OOTS #664 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Yarram]

Oops! You mixed up the speech bubbles in the third frame!

[Eggplant]

Aren't the speech balloons colors switched in panel 3?

Other than than - Roy is coming back, wooo! :)

[Brett Wong]

haha amazing comic i've been waiting for this for so long refreshing and refreshing, great job giant :smallbiggrin:

[MrsBunnyWolf]

Roy on the limousine down to Earth - classy!

[Haven]

"S. Rogers" was my favorite part of this strip. Made me lol. :P

(That's the deceased and soon to return Captain America, non-Marvel-friends)

[Gaiyamato]

Welcome Home Roy!. :D

[ArcadiaGM]

Hrm. I'll be disappointed if Roy doesn't talk to V about his "subcontractors" anyway -- even without the report. He's seen too much not to ask questions, no matter what Eugene did with the paperwork.

Nice to see Roy travelling in style, though.

[wizknight]

WB Roy and Steve.

[Undead Prince]

Eugene sure nailed it in the last panel.

If only V had a bit more efficiency going with that ambition, by this point he'd be doing a Karsus and taking on gods.

Also, the Forces of Good's first known reaction to the fiendish plot seems kinda petty.

[ImmortalAer]

Eugennneeeee!

Well. ...New Drama! Can Eugene still get into the LG Heaven?!

[nosignal]

Cue the "V is a guy because Durkon said ''im'" threads.

[mescaLEO]

Nice, with a small touch of "Romeo and Juliet"! :smallwink:

[Mauve Shirt]

Hooray, Roy!
What does he need Roy's Archon to do?

[Fermatprime]

"S. Rogers" is absolutely the best part...

Oh man, are we going to see Roy corporeal again in 665?

[dish]

I kind of like Eugene's style, actually. And I'm sure that Roy's seen enough to have some inkling of what was going on.

[Snake-Aes]

Needs more AC/DC!

[Kranden]

Woo roy is coming back!

[delguidance]

I like Eugene's style. A little magic user solidarity is a rare thing. Now that I think about it though even Xykon could sort of see where V was coming from what with all the lectures and "let me tell you how it is little magic user." kind of speeches from him.

In a subtle way it shows that high level magic users are less common and can empathize with each other as practitioners of a high art even if working at cross purposes. Though I've gotten off topic.

Great comic Rich!

[Allerdyce]

Great dig at Marvel for the whole Cap #600 thing. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I am. And yay for Roy finally coming back! We missed him!

[Hardcore]

S.Rogers - Who is that?

[oxinabox]

typical wizard. always with the selling of the souls and the power and the fire...
Hey I'm a wizard:smallannoyed:...

It's going to be Good to see Roy alive again
Though the fact that he never finds out about:vaarsuvius: implies the party will never find out *** V's actions, not for a long time and when they do they'll regret it.

I miss the days when they were between adventures, and and doing sidequests.

[Gez]

Damn, lost my bet. I though Roy was going to be back in #664, but he's just on his way. :smallwink:

[Vercon]

So what we learn from this is that heaven requires you to be LG but to get anything done on earth you need to be TN at the least....

To bad I'm not a preacher of sorts because I think there's a sermon in that somewhere :)

[llabruf]

Wow. It's always great to wake up to a new comic and this one was very interesting. I wonder when/if this is going to come back and bite Roy in the ass.

[Jagos]

Roy is so intelligent and so DUMB at the same time.

[Cizak]

Great job, Rich! although the speech bubble-colour is wrong in panel 3.

[theinsulabot]

s.rogers? who the hell?

that some kind of reference i am missing?

[Yendor]

See? V's turning evil, and Belkar's gonna snuff it. Nice to have these things spelled out.

[nonbeliever93]

Eugene is a bitter old bastard isn't he? Loved the Highway From Heaven.

[sun_tzu]

As usual, Eugene sucks harder than total vacuum. Is this guy really supposed to be LG?:smallannoyed:

[Nevitan]

I think this would be funnier if I got the S. Rodgers reference.
Still a good comic though.

[i6uuaq]

speech bubbles are wrong in the 3rd panel. :smallbiggrin:

[llabruf]

s.rogers? who the hell?

that some kind of reference i am missing?

Could be a reference to Captain America.

[brant167]

"Highway from heaven" I love those little details. Great strip Giant!

[Jatyu]

Gotta love the VIP treatment. Also is Eugene even LG anyway?

[Hardcore]

Speech bubbles are fine. Read the text one more time and you'll get it.

[Freefall]

Ooh! What's Roy's Archon up to? I see a seed for future plot stuff!

[The Giant]

The speech bubbles are fixed now.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Sweet!

OK, the speech bubble problem fixed. (NM, the Giant said it before I did)

And for those that don't know, Steve Rogers is the secret identity of Captain America. Captain America was killed off a few years ago, the "mainstream media" sort of flopped and flailed about it for a while, and now he's coming back. Imagine that in a comic book: "Heroes Dying, then Coming Back." That has never happened before, so this is a total shock! :smallbiggrin:

[oxinabox]

Aren't the speech balloons colors switched in panel 3?

agree'd, they are

EDIT; Now they'll been fixed. Ninja'd

[Hardcore]

Considering Eugene failed to fulfill his very own oath to destroy Xykon I would say he not Lawful. At least not like someone like Miko would be. He seems very self centered so CN perhaps...

[Tundar]

"S. Rogers" was my favorite part of this strip. Made me lol. :P

(That's the deceased and soon to return Captain America, non-Marvel-friends)

Thank you for clearing that one up :)

[Jagos]

No, he follows laws. But at the most he's LN.

[moxproxy]

Needs more AC/DC!

Well, it's close enough. ;)
Besides, V's been cranking them up pretty high on his iPod lately, anyway.

Roy's coming back! And Steve right behind him. Yay! :smallsmile: And Eugene just keeps sliding off that cloud he's trying to climb. Good show, Giant!

(And Elan's absolutely right. Not patient indeed.:smallbiggrin:)

[Faramir]

"S. Rogers" was my favorite part of this strip. Made me lol. :P

(That's the deceased and soon to return Captain America, non-Marvel-friends)

Thank you! I really should have figured that out...

Great strip with everyone running true to form.

[SPoD]

I like Eugene's style. A little magic user solidarity is a rare thing.

He's saying he wished his son was more willing to cross the Evil line and do stuff like sell his soul. How is that in any way acceptable?

Eugene is a total jackass. He may have died Lawful Good, but I feel like when it's finally time to let him into the Afterlife, he's going to wonder why Heaven smells like brimstone.

[dogmac]

Eugene.... you're a jerk.

But we already knew that.

YAY!! Roy will be back!!!

Wonder what the archon is supposed to do.

[TSED]

Eugene is a total jackass. He may have died Lawful Good, but I feel like when it's finally time to let him into the Afterlife, he's going to wonder why Heaven smells like brimstone.

I hope more than anything that he gets re-evaluated after Xykon is finished.


I really, really do.

[Elderac]

Oh, Eugene, what have you done?

[llabruf]

I'm rather surprised Eugene didn't say something sarcastic to Roy as he was leaving. In fact he was acting helpful. Then again, it's in his best interests to help Roy track down Xykon.

[Elderac]

"S. Rogers" was my favorite part of this strip. Made me lol. :P

(That's the deceased and soon to return Captain America, non-Marvel-friends)

Yes, of course! Thanks. I would have been thinking about that all day!

[Morquard]

Arg, so typical of Eugene, another reason he should be tossed into some other afterlife.

Oh and of course it was stupid of Roy to ignore that celestrial, but hten he's been waiting for a long time to get rezzed, so its kind of understandable he is looking forward to it and doesn't want to wiat.

Hm, I wonder what he told Roy's Archon to do.
Will Roy's Archon even exist when Roy is not dead?

[Ancalagon]

Hehe, now that's going to teach those angel-things to get quicker to the point. ;)

[Ancalagon]

Will Roy's Archon even exist when Roy is not dead?

He'll be called "<insert name here> Archon" until he has a new client. ;)

[Killer Angel]

Eugene is a total jackass. He may have died Lawful Good, but I feel like when it's finally time to let him into the Afterlife, he's going to wonder why Heaven smells like brimstone.

Yes.
After all, Eugene is stuck in this sort of limbo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html), 'til the end of the oath, so the heaven could not be his final destination.

[Eben]

Ok, seriously how many times has Roy being an a$$ to npcs gotten him in trouble? The guy has a problem.

And Eugene... that was evil.

[Eric O'Really]

and there again, goes the old jerk. :smallannoyed:

and roy really could have waited a view minutes, to take a look at that report. i mean, he was up there for, what? a year? 5 more minutes couldnt have hurt, to listen to that celestial with obvious important information. :smallsigh:

[Snake-Aes]

AHm, I wonder what he told Roy's Archon to do.
Will Roy's Archon even exist when Roy is not dead?

Why not? Roy still exists. And a Royless Roy's Archon would probably just go to the next client.

[moxproxy]

Does anyone think we'll actually get to see Roy regenerate? That could be a couple of cool panels. I think I'd feel slightly disappointed if he just pops up in the next strip without any special effects, for some reason.

[bluedolphin359]

The best line in the strip, for me, was:

:elan:: I don't think patient is a word I would use to describe V, Haley.

:smallbiggrin:

Great comic overall. I wonder what this means for V, though. Will everyone find out about the splice when she first gets possessed, or will Roy be smart enough to remember the subcontractors and ask for himself?

