PDA

View Full Version : Chain Fighter



raptor1056
2009-06-23, 07:20 PM
So, I have, for quite some time, wanted to cut back and play the beater. However, my party always wants me to play the wizard, as I am the only one in the party who enjoys spellcasting characters. Recently, though, my DM has generated a no-magic game, leaving me the option of relaxing and beating some face. I want to play a spiked chain fighter, but don't really know what the best route to a character like this is. Note-- fighter may be misleading. I do not refer specifically to the class, but rather to a character who fights, regardless of base class. I simply assumed that fighter is the best route by which to reach this goal. So, my question is this: What is the best way to become a powerful spiked chain combatant?

AslanCross
2009-06-23, 07:32 PM
The only feats you absolutely need are Combat Expertise (req for Improved Trip), Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes.

Stand Still and Hold the Line help, but IMO are not absolutely necessary.

While Fighter accelerates the build due to bonus feats, you could also take Martial Adept levels---either Swordsage or Warblade---so you don't end up being a one-trick pony.

Warblade's class features would synergize well with the 13 Int you need to get Combat Expertise, which is required for Improved Trip, and also help you qualify for Fighter-only feats later (not that they're really important). Apart from that, Warblade doesn't offer much apart from Disarming Strike (which is another thing that a chain fighter can do quite well if you want lots of AOO-generating combat maneuvers).

Swordsage, on the other hand, would make for a much more MAD build, but it gives you easy access to the Shadow Hand discipline, and you can also afford to dump Strength, as the Shadow Blade feat adds your Dex bonus to damage rolls while in a Shadow Hand stance. Of course, you could just keep Strength and Dex high and get both your Str x1.5 bonus and your Dex bonus added to damage rolls. After all, it would be nice to trip your opponents and THEN whack them hard, so that when (and if) they get back up, they're a lot easier to kill.

FMArthur
2009-06-23, 07:35 PM
Step One: Large race or Powerful Build race
Step Two: EWP(Spiked Chain)
Step Three: Improved Trip
Step Four: Combat Reflexes
Step Five: Increase size and strength with magic
Step Six: Find ways to permanently increase size
Step Seven: Enter resession filled with Tumble and progressively larger, many-legged creatures

Keld Denar
2009-06-23, 07:36 PM
Um, PsyWar is often great of Spiked Chain wielders. Expansion + reach = LARGE area of lockdown. Unfortunately, as your size goes up, you dex goes down, which naturally inhibits Combat Reflexes. Luckily, PsyWar comes included with the Prowass power, which gives you an additional AoO at the low low cost of a couple PPs.

Other than that, a 2 level Crusader dip is fun. Ticket of Blades is wonderful when you can cover a large area, and that + Standstill makes it really tough for bad guys to move around you.

A lot of people will recommend Imp Trip, but honestly, stat wise and viability wise, its really not worth it, IMO, except in very medium-humanoid centric games as things tend to get too big and too strong too fast.

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-23, 07:36 PM
I'd say go with a half-ogre fighter with Combat Reflexes, making heavy use of Spring Attack. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)

ChaosDefender24
2009-06-23, 07:50 PM
Stand Still is incredible, Large and in Charge is less effective but you don't lose the ability to do damage

Ponce
2009-06-23, 08:13 PM
Goliath Fighter level 6, 2 Flaws

Dungeoncrasher Alternate Class Features

Flaw1: Power Attack
Flaw2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Level 1: Improved Bull Rush
Fighter: Knockback

Level 3: Combat Expertise

Fighter: Improved Trip

Level 6: Knock-Down

Get a free trip and bull rush against pretty much every opponent you attack.

Korivan
2009-06-23, 08:48 PM
forget the spiked chain...monk with vow of poverty...and if gestalt, fighter/monk with vow of poverty...i know...broken...but fun:smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2009-06-23, 08:53 PM
Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth, whose weapon is the spiked chain. Get free
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)
plus all good saves, and wings for flight.

Eldariel
2009-06-23, 08:59 PM
Don't forget Power Attack from your generic Spiked Chain-build; especially in no magic world, it's a golden source of damage. And yeah, either go Dungeoncrasher Fighter [Dungeonscape] with Knockback [RoS] or Driving Attack [PHBII], or go Fighter 2/Barbarian X for massive Str. Add Improved Trip + Knock-Down [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)] and Power Attack > Shock Trooper [CWar] > Leap Attack [CAdv], and you'll be fine.

