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RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-23, 09:02 PM
So starting a new game and i wanted to play a TOB character. Gonna play a Changling this is for an Eberron game but i had a few questions.

1. A warblades ability to refocus Weapon focus and feats like that does it work for Exotic weapon proficiencies?
2. What would you recomend for a changling TOB character warblade or swordsage? I was thinking about taking a few of the diamond mind maneuvers as i like them.
3. Any advice in general about playing a TOB character?

Thanks all

Swooper
2009-06-23, 10:12 PM
1. Yes.
2. Whichever you like, they are both pretty strong classes and fun to play. Warblades are more heavy-duty-melee types with their d12 HD and medium armour, while swordsages are the hit-and-run mobile lightly armoured combatants. Warblades have an int dependency while swordsages benefit more from wisdom. I don't think the changeling race favours either of them in particular.
3. For swordsages, always take the Adaptive Style feat. It changes "spend a round to regain one manoeuvre" to "spend a round to regain all your manoeuvres, and change the ones you have readied while you're at it". Consider it with warblades, but it's not as essential for them due to their much better built in recovery mechanic ("spend a swift action, hit something and get your used manoeuvres back"). Try to pick a school or two and stick to it, if you spread yourself too thin you're not going to be able to catch the prerequisites on higher level manoeuvres. This is especially true with warblades, since they get so few manoeuvres known. If you're going to focus on Diamond Mind, remember to keep Concentration maxed out, lots of good manoeuvres depend on it.

Tome of Battle is awesome. Have fun with it. :smallcool:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 10:25 PM
1. A warblades ability to refocus Weapon focus and feats like that does it work for Exotic weapon proficiencies?

Any feat that uses a particular weapon is eligible.


2. What would you recomend for a changling TOB character warblade or swordsage? I was thinking about taking a few of the diamond mind maneuvers as i like them.

Changelings don't get a particular benefit from either one, so it's up to personal preference. However, definitely go for Diamond Mind, as it's one of the better (and more awesome) disciplines.


3. Any advice in general about playing a TOB character?

In addition to what Swooper said, there are a few other things to keep in mind:

1) You don't need a prestige class. Other than the ones in ToB itself, no prestige classes advance maneuvers or full IL, so while fighters should PrC as soon as possible, martial adepts definitely should not.

2) Don't just go for strikes. Boosts and counters are as important (or even more so) than strikes, as they buff you and help your defenses and otherwise set you apart but any old melee type can smack things for lots of damage.

lsfreak
2009-06-23, 10:38 PM
And never underestimate a one or two-level dip in one of the other classes. A warblade with a couple levels in Crusader, for example, gets a second pool of 5 maneuvers and two new stances that are more tank-oriented, and adds 5 damage to all attacks made after being attacked.

Iirc, a standard tactic with Warblade is to take a 2-level dip in something else (fighter, another ToB class) to delay their stance at 10th level so that one can pick up a 6th-level stance rather than a mere 3rd-level one.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-23, 10:47 PM
Iirc, a standard tactic with Warblade is to take a 2-level dip in something else (fighter, another ToB class) to delay their stance at 10th level so that one can pick up a 6th-level stance rather than a mere 3rd-level one.

Reminds me of a similar strategy--since you add half of any other levels to your IL in a given class, you can play a warblade and wait until a high-ish level to take a level of fighter and a level of swordsage. Swordsage nets you 6 maneuvers and 1 stance of high-ish level, and fighter gives you Martial Study or Martial Stance to learn a single maneuver or stance at your warblade IL.

Even though you can't recover the swordsage and warblade maneuvers at the same time, getting 8 mid-to-high levels maneuvers in 2 levels isn't anything to sneeze at; if you pick occasionally-useful maneuvers (like the Shadow Hand teleporting ones) that you'll only use once per combat anyway, you can get some versatility without sacrificing the really good warblade maneuvers.

lsfreak
2009-06-23, 10:55 PM
Reminds me of a similar strategy--since you add half of any other levels to your IL in a given class, you can play a warblade and wait until a high-ish level to take a level of fighter and a level of swordsage. Swordsage nets you 6 maneuvers and 1 stance of high-ish level, and fighter gives you Martial Study or Martial Stance to learn a single maneuver or stance at your warblade IL.