[SPoD]

and roy really could have waited a view minutes, to take a look at that report. i mean, he was up there for, what? a year? 5 more minutes couldnt have hurt, to listen to that celestial with obvious important information. :smallsigh:

Five more minutes WOULD have hurt, because Durkon's spell would have been finished before then. Durkon would have thought Roy was refusing resurrection, and not cast it again. So while Roy could have been more willing to listen, he really didn't have the option of not leaving right then.

[Morquard]

I kind of like Eugene's style, actually. And I'm sure that Roy's seen enough to have some inkling of what was going on.
Honestly not so sure there.
I mean, if you had the suspicion your mage made a deal with the devil/orwhatevertheyare and then an angel comes to you to talk about how one of your teammates turned towards evil...
Would you immediately turn it down and assume its the guy you clearly know is evil already (therefor not really able to turn towards it) ?

Well maybe he connects those pieces in a few strips, maybe not.

[Yendor]

He'll be called "<insert name here> Archon" until he has a new client. ;)

No, no, no. He just has to wait for the next person called Roy to come along.

[moxproxy]

roy really could have waited a view minutes, to take a look at that report. i mean, he was up there for, what? a year? 5 more minutes couldnt have hurt, to listen to that celestial with obvious important information. :smallsigh:

Could he? Remember, deceased who doesn't answer the call, will not get resurrected. The spell has a set casting time, so Roy might not have had any choice.
Although, the celestials probably wouldn't hold him back if they knew that. :P

[Eric O'Really]

The best line in the strip, for me, was:

:elan:: I don't think patient is a word I would use to describe V, Haley.

:smallbiggrin:

Great comic overall. I wonder what this means for V, though. Will everyone find out about the splice when she first gets possessed, or will Roy be smart enough to remember the subcontractors and ask for himself?

even if he asks. the storyline points into the other direction. the last panels about the report, would have been pointless, if roy finds out by just asking v. no, i think they will all find out the hard way, when it happens.

[J.Gellert]

Woohoo Eugene! Way to go. First time I applaud him, I think.

[Conuly]

What did Roy ask Roy's Archon to do for him?

[Ron Miel]

Wonder what the archon is supposed to do.

I'll guess that Roy will get Durkon to try to resurrect Eric. It didn't work before because he didn't come when called. But it might succeed if Roy's Archon tells him to go down.

[Snake-Aes]

I'll guess that Roy will get Durkon to try to resurrect Eric. It didn't work before because he didn't come when called. But it might succeed if Roy's Archon tells him to go down.

Eric? Is that Roy's brother? Why would he want a ress?

[Finn Solomon]

My avatar has never been so appropriate.

[Ancalagon]

Woohoo Eugene! Way to go. First time I applaud him, I think.

Yeah, your name and your avatar indicate you swim in the same part of the pool as Eugenes actions were lately.

But this comic is a very nice indicator that Vaarsuvius indeed did and became evil... so much for the theories Vaarsuvius actions (most of them) are excuseable...

[warmachine]

Eugene didn't even read the report to determine if it was something Roy didn't need to know. For all Eugene knows, the report could contain vital information not seen in his scrying. This isn't taking the law into his own hands, it's not caring. Combined with previous actions, Eugene risks being kicked out of LG heaven.

[Eric O'Really]

Five more minutes WOULD have hurt, because Durkon's spell would have been finished before then. Durkon would have thought Roy was refusing resurrection, and not cast it again. So while Roy could have been more willing to listen, he really didn't have the option of not leaving right then.

well, like moxproxy said. would the celestials hold him back if that brakes the spell? also he isnt denying the call. hes just delaying it a little bit. are there rules about accepting the resurrection, but delaying the effect? it hink no. but in the oots world, it seems possible.

i think he was just too excited to wait another fiew minutes.

[pasko77]

"S. Rogers" was my favorite part of this strip. Made me lol. :P

(That's the deceased and soon to return Captain America, non-Marvel-friends)

Thanks, i was about to ask.

[SPoD]

I'll guess that Roy will get Durkon to try to resurrect Eric. It didn't work before because he didn't come when called. But it might succeed if Roy's Archon tells him to go down.

Impossible.

First, Resurrection can't raise bodies that have been dead for more than 1 year/level, and Eric has been dead a lot longer than Durkon's 14 levels of cleric would permit.

And second, they don't have Eric's body. If Durkon could raise someone without a corpse, the last 180 strips wouldn't have happened.


are there rules about accepting the resurrection, but delaying the effect?

No, there aren't.


Eugene didn't even read the report to determine if it was something Roy didn't need to know. For all Eugene knows, the report could contain vital information not seen in his scrying. This isn't taking the law into his own hands, it's not caring. Combined with previous actions, Eugene risks being kicked out of LG heaven.

Agreed. Though frankly, just taking the law into your own hands is already enough to get kicked out of LG heaven and booted to, say, NG or CG heaven.

[sun_tzu]

I hope more than anything that he gets re-evaluated after Xykon is finished.


I really, really do.

Quoted for complete agreement. That guy hasn't been acting in a Good manner since...well, ever, really. I must conclude that he's been saving puppies off-panel all the freaking time if he qualified as LG in the first place.

[Morquard]

Eric? Is that Roy's brother? Why would he want a ress?
Might actually a good bet.
He's been dead for what? 20 years at least now.
Sure he's happy there playing with blocks, but Roy might think he deserves a chance on a fulfilled life.
Just not sure Durkon is high enough for a True Resurrection spell yet, and where would they get 25k worth diamonds from?

About Eugene's alignment:
He's quite certainly not LG anymore.
I'd not say he's neutral though, he never really did anything evil. He broke his oath, thats non-lawfull (not even really chaotic), but its not non-good or even evil.
He had reasons why he didn't pick up the oath again (SOD), even though they might have been wrong, but he did it not for himself.
Sure he helped Roy mainly to get into the afterlife, but again thats chaotic not evil.
I'd say he's CG.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Roy deserves to go home in a limo with a minibar. And yay! He's finally going to be ressurected!

[Jawsh]

Hm, I wonder what he told Roy's Archon to do.
Will Roy's Archon even exist when Roy is not dead?

Yes, the archon just waits for Roy to die again. Everybody dies, and time flies when you're in LG heaven, so from the archon's perspective, it will be as if Roy is gone for a couple of minutes before he dies again.

Also, there's no need to find him other work while Roy's gone, because there are plenty of archons to look after the other souls, and what will happen when the archon has two souls to watch over, both Roy and someone else?

[Custos Sophiae]

If Varsuvius had become evil, the angel would have said so, having no good reason not to. Since it said only that they'd taken a dramatic turn towards evil, they've not reached that destination - not yet, anyway. Presumably, the higher-ups want Roy to help keep V from falling.

[Snake-Aes]

Might actually a good bet.
He's been dead for what? 20 years at least now.
Sure he's happy there playing with blocks, but Roy might think he deserves a chance on a fulfilled life.
Just not sure Durkon is high enough for a True Resurrection spell yet, and where would they get 25k worth diamonds from?

About Eugene's alignment:
He's quite certainly not LG anymore.
I'd not say he's neutral though, he never really did anything evil. He broke his oath, thats non-lawfull (not even really chaotic), but its not non-good or even evil.
He had reasons why he didn't pick up the oath again (SOD), even though they might have been wrong, but he did it not for himself.
Sure he helped Roy mainly to get into the afterlife, but again thats chaotic not evil.
I'd say he's CG.
I'd say that's neutral, not chaotic. Selfishness has little to do with being orderly.

[Jawsh]

Roy deserves to go home in a limo with a minibar. And yay! He's finally going to be ressurected!

They're paying 5,000 gp for that spell. There had better be some complementary perks thrown in.

[Snake-Aes]

If Varsuvius had become evil, the angel would have said so, having no good reason not to. Since it said only that they'd taken a dramatic turn towards evil, they've not reached that destination - not yet, anyway. Presumably, the higher-ups want Roy to help keep V from falling.My take is that V is neutral, but the people here seem to have an extremely hard time accepting a neutral person would do an evil deed given an appropriate push. My flame suit is already corroded.

[HOLEkevin]

It's funny how often the OotS crowd can't be bothered to stick around for important information. They really should learn to relax more.

[Eric O'Really]

My take is that V is neutral, but the people here seem to have an extremely hard time accepting a neutral person would do an evil deed given an appropriate push. My flame suit is already corroded.

hehehe. that just got me thinking. how many kilonazis may this fmailicide have been worth? :smallbiggrin:

[Samuraiko]

1) Kudos for the Captain America reference. :D
2) Kudos for the HIGHWAY FROM HEAVEN reference (and Roy gets a limo with a minibar... I swear for a moment I had a DIE HARD flashback with Argoyle as the limo driver). :)
3) ARGH, Eugene, you are such a d***! Oh if this comes back to bite anyone in the a**, I hope it's him.
4) Love Elan's little aside about V. :)

So when's the next one, Giant? Huh?

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko

[BHodges3]

I am thinking that the celestial was going to warn Roy about the dangers of the contract stipulations itself. As in... "Don't take V to the next gate with you because he owes some initiative rounds to some bad people and they could use it next time he is in the presence of a gate" kind of thing.

[Morquard]

I'd say that's neutral, not chaotic. Selfishness has little to do with being orderly.
Maybe... I was going to add "or maybe NG", but I think chaotic fits better.
lawful in my opinion means you stick to your promises and your code of behavior etc, while chaotic basicly means you do what you want.
Eugene strikes me as pretty chaotic in that sense. But yeah maybe he's still neutral.
But my main point was, I don't think he's TN or CN or LN but still good. Just not lawful.

[Amarsir]

Ah, the old "you clearly have something important to say so I'm going to talk over you instead while you avoid keywords." That's a cliche I could stand to never see again. Very Three's Company.

