An unforseen problem with running 4.0 games.

[Kudaku]

Hi everyone! First of all I’d like to say that I’ve been reading the forum for some time, but I haven’t really worked up my courage / had sufficient reason to add my own thread to the merry chaos that’s usually taking place here :smalltongue:. However, that’s about to change…

For the last week I’ve been DM’ing my first 4.0 game with a bunch of friends – we’re going through the Keep on the Shadowfell module. As we’re using the free-play version online, we don’t have access to the premade maps that were bundled with the book. Partially this and partially the nature of 4.0 have exasperated problems we’ve really been having for some time.

Essentially Combat Takes Too Long due to map restraints. We have been playing D&D since 3.0 and usually we’ve just been using graph paper which we have drawn directly on, using letters to differentiate the players from the various monsters, erasing as people move around, die, flee, and so on. With 3.5 the need for movement was limited (Full Attacks anyone) and the number of attackers was usually kept low – so the system worked decently. In 4.0, with Minions, Slide powers, and an overall focus on movement… Well, the graph paper swiftly ends up looking like a cross between a crossword puzzle and some nifty algebra - until we erase our way straight through the paper, that is.

My first thought was to grab some miniatures and playing it all out on pre-printed maps. I found some awesome maps made by Loydb (http://forum.cartographersguild.com/member.php?u=597) over at Cartographer's Guild (www.Cartographersguild.com). However, with a 1inch (the standard size of a miniature base seems to be 1 inch, from what I can tell) square graph linepaper maps quickly end up taking anywhere between 4 and 10 A4 pages. In particular Area 1-5 (the horror rune room, complete with zombies) became over three feet long with this system.

Printing them in a smaller scale means we have problems finding miniatures that are small enough to fit. I could use tokens like coins or dice instead – but again with 10-12 minions running around that is quickly a very large pile of coins to keep track of. I thought I’d see if I could find smaller miniatures (and in turn be able to use smaller squares) but I have very limited experience shopping for figures and I couldn’t find anything solid searching online. Anyone know of a good supplier for minis with small bases?

Finally I know computer programs could be used, but I don’t really like the idea of placing a computer in the middle of my setup… I feel like computers would be a distraction from the game and the interaction in between the players, and the players and the DM.



If you’ve read this far, I congratulate you on keeping up with this rather long-running post. If you skipped to the bottom, I forgive you and leave you with a summary and a request:

I'm looking for a good way to draw up easily understood maps that will be able to keep up with the pace of a 4.0 game.

Please share any advice (well-meant or otherwise), ideas, suggestions, insights, and so on and so forth, that spring to mind :smallsmile:.

[Mando Knight]

Computer + Projector + large surface + Gimp and/or Maptools & Tokentools = problem solved (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/).

[Kudaku]

Hi there, thanks for a speedy reply! However, I did specify that I'd prefer a solution that does not involve a computer, and installing a projector over my dining table would probably not go down well with the rest of the family... Maybe something slightly more affordable and slightly less... well... Massive?

[RTGoodman]

Get one of THESE (http://www.chessex.com/mats/Battlemats_&_Megamats.htm). You can get them from various retailers in various sizes, and they're GREAT.

Alternatively (and slightly cheaper), just got to Staples/Office Depot/whatever, get a piece of posterboard, and draw a 1" grid on it. Take it back the place you bought it and have them laminate it. When I did it I think it only cost a couple of bucks.

Congrats, now you've got your very own erasable battle mat! Now, just grab some miniatures (WotC and other companies sell them, or you could use coins, dice, Legos, or anything else) and some wet-erase markers to draw terrain and you're set!

[overduegalaxy]

rtg's got the right idea. A mat and some wet erase markers can cost less than $40, so it's cheap, and the mat can be reused essentially endlessly.

As a cheaper alternative to minis, my group uses squares of cardboard. The PCs draw their portraits on their squares, while monsters are simply numbered or lettered.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If you have enough lego pieces laying around, you could construct a board out of those.

... That actually sounds pretty awesome...

[kc0bbq]

I just bought a 200 foot roll of 36" wide 1" quad rule paper online. It works nicely when the generic 1" maps I have don't.