Just to clarify, your first stance is *always* 1st level, no matter your initiator level, because it specifically lists it as such under the class features. Your second stance would be the high-level one. Of course, there are enough useful 1st-level stances (Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, Flame's Blessing, Step of the Wind) that it's not really wasted.

Keld Denar
2009-06-23, 11:22 PM
What level are you starting at? If 1st or 2nd, and you are a Warblade, you GOTTA take Steel Wind. Its like, one of the single best maneuver in the game for the first 4 levels or so. 2 attacks at highest iterative? Yes! And you still get to take a move action! WOOOO! This is really good at a level where you can 1hit kill a lot of minion type enemies. 3rd level opens up Emerald Razor, which is fun to combine with Power Attack and is still effective through about level 7-8 when that 2nd iterative starts really coming into play.

I'm playing a Goliath Warblade1/Ftr2(Dungeoncrasher)/Warblade2 in a game right now, and he's totally sweet. Knockback is so much fun to use with Emerald Razor and full PA to literally send foes flying up to 20' feet.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-24, 01:27 AM
Just to clarify, your first stance is *always* 1st level, no matter your initiator level, because it specifically lists it as such under the class features. Your second stance would be the high-level one. Of course, there are enough useful 1st-level stances (Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, Flame's Blessing, Step of the Wind) that it's not really wasted.

Incorrect, it specifies that your first stance at character creation is always 1st level. If your first level in a ToB class is gained any time after your 1st level, it is not gained during character creation and you can choose a stance based on what would be available for your IL.


Warblade is more focused on combat, whereas Swordsage makes a much more versatile character. If you can use the Arcane Swordsage variant under the 'Adaptation' heading on page 20, then definitely go with that one. It can be extremely overpowered, and remember that armor that has no armor check penalty has no drawback for a nonproficient wearer.

If you're going to multiclass at all, I'd recommend Warshaper 2, using your racial Minor Change Shape ability to activate its class features.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-24, 06:29 AM
Thanks all for your feed back.

lsfreak: I didn't think of that... i may take two levels of sword sage even though it will be a bit mad.


Keld Denar: unfortunatly first level... Though steal wind is on my list of to takes.

I think if i went sword sage i may go with a fire and ice type character and focus on purely desert wind and shadow hand... Prolly play him up as a fire and ice mage of some sort... are the ranged Desert wind maneuvers any good?

Person_Man
2009-06-24, 09:01 AM
1. A warblades ability to refocus Weapon focus and feats like that does it work for Exotic weapon proficiencies?

Yes. This link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) may help you:

The Full List of Potentially Useful Exotic Weapons

Braid Blade: Dungeon 120: 1d3, 18-20, x2. On a full attack, allows you to make an extra attack at -5, or -2 if you have 5 ranks of Tumble.

Collapsing Crescent Fan: Sandstorm, p. 96: +4 to attack any flat-footed foe. Great when combined with Iaijutsu Focus.

Composite Greatbow: Complete Warrior: Does 1d10 damage and has a 130 ft range increment. So this a good long ranged weapon for pure damage dealing.

Elven Courtblade: Races of the Wild: 1d10, 18-20 *2. Slightly less damage then the Jovar. But this two handed weapon can be used for both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

Flindbar: Monster Manual III: +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit.

Foot Spike: Races of the Wild: Yet another place to hide a weapon, just in case your DM decides to have your party taken prisoner.

Glot: Frostburn: Can be used to make ranged trip attacks, and deals better damage then bolas or barbed bolas.

Goad: Frostburn: Reach weapon that deals non-lethal damage, in case you ever want to capture someone without killing them. Also gives you +2 to Handle Animal checks against Huge or bigger animals.

Greathammer: Monster Manual 4 or Races of Stone: 1d12, 19-20/x4 or just 20/x4, depending on which version you use. Also gives you +2 to Sunder a weapon or shield, but sundering your future treasure is generally a bad idea.