Remember, deceased who doesn't answer the call, will not get resurrected. The spell has a set casting time, so Roy might not have had any choice.If that's true, what happens if they're 3 days up the mountain? Everyone has to predict and wait for their own ressurection?

[Thundagard]

Roy is so intelligent and so DUMB at the same time.

Intelligence does not equal wisdom. :smallwink:

[BHodges3]

Ah, the old "you clearly have something important to say so I'm going to talk over you instead while you avoid keywords." That's a cliche I could stand to never see again. Very Three's Company.
If that's true, what happens if they're 3 days up the mountain? Everyone has to predict and wait for their own ressurection?

I can only guess that you can be summoned from anywhere in the heavenly realms, and don't have to be sitting on "cloud-level". The angels are like Enterprise.... "They'll pick you up".

[Snake-Aes]

Maybe... I was going to add "or maybe NG", but I think chaotic fits better.
lawful in my opinion means you stick to your promises and your code of behavior etc, while chaotic basicly means you do what you want.
Eugene strikes me as pretty chaotic in that sense. But yeah maybe he's still neutral.
But my main point was, I don't think he's TN or CN or LN but still good. Just not lawful.

Sadly, we do not have much evidence of his alignment. Good people don't have to be likable, though it's more common, and really we have no evidence of him being lawful other than others saying it.

If we trust other characters' judgment of him, and his behavior so far, LN does match reasonably well. He agreed that V's consorting with Evil was a great attempt at finishing Xykon, which indicates he's not good-aligned.

[bue52]

Did Eugene just burn the report about V?

[BHodges3]

Did Eugene just burn the report about V?

That would certainly be the consensus. Don't think we was magically mailing it to him or anything.:smallwink:

[shakes019]

Yay! Roy's finally returning!

I was one of the ones who didn't make the S. Rogers / Captain America connection, so thanks for the clarification.

spoiler for speculation.
Re: V's alignment, I assume that V is and has been neutral, but is poised to drop significantly unless some intervention takes place. V's been seeking "ultimate arcane power" for some time now, and to have a sense of it and lose it, I could see V trying to regain it. That or Xykon's speech about having the stones to get the job done (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) will resonate with V, making V more willing to take actions that risk V's alignment.

[Aerysil]

As another said, I think there was more in that report than just how V was approaching evil. Something tells me there was plot-important information there that could have worked to OotS's advantage.

The strip took on a noticably sudden kinetic pace the moment V encountered the dragon on the island. Eugene burning the report suggests the plot has some distance to go yet.

During the last strip I was guessing Roy had two more strips before he was alive again. I may be right! Unless in the next strip, two panels have the lines "The spell is almost finished! We'll finally see Roy again!" "Ms. Sunshine! Ms. Sunshine! I have an urgent message-" "Wait! - you're going to-"

*waits for Rich to draw the OotS calmly stopping the approaching messenger with expressionless faces and a lift of a hand*

[dps]

It's funny how often the OotS crowd can't be bothered to stick around for important information. They really should learn to relax more.

Poster here on this forum are even worse about missing stuff. Someone will make a post explaining the S. Rogers reference, and 2 posts later, someone else will make yet another post asking what it meant.

[Sijo]

You know, the good thing about OotS is that nearly every panel of every chapter has little things worthy of checking out. The limo, the rainbow bridge, the "Highway FROM Heaven" sign... Nice work from Mr. Burlew. :smallsmile:

Oh, STEVE Rogers? As in, Captain America, just announced to be returning from the dead in the comics. Nice touch. I didn't get it at first.

Glad to see that Heaven Celestia is not incompetent enough to ignore the business with the IFCC. Too bad Roy didn't bother to read the report (I know he was in a hurry, but couldn't he have read it in the way down? I mean, if he had time to drink from the minibar...)

And yeah, Eugene strikes me as not only not being really lawful, but he's getting away from good, as well. You think he's getting bitter from Roy's rejection? Nearly everybody he cared for has turned on him. I expect to see him tossed to some other afterlife later on. I hope he likes Sigil. ;)

[ResplendentFire]

Poster here on this forum are even worse about missing stuff. Someone will make a post explaining the S. Rogers reference, and 2 posts later, someone else will make yet another post asking what it meant.

Yes, that was pretty funny.

I hope the next hopefully soon strip features Living Roy. I want that suspense resolved, thanks! :)

[CurlyKitGirl]

'kay, I don't post here, ever, but I'd like to point out something concerning V's alignment. Spoilerising for space.
In Panel Five Glasses says: "one of your teammates has taken quite a dramatic turn towards evil in the last few - " before Roy cuts her off.
The last word is obviously minutes.
Running a few time estimates here:
I don't know if the celestial realm would be affected by the Advance Time Stop spell, but assuming it is I'm going to say that V was tempted for oh, five to ten minutes; with V's choosing the Soul Splice in 634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).
Time for V starts now.
Allow one minute for the next strip and the teleporting there. Kyrie and the children are in serious trouble in 636. I'm guessing there was no more than five minutes between ABD leaving the island and the IFCC implementing the Time Stop.
Then V arrives. I'd say the battle took three to five minutes to kill ABD, then three more minutes for the gloating and casting of Familicide.
Then V loses Haerta. One Soul Splice: nine minutes according to me, but I'll allow for ten minutes.
Two or three more pass then V leaves for the Azurites. Another one allow for Epic Teleport and then leaving to meet the rest of the team. Ten more until Durkon starts casting Resurrection.
I'm guessing that every minute Durkon has to say Resurrection again, so in 650 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) no more than five minutes go by. Twenty nine minutes have passed since V accepted the Splices. At the least twenty six.
In the latest comic three more Resurrections are said and Roy gets in his limo. The spell's probably done. So seven minutes for the Xykon battle.
So I'd say that V had Soul Splices for roughly half an hour.

Note that I emphasised "towards" evil. V at the moment, I'd say is CN, with Evil leanings. Chaotic because it was more for himself, especially after he basically said so to Kyrie, although you can see his other motivations; Neutral because he's using evil means towards good ends. Well, V thinks so anyway.
And do I need to say anything else for the Evil leanings. Towards doesn't V is Evil quite yet, so he's still just about hanging onto Neutral.
I don't think V is Evil, not yet, but if V kept acting as he did I'd say the Evil aspects would be far stronger. His going back for O - Chul etc. probably started his very long, slow crawl back to Neutral with Good leanings or better.
After all Glasses is probably only acting as she is to warn Roy about V's evil inclinations, so V is on the balance as it were, being able to choose whichever way he wishes. Please note that all I know fabout DnD essentially comes from this one webcomic, but I do know the basics.

It also means that somewhere along the line V has up to one hour and ten minutes (if the IFCC take turns one right after the other) of soul hire.

Great comic though, loved the little jokes, and I can't help but wonder at the ramifications of Eugene's actions. I can certainly see his point of view, but at the same time . . . this can only bode ill.

[Jahkaivah]

Yeah, your name and your avatar indicate you swim in the same part of the pool as Eugenes actions were lately.

But this comic is a very nice indicator that Vaarsuvius indeed did and became evil... so much for the theories Vaarsuvius actions (most of them) are excuseable...

The act of using the powers of Evil is not Evil in itself. Otherwise Miko would have been correct to judge the Order of the Stick in their use of Belkar.

Eugene just appears to be taking a page out of Shojo's book, wouldn't have hurt to take a look at the report before burning it though....

Also angel said Vaarsuvius has "taken a turn" towards Evil, and not become Evil in itself. Though the possibility is likely.

[Snake-Aes]

Well, it's close enough. ;)
Besides, V's been cranking them up pretty high on his iPod lately, anyway.

Roy's coming back! And Steve right behind him. Yay! :smallsmile: And Eugene just keeps sliding off that cloud he's trying to climb. Good show, Giant!

(And Elan's absolutely right. Not patient indeed.:smallbiggrin:)

My DM used AC/DC song titles as inspiration for plot hooks on occasion. We're still laughing from "Anything Goes", and kinda terrified with "Money Made".

[banjo1985]

Ah, Eugene, we know you too well not to expect that. :smalltongue:

Good stuff though, it's about time Roy got back and organised this rabble. Of course, I can see the V situation coming back to bit him on the butt, but that just adds to the fun!

[kierthos]

*does the "Roy's finally getting rezzed" dance*

[Linkavitch]

Great comic, Giant! Can't wait to see Roy in 665! And to all the people who are asking who S.Rogers is, (in case it hasn't been answered specifically, although I got it from reading the posts,) it's Steve Rogers, better known as Captain America.

[CNagy]

Any time alignment comes up, it feels like people have adopted the NWN method of alignment shifting, i.e. "this action was X points towards evil" or "that action was Y points towards chaotic." The idea that you can chart someone's alignment shift action by action is a bit ridiculous.

Alignment represents a consistent world view, it's how a person acts over a long period of time. Even making a deal (that leaves one's soul intact) is not instant evil. How V's alignment stands now will depend largely on how he acts now that the gestalt over--but in my opinion the chances of him being evil for accepting a deal that lasted less than an hour (likely) in the pursuit of the greater good are pretty slim.

Eugene's actions are typical of a lawful but pragmatic good that keeps lawful stupid from screwing things up. He has seen what V did, and it is obvious that he understands the implications. Rather than show Roy the report (which is likely painting V in the worst possible terms), he can tell Roy himself if it looks like it will become an issue. If that report had something vitally important and not V-related, the celestial would have mentioned it, or even tried to mention it.

[ArcadiaGM]

My DM used AC/DC song titles as inspiration for plot hooks on occasion. We're still laughing from "Anything Goes", and kinda terrified with "Money Made".

