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SSGoW
2009-06-23, 05:30 PM
Sooo is there anywhere in 4e that talks about flaws for the charcters so they will get feats? i haven't found anything about them yet but also what would be good 4e flaws (-1 skill to get one feat?)


not a negative 1 to a skill BUT getting rid of one skill all together :p lol

Mando Knight
2009-06-23, 05:37 PM
Flaws aren't in 4E at all right now. Probably because balancing them against each other and against the potential power of an extra feat is ridiculous.

SSGoW
2009-06-23, 05:39 PM
ok so how could you balance it

Gralamin
2009-06-23, 05:42 PM
ok so how could you balance it

Not very well. Flaws were nothing more then a Power-up in 3.5 most of the time. I'd recommend plain avoiding them.

Ent
2009-06-23, 05:44 PM
ok so how could you balance it

Take a feat that would be useful to the character and reverse it maybe? Improved Initiative, any +hit (that affects a power the character actually uses), or a +1 damage feat could all be easily changed into a "flaw".

NecroRebel
2009-06-23, 05:54 PM
Take a feat that would be useful to the character and reverse it maybe? Improved Initiative, any +hit (that affects a power the character actually uses), or a +1 damage feat could all be easily changed into a "flaw".

3.x did this, and more; most flaws were a mirror of a feat, except that the penalty from the flaw was 50% greater than the benefit from the feat. They were still brokenly powerful because you could penalize things that would never matter to you (for example, taking a penalty to melee attacks... on a Wizard). I suspect that this would be even worse in 4E, because it's much easier to completely exclude certain rules from your character (again using a penalty to melee attack rolls on a Wizard as an example).

To be honest, I suspect that the only way to make flaws meaningful would be to ensure that they're relevant to everyone. For example:

-4 max healing surges
-2 to hit points gained per level
-an at-will power
-one of your racial stat boosts
-one of your paragon path features (probably a level 11 one)
-your epic destiny utility power

Stuff like that. Big stuff, that you really have to think, "Well, I could take another feat, but is it worth it?" rather than the 3.5 "Hey, I could take another feat! Hell yeah!"

Kurald Galain
2009-06-23, 05:55 PM
ok so how could you balance it

You don't, really. It's too easy for players to take a penalty to something they're not actually using (e.g. to melee attacks for an archer) and replace it by a feat they're actually using.

See how easy it is for you to take feats that don't do anything for you. The same would go for flaws.

SSGoW
2009-06-23, 06:00 PM
hmmm i like necrorebel's idea

but maybe a -1 to the two stat boost your race gets

there could always be a rule that any flaw you use must actually effect your character? or maybe even somthing like -1 to two abilities and one must be a class focused ability score

Ent
2009-06-23, 06:00 PM
Yeah. With no racial ability penalties, the way the ability scores start and the way skills work I don't think they want PCs to be flawed in any way.

NecroRebel
2009-06-23, 06:10 PM
but maybe a -1 to the two stat boost your race gets

The penalty or loss of a stat boost is actually the most questionable of the ideas I posted, actually. It's possible for some characters for a feat to matter more than the stats; for example, a Tiefling Fighter gets a lot more out of an extra feat than their stat bonuses, and some builds might actually prefer to have the Bloodhunt trait and Infernal Wrath power than a Str boost that another race might achieve.

And of course many Dragonborn Warlocks I'm sure would love to lose the erroneous Str bonus for an extra feat.


there could always be a rule that any flaw you use must actually effect your character? or maybe even somthing like -1 to two abilities and one must be a class focused ability score

The problem that arises, then, is how do you define "actually affect your character?" Does giving enemies a bonus to saving throws really affect a Wizard? Does an axe-Fighter really care much for Dexterity? Even if you're listing every class that can take each given flaw, you'll still have the problem of people using unforseen builds that take advantage of flaws by bypassing their impact.

No, the only possible way to make flaws balanced is to make each and every one of them applicable to any character, taking away something that is important to everyone. Hence, hit points per level, healing surges (also questionable, as some don't use them much), at-will powers, or high-level character features.