Harpoon: Frostburn: A harpooned creature moves at half speed, cannot charge or run, and if you attach a rope to it you can limit their movement away from you. It can be removed with a full round action, which deals damage again. Occasionally helpful for battlefield control. Or you can enchant it with Returning, and have a double damage ranged attack.

Ice Axe: Frostburn: +4 to Climb checks.

Jovar: Planar Handbook: 2d6, 18-20, *2. With high damage and a high threat range, this is your is a respectable pure damage dealing weapon. Buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges.

Kaorti weapons: Fiend Folio web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a): *ANY* weapon can be made out of kaorti, which gives it a crit multiplier of x4. You need an EWP for a kaorti version of a weapon (even if it is already exotic), but... hey, no problem for Haberdash! Combine with a Keen Elven Courtblade or something similar for a ridiculous crit. Of course, this is a ridiculously exotic weapon, as you need to convince an Evil Outsider to make it for you (or accept the +4 LA to be a Kaorti yourself). My suggestion is that you invest in Knowledge (Planes), and ask your DM for a side quest to get one.

Lance (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lance): Not exotic, but everyone who is proficient should keep one on their mount. You never know when double damage from a charge might come in handy.

Lasso: Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 34: Using a lasso is a ranged touch attack that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 on Dex (no Save).

Longstaff: Complete Adventurer: If you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise while using this weapon, you can’t be flanked. Screw you Rogues!

Mancatcher: Complete Warrior: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Also, as long as your enemy can’t reach you, they can’t attack you or do anything other then attempt to move or escape from the grapple.

Net (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Net) (PHB): Using a net is a ranged touch attack (maximum range of 10 feet) that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 to Dex, 1/2 movement, and you can’t charge or run (no Save).

Orc Shotput: Sword & Fist, p. 71: One of the best thrown weapons in the game: 2d6 damage, 19-20 crit, x3 multiplier. Add some Master Thrower for extra fun.

Pincer Staff: Underdark: Basically a mancatcher that deals more damage.

Razor Net: Dragon Compendium, p. 115: All the hassle of a regular net, and it does 1d6 damage.

Ritiik: Frostburn: If you successfully hit an enemy, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt. Basically a weaker version of Knock-Down for free.

Scorpion Claws: +4 to Grapple checks. The bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with Improved Grapple. They're also light weapons, so no Power Attack, but yes for TWF. Sandstorm.

Sharktooth Staff: Savage Species: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Unlike the mancatcher or pincer staff, it has no reach. But it deals the best damage. It’s also worth mentioning that they each have size restrictions.

Spiked Chain: PHB: Useful if you have a ton of reach and a potent magic weapon with an AoO build. But most of the time you can just use a glaive and a 5 ft step. If you're really in a pinch, use armor spikes.

Spinning Sword: Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Useful if you want to be a sword and board build, or a TWF build.

Sugliin: Frostburn: Does 2d8 damage, but it’s a full round action to make 1 attack. But hey, until you get to +6 BAB, this is your weapon of choice for pure damage dealing when you’re already standing next to your enemy.

Whip Dagger: Drow of the Underdark: 15 feet of reach, which might be helpful on occasion. You can also use it with the Whip Climber Skill Trick to do Indiana Jones-ish swinging.



2. What would you recomend for a changling TOB character warblade or swordsage? I was thinking about taking a few of the diamond mind maneuvers as i like them.

Each is good in their own respect. What ECL are you starting at? How high do you expect the game to go? What books are allowed?



3. Any advice in general about playing a TOB character?

Read this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683941), this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=887398), and especially this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680285).

If you pick a few schools that you really like and your style of play, then we can give you advice on the best manuevers and stances.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-24, 12:16 PM
Yes. This link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) may help you:

The Full List of Potentially Useful Exotic Weapons

Braid Blade: Dungeon 120: 1d3, 18-20, x2. On a full attack, allows you to make an extra attack at -5, or -2 if you have 5 ranks of Tumble.

Collapsing Crescent Fan: Sandstorm, p. 96: +4 to attack any flat-footed foe. Great when combined with Iaijutsu Focus.

Composite Greatbow: Complete Warrior: Does 1d10 damage and has a 130 ft range increment. So this a good long ranged weapon for pure damage dealing.