The best option would of course be to get Martial Adept-levels as your primary levels. Fighter 6 (Dungeoncrasher)/Warblade 14 would be pretty nice, for example, or Barbarian 2 (Wolf-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) trading speed bonus for Pounce [CChampion])/Warblade 18 if Dungeoncrasher is unavailable.

Keld Denar
2009-06-23, 09:56 PM
forget the spiked chain...monk with vow of poverty...and if gestalt, fighter/monk with vow of poverty...i know...broken...but fun:smallbiggrin:

I see that you are new from your Druid thread yesterday, and thats cool and all. The only thing broken about a VoP Monk is the fact that it is totally terribad. Monk is bad, because its a poorly built class. VoP is bad because it cripples your character to lose access to the magical gear he needs to remain viable at many different levels of play. Combined, they aren't addative, but rather multaplicative. So, you have terribad^2, in all actuality. If you have any doubts about this, just do a forum search for either VoP or Monk (or both) and observe the HUGE laundry list of reasons, the foremost being that Monks are MORE dependant on gear than every other class in the game.

Just trying to help you learn the ropes!

Korivan
2009-06-23, 10:13 PM
I see that you are new from your Druid thread yesterday, and thats cool and all. The only thing broken about a VoP Monk is the fact that it is totally terribad. Monk is bad, because its a poorly built class. VoP is bad because it cripples your character to lose access to the magical gear he needs to remain viable at many different levels of play. Combined, they aren't addative, but rather multaplicative. So, you have terribad^2, in all actuality. If you have any doubts about this, just do a forum search for either VoP or Monk (or both) and observe the HUGE laundry list of reasons, the foremost being that Monks are MORE dependant on gear than every other class in the game.

Just trying to help you learn the ropes!

except in low-to-no magic campaigns:smallbiggrin:

And i know lots of people hate monks, think they suck, but hey, its not all about the numbers, like this guy, its about the style:smallcool:

Thanatos 51-50
2009-06-23, 10:19 PM
Every other poster has been adressing 3.x, but I don't think anybody has asked the important "What Edition?" question.

This is also where I point out that no-magic is entirely possible within 4e by simply removing and disallowing the Arcane power source.

Edit: Oh, yeah, 4e advice.
This advice assumes you have DDI or access to Dragon 372 (Playing Shadar-Kai) and the PhB2
1) Take a Martial Class. This is an absolute nessecity for Everything else listed.

You Want Spiked Chain Training at first level, this gives you proficency, and lets you treat the Chain as a light blade and a double weapon. This makes it viable for Rogues (As you can now use Sneak Attack), and you're now holding on to the best light blade in the PhB.

Humans will want to take Weapon Expertise (Light Blade), as well.
Shadar-Kai may or may not wish to take advantage of Expert Chainfighter (It looks pretty bleh to me.)

Regardless, picking up Weapon Expertise Light Blade (or Flail) is something all races will want to do by level 2, for obvious reasons.

Take the Power Swap Feat (Spiked Chain Novice) at Level 4. Seriously, guys, Chain Trip is an awesome power, which remains totally viable in the upper levels (Don't re-train it out!)
Spiked Chain Expert is a good thing to look at at level 6. If it's better than the Utility power your replacing it with, and I admit to not being very well-studied in utility powers at that level. (Fighters - it works well with Combat Challange, Rogues - it opens up Flanking at reach)
Remember, next time you can take a power, it's always possible to take a lower-level power of the same type, too. So if you really want Chain Ward and that Utility Power, you CAN get them both.

It should go without saying that I also heartily endorse completeing the Feat Tree with Spiked Chain Specialist, as the power it gives is pretty sweet, as well.

Other feats will heavily rely on your class, race, and role, but I encourage taking Vexing Flanker if you're a rogue, which, when combined with Chain Ward makes you Everyone's flanking buddy and greatly encourages people to let you flank a high-value target.

Curmudgeon
2009-06-23, 10:19 PM
except in low-to-no magic campaigns:smallbiggrin: If there's really no magic, do note that many benefits of Vow of Poverty don't work, either. AC Bonus, Exalted Strike, Deflection, and Damage Reduction are all Supernatural. Plus all Exalted feats are Supernatural as well.

Vow of Poverty sucks without magic, too.

Faleldir
2009-06-23, 10:23 PM
except in low-to-no magic campaigns:smallbiggrin:
You didn't say anything about psionics... Monk2/Psiwarrior18 does it better with no items and the same flavor.:smallbiggrin:
Oh no, not another Monk thread! The last one isn't even locked yet!