Dragonmuncher
2009-06-23, 06:22 PM
You could always go with "traits," instead. Traits were a sort of extra feat and flaw all tied up in one. I'm a bit hazy on specifics, but there were traits like

-+10 movement speed, but -1 hp/level

-bonus to Intimidate, penalty to Diplomacy and Bluff

-+1 to a save, -1 to a different save

-+1 bonus to caster level in a certain school, -1 in all others


I always thought that Traits were neater than Flaws. They're harder to abuse, and make it easier to visualize a character concept.

(Ah, found the link in the SRD. Character Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#traitDescriptions)

Yakk
2009-06-23, 07:08 PM
I'm thinking of going with "Complications".

Complications are ways for your character to get the plot spotlight. I'd use the PC Complications to seed adventures, encounters and the like.

Ie, being a Lecher would be a "Complication" instead of a Flaw. So instead of it having a mechanical impact on your character, it would mean that your character being a Lech would have a certain chance of being important to the plot at some point.

You wouldn't get feats for this, naturally. You'd just get attention at the gaming table.

Mando Knight
2009-06-23, 07:36 PM
You could always go with "traits," instead. Traits were a sort of extra feat and flaw all tied up in one.

4E has background traits in FRPG, PHB II, Dragon 366, and (I think) EPG. Use those.

Lamech
2009-06-23, 07:45 PM
Let the DM choose the flaw! That always works.

"Okay the power gamer gets blind, the other guy gets dark temptation."
Power gamer: Sonofa
Other guy: Hey, Dark Absolution!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-06-23, 08:03 PM
I'm thinking of going with "Complications".

Complications are ways for your character to get the plot spotlight. I'd use the PC Complications to seed adventures, encounters and the like.

Ie, being a Lecher would be a "Complication" instead of a Flaw. So instead of it having a mechanical impact on your character, it would mean that your character being a Lech would have a certain chance of being important to the plot at some point.

You wouldn't get feats for this, naturally. You'd just get attention at the gaming table.
This is probably the best option. I mean, it does have the problem of usurping PC narrative power, but thems the breaks if you're going to mechanically model flaws rather than roleplay them.

If you must use Flaws, I would be willing to grant AP if the PC overcomes a situation where his Flaw comes into play. So, a Weak character that climbs a wall (where climbing a wall is an important part of the Encounter) would get a free AP. It is certainly useful, prevents munchkins from taking pointless Flaws, and still feeds the need for mechanical modeling.

Sliver
2009-06-24, 10:00 AM
I don't think I follow.. I understand the "flaw is a free powerup" in 3.5 but..
The way I see it is a person that is weeker then meele, instead of going for to be a fighter, choosing to be a wizard so that he overcomes his weakness and makes it not important.
Why should the flaw effect his most important thing? If you say that a flaw gives you a free power-up without a drawback, then so is allowing a player to asign the highest score to the most important stat while having a dump stat because he doesn't need it to be good at what he does. Then things like the array for stats is like flaws, you get the "power-up", say if you are a wizard and have high int, with no real drawback if you dump something like cha, because your build doesn't need it.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-24, 10:06 AM
Then things like the array for stats is like flaws, you get the "power-up", say if you are a wizard and have high int, with no real drawback if you dump something like cha, because your build doesn't need it.
Indeed. This is a problem in 4E: mechanically, all characters care only about two of their stats, perhaps three, and can safely dump the rest as far as the rules allow. It would not be problematic for, say, a wizard to dump his strength and dex and cha to four; this gives him a -3 on all str, dex and cha checks that he will never make in the first place. The same thing applies to literally all other 4E classes.

Note that I said "mechanically". From a RP perspective, you might want a slightly higher charisma, for instance. But if you want to take a flaw for the sake of roleplaying, you don't need to get a mechanical bonus for that.

Blackfang108
2009-06-24, 10:55 AM
Sooo is there anywhere in 4e that talks about flaws for the charcters so they will get feats? i haven't found anything about them yet but also what would be good 4e flaws (-1 skill to get one feat?)


not a negative 1 to a skill BUT getting rid of one skill all together :p lol

For story purposes, i was able to barter my DM into taking a -2 to Perception and Insight to take the Pact Initiate Feat.