I don't even want to know about "Big Balls".

[Fighteer]

Coupla things here.

First, I too did not get the Cap'n reference until someone in this thread pointed it out. Love it.

Second, Roy once again displays his tendency to brush off NPCs who have important things to say (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotNowBernard). Apparently that's one lesson he has not yet learned, and I'm quite certain it will come back to bite him.

Third, this strip seems to resolve the question of whether or not souls remember their experiences in the afterlife when they are raised. I know this was something I had been wondering ever since Roy died. If he wasn't going to remember anything, there would have been no point in the deva trying to give him the information about V.

This leads me to another interesting logical conundrum. Obviously (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaptainObvious), Roy is not the first character to have been raised in the history of the world. Assuming that "I remember my afterlife" is a constant in the OotS-verse and not just a special exception being made for him, it should be well-known to anyone of a high enough level to deal with such things on a regular basis. Therefore, the OotS' complete ignorance of the possibility that Roy might have been watching them and/or might come back with valuable info is a bit baffling.

[Kokopelli Jones]

I was kinda hoping that "S. Rogers" was Canadian folksinger Stan Rogers, but I guess the real world is the wrong genre.

[Snowyowl]

Nice strip! I was kinda expecting this, but... V teleported through an Epic barrier, had an almighty duel with Xykon, lost, meanwhile O-Chul escaped, blinded Redcloak, killed what's-his-name the hobbo, got beaten as well, allowed V to escape, was revived with a healing potion, stole the phylactery, gave it to Blackwing, got X blown up, and then got 'ported back by a thinly veiled deus ex machina... in the space of 10 minutes? Meanwhile Elan, Haley, Blekar, and of course Hinjo have accomplished almost nothing in the same space of time. A bit asymetrical, perhaps?

Though in Blekar's case it's probably a good thing that he spent 10 minutes doing nothing :wink:

I'm taking bets on the topic of the next two strips: #665, Roy gets revived and gets up to speed on things; almost crashing into Hinjo as he lands. Perhaps some stuff about V's "subcontractors". In #666 (the Number of the Beast)... O-chul finds out what the Mitd really is? Nah, too soon. Though that's a distinct possibility, I'd go for stuff about the IFCC in that one. Better yet, Nale and Sabine. I wanna see them in the next book.

[Diavolo]

That's 663 strips, and I've loved every one.
But here we are on #664, and I don't get it.

Who is S.Rogers, and why does he have some sort of Deva chauffeur waiting for him beside Roy's chauffeur?

Diavolo.

[Kronno]

Its a Captain America reference.

Steve Rogers (The original Captain America) is due to be resurrected in an upcoming comic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America#The_Return_of_Steve_Rogers

[Linkavitch]

He's Steve Rogers, Captain America, and there's a chauffeur there because he died in the Marvel Universe, and is supposedly coming back soon.

[Adeptus]

Brilliant! :biggrin:

The veteran adventurers in the crowd can probably understand Eugene's pragmatism.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't even want to know about "Big Balls".
It isn't hard imagining a good hook with that one. It could be the sudden appearance of a small group of rampaging giant Tolypeutes from Galrasia, and your group's druid was summoned to help appease them and find out why they were on a stampede in the first place.

[Njord]

as usual Roy only listen to what he wants to... its like reading the oracle thing all over again.

and eugene just got some points after this strip :P

[Ancalagon]

and eugene just got some points after this strip :P

You mean "even more jerkass points"? I guess he soon should have collected enough "Bonus Jerkass Miles" to trade them for "an 1A Alignment Shift".

[Morquard]

Nice strip! I was kinda expecting this, but... V teleported through an Epic barrier, had an almighty duel with Xykon, lost, meanwhile O-Chul escaped, blinded Redcloak, killed what's-his-name the hobbo, got beaten as well, allowed V to escape, was revived with a healing potion, stole the phylactery, gave it to Blackwing, got X blown up, and then got 'ported back by a thinly veiled deus ex machina... in the space of 10 minutes? Meanwhile Elan, Haley, Blekar, and of course Hinjo have accomplished almost nothing in the same space of time. A bit asymetrical, perhaps?
a) Most people who know the rules far better than I said that the whole Xykon fight took maybe 3 minutes at most. Not really much time to do anything when you are not an epic mage :)

b) What's there to do on the island beside waiting for Durkon to finish?

c) The Azurites arrived there a couple of minutes earlier, without any warning or explanation, and Hinjo probably needed the time to just hear "a wizard did it".

Elan and Haley probably started running the moment V teleported out. so they're 3 minutes running away from the rest when they meet Hinjo and Lien and Ochul and V drop into their lap.
They have a chat for maybe a minute or two, before they start *carrying* V back to Durkon. They can't run now, so they're slower. Lets say for the same distance they now need 5 minutes.
That puts them at about 9 minutes into the rezz-spell when they arrive, which fits Durkon's "almost done"

So again: What should they have done. What is there even to do?

[Kaytara]

Yes! Finally.

Well, this makes things rather... muddy. Apparently Roy was scrying with Eugene on the whole fight, but then he heard about the Soul Splice, so it doesn't make sense why he immediately assumes that the deva is talking about Belkar, and in any case the point of this comic seems to be that Roy doesn't know and won't learn of the Splice any time soon.

As for V, I find it hard to believe that he hasn't been able to roll a twenty on his Will save for the better part of ten minutes (since Durkon is just about done, and the fight took only a few minutes). Unless, of course, Xykon paralyzed him with his Lich ability before trying to Meteor Swarm him, which seems redundant because he was about to kill him, anyway... Looks like we're going the "V is going to stay paralyzed until Durkon gets to him to hammer home how much he needs his teammates" route. Fair enough.

Have to wonder why exactly Eugene wouldn't want Roy to know about V's dealings with evil, though. It doesn't really make sense.

[nybbler]

And Eugene... that was evil.

Not just evil. Chaotic Evil -- making a promise with no intention of keeping it.

[The_Firenail]

Nice, with a small touch of "Romeo and Juliet"! :smallwink:
What? How? You mean the Friar Lawrence thing? No, I think he did that just to piss him off, not fate (I think). To clarify, the angel is John, and Eugene is the Plauge.
And Is that supposed to be a cross between Stairway to Heaven and Highway to Hell? (I have a copy of Black Ice and Mothership!)

[Snake-Aes]

Not just evil. Chaotic Evil -- making a promise with no intention of keeping it.

That's just Evil. Lawful Evil is just as prone to that (if not more).

[Kilarny]

*giggle* Drinking from the minibar as you take a limo ride down the Highway from Heaven toward your resurrection. Nice.
Also, Roy's father may be surprised once Xykon is defeated: I can picture the Lawful Good clerks kicking him out to some other afterlife. He's not very LG anymore, I think.

[#Raptor]

Impossible.

First, Resurrection can't raise bodies that have been dead for more than 1 year/level, and Eric has been dead a lot longer than Durkon's 14 levels of cleric would permit.

And second, they don't have Eric's body. If Durkon could raise someone without a corpse, the last 180 strips wouldn't have happened.

"The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level. "

But as you say, they still don't have the corpse... and even if they had it - why raise him now? His father and mother are dead, Roy has his hands full with Xykon and Julia is certainly not gonna be willing to raise a child.

I absolutely can't see this happening.

[Snake-Aes]

b) What's there to do on the island beside waiting for Durkon to finish?

V says the place has been abandoned for a while and estimates there are monsters to clear. XP for Roy!


c) The Azurites arrived there a couple of minutes earlier, without any warning or explanation, and Hinjo probably needed the time to just hear "a wizard did it".

XD Pretty much. I think v spent maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe 5 minutes in greysky. Hinjo hadn't 10 minutes to wonder so far.


Elan and Haley probably started running the moment V teleported out. so they're 3 minutes running away from the rest when they meet Hinjo and Lien and Ochul and V drop into their lap.
They have a chat for maybe a minute or two, before they start *carrying* V back to Durkon. They can't run now, so they're slower. Lets say for the same distance they now need 5 minutes.
That puts them at about 9 minutes into the rezz-spell when they arrive, which fits Durkon's "almost done"

So again: What should they have done. What is there even to do?
Killing monsters and doing a recap, but before ROy the oots doesn't really have anything to do.

[Simons Mith]

They're paying 5,000 gp for that spell. There had better be some complementary perks thrown in.

Hey, that's why the spell costs 5,000gp.

[hajo]

Ah, the old "you clearly have something important to say so I'm going to talk over you instead while you avoid keywords." That's a cliche I could stand to never see again.

Wasting other people's time, e.g. by talking a lot without getting to the point, is a big turnoff for me, too :smallannoyed:

That, and showing up at the last possible minute, plus finally dumping the job to a random bystander.

It looks like competence and being likeable are no factors for being in LG's afterlife...

[Random832]

That's just Evil. Lawful Evil is just as prone to that (if not more).

My impression of LE is more of making a promise you can keep, while already planning how to pull Exact Words to weasel out of what the other party thought you were agreeing to.

Chaotic (good or evil alike, though CG would have a good reason for it) would be making a promise with no intention of keeping it, or easily breaking one you did originally intend to keep later if something comes up.

I'd put this action as CN - making a promise with no intention of keeping it, for a selfish (but not necessarily evil) reason - his reason being to avoid placing what he sees as an obstacle to Xykon being defeated.

[Optimystik]

I say Eugene is TN/CN or NG/CG at this point. It depends on how seriously the Powers that Be view his sanctioning of Evil, but lying to the Angel is certainly Chaotic behavior. No way is he still LG.