Keld Denar
2009-06-23, 10:51 PM
Its ok. I just wanted him to know that in general, in an advice thread, its generally bad form to give the worst possible advice...possible.

And flavor/style is completely independant of character build. I've seen well built characters played masterfully, and I've seen poorly built characters with "style" poorly roleplayed. I've also seen the converse.

Again, this is friendly criticism. Posting hear is fun, but giving bad advice generally confuses people. VoP is bad in nearly every situation. It just is. Others have expounded on it WAY better than I could here. Take a look yourself.

Myrmex
2009-06-24, 01:26 AM
Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth, whose weapon is the spiked chain. Get free
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)
plus all good saves, and wings for flight.

And, more importantly, spells. Otherwise, fighter 4 gets you the same things, but with a bigger HD and more BAB for power attacking.

sofawall
2009-06-24, 01:30 AM
Fighter lacks saves and wings.

Myrmex
2009-06-24, 01:39 AM
Fighter lacks saves and wings.

Fighter is a 4 level class.

Zaq
2009-06-24, 01:52 AM
Dungeoncrasher Fighter is a 6 level class.

Fixed, if I might be so bold.

Triaxx
2009-06-24, 01:07 PM
Nah, you want to fight with a chain, in a game without crowd control, or save-or-x's? Then you want this:

Human Fighter, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Combat Reflexes.

Now you can wade into the fray and leave a massive wake of destruction, because Cleave works even after an AoO.

Faleldir
2009-06-24, 01:19 PM
If you have high DEX and a ton of feats, you could dual-wield kusari-gama and take Double Hit for even more AOO goodness.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-24, 07:01 PM
Human Rog 1: Exotic weapon prof, Jotunbrud
Ftr 1: Combat expertise
Ftr 2: Imp. Trip, Combat ref
Ftr 4: Vexing flanker +4 when flanking
Ftr 5: Adaptable flanker Grant flanking form any square you threaten
Ftr 6: Deft Opportunist +4 on AOO
Ftr8: Vae School (drow of underdark), Weapon focus (prereq for Vae school)
After this, I'd have gone exotic weapon master. I wrote this character up level 9, but never played past 5.

Notes:
-The rogue level was more for the skill points, and the fact that the party rogue was inexperienced. Rather than tell him what to do, I just did it, and had him learn by example.

-Also, this char, while fairly hardhitting, does not have power attack. Thus, no cleave. This is normally a weakness, but the party I was in had 2 other characters with much higher attack bonuses, and far more damage per hit. I was there for the lockdown build and as support. Like giving the entire party flanking bonuses against the 2 Fang Dragons, AND alternately granting the goliath knight or neanderthal barbarian an extra +2 to hit with the Aid another option. I needed a 19 or 20 to hit for damage, and never bothered trying opposed strength checks against either dragon.

-If you're going to do tripping, then get the skill tricks which allow you to stand from prone as soon as possible. Once you've got those, you can lock your gauntlet to your weapon, preventing a fumble from causing you to drop it, or from getting disarmed if you fail your trip attempt. Now you just fall and stand as a free action (no AOO)

-If you're human sized, tripping gets subpar around level 10 (depending on DM), because monsters get a +4 for every size category larger than you. And their strength goes through the roof, faster than you can buff with items or level increases. Though a half ogre warhulk, would give you that bonus to strength, at the cost of several other things.

-In rules compendium, it says that you CAN trip flying creatures.

Edit: Here's the link to the thread where I was originally discussing this build
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93094

Edit the Edit: Jotunbrud is a human only feat in Faerun. You count as large when it is beneficial to you, such as grapple, trip, sunder, and deciding if there's enough room in the purple worms stomach for you or not.

Keld Denar
2009-06-24, 07:24 PM
Build above is pretty good. The 1 level of rogue is nice in that it qualifies you for Staggering Strike from Complete Warrior. If you can get your damage up high enough, your opponent can't make the save, and therefore every hit causes your foe to be aflicted by the Staggered condition, which is essentially Slowed. Thats great!

#Raptor
2009-06-24, 07:29 PM
Another race option would be the Goliath.
A regular goliath just got powerful build, but a raging goliath barbarian (with the racial substitution level in RoS) actually becomes large - and gets the extra reach... and +6 str for raging, instead of the normal +4.
So, take extra rage for raging 3 times/day and go to town.