[Kudaku]

The BattleMats look great! However ordering one in from the states would take rather long time... Is there any chance I could find one in London? Planning a trip there in a couple of days.

And thank you for suggesting the cardboard cutouts, that was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for :smallsmile:

[Charity]

Those flip chart pads have inch squares on, use those they are pretty cheap/available, and you can draw them up beforehand with your 5 year old daughters help for added brownie points.

[RTGoodman]

The BattleMats look great! However ordering one in from the states would take rather long time... Is there any chance I could find one in London? Planning a trip there in a couple of days.

I don't know any places specifically, but most gaming stores should be able to either sell you one they have in stock or order you one from their suppliers. If not, well, ordering from the US is probably your best bet - Paizo, CrystalCaste, Chessex, and a BUNCH of other companies sell them, and you can find probably find some on eBay or Amazon, too. I found THIS ONE (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gamemastery-Flip-Mat-Basic-Paizo-Staff/dp/1601251556/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245794713&sr=8-2) on Amazon.co.uk for (what I assume to be) pretty cheap (£6.30), and it should do fine.


Any Brits in the Playground know of a good gaming store in London that'd have some?

[Keld Denar]

Another fun tool, if you are gonna be playing on a battlemat or similar 1" grid are the Steelsqwire (http://www.steelsqwire.com/prod02.htm) family of products. They allow you, at a glance, to identify your Burst2, Burst3, Burst4, and all your 10', 20', and 40' radius needs and other funny shapped spells. The guy that came up with these is freakin awesome.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The BattleMats look great! However ordering one in from the states would take rather long time... Is there any chance I could find one in London? Planning a trip there in a couple of days.

Any sheet of similar material with squares will do. We got ours from some random knick-knack arts-'n'-crafts store. Add water-erase markers and something resembling miniatures and you are good to go.

[Keld Denar]

Also, the company Starburst conveniently packages their candies in flat square shapes whos sides measure slightly less than 1". That makes them perfect as monsters. They also come in 4 delicious flavors in the base product, with 2-3 other catagories of flavors bringing the total up to around 12-16 unique pieces of candy, making it easy to distinguish your orc archers from your orc warriors and your orc shaman.

Also has the bonus that you get to eat what you kill!

I don't know if you can get Starburst candies in the UK, but I'm sure if you look around, you'll be able to find something similar.

[Gralamin]

Having Used the Battlemats for a long time, Here's a little cheat that will make it last longer and fix any problems to do with it Curling up.
Buy a semi-thick sheet of Transparent plastic (I found the one I bought at Home Depot, so any such place should have them), and cut it so it covers just a bit more then your mat. It shouldn't cost much and doesn't take much time, but increases the life of your mat by a great deal of time. Plus, the Same wet-erase markers work on it.

[Clementx]

Having Used the Battlemats for a long time, Here's a little cheat that will make it last longer and fix any problems to do with it Curling up.
Buy a semi-thick sheet of Transparent plastic (I found the one I bought at Home Depot, so any such place should have them), and cut it so it covers just a bit more then your mat. It shouldn't cost much and doesn't take much time, but increases the life of your mat by a great deal of time. Plus, the Same wet-erase markers work on it.
This is also what I do. You can buy acetate by the inch at most craft/office supply stores. Alternatively, transparency sheets for overhead projection also works. That way, you can draw out a 1in grid on paper/cardstock, and overlay the plastic, dry-erasing any relevant info. When it spills over the edges of the map, your players have a free workspace to track HP, effects, their power usages, etc. If you get multiple sections, you can even pre-draw your terrain for the night.

[Mnymosene]

We've always just used graph paper (we're young and cheap), but laminated graph paper sounds much better.I may have to try to make some up.

A whole tabletop done in squares would be really cool. You could just put one of those plastic-y clear tablecloths over it and draw.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If you have enough lego pieces laying around, you could construct a board out of those.

... That actually sounds pretty awesome...

It is. That's exactly what I do for my groups.

The entrance to one of my dungeons (the rest of which has since been cannibalized for a jungle fortress):
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb176/psychictheurge10/DSCF1977.jpg
:smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

Essentially Combat Takes Too Long due to map restraints.