And that's okay. I knew he never belonged in Celestia to begin with, just from Sara's description of him. Plus he'll be able to keep his promise to Roy easily if he's in a whole other afterlife.

[Sabre13]

Alas, So close... Reading through this i was hoping that there wouldn't be some great debate where people get all in a tizzy about what someone else has to say... The seeds for one have already been planted... It would have been a first too...

[Blaznak]

After reading this, I have this weird desire to sing ACDC but with the lyrics being "I"m on a Highway from Heaven". I know. Lame. But there you go.

[Snake-Aes]

My impression of LE is more of making a promise you can keep, while already planning how to pull Exact Words to weasel out of what the other party thought you were agreeing to.

Chaotic (good or evil alike, though CG would have a good reason for it) would be making a promise with no intention of keeping it, or easily breaking one you did originally intend to keep later if something comes up.

Correct, but you forget the fact that an Evil character will not stick to anything that he doesn't want to. If keeping a promise is going to harm an Evil's plans or well being, then the Evil will simply bail, orderly or not.

You could argue that this control and weaseling in a deal are by themselves a betrayal since they hide their intent, but it's best not to dwell on that one.

[Zanaril]

Maybe it's the long wait for this strip, maybe it's the tyeing up of loose ends and confirmation of events, or maybe it's the small jokes, but I found this the most enjoyable strip in a while. The drama of the previous few has had me biting my nails (or would have done if I did that) but this one felt like returning to familiar ground.

[Adeen]

and there again, goes the old jerk. :smallannoyed:

and roy really could have waited a view minutes, to take a look at that report. i mean, he was up there for, what? a year? 5 more minutes couldnt have hurt, to listen to that celestial with obvious important information. :smallsigh:

I agree

What I think will happen:
V has now switched alignments and coerced with devils/demons, so now the next time Roy comes back, he may not make it into the LG heaven because he willingly adventured with a soul-seller

[xyzchyx]

First, I suspect that Eugene thinks he's going into heaven, but I have a suspicion he's actually headed for the plane of concordant opposition when he's finally allowed to go through. Alignment isn't just what's written on a character sheet, it's reflected by character actions. If the actions don't actually reflect the alignment that was written down, then that's just too darn bad for them.

Secondly... and I don't know if anybody's mentioned this yet.... what happened to Roy's Sword? I don't recall having seen it at all since 575.

[Glorendil]

Well, very good to see Roy again... he's been sorely missed, and I'm looking forward to seeing his comics self in the flesh again

I can surely understand Roy avoiding the last minute nagging... It reminds me too much of things that happen in the office 2 minutes before I leave. I just HATE that. If there's anyone here who doesn't - raise your hand :smallamused:

I think Eugene runs a good chance of not making it to LG heaven at all, but I think he doesn't care about that.


That's just Evil. Lawful Evil is just as prone to that (if not more).

Hmm... I don't think that's lawful. Ignoring and lying to an angel, an authority figure where Eugene is, can be compared to an ordinary person promising something to a police officer with the full intention of not keeping it. I don't see how that act can be seen as lawful.

The act by itself is IMO chaotic for its disrespect for the local law, and the clear violation of one's word. IMO It's also evil because it's witholding information from a person who relies on him, deliberately complicating things for Roy... it's even beyond not caring - he knows the full implications and does it deliberately.

[RMS Oceanic]

An interesting tidbit: If 665 shows Roy's resurrection, Roy will have been dead for 222 strips. Just over a third of the comic.

And yeah, Roy needs to learn to listen more, while Celestial Beaurocrats need to learn to get to the point. "Mr. Greenhilt? I have information that says your comrade Vaarsuvius' soul is in danger." Would have avoided that.

And yeah, Eugene is a Jackass.

[Ancalagon]

Secondly... and I don't know if anybody's mentioned this yet.... what happened to Roy's Sword? I don't recall having seen it at all since 575.

He's just not thinking about it right now/it still belongs, from his point of view, to his grandfather. Therefore, it does not show up in the afterlife.
In the real world, it just still sticks in one of the bags of holding...

[Random832]

Correct, but you forget the fact that an Evil character will not stick to anything that he doesn't want to. If keeping a promise is going to harm an Evil's plans or well being, then the Evil will simply bail, orderly or not.

That's what I'm saying - I don't think that's LE - I don't think a devil would ever do it, and I think a normal LE character would be seriously risking being switched to NE if they do it too often. Far simpler to avoid making the promise.

Remember, nobody present questioned the validity of a plan involving V ordering Qarr to go to certain death based on an unconditional [so not even a valid contract] promise made by him. (and, for that matter, as far as I can remember no-one on the boards questioned it on that basis, though there were certainly other flaws)

[Optimystik]

Alas, So close... Reading through this i was hoping that there wouldn't be some great debate where people get all in a tizzy about what someone else has to say... The seeds for one have already been planted... It would have been a first too...

That almost every strip can inspire a brand new debate is a testament to Rich's ability to throw us all for a loop several times a week :smallsmile:


Secondly... and I don't know if anybody's mentioned this yet.... what happened to Roy's Sword? I don't recall having seen it at all since 575.

It's more than likely in Haley's Bag of Holding along with his other personal effects (so that she didn't have to carry them.) She would have put him in there too if it weren't for Belkar's MoJ.

[Jahkaivah]

You mean "even more jerkass points"? I guess he soon should have collected enough "Bonus Jerkass Miles" to trade them for "an 1A Alignment Shift".

I disagree.

[Kaytara]

"Whee, the deva used the word 'evil' in the same sentence as V, so obviously we guys have been right when saying that V is evil!"
Heh, um, yeah. ^^; XD As others have mentioned, it's a turn towards evil. Saying that the sentence implies that V is now evil is like saying that Roy's dealings with Shojo behind the backs of the paladins were a turn towards Chaotic Good, therefore he is no longer Lawful.


Any time alignment comes up, it feels like people have adopted the NWN method of alignment shifting, i.e. "this action was X points towards evil" or "that action was Y points towards chaotic." The idea that you can chart someone's alignment shift action by action is a bit ridiculous.

Alignment represents a consistent world view, it's how a person acts over a long period of time. Even making a deal (that leaves one's soul intact) is not instant evil. How V's alignment stands now will depend largely on how he acts now that the gestalt over--but in my opinion the chances of him being evil for accepting a deal that lasted less than an hour (likely) in the pursuit of the greater good are pretty slim.


Quoted for truth. One of the reasons I kept arguing that V was not evil during the Splice was because his basic behaviour hadn't really changed. He was cranky and impatient, but that is a rather long shot from Evil. And he was becoming increasingly self-absorbed and obsessed with proving himself, but that was because that was the nerve that had been touched, pulled at and torn with sharp razors over the course of many months. It meant that V was badly in need of a slap, a hug, and therapy, in that order. By contrast, saying a person is EVIL makes a statement about the person's behaviour under normal circumstances, not when they've been driven half-mad by the whole campaign world conspiring to better attack their weaknesses.


Ah, the old "you clearly have something important to say so I'm going to talk over you instead while you avoid keywords." That's a cliche I could stand to never see again. Very Three's Company.


Come on, it's not that bad. It was entirely possible to have the deva simply arrive a moment too late and only be able to stare in frustration after the departing limo, instead, but having her try to talk made for more engaging dialogue, so that's why it was done..

[Prowl]

Yay! Alignment arguments about someone other than Belkar and Varsnuffalufagus!

I may as well pipe in with my 2 cents... if Eugene is lawful good, he's just barely across the line on both counts.

[Protecar]

Am I the only one who really wants to see what the demons have in store for V once they force V to make good on h** end of the deal?

Sure Eugene isn't winning LG points right now, but what's the worse that could happen if Roy and the crew don't know about V's little "encounter"? V goes on a killing spree and destroys a gate? Pfft! :P

Seriously though: good to see Roy is (almost) back. I can't wait for the next installment.

Personally I think the demons have no reason to want to play with the snarl and have some other agenda completely. Maybe they want Xykon gone too. *shrugs* It could happen!

[Hacktor]

Good one giant :D

[Zanaril]

Varsnuffalufagus!

Guh!? *snort* :smalltongue:

[Pokemaster]

S. Rogers

Thanks for making me cry like a little girl, Giant.

[Dalek Kommander]

But this comic is a very nice indicator that Vaarsuvius indeed did and became evil... so much for the theories Vaarsuvius actions (most of them) are excuseable...

He sold his soul to three avatars of pure evil for ultimate magical power, even after being told of a way to achieve his goals by less drastic means. I have no doubt that's going to be "discussed" in his final judgment, to put it mildly.

That being said, the exact phrase that the angel used was that V took a dramatic turn towards evil. It is not yet empirically established that he has officially crossed the objective threshold of being evil enough to ignore an unholy blight spell, like Belkar, but he's certainly plummeting in the right direction.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Maybe Roy's not getting raised in 665.

Maybe 666, since A.) the number 666 is supposed to be unlucky, B.) Roy getting raised is good, and C.) strips #100 and #600 showed that just 'cause the strip number suggests something might mean the opposite is happening.

Edit:



What I think will happen:
V has now switched alignments and coerced with devils/demons, so now the next time Roy comes back, he may not make it into the LG heaven because he willingly adventured with a soul-seller
Soul-LENDER. Giving money is good; lending is, well, not charity, and may have started the current economic crisis.
(If anyone derails the thread because of this statement, then a giant golden dragon burns your house and computer down, it's not me.)Or is it?