The only drawbacks are LA 1 and -2 dex.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-24, 07:58 PM
Build above is pretty good. The 1 level of rogue is nice in that it qualifies you for Staggering Strike from Complete Warrior. If you can get your damage up high enough, your opponent can't make the save, and therefore every hit causes your foe to be aflicted by the Staggered condition, which is essentially Slowed. Thats great!

I totally didn't think of that one, or anything else which utilized sneak attack as a prereq. Sweet.
So that also opens up Craven as a good source of damage at high levels. +1 damage per character level on a hit when you sneak attack. And there's Vae School making it more important that you gain a sneak attack/flank than before.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-06-25, 12:24 AM
Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth, whose weapon is the spiked chain. Get free
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)
plus all good saves, and wings for flight.

No spellcasting original poster say. No magic.:smallbiggrin:

Origomar
2009-06-25, 12:32 AM
I'd say go with a half-ogre fighter with Combat Reflexes, making heavy use of Spring Attack. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)

lol i was just waiting for that.

Anxe
2009-06-25, 12:54 AM
Swashbucklers from Complete Warrior get free proficiency with spiked chain. Might be a good idea to take your first level there.

EDIT:
No they don't?

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 12:58 AM
Swashbucklers from Complete Warrior get free proficiency with spiked chain. Might be a good idea to take your first level there.

No they don't?

Anxe
2009-06-25, 01:05 AM
No they don't?

I have a horrible memory and should be ashamed of myself.

sofawall
2009-06-25, 01:10 AM
Swashbucklers from Complete Warrior get free proficiency with spiked chain. Might be a good idea to take your first level there.



No, they do not. Why did you think they did?

EDIT: Oh, wow, ninja. Skilled edit+post combination defeats me.

Curmudgeon
2009-06-25, 02:25 AM
No spellcasting original poster say. No magic.:smallbiggrin:
So? I only pointed out non-magical qualities of the Favored Soul. I could have also added energy resistance to the list. Without magic, flight and energy resistance are pretty rare commodities for PCs. How's a Fighter going to get those?

raptor1056
2009-06-26, 11:00 AM
Ok, cool stuff, but what would be the best way to do this all SRD? I don;t really have access to a ton of books.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 11:10 AM
1/2 Giant (SRD) PsyWar20 (also SRD). Take EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Deep Impact, and a few other useful feats. Take Expansion, Prowass, Force Screen, Psionic Lions Charge, Greater Concealing Amorpha and Psionic Freedom of Movement and a few others.

You should be pretty good with just that.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-26, 01:12 PM
Don't forget Stand Still. It's not vital if you have Imp Trip, but it will keep the big, 8-legged bruisers away from the squishies and pointed at you.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 01:41 PM
Don't forget Stand Still. It's not vital if you have Imp Trip, but it will keep the big, 8-legged bruisers away from the squishies and pointed at you.

+1...always forget that one. Its in the SRD as well.

HP McLuvin
2009-06-26, 02:22 PM
Human Rog 1: Exotic weapon prof, Jotunbrud.Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but EWP requires a BAB of +1, which a level 1 Rogue does not get. I'm sure a little re-jigging of the feat selection can counter this...just thought it needed pointing out.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-26, 02:30 PM
Yah, you're right, was copying from my character sheet.
Swap combat expertise for EWP.

koldstare
2009-06-26, 03:00 PM
The Horizon Tripper idea (attributed to Saph) is a great build.
Ranger 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker X(6-7 for best abilities) is a really fun build

Take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, EWP spiked chain, power attack, etc

Its fun and the best part core only.

Edit: Alternately(non core) you could do Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Ranger 1/Horizon Walker 6/Telflammer Shadowlord 4/etc...
At 16th level you can take quicken spell like abiltiy ability and get 2 full attacks a round (once every 1d4 rounds + your shadow walk abiltiy.) You can add a level of barbarian with the sprit lion totem alternate class feature for pounce as well.

Outside of core though the best spiked chain fighter i ever made was Human Ranger 3/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Horizon Walker 1/Cavestalker 4/etc...

Using a spiked chain in each hand(via oversized two weapon fighting) and Power Attacking while raging is really fun.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-26, 03:43 PM
How can you fight using a spiked chain in one hand?
Plus you forgot Exotic weapon master. A must for any chain or urgrosh fighter.