4E combat takes long, period.

[Vizen]

It is. That's exactly what I do for my groups.

The entrance to one of my dungeons (the rest of which has since been cannibalized for a jungle fortress):
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb176/psychictheurge10/DSCF1977.jpg
:smallbiggrin:

That, is the most awesomest thing I have ever seen.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

That, is the most awesomest thing I have ever seen.

You should have seen the Lego Tomb of Horrors.

Yes, that Tomb of Horrors. :smallamused:

[Reverent-One]

4E D&D combat takes long, period.*

*with the exception of when both sides are just throwing around SoD spells.

Fixed that for you.

[Alteran]

4E combat takes long, period.

Long is not the same thing as too long.
That's what she said.
While I agree that combat in 4e can take a while (not that I can compare to another edition, I haven't played any besides 4e), there are a number of factors that can make it take more time than is desired. The lack of a proper map is going to be one of them. For my group, the biggest factor is probably our increased group size, as we recently went from 4 to 6 players. Just another example.

[Thajocoth]

Fixed that for you.

SoD? What's that stand for?

I play 4th ed plenty, but I'm not up on all the acronyms.

-----

I recommend Tact-tiles if you can find em. They're dry-erase. That's what my group uses. Their interlocking allows for easy scrolling.

Or... If you just want smaller minis to use on your graph paper... You can probably find something that small. Remember you only need about 10 unique looking things and toss in some repeats. Maybe a bunch of 1x1 legos of different colors?

[Reverent-One]

SoD? What's that stand for?

I play 4th ed plenty, but I'm not up on all the acronyms.


Save or Die spells from 3.5, those will speed up combat if they are in use alright.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Save or Die spells from 3.5, those will speed up combat if they are in use alright.

Indeed. There were plenty of rants and raves about how horrible they were when 4e was announced (though strangely no one seemed to mind before then...) but the major advantage they have is cutting down combat time or at least removing enough opponents to speed things up. With the ridiculous amounts of solo/elite HP in 4e, you'd think they'd be more desirable than ever.

[Rizban]

If you want something really small, you can buy a box of warhammer epic minis (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/listProducts.jsp?catId=cat200204). They're tiny but a bit expensive. You can get the Imperial Guard Character Pack and like the Ork Warband. The two would cost you around $50, but they're small enough that you can pretty much use them with regular graph paper. I remember that we used to keep a couple in one of those pouches that fits in a binder's rings and a pad of graph paper back in high school for just that purpose.

[Thajocoth]

...With the ridiculous amounts of solo/elite HP in 4e, you'd think they'd be more desirable than ever.

Not really. I've found that enemies last just long enough to show how interesting they are. Elites and Solos are more interesting and thusly have more hp. I wouldn't want them to die faster... But it'd be nice if the warlock in the party had a list of all his optional bonuses instead of trying to remember them all. Things like that would cut battle time in half while still keeping to the same number of rounds, keeping the interestingness going. It's only boring if it trudges. If you're fighting down a very wide hallway with elevated portions while a wave of lava is rising behind you, Nothigs and Earth Archons are fighting you and some crossbow turrets pop out... It's not gonna trudge so much. I think the real problem here is that people aren't used to making the room be part of the fight. Not that I care how other people play...

Back on topic, I think you could take 2 cut out grid squares and cut one side on each to it's center, interlock them through this cut and put initials on it to make a tiny paper mini that'll stand up.

[valadil]

Like many others, we use the rolled up battlemats. They work well, but might be tight if you have limited space.

Have you considered starting with a single sheet of 1" gridded paper and expanding as needed as your players explore? Seems like this wouldn't use up too much more space, although it would go through paper a lot more quickly.

[TheCountAlucard]

If you have enough lego pieces laying around, you could construct a board out of those.A friend was running a war-themed game some time ago. One time the party has to get through this wall, and when we got to it, the DM plonked down a massive wall made out of legos.

'Twas pretty cool.