Does anyone think we'll actually get to see Roy regenerate? That could be a couple of cool panels. I think I'd feel slightly disappointed if he just pops up in the next strip without any special effects, for some reason.
Yep. Magic should be awesome, espesialy (sp?) powerful magic. Bringing back the dead always struck me as powerful.

[Dalek Kommander]

Yay! Alignment arguments about someone other than Belkar and Varsnuffalufagus!

I may as well pipe in with my 2 cents... if Eugene is lawful good, he's just barely across the line on both counts.

Actually, I'm not sure I give him credit for being entirely across the line. Remember, Eugene never actually did get IN to heaven, and all his talk about the blood oath being his sole, insurmountable obstacle was proven wrong when Roy got into heaven.

[PumpkinJack]

I think Eugene's actions were more likely a result of wanting to protect V than wanting to complicate things for Roy or disobey some angel. There's nothing particularly evil about wanting protect someone you identify with. Also, Eugene's dialogue implies that he thinks V's approach is more likely to complete the OotS's goal of defeating Xykon, so he may believe protecting V's reputation is actually helping the OotS out (and by extension himself). I agree that Eugene doesn't seem particularly lawful but I haven't seen him do anything evil.

The Three's Company technique is a bit cliche but it keeps coming back because it serves a useful narrative purpose: the reader gets information about the plot that the protagonist doesn't get. Sure it could have been done after Roy left, but this way you get some reinforcement about Roy's attitude regarding NPCs as well. I don't have a problem with it.

[Adeen]

Actually, I'm not sure I give him credit for being entirely across the line. Remember, Eugene never actually did get IN to heaven, and all his talk about the blood oath being his sole, insurmountable obstacle was proven wrong when Roy got into heaven.

Well, Eugene was told that was the reason that HE did not get into heaven. And the reason Roy got into heaven is because he died TRYING to fulfill it. Because the blood oath was going to keep Eugene out of heaven, maybe they just didn't bother to look at his file and judge him yet. It has never been stated that he WILL go up there once Xykon is dead, it's just what is currently preventing him, his other misdeeds may be the next thing that prevents him once Xykon is finally dead, or no longer undead, destroyed, whatever...


Edit: I agree with Pumpkin Jack's last statement. Eugene's ego and idea that magic is best is probably just having him wanting to protect V.

[NerfTW]

Not supposedly. He IS coming back. Marvel directly stated such. "Steve Rogers returns to life in Captain America Reborn"

[Yoyoyo]

One of the reasons I kept arguing that V was not evil during the Splice was because his basic behaviour hadn't really changed. He was cranky and impatient, but that is a rather long shot from Evil. And he was becoming increasingly self-absorbed and obsessed with proving himself, but that was because that was the nerve that had been touched, pulled at and torn with sharp razors over the course of many months. It meant that V was badly in need of a slap, a hug, and therapy, in that order. By contrast, saying a person is EVIL makes a statement about the person's behaviour under normal circumstances, not when they've been driven half-mad by the whole campaign world conspiring to better attack their weaknesses.

I agree to a point, but when do excuses to turn towards evil stop and becoming "evil" begin? V's problems are of her own imagination and making, and while I think she is redeemable (which is likely the conclusion of the Angel's report), does she get a free pass for her current behavior? IMO, she's all too close to evil and needs a few more selfless acts (like rescuing O-chul) to get her back to the good side. Of course, she may never have been good to begin with, so perhaps she's closer to redemption than I believe.

As for Roy ignoring the angel and not reading the report, he's still going to be warned by Elan and Haley that V's go through some changes while Roy was gone. Heck, the changes in the party are going to shock Roy, now that I think about it.

And Eugene has given up on lawful and proceeded to "any means necessary" to finish up his blood oath with Xykon. Like others have said, he may be in for a shock when this is all over.

Completely missed the Steve Rogers reference. Awesome one Giant.

[Conuly]

Eugene didn't even read the report to determine if it was something Roy didn't need to know.

He must have at least skimmed it, he commented on it.

[Laketh Stadt]

The Three's Company technique is a bit cliche but it keeps coming back because it serves a useful narrative purpose: the reader gets information about the plot that the protagonist doesn't get. Sure it could have been done after Roy left, but this way you get some reinforcement about Roy's attitude regarding NPCs as well. I don't have a problem with it.

I can see where those of us who were forced to live through first runs of Three's Company could be slightly tired of it. :smallbiggrin:

[jamroar]

Well, Eugene was told that was the reason that HE did not get into heaven. And the reason Roy got into heaven is because he died TRYING to fulfill it.
No, he got into heaven because despite often being complacent about acting Lawful and Good, he does make some effort to try to live up to his alignment (which, incidentally, does not seem to be true for Eugene at the moment).

Eugene's blood oath is only binding on himself.

[Optimystik]

He must have at least skimmed it, he commented on it.

Not necessarily - He commented on V, who he was more than likely scrying on. He watches the members of the Order in his spare time (e.g. Haley showering) and time is one thing he has a boatload of at the moment.

He didn't say anything that would have been specific to the report and not his own knowledge, and we know he can peek through the Cloister.

[Blanth]

Hey, that's why the spell costs 5,000gp.

The minibar is probably stocked with Gouda imported from Cliffport at that price.

[Dalek Kommander]

Ah, the old "you clearly have something important to say so I'm going to talk over you instead while you avoid keywords." That's a cliche I could stand to never see again. Very Three's Company.

I'm more annoyed by the other end of the cliche: "I've got something important to say, but I'm only going to endlessly repeat how important it is and how you should stop everything you're doing and take the time to not only listen to me, but validate my emotional need to be recognized as a very important person for my role in executing the utterly crucial function of conveying this very important information, even at the risk of failing in this duty by prattling endlessly about how important the information is and thus by unstated implication how important I must be for conveying it."

The most utterly infuriating thing about this cliche is that it ISN'T an unrealistic portrayal of how some people talk. It's precisely the kind of reality I read fantasy to ESCAPE from, thank you.

[Haven]

Not necessarily - He commented on V, who he was more than likely scrying on. He watches the members of the Order in his spare time (e.g. Haley showering)

Incidentally, I always assumed that he was just messing with Roy in that instance. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to ask her name.

On Eugene: is it even possible to change alignment posthumously? I mean, the entire point of an afterlife is that it reflects the deeds one did in life.

[ThisIsNotDan]

Wow, it didn't even occur to me that there was something there to get. That's pretty good!

[spargel]

I agree to a point, but when do excuses to turn towards evil stop and becoming "evil" begin? V's problems are of her own imagination and making, and while I think she is redeemable (which is likely the conclusion of the Angel's report), does she get a free pass for her current behavior? IMO, she's all too close to evil and needs a few more selfless acts (like rescuing O-chul) to get her back to the good side. Of course, she may never have been good to begin with, so perhaps she's closer to redemption than I believe.


I always thought V was more neutral than evil, even after the soul splice.

[Badgercloak]

Woot! Nice comic Giant.

[Optimystik]

On Eugene: is it even possible to change alignment posthumously? I mean, the entire point of an afterlife is that it reflects the deeds one did in life.

Technically, he's not in the "afterlife" yet, despite it being literally after his life.

[Simons Mith]

The minibar is probably stocked with Gouda imported from Cliffport at that price.

Drinkable Gouda?! Ewwww!

["It's a bit runny?"]

[Kaytara]

I agree to a point, but when do excuses to turn towards evil stop and becoming "evil" begin? V's problems are of her own imagination and making, and while I think she is redeemable (which is likely the conclusion of the Angel's report), does she get a free pass for her current behavior? IMO, she's all too close to evil and needs a few more selfless acts (like rescuing O-chul) to get her back to the good side. Of course, she may never have been good to begin with, so perhaps she's closer to redemption than I believe.
There are plenty of space between getting a free pass and being completely condemned, though. :) To absolve V of all blame would be to dismiss the idea of free will (although, philosophically, that could be done), but I simply feel that statements like "Boo! V acted like a jerk and killed a lot of dragons and that Kubota guy so he is no evil! " fail to take all the information into account. I appreciate the respectful way in which you replied, by the way. :) If everyone argued like you do the Internet would be a warm and fuzzy place.


I'm more annoyed by the other end of the cliche: "I've got something important to say, but I'm only going to endlessly repeat how important it is and how you should stop everything you're doing and take the time to not only listen to me, but validate my emotional need to be recognized as a very important person for my role in executing the utterly crucial function of conveying this very important information, even at the risk of failing in this duty by prattling endlessly about how important the information is and thus by unstated implication how important I must be for conveying it."

The most utterly infuriating thing about this cliche is that it ISN'T an unrealistic portrayal of how some people talk. It's precisely the kind of reality I read fantasy to ESCAPE from, thank you.

They're bureaucratic devas who are the height of Lawfulness and Goodness. :D It is probably high difficult for her to ignore the set standards in conversation to introduce a client to vital information. What did you expect? :)

[whitemane]

S.Rogers - Who is that?

*clutching heart as I try to keep from succumbing to a heart attack... after breathing deeply I regain my composure...*

You don't know who Steve Rogers is? We are going to have to revoke your Geek Club Membership for that...

OK... Enough of that... Steve Rogers is Captain America. He was killed by an assassins bullet a couple of years ago and is coming back soon.... *yeah!!!*

[Fighteer]

V has always been classically True Neutral, up until the Soul Splice, when it became exactly what the fiends said it was: an excuse for hir to think s/he didn't have to be responsible for the moral consequences of hir actions. Had s/he continued down this path, an alignment change might well have been in order. However, V's "second chance" in Xykon's throne room may well have halted the slide and begun to reverse it. Much is riding on what V does after Durkon frees hir from the Hold Person spell.