SSGoW
2009-06-24, 11:08 AM
well i was thinking enstead of focusing your time training a skill (say you have five you decide to not train in the 5th one but you still have 1-4) you spent your time training with a feat...

also another thing could be to loose your free skills and if you want/need them then you have to use up the skills that you get through the class that are not free

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-24, 11:18 AM
What is your goal in requesting a flaw mechanic? What is the end result you desire? Do you want your character to be mechanically flawed, but get some kind of compensation, or are you looking for a bonus feat and a way to obtain it? Because the two are really very different.

If you're looking for option number one, give your character a story flaw, as mentioned above, and the gain an action point for over coming your story flaw, also mentioned above. Relatively minor, and does not interfere with the core balance of your character.

If you're looking for option number 2, you should stop. Don't try and squeeze out a bonus feat for a flaw, that was the way it worked in 3.Xe and the reason the designers got rid of flaws in the first place in 4e. When the goal is to power yourself up, and you're looking to power yourself down somewhere else to compensate, it kinda breaks the core balance of the game. The options listed above by Necro Rebel are all kinda iffy, though better than -1 trained skill. A Wizard might not need much HP in the right party - in fact, if that bonus feat he gets can be put towards, say, war wizardry, he can stay out of the battle entirely and miss his allies with his bonus feat. The same goes for -healing surges. Got an artificer in the party? He pools surges anyway, so your -3 or -4 isn't a huge deal. Its impossible for it to be blanket-balanced. If you really want to do this, talk it over on a case-by-case basis with your DM to find something you both agree on to offset the bonus feat.

SSGoW
2009-06-24, 01:29 PM
its actually not for me if it was i would have gave my character a rp flaw or a build flaw like making my dex or con lower on purpose but not getting the points to put into other places.

i was talking to one of my soon to be players about them and figured i would post on here for ideas

Burley
2009-06-24, 02:15 PM
I would suggest something along the lines of gaining a small ability for a random chance to get hosed at a crucial moment.
That's how I imagine Spellscars working. A minor benefit, but if I were to play one I'd force myself roll to confirm crits, or crits make me fall prone. Because whenever you get some crazy accidental arcane power, when you try to do something awesome, you end up getting hurt and jackin' yourself up.

valadil
2009-06-24, 02:41 PM
So instead of general flaws, how about flaws for races or classes? That should help ensure that the flaws are relevant to the character being played. i.e. -1 in melee would only be available to martial characters.

Arbitrarity
2009-06-24, 02:49 PM
Indeed. This is a problem in 4E: mechanically, all characters care only about two of their stats, perhaps three, and can safely dump the rest as far as the rules allow. It would not be problematic for, say, a wizard to dump his strength and dex and cha to four; this gives him a -3 on all str, dex and cha checks that he will never make in the first place. The same thing applies to literally all other 4E classes.


Untrue, wizards want Dex for Arcane Reach, and Wizard Implement Mastery (at least). Cha... is only useful for Spell Focus.
Feat prerequisites are a critical part of character planning, i.e. Eladrin make good Heavy Blade warlords, because their racial dex lets them spend just 3 points to get heavy blade mastery by epic.

Meek
2009-06-24, 02:55 PM
So instead of general flaws, how about flaws for races or classes? That should help ensure that the flaws are relevant to the character being played. i.e. -1 in melee would only be available to martial characters.

I think that's far too much effort. You have to be looking at and understanding all the classes and races to make appropriate flaws – -1 in melee for example wouldn't matter to a bow ranger or a crossbow rogue, both of which are martial, and who although not the most effective things in 4e, will appreciate the total freebie.

Mercenary Pen
2009-06-24, 02:58 PM
Maybe create class specific flaws, so your character is good at most bits of their standard class (and a little bit extra from the feat), but has one or two bits they just didn't get...

For example, a flaw for a fighter might be a -1 or a -2 to attack rolls for opportunity attacks (thus affecting their ability to do duty as a defender)

On the other hand, a wizard might a -2 to their arcana check under certain circumstances...

A rogue might have their sneak attack damage reduced to d4s by a flaw (including a ban on taking the backstabber feat)...

Mando Knight
2009-06-24, 02:59 PM
I would suggest something along the lines of gaining a small ability for a random chance to get hosed at a crucial moment.
That's how I imagine Spellscars working. A minor benefit, but if I were to play one I'd force myself roll to confirm crits, or crits make me fall prone. Because whenever you get some crazy accidental arcane power, when you try to do something awesome, you end up getting hurt and jackin' yourself up.