[Colmarr]

Another fun tool, if you are gonna be playing on a battlemat or similar 1" grid are the Steelsqwire (http://www.steelsqwire.com/prod02.htm) family of products. They allow you, at a glance, to identify your Burst2, Burst3, Burst4, and all your 10', 20', and 40' radius needs and other funny shapped spells. The guy that came up with these is freakin awesome.

I'd be curious to know how Steelsqwire is going post-4e.

Given that 4e deals almost exclusively in square shapes (forgoing the quasi-cones and quasi-circles) and non-euclidean diagonals (1-1-1 rather than 1-2-1), I would have though that identifying the areas of spells was remarkably easy...

[Kurald Galain]

[spoiler]Not really. I've found that enemies last just long enough to show how interesting they are. Elites and Solos are more interesting and thusly have more hp.
Really? I find most solo battles become tedious quickly. It ends up with the players surrounding the monster so they can flank, everybody running out of usable encouter/daily powers in the first two or three rounds, and then people keep spamming their at-will until it dies. Yawn. This might get better at paragon, though.


But it'd be nice if the warlock in the party had a list of all his optional bonuses instead of trying to remember them all.
This. Certain players really slow down combat (e.g. by taking up as much time as the other players combined).

[Panda-s1]

I'd be curious to know how Steelsqwire is going post-4e.

Given that 4e deals almost exclusively in square shapes (forgoing the quasi-cones and quasi-circles) and non-euclidean diagonals (1-1-1 rather than 1-2-1), I would have though that identifying the areas of spells was remarkably easy...

I dunno, I remember doing an order back when I worked at a game store and someone (not Steelsqwire) was selling 4e blast templates. Yeah. I mean it's convenient for marking zones, but making wire squares is easy.

...I'd actually like to know how well those sold.

[Chrono22]

Draw the map on graph paper. Place corkboard/tackboard underneath.
Get some tacks. Color the tacks. Organize on graph paper map.

[Kudaku]

Thanks for all the great suggestions people! Since I'm going to be running the module with available maps for the next week,, so I'm going to pre-print maps with a 1cm square gridline and use the cardboard cutouts with numbers/letters written on them.
When I head into London I'll check out Orc's Lair and a few other places to have a look for battlemats - I really like the idea that I can fold it up to save some space going to and from the sessions :smallsmile:.

As for minis I'm not entirely sure what I'll do long-term. Thanks to Rizban for linking the WH40k figurines, but they're a bit too expensive for me at the moment.


4E combat takes long, period.


I figured I'd spoiler my comment to this since I touch on a few elements in Keep on the Shadowfell below.

So far both me and my players are enjoying 4E very much. Combat is nicely paced - the problems we were having weren't really related to the system, more that we had a problem for some time that got more pronounced in 4.0 since 4E uses more characters in a fight. It's nice to have encounters last long enough to be able to highlight the differences in the monsters and how they fight - when your characters are screaming at the rogue to keep the Guard Drakes separated that you know you're really getting to them :smallbiggrin:.

We ran a couple of test fights to get a feel for the game, explore the combat rules etc, and I was amazed by how different two encounters could be. The suggested Ettercaps and Deathjump Spiders encounter is probably one of the most fun fights I've had in a long time, and it really highlighted the differences in 3.5 and 4.0 fights both for me and my players. Huge shifts, Death from Above, and the Ettercaps being able to stun a player whenever they have combat advantage was incredibly different from 3.5 where the same fight would quickly turn into a brawl of Full Attacks and to a certain degree Save or Suck-spells.

Furthermore the players seem to be thoroughly enjoying using terrains and features in the dungeon so far, including hillarious if somewhat sadistical experiments with the torture chamber ("you know that screaming coming from the Iron Maiden? Yeah, it stopped...") and gleefully tumbling Guard Drakes off the various high surfaces lurking on the maps.

That having been said, the system is also quite clunky at points. Though I'm happy they got rid of the 2 skill points per level (Really, skills seems like one of the most obvious ways to flesh out a character and give his background an in-game effect - why would they limit this so sharply?), I still can't really get into the nature of Skill Challenges. I understand that it's a way to make characters with different trained skills be able to engage in social interaction - but it really just feels forced for me. At the moment I'm considering cutting it completely and let characters get by purely on their face skills (God help us all).