As for Eugene, the question of whether actions in the afterlife affect one's alignment is quite relevant here, but has not been answered within the comic. However, to me his alignment has always been more of Lazy Good than Lawful Good. I realize that's not canonical, but it's fun to say.

[Inkling]

I'm confused. What did the deva think Roy could do about V? Or was it just a warning?

Eagerly awaiting #665.

[rewinn]

I always thought V was more neutral than evil, even after the soul splice.

V, Miko and Eugene could host a panel discussion on how far a LG should go to Accomplish a Goal By Any Means Necessary.

Currently no-one in the Order knows about the Familicide, except V, and V seems unlikely to bring it up. From the Order's POV, V got the splint and then proceeded to do quite meritorious actions with it.

It may be, at some point, that the Order is surprised and inconvenienced when V is hunted down by the 75% of the Black Dragon race that is still alive; OTOH Black Dragons may be sufficiently anti-social that they view the Familicide as just leaving more room and treasure for the rest. I don't know.

I cannot agree with the idea that V turned toward evil merely for accepting the Splint, just because there was the option of being beheaded & resurrected. As described in 634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), this plan meant they'd be rescued AFTER being tortured to death, which is something most parents would risk their soul to avoid. Now THAT made the temptation all the more interesting to the reader, and assures V a place on the "By Any Means Necessary" panel. But V gets to chair the panel due to the Familicide: an evil act V justified as necessary.


As for Eugene, the question of whether actions in the afterlife affect one's alignment is quite relevant here, but has not been answered within the comic. However, to me his alignment has always been more of Lazy Good than Lawful Good. I realize that's not canonical, but it's fun to say.
Heh. Extra points for "Lazy Good" !!!

[Optimystik]

V has always been classically True Neutral, up until the Soul Splice, when it became exactly what the fiends said it was: an excuse for hir to think s/he didn't have to be responsible for the moral consequences of hir actions. Had s/he continued down this path, an alignment change might well have been in order. However, V's "second chance" in Xykon's throne room may well have halted the slide and begun to reverse it. Much is riding on what V does after Durkon frees hir from the Hold Person spell.

Precisely! Agreed 110%.


As for Eugene, the question of whether actions in the afterlife affect one's alignment is quite relevant here, but has not been answered within the comic. However, to me his alignment has always been more of Lazy Good than Lawful Good. I realize that's not canonical, but it's fun to say.

I wouldn't call him "lazy" - for a spirit, he's been pretty active in the world and keeping tabs on everything. But as I said earlier, he isn't in the afterlife yet, and they certainly didn't seem happy about him impersonating that Planetar. What I don't understand is why so many people want him to even go to Celestia when it's so doubtful that he'd be happy there? Being in a different afterlife from your family is one thing, being in the same one but forbidden to see them is another entirely. In addition, I can't see how an illusion specialist would appreciate having to be honest for eternity. No, I'd much rather see him in a more liberal heaven.

[Blanth]

Drinkable Gouda?! Ewwww!

["It's a bit runny?"]

Well one is supposed to have a bit of cheese with their wine for ultimate swankiness.

[Damon_Caskey]

Impossible.

First, Resurrection can't raise bodies that have been dead for more than 1 year/level, and Eric has been dead a lot longer than Durkon's 14 levels of cleric would permit.


You are correct on most counts, but Resurrection's time limit is actually 10 years per caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm). Roy's brother is obviously well within Durkon's range.

Still not possible without remains, nor do I care to participate in plot speculation..but I digress.

DC

[Yoyoyo]

There are plenty of space between getting a free pass and being completely condemned, though. :) To absolve V of all blame would be to dismiss the idea of free will (although, philosophically, that could be done), but I simply feel that statements like "Boo! V acted like a jerk and killed a lot of dragons and that Kubota guy so he is no evil! " fail to take all the information into account. I appreciate the respectful way in which you replied, by the way. :) If everyone argued like you do the Internet would be a warm and fuzzy place.

Improving the internet, one post at a time.:smallbiggrin:

And you're right, V is complex and influx in her development. I hope that she changes for the better at the end of all this, when she has had time to reflect on her actions and whether those were the best choices. But as of #664, her status is in doubt.

[Mr. Pin]

This should probably have alarming implications, but I fail to see them. Everyone already knows at least that V "went evil" and V will probably tell them exactly how. The file wouldn't have told Roy anything that he won't know in a few minutes, as far as I can tell.

[Kaytara]

People keep bringing up the idea that Eugene was never certain to get into the LG heaven because he wasn't processed due to the Oath thing... I'm surprised no one has corrected it yet, because we know from SoD that Eugene was actually processed and ready to go the LG heaven when the Celestial processing him saw the Blood Oath. He was also free of offences against his alignment much more major than "editing his own Wikipedia article", heh. I would say his time spent stuck in limbo watching his son ineffectually fumble about while being unable to do much has made him a lot more bitter than he was earlier. It would be interesting if he experienced a post-mortem alignment change... Story-wise, there is certainly nothing stopping him from changing alignment. He has already promised that he won't visit his family in the Afterlife, so whether he keeps that promise of his own choice or because he's no longer IN the same Afterlife doesn't really matter.

[HealthKit]

Roy's coming back!
Yay!

[Yoyoyo]

I wouldn't call him "lazy" - for a spirit, he's been pretty active in the world and keeping tabs on everything. But as I said earlier, he isn't in the afterlife yet, and they certainly didn't seem happy about him impersonating that Planetar. What I don't understand is why so many people want him to even go to Celestia when it's so doubtful that he'd be happy there? Being in a different afterlife from your family is one thing, being in the same one but forbidden to see them is another entirely. In addition, I can't see how an illusion specialist would appreciate having to be honest for eternity. No, I'd much rather see him in a more liberal heaven.

I think the poster meant Roy's lazy in his attitude toward lawfulness. Perhaps a better name is chaotic-lite?

And I think you're right about Eugene not having much fun in LG heaven, but its not like he was a "family man" when he was alive, so maybe he wouldn't care even if he got into Celestia.

[Kaytara]

Improving the internet, one post at a time.:smallbiggrin:

And you're right, V is complex and influx in her development. I hope that she changes for the better at the end of all this, when she has had time to reflect on her actions and whether those were the best choices. But as of #664, her status is in doubt.

It would be extremely interesting if V actually turned GOOD after this - not Evil, not back to Neutral, but Good. I mean, I could certainly see it, and it would be highly awesome from a writing quality point of view, too. Besides, if V became a completely different person, his bargain coming back to bite him would be all the more dramatic and painful.


This should probably have alarming implications, but I fail to see them. Everyone already knows at least that V "went evil" and V will probably tell them exactly how. The file wouldn't have told Roy anything that he won't know in a few minutes, as far as I can tell.

Well, the exact details of the Soul Splice are not something I think Roy will be learning in the next few minutes. Also, I think it's less alarming implications and more Rich resolving potential plot holes, such as "Roy spent a lot of time in Heaven, why didn't anyone tell him about the Splice?

[spargel]

V, Miko and Eugene could host a panel discussion on how far a LG should go to Accomplish a Goal By Any Means Necessary.

Currently no-one in the Order knows about the Familicide, except V, and V seems unlikely to bring it up. From the Order's POV, V got the splint and then proceeded to do quite meritorious actions with it.

It may be, at some point, that the Order is surprised and inconvenienced when V is hunted down by the 75% of the Black Dragon race that is still alive; OTOH Black Dragons may be sufficiently anti-social that they view the Familicide as just leaving more room and treasure for the rest. I don't know.

I cannot agree with the idea that V turned toward evil merely for accepting the Splint, just because there was the option of being beheaded & resurrected. As described in 634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), this plan meant they'd be rescued AFTER being tortured to death, which is something most parents would risk their soul to avoid. Now THAT made the temptation all the more interesting to the reader, and assures V a place on the "By Any Means Necessary" panel. But V gets to chair the panel due to the Familicide: an evil act V justified as necessary.


The familicide was pretty much V's slippery slope act, but everything he's done after that so far was either neutral or good. The familicide was also done for neutral reasons (Revenge and protect the family), so that adds a few points to neutral.

[ScIaDrd]

Finally a new strip:smallbiggrin:
It´s really nice to see Roy fnialy getting rescurrected. The limo was pretty cool I know what kidns of services I´ll be requesting when I die:smallcool:
Eguene is still a kind of an ashole, I can see the burnt report smehow bitnig them in the rear in the near future:smallwink:

[Lamech]

So lets see, Eugene definitly did NOT lie there. "No problem" Would he have a problem showing it? No, and he still might show the ashes. "Appalled" at Xykon winning. He probably doesn't know about familicide, so he wouldn't be appalled by that, and more importantly he probably doesn't suspect that V can be controlled in the prime material plane; hence him thinking that the deva's are being stuck up and not able to see the bigger picture. (Saving the souls of EVERYONE ON THE PRIME.) I don't think Eugene really did much wrong here except for being arrogent; he didn't even bother to read it.

[mcv]

Well one is supposed to have a bit of cheese with their wine for ultimate swankiness.

But for 5000 gp I'd expect something a bit more exclusive than boring old Gouda.

[DrakebloodIV]

How did Roy know that Belkar is going to die soon?

[Tobrian]

I see Roy still hasn't overcome his personality flaw "Player Character Arrogance: Never listens to anything an NPC tries to tell him, even if it's important". :smallsigh:


How did Roy know that Belkar is going to die soon?

The Oracle told him. But I think the whole Belkar is going to die prophecy already happened, in that Belkar almost died from the Mark of Justice. But I may be wrong.

[Bunnywolf]

I'm confused. What did the deva think Roy could do about V? Or was it just a warning?