EDIT: Whatever the method used, 2 greatswords will deal more damage and be equal cheese. And be less feat intensive, because now you don't need your lockdown build, which can be a good 6-8 feats itself. In addition to the TWF tree, and everything needed for the spiked chain.

Gamerlord
2009-06-26, 03:46 PM
So, I have, for quite some time, wanted to cut back and play the beater. However, my party always wants me to play the wizard, as I am the only one in the party who enjoys spellcasting characters. Recently, though, my DM has generated a no-magic game, leaving me the option of relaxing and beating some face. I want to play a spiked chain fighter, but don't really know what the best route to a character like this is. Note-- fighter may be misleading. I do not refer specifically to the class, but rather to a character who fights, regardless of base class. I simply assumed that fighter is the best route by which to reach this goal. So, my question is this: What is the best way to become a powerful spiked chain combatant?


Are there chain devils in this campaign? Because if so a chain fighter might not be the best idea....

herrhauptmann
2009-06-26, 07:59 PM
Are you suggesting he play as a Chain Devil?
It's low magic, so I doubt that planar creatures are playable races. Also the ECL on those things is usually pretty bad.

Teron
2009-06-26, 08:09 PM
He's referring to chain devils' ability to turn the chain fighter's weapon against him, but that's a pretty specific scenario that doesn't warrant too much concern.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-26, 09:00 PM
Ahh...
Ooh, that's evil.
By the way, I recommend against the Master of Chains PrC.

JonestheSpy
2009-06-26, 09:15 PM
I cannot believe no one's mentioned whirlwind attack. I mean, come on, every target in a 10' radius? Especially if you've got a way to get into the middle of a crowd of enemies - 24 possible targets.

Belkar would explode with jealousy.

Admittedly, this is better if fighting large numbers of not-so-powerful-individually enemies, not single BBEG's. But still one of the best reasons to go Chain, imho.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 09:21 PM
Admittedly, this is better if fighting large numbers of not-so-powerful-individually enemies, not single BBEG's.

Thats exactly why no one has mentioned WW attack. You give up too much, have to take crappy prereq feats, and are still terribad.

Making iteratives is almost always a better idea. 1 dead foe is better than 3+ pissed off living foes. If you are putting yourself in a position where you can actually make 24 attacks, you are either freeskating the encounter, and you'd be better served by Great Cleave (also a bad feat) or you are about 6 seconds from dying a terrible stabbity death.

WW Attack looks WAY better on paper than it does in a real game. Trust us.

koldstare
2009-06-26, 10:22 PM
How can you fight using a spiked chain in one hand?
Plus you forgot Exotic weapon master. A must for any chain or urgrosh fighter.


Cavestalker 4 (Drow of the Underdark) gives you proficiency with spiked chain and the ability to use it in one hand, assuming you have the two weapon fighting path of a ranger

As far as EWM, its great. My builds rarely go to 20 simply because the majority of the time I don't play games to 20.

Though I did play the Horizon Tripper to 22
Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Horizon Walker 6/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10
My end BAB suffered a bit (+ 17), and i may not have been the most powerful character in the party(3rd out of 6 i would say) but was fun as hell to play

ericgrau
2009-06-27, 03:48 AM
Trip, disarm and deal damage. Thanks to the reach, etc. you don't provoke AoO's so you can get moving even without the feats. So if you think a certain tactic doesn't work on a lot of monsters you face, then you can skip the feat and still use the special attack when it would be an easy check to make. If enemies try to get past you, grab combat reflexes. If this is rare, then that feat is a lower priority.

Due to the spike chain's low damage and your inability to increase its damage much in a low magic setting, I'll actually agree on grabbing power attack for this particular case. Still don't underestimate the effect of AB penalties or bonuses on hitting, and grab weapon focus.

Basically be versatile. Trip when you can, disarm when you can, deal damage when you can, make AoO's when you can and do things completely unrelated to the spike chain when you can. Even without the feat. But if it happens a lot, grab the feat.

Triaxx
2009-06-27, 06:07 AM
Great Cleave is not a bad feat. Like all so-called 'bad feats' it's all in how you use it. (Except Monkey Grip which flat out doesn't do anything.)

Great Cleave is not for going toe-to-toe with heavy monsters, which won't go down in one hit. Great Cleave is not for beating down BBEG's. Great Cleave, like Whirlwind Attack, is for those situations when you have a large number of weakened or weak foes charging at you. The sort that have already taken arrows, or a sneak attack.