Confirm crits because you've got a Spellscar? That doesn't seem to be in line with having been scarred by a shard of pure magic...

...and they come with their own drawbacks. Having a spellscar causes you to take a -2 penalty on saving throws and defenses against the Spellplague or any other creature that's been affected by it. You do know when such a being is within 25' of you, though...

Eurantien
2009-06-24, 03:04 PM
I have a serious question. Why, at least in the heroic tier, would you WANT an extra feat? You get one every 2 levels, and most of them are underpowered. I play an eladrin warlock with a wizard multiclass and can find almost NO really useful feats anymore.

Mando Knight
2009-06-24, 03:06 PM
I have a serious question. Why, at least in the heroic tier, would you WANT an extra feat? You get one every 2 levels, and most of them are underpowered. I play an eladrin warlock with a wizard multiclass and can find almost NO really useful feats anymore.

Two words: Arcane Power. You'll find something in there you want. And if not, check the PHB II.

Jair Barik
2009-06-24, 03:07 PM
Flaws work in 3.5 because they penalise almost every character.
A wizard may still suffer from -2 range or -2 melee because it effects his touch attacks and polymorph forms. It won't effect specific wizards as badly but its not a case that it does nothing to the entire class

Sliver
2009-06-24, 03:15 PM
Isn't something like "sacrafice your highest (encounter/day) power known, every time you gain a higher level power, you may chose a power of the lower level intead" is more of a universal flaw and gives you something like "gain an extra use of 1 of your highest level power you may use"? Effectivly its just instead of choosing your highest level power known you choose one you already have again.. which doesn't sound really good unless there is something that if used twise is game breaking.. Meaning this idea is flawed, which sounds like the idea of.. flaws.. you can switch the gaining of extra use of power with a feat, or make it more one timed without scaling..

Eurantien
2009-06-24, 03:17 PM
I don't have PBII yet. Hadn't even realised it was even out XD. I'm going to start a thread devoted to useful arcane feats now.

kc0bbq
2009-06-24, 03:17 PM
Each flaw adds to the number of encounters to reach a milestone for that character.

You're penalized with longer periods of resurrection sickness, less AP, less magic item daily power uses.

Mando Knight
2009-06-24, 03:35 PM
Flaws work in 3.5 because they penalise almost every character.

The thing is, they don't. They don't penalize every character, and they definitely don't work. An archer who takes Noncombatant for Point Blank Shot gains a nice bonus to his main attack, while losing out on an attack type that, when played correctly, he should never have to use. Inattentive isn't painful for anyone who's going to be traveling with an Elf Ranger, Frail's fine for a mage who's got a big guy with a stick to hide behind, as is Feeble (the latter only hurts his Concentration and the few skills he's not going to use much anyway). Shaky's quite useable for a melee warrior who has a competent ranged character to take care of far-off enemies.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-24, 04:10 PM
Untrue, wizards want Dex for Arcane Reach, and Wizard Implement Mastery (at least).
Neither is necessary, and arcane reach at least is severely overrated.


Cha... is only useful for Spell Focus.
Which is a major part of the most powerful wizard build in existence at the moment, so your point is?


Feat prerequisites are a critical part of character planning,
No they're not, because in pretty much all cases it either is patently obvious what to aim for, or you simply get different feats if you use different stats.

Why do you think the rules need to artificially limit you to one stat below ten? Obviously that is needed because otherwise, it would be a mechanical improvement to dump three of your stats (far) below ten. Yes, a wizard with 20 int and 8 dex, cha and str (or even con!) is perfectly viable and is not noticeably weaker than other wizard builds as long as he pumps int and wis. Yes, the same applies to fighters and rogues (substituting other stats as needed) and the other classes as well. Yes, this is by design, too.



I have a serious question. Why, at least in the heroic tier, would you WANT an extra feat?
...that is actually a very good point. Even with Arcane Power out, I find myself hard pressed to keep all feat slots filled with something meaningful. It just takes a bit of realization that several of the feats that look awesome at first glance, like Burning Blizzard or Exp Spellbook, are really poor to mediocre in practice.