they're worth it, but that's just me.


Going in unarmed has its advantages in social situations, upon being discovered when sneaking, etc.

This is specifically what Sleight of Hand to hide weapons is for. Given Dex-focus, you can be almost sure you'll have your weapons available at all times.


If no variant is allowed, Monk 1 gives the most important benefits as well. I'd dump Dex and take Imp. Grapple. It's can be nice in overpowering NPCs and to get out of Grapples.

If you dump Dex as a Rogue/Monk, you'll suck at all the things the classes are supposed to excel at (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, etc.) and have around 10 base AC without the ability to wear anything heavier than Mithril Breastplate (which further screws your skills)... Doesn't seem like a supersekrit option, ensuring opponents PA you for full and hit, and even the friggin' dead can't miss you so you'll get PAd for full all the time.

[Human Paragon 3]

Person Man's advice is very sound-- ESPECIALLY his feat advice. In particular, staggering strike, kung-fu genius and craven.

Here's something nobody has mentioned yet: the phbII flurry variant called Decisive Strike. Instead of making extra attacks (aka the flurry of misses) you make a single attack that deals double damage. Later you can make two double damage attacks. In addition, any time you use stunning fist with decisive strike, you get a +2 to the stun DC, something you'll need.

I know what you're thinking: sneak attack won't get doubled by the the decisive strike, and it's true. However, you'll be more likely to get your stun, which will allow more sneak attacks. In addition the damage boost from craven is a flat numerical boost (your character level) so it WILL get doubled. At level 20, you'll see an extra 40 damage per sneak attack thanks to craven and decisive strike used together.

Additionally, you can wield a staff to get 11/2x STR to your attacks and 2x on power attack. Get a wand of wraith strike to make your attacks touch attacks (rogue gets UMD after all) and you can tank your whole BAB for power attack. A stunned, flatfooted, opponent will have a touch AC of 10. At level 20, your BAB will be +15, so that's 30 damage, 20 damage from craven, plus 1 1/2x your str, and the base damage from your (magic) staff times 2 for decisive strike for at least 100 damage. Then add sneak attack.

Snap kick could also be very useful here, getting in an extra attack even if you use a full attack action to decisive strike. It's from TOB however, not one of your approved sources.

Tattooed Monk from Complete Warrior might be a good prestige class for you. The tattoos offer a lot of good benefits to a monk/skill monkey.

EDIT: Over 100 damage per shot is nice, but not amazing at level 20. A few extra perks that makes this build worthwhile: Some combination of stunning, staggering and paralyzing opponents depending on your feat choice. Action economy cannot be overstated. A good selection of skills that let you jump, tumble and sneak around the battlefield, bluff and diplomance people in social situations, disable devices etc. Should be a fun character if nothing else.