Ultimately I feel that 4.0 suits our gameplay better than 3.5 did, and though I recognize it has limitations I think we're likely to stick to it for the foreseeable future :smallsmile:

Finally, for those of you who find that some characters slow gameplay down more than others:

I've taken to photocopying parts of the player's handbook and pasting them back together to give each player an A4 sheet listing his at will's, encounter, and daily powers. It saves a fair bit of time leafing through the player's handbook to figure out if it was -2 and prone, or -2 and slowed.

Additionally I use the Initiative Index Cards, listing states on the card as they happen. I find that this makes keeping track of Marks, Curses, Ongoing Damage, and all the other stuff that'll crop up during the typical fight alot easier.

[Thajocoth]

Finally, for those of you who find that some characters slow gameplay down more than others:

I've taken to photocopying parts of the player's handbook and pasting them back together to give each player an A4 sheet listing his at will's, encounter, and daily powers. It saves a fair bit of time leafing through the player's handbook to figure out if it was -2 and prone, or -2 and slowed.

Additionally I use the Initiative Index Cards, listing states on the card as they happen. I find that this makes keeping track of Marks, Curses, Ongoing Damage, and all the other stuff that'll crop up during the typical fight alot easier.

My group has all their abilities on index cards, flipping them over to mark that they've been used. We also use initiative cards, which are run by one of the players, not the DM. Each mini gets a colored magnet under it to mark effects (red - bloodied, black - prone, blue - marked, ect...) Another player handles keeping track of these marks. This doesn't stop the warlock from going "Ok... Is he bloodied? Is he cursed? Am I the closest? Oh, and my curse bonus from the minion that died last round... So that's these dice... Oh, and my curse dice, right..." Ect... I'm going to suggest to him at some point that he put this checklist on a card. By contrast, I have a card with a grid of my possible attack, damage & extra dice for all of my rogue's possible situations. That goes faster. I'm still a bit slow, but for me it's adding the dice, so I brought a calculator to speed that up (and I say the base number being added to the dice as I roll. "This is 25 plus..." Usually someone else at the table has it added before I do now. Though that doesn't stop me from trying.)

For my online group, we put most effects in the mini's names. {B} = Bloodied. [K] = Quarried by the player who'se name begins with K. A direction marker for marks...

I've had players take forever in both. However, I'd be against doing anything that might skip a player's actions. (I know some groups do that sort of thing.) I've already had some actions skipped by accident before when the initiative card holder assumes I'm gonna stay where I am or skip my minor action. (Usually just the minor action.) That's just not fun and causes backpedaling. So when I'm the initiative card holder, I ask players if they're done unless I saw them take all 4 possible actions. (You can't action point twice...) And in my online games, I have to handle initiative stuffs even though I'm DMing...

So even the best of preparations can result in some people taking longer than others.

[Kudaku]

Sounds like the warlock needs a firm whap over the head, preferably with something along the lines of a rolled-up magazine. Though I guess if the rest of the table is okay with him fumbling a bit then it's all good - each to his own. :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Whats your opinion on candy based opponents? I find them deliciously savory to slay!

[Panda-s1]

That having been said, the system is also quite clunky at points. Though I'm happy they got rid of the 2 skill points per level (Really, skills seems like one of the most obvious ways to flesh out a character and give his background an in-game effect - why would they limit this so sharply?), I still can't really get into the nature of Skill Challenges. I understand that it's a way to make characters with different trained skills be able to engage in social interaction - but it really just feels forced for me. At the moment I'm considering cutting it completely and let characters get by purely on their face skills (God help us all).

Skill challenges shouldn't be forced, they aren't even necessary. They're more for challenges that represent a bunch of skills clumped together, like navigating the ocean to avoid pirates. They weren't meant to replace all out-of-combat situations. In other words, use them when you think you should, I've gotten along fine that way.

[aivanther]

Go to a teacher supply store and pick up a white erase graph board, flip it horizontal, and put it on a card table. Voila, instant giant, erasable, battle map that's easy to redraw, etc.