Elven Courtblade: Races of the Wild: 1d10, 18-20 *2. Slightly less damage then the Jovar. But this two handed weapon can be used for both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

Flindbar: Monster Manual III: +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit.

Foot Spike: Races of the Wild: Yet another place to hide a weapon, just in case your DM decides to have your party taken prisoner.

Glot: Frostburn: Can be used to make ranged trip attacks, and deals better damage then bolas or barbed bolas.

Goad: Frostburn: Reach weapon that deals non-lethal damage, in case you ever want to capture someone without killing them. Also gives you +2 to Handle Animal checks against Huge or bigger animals.

Greathammer: Monster Manual 4 or Races of Stone: 1d12, 19-20/x4 or just 20/x4, depending on which version you use. Also gives you +2 to Sunder a weapon or shield, but sundering your future treasure is generally a bad idea.

Harpoon: Frostburn: A harpooned creature moves at half speed, cannot charge or run, and if you attach a rope to it you can limit their movement away from you. It can be removed with a full round action, which deals damage again. Occasionally helpful for battlefield control. Or you can enchant it with Returning, and have a double damage ranged attack.

Ice Axe: Frostburn: +4 to Climb checks.

Jovar: Planar Handbook: 2d6, 18-20, *2. With high damage and a high threat range, this is your is a respectable pure damage dealing weapon. Buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges.

Kaorti weapons: Fiend Folio web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a): *ANY* weapon can be made out of kaorti, which gives it a crit multiplier of x4. You need an EWP for a kaorti version of a weapon (even if it is already exotic), but... hey, no problem for Haberdash! Combine with a Keen Elven Courtblade or something similar for a ridiculous crit. Of course, this is a ridiculously exotic weapon, as you need to convince an Evil Outsider to make it for you (or accept the +4 LA to be a Kaorti yourself). My suggestion is that you invest in Knowledge (Planes), and ask your DM for a side quest to get one.

Lance (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lance): Not exotic, but everyone who is proficient should keep one on their mount. You never know when double damage from a charge might come in handy.

Lasso: Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 34: Using a lasso is a ranged touch attack that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 on Dex (no Save).

Longstaff: Complete Adventurer: If you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise while using this weapon, you can’t be flanked. Screw you Rogues!

Mancatcher: Complete Warrior: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Also, as long as your enemy can’t reach you, they can’t attack you or do anything other then attempt to move or escape from the grapple.

Net (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Net) (PHB): Using a net is a ranged touch attack (maximum range of 10 feet) that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 to Dex, 1/2 movement, and you can’t charge or run (no Save).

Orc Shotput: Sword & Fist, p. 71: One of the best thrown weapons in the game: 2d6 damage, 19-20 crit, x3 multiplier. Add some Master Thrower for extra fun.

Pincer Staff: Underdark: Basically a mancatcher that deals more damage.

Razor Net: Dragon Compendium, p. 115: All the hassle of a regular net, and it does 1d6 damage.

Ritiik: Frostburn: If you successfully hit an enemy, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt. Basically a weaker version of Knock-Down for free.

Scorpion Claws: +4 to Grapple checks. The bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with Improved Grapple. They're also light weapons, so no Power Attack, but yes for TWF. Sandstorm.

Sharktooth Staff: Savage Species: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Unlike the mancatcher or pincer staff, it has no reach. But it deals the best damage. It’s also worth mentioning that they each have size restrictions.

Spiked Chain: PHB: Useful if you have a ton of reach and a potent magic weapon with an AoO build. But most of the time you can just use a glaive and a 5 ft step. If you're really in a pinch, use armor spikes.

Spinning Sword: Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Useful if you want to be a sword and board build, or a TWF build.

Sugliin: Frostburn: Does 2d8 damage, but it’s a full round action to make 1 attack. But hey, until you get to +6 BAB, this is your weapon of choice for pure damage dealing when you’re already standing next to your enemy.

Whip Dagger: Drow of the Underdark: 15 feet of reach, which might be helpful on occasion. You can also use it with the Whip Climber Skill Trick to do Indiana Jones-ish swinging.