Whirlwind is not for the 'optimal' use of hitting those surrounding you, but for punching a hole through the defensive line to get at the squishies, like archers.

Want to lock down the enemies more effectively? Prove that to get to the damage dealers, such as the rogues and... others, that they have to stop and deal with you, or they will die. Without magic to boost the power of the Spiked Chain, you have to have power attack for extra damage. And as long as you have the bonus for it being two-handed, you might as well take advantage. On the other hand, you could use a high-dex fighter, and weapon finesse, but strength is much easier to work with.

And I for one would rather take a small bonus to get multiple high bonus attacks than multiple attacks with a plummeting bonus.

Eldariel
2009-06-27, 06:29 AM
Great Cleave is not a bad feat. Like all so-called 'bad feats' it's all in how you use it. (Except Monkey Grip which flat out doesn't do anything.)

...no, it's a bad feat. Bad feat isn't something that doesn't have any uses (although those do exist, such as your mention of Monkey Grip), bad feat is something that has few, rare uses. Basically a bad feat is a feat that doesn't give you a significant benefit.

Great Cleave is one of those feats. Cleave is a decent feat; as long as you take care of your positioning in combat, chances are you'll kill a guy at some point and get the extra attack (as long as you don't face too many solitary opponents). Compared to feats you use all the time, Cleave is still lacklusterish since it requires you to be facing multiple opponents and multiple opponents close enough to reach other to threaten them, and to score the lethal blow on one guy. Still, it gets you an extra attack relatively often even against opponents of relevant.

Now though, take Great Cleave. It not only has the above prerequisites; you need to have three or more guys within reach and be able to deal lethal damage to at least two of them. If that's the case often, the opponents are generally trivial mooks. You can mow them down with iteratives + Cleave just fine. Not to mention, you are really in no hurry as they are mooks, they aren't doing much.

But point is, if you're facing down opponents you could Great Cleave, you generally don't either need to kill them or can kill them just fine without Great Cleave. The situations where you could do better with Great Cleave compared to Cleave just are so far and few between outside a campaign specifically built to make Great Cleave useful that Great Cleave mostly results in you wasting a feat. The only exception are specific "kill armies"-campaigns, where you need to kill armies of low-level **** every encounter.

In such cases, picking Great Cleave may be smart, and that's a damn specific campaign.

Things you need to use Great Cleave:
-3 or more opponents within reach.
-All of them so low on HP you can one-hit KO them.
-All of them so dangerous you need to kill them with that one attack.
-Insufficient iteratives available to kill them with Cleave.

And this needs to happen every encounter in the campaign for Great Cleave to be worth it.


Great Cleave is not for going toe-to-toe with heavy monsters, which won't go down in one hit. Great Cleave is not for beating down BBEG's. Great Cleave, like Whirlwind Attack, is for those situations when you have a large number of weakened or weak foes charging at you. The sort that have already taken arrows, or a sneak attack.

Whirlwind is not for the 'optimal' use of hitting those surrounding you, but for punching a hole through the defensive line to get at the squishies, like archers.

...why do you need Whirlwind Attack for that again? Even disregarding the fact that you need to waste 3 feats to even get to it, Whirlwind Attack is a full-round action that allows you to attack every enemy within reach.

How often do you honestly need more than a standard full attack + cleaves to kill all the squishies in your way? 'cause I'll wager it's not often enough to warrant a feat.


Want to lock down the enemies more effectively? Prove that to get to the damage dealers, such as the rogues and... others, that they have to stop and deal with you, or they will die. Without magic to boost the power of the Spiked Chain, you have to have power attack for extra damage. And as long as you have the bonus for it being two-handed, you might as well take advantage. On the other hand, you could use a high-dex fighter, and weapon finesse, but strength is much easier to work with.

Or, y'know, Trip them. 'cause then they can't move to the squishies. And they are taking extra damage.

mikethepoor
2009-06-27, 08:43 AM
Has anyone mentioned the dragonchain from Red Hand of Doom yet? Smaller damage die, but larger threat range and you can grapple with it, while retaining reach and trip abilities.

Coidzor
2009-06-27, 09:30 AM
Has anyone mentioned the dragonchain from Red Hand of Doom yet? Smaller damage die, but larger threat range and you can grapple with it, while retaining reach and trip abilities.

Not yet as far as I've read, though it can also constrict for 1d8!

doesn't have the same bonuses to disarm, but, that's kinda a given with the grappling option.