Each is good in their own respect. What ECL are you starting at? How high do you expect the game to go? What books are allowed?



Read this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683941), this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=887398), and especially this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680285).

If you pick a few schools that you really like and your style of play, then we can give you advice on the best manuevers and stances.

I think I'v decided that depending on how i roll my stats i will decided

Swordsage: mostly Desert wind and shadow hand... my two favorites...
i was gonna play him RP wise as a mage if i go this thats into fire and ice manuvers not sure if its optimised but i like alot of the desert wind ranged manuvers like the cone of fire and what not.

Warblade: gonna go dimond mind and iron heart(focusing more on dimond mind), with the nightmare blades and insightfull strike. and what not...


this game has a special house rule where we get a feat (eaither skill focus or one of the +2/+2 feats)

Vortling
2009-06-24, 12:55 PM
I think I'v decided that depending on how i roll my stats i will decided

Swordsage: mostly Desert wind and shadow hand... my two favorites...
i was gonna play him RP wise as a mage if i go this thats into fire and ice manuvers not sure if its optimised but i like alot of the desert wind ranged manuvers like the cone of fire and what not.

Warblade: gonna go dimond mind and iron heart(focusing more on dimond mind), with the nightmare blades and insightfull strike. and what not...


this game has a special house rule where we get a feat (eaither skill focus or one of the +2/+2 feats)

Desert Wind can be underpowered if your DM frequently uses creatures with fire resist. Otherwise it's not a bad school. The shadow hand ones make you quite mobile and the ranged attacks aren't bad. For a character like that you'd want to prioritize your stats in this order: Dex/Wis/Con, everything else. If the feat is for free, take the stealthy feat for the swordsage character.

For the warblade, focus on your strength, con, and int. Take skill focus concentration if the feat is free as that will boost lots of diamond mind maneuvers.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-24, 06:05 PM
Im not sure which stance i should take if i go warblade...

If i go swordsage its child of shadow.

But warblade im just not sure about.
maybe punishing stance?

Keld Denar
2009-06-24, 06:10 PM
Punishing Stance and Blood in the Water tend to be the better 1st level maneuvers, although don't underestimate the power of Leading the Attack. BitW is usually for pretty specialized builds concerning with expanding their crit range out to like, the 11+ range, although it is kinda nice even if you are only a 15+er (like, Kukiri/Falcheon + Keen or Imp Crit). Punishing Stance is really only a gateway stance till you get one of the higher Iron Heart stances like Absolute Steel. You probably won't ever use it again after you get your 2nd stance.

For utility, I'm pretty fond of Hunter's Sense as well. Don't underestimate the power of Scent!

ColdSepp
2009-06-24, 06:17 PM
If you do multi class, remember that maneuvers gained from any class count toward prerequisites for higher level ones.

You can even purchase the Crown of the White Raven items and use them to meet prerequisites; since it only matters that you have them when you learn new manuevers.

You can also switch the granted maneuver every 24 hours, it's a pretty good deal.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-24, 06:27 PM
Punishing Stance and Blood in the Water tend to be the better 1st level maneuvers, although don't underestimate the power of Leading the Attack. BitW is usually for pretty specialized builds concerning with expanding their crit range out to like, the 11+ range, although it is kinda nice even if you are only a 15+er (like, Kukiri/Falcheon + Keen or Imp Crit). Punishing Stance is really only a gateway stance till you get one of the higher Iron Heart stances like Absolute Steel. You probably won't ever use it again after you get your 2nd stance.

For utility, I'm pretty fond of Hunter's Sense as well. Don't underestimate the power of Scent!

blood int he water might work... though i don't know if i will be having a high crit weapon it realy depends on my starting gold... we shall see thanks though for the advice...

AstralFire
2009-06-24, 06:44 PM
Swordsage can at least get some of the class skills that Changelings have a bonus to.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-24, 08:50 PM
Swordsage can at least get some of the class skills that Changelings have a bonus to.

Good advice, if he is planning on using them. However, if the character isn't going to be using those skills much or at all and the warblade fits his concept better, he should choose the class over the skills.