Eagerly awaiting #665.

The deva conducting Roy's review has agreed that Roy had a restraining influence on Belkar. (With a very nice flipchart.) The same thing would be expected of Roy as far as V is concerned.

Of course, since Roy tore the team members' original contracts, he is no longer officially their employer.

Oh, and I'm completely over the moon that #664 has finally been posted! I was beginning to have uncontrollable tremors...

[Waterchild]

Am I the only one getting tired of Roy--the supposedly intelligent, outside of the box thinker and strategist (the man who gained Durkon's trust by treating "monsters" with respect so long as they behaved)--completely blowing off NPC's with relevant, potentially vital information? The only NPC that isn't middle management or lower that he pays attention to anymore seems to be Ceilia--and that's just 'cause she's easy. :(

You're letting me down, Roy. Seriously.

[mcv]

But I think the whole Belkar is going to die prophecy already happened, in that Belkar almost died from the Mark of Justice. But I may be wrong.

I think you're wrong. Almost dying is quite fundamentally different from dying for real. And so far the Oracle has proven to be amazingly accurate even when very convoluted predictions involving influences by himself or supernatural/divine/fiendish powers are involved. I doubt he'd be fooled by a fevered dream induced by the Mark of Justice.

[Trizap]

.......I think your all reading too much into this

but then again, you always are, despite how pointless it is.

[Milskidasith]

I'm not sure if anybody has posted this, but the maximum amount of time V has had the soul splice is 29 minutes 41 seconds (posted after somebody assumed an error).

In Strip 650, Jephton says that his time is at 19 minutes, 41 seconds and counting. Durkon finishes his Ressurection, and V has had his soul splice broken. Assuming the round hadn't finished so 19 minutes 41 seconds was before any of the time used to cast Ressurection, and somehow no time passed after he lost his soul splice in Xykon's castle, that would be 29 minutes 41 seconds, because of the 10 minute cast time of a Res.

So V probably spent about 25 minutes or so soul spliced, meaning the fiends have a total of around 75 (give or take maybe 10 minutes) to use V for their own purposes. That is still more than enough to do some nasty things with the gates.

[Wiffleboy]

Good comic and love the subtle refrences. Can we expect the fiends to show up on comic #666?

[Kaytara]

So V probably spent about 25 minutes or so soul spliced, meaning the fiends have a total of around 75 (give or take maybe 10 minutes) to use V for their own purposes. That is still more than enough to do some nasty things with the gates.

Assuming 25, it wouldn't be 75. The duration isn't exactly triple the Splice, each fiend gets to possess V's soul for the same duration as V held on to THEIR splice. Since Haerta broke away, her fiend's Splice stopped accumulating in duration. If we assume that V lost Haerta after two minutes of the Splice, that leaves us with 2x25 for Jephton and Gononron plus 2 for Haerta, so about 52 in total.

The exact duration is irrelevant though. It is either enough for the fiends' purposes, or not enough. The better part of an hour most assuredly enters into the "enough" category.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I'm not sure if anybody has posted this, but the maximum amount of time V has had the soul splice is 29 minutes 41 seconds (posted after somebody assumed an error).

In Strip 650, Jephton says that his time is at 19 minutes, 41 seconds and counting. Durkon finishes his Ressurection, and V has had his soul splice broken. Assuming the round hadn't finished so 19 minutes 41 seconds was before any of the time used to cast Ressurection, and somehow no time passed after he lost his soul splice in Xykon's castle, that would be 29 minutes 41 seconds, because of the 10 minute cast time of a Res.

So V probably spent about 25 minutes or so soul spliced, meaning the fiends have a total of around 75 (give or take maybe 10 minutes) to use V for their own purposes. That is still more than enough to do some nasty things with the gates.

Ah, that was me and I missed that bit in 650.
Again, not knowing the full rules for such a Splice, but it may be possible that instead of taking their alloted twentyish minutes each all at once they could do a few minutes here and there.
It'd be much more useful wouln't than just a straight up twenty minutes in which a marginally powerul (level 14/15 I think is the normal assumption) caster could be killed.

[Milskidasith]

Assuming 25, it wouldn't be 75. The duration isn't exactly triple the Splice, each fiend gets to possess V's soul for the same duration as V held on to THEIR splice. Since Haerta broke away, her fiend's Splice stopped accumulating in duration. If we assume that V lost Haerta after two minutes of the Splice, that leaves us with 2x25 for Jephton and Gononron plus 2 for Haerta, so about 52 in total.

The exact duration is irrelevant though. It is either enough for the fiends' purposes, or not enough. The better part of an hour most assuredly enters into the "enough" category.

Well this is ironic; I make a post just to correct somebodies error, and then I wind up failing on small details as well. :smallredface:

But yeah, I'd assume that he had Haerta for around 17 minutes, so whichever alignment she is (I'm not sure; I'm pretty sure Jephton is CE, but that's all) gets the short end of the wand in terms of time they get to control V.

[Snake-Aes]

The splice was over much before V came back. He's been spliced 5 minutes into Resurrection, tops.

[Fighteer]

I think the poster meant Roy's lazy in his attitude toward lawfulness. Perhaps a better name is chaotic-lite?
Exactly correct - Eugene's observation of the Lawful portion of his alignment has always seemed more of a technicality than an enthusiastic commitment. It goes back to what the deva who interviewed Roy said - using Chaotic means to achieve Lawful ends is Neutral.

Eugene could even be considered a deliberate stereotype of players who write Lawful on their character sheets but in practice are pretty lazy about actually following rules and keeping up with their promises. Of course, when the DM calls them on it, they get defensive and come up with all sorts of justifications for why they weren't "technically" in violation of their alignment. It's a classic Munchkin attitude. Thus, the phrase I coined -- Lazy Good -- isn't talking about their work ethic, but their attentiveness to the spirit of what it means to be Lawful.

It's also highly likely that, since Eugene has not actually made it into the official afterlife, he's still "on the hook" for his actions.

[Nu]

Hm...would Eugene be judged for his deeds in the limbo-afterlife, or is he only judged based on what he did while he was alive? He may be doing this because he can get away with it.

[Fighteer]

Hm...would Eugene be judged for his deeds in the limbo-afterlife, or is he only judged based on what he did while he was alive? He may be doing this because he can get away with it.
Or because he thinks he can get away with it. Which speaks more revealingly of his true alignment than just about anything else -- witness the fiends' discussion about Vaarsuvius' behavior during the Soul Splice.

[Kaytara]

But yeah, I'd assume that he had Haerta for around 17 minutes, so whichever alignment she is (I'm not sure; I'm pretty sure Jephton is CE, but that's all) gets the short end of the wand in terms of time they get to control V.

Well, I agree about the short end part, but how 17 minutes? V gets the Splice and immediately leaves to fight the dragon. The entire fight lasts, what, six rounds? After that, V immediately frees Kyrie and proceeds to cast the Familicide, has a short conversation with the mother dragon head and disintegrates it. He is then confronted by Kyrie, at which point Haerta pops free. I'm seeing around two minutes of action there, factoring in the tidbits of conversation.

[Optimystik]

I think the poster meant Roy's lazy in his attitude toward lawfulness. Perhaps a better name is chaotic-lite?

We were talking about Eugene actually, not Roy.


It would be extremely interesting if V actually turned GOOD after this - not Evil, not back to Neutral, but Good. I mean, I could certainly see it, and it would be highly awesome from a writing quality point of view, too. Besides, if V became a completely different person, his bargain coming back to bite him would be all the more dramatic and painful.

I'm as eager for V to get redeemed and rejoin the White Hats as the next guy, but I don't think it will or should happen until AFTER this whole Soul Splice thing is fully dealt with. That bargain is way too much of an albatross for his alignment.


Well, I agree about the short end part, but how 17 minutes? V gets the Splice and immediately leaves to fight the dragon. The entire fight lasts, what, six rounds? After that, V immediately frees Kyrie and proceeds to cast the Familicide, has a short conversation with the mother dragon head and disintegrates it. He is then confronted by Kyrie, at which point Haerta pops free. I'm seeing around two minutes of action there, factoring in the tidbits of conversation.

Before you go calculating times, you should know that Create Greater Undead has a listed cast time of 1 hour. Obviously it didn't take that long, but we can't be 100% sure how long he had Haerta.

[fruityjanitor]

Nice to see that Eugene respects somebody besides himself :smallsmile:

And I didn't get the S. Rogers reference, but after it was explained to me, I think it was a nice touch!

[siobharek]

I was really worried about Eugene's helpfulness, until I remembered that it's also in HIS best interest to see Xykon go down.

But I do look forward to seeing what Roy's Archon's going to do.

[aka Argent]

Once again Roy shows us why dump-statting Wisdom for Intelligence is a bad deal for Fighters. But it's those little flaws that make him so fun. And because of his oblivious attitude, he obviously has been putting his scheme with his Archon together instead of watching what's been going on with V for the past half-hour.

Eugene once again proves he's a bigger jerk in death than he was in life. I agree that by destroying that report he's probably changed his final judgment outcome, but only if he were to be judged right now - there's still time for him to make up for it, but I doubt he will. He probably won't even try unless what happens when the Fiends activate the splice on V interferes with the fulfilling of the Blood Oath.

[Fighteer]

I was really worried about Eugene's helpfulness, until I remembered that it's also in HIS best interest to see Xykon go down.

But I do look forward to seeing what Roy's Archon's going to do.
I'm not sure that Eugene's motivation was anything but selfish there. After all, whether Roy calls V out on hir actions or not is kind of irrelevant to whether they defeat Xykon, and denying him plot-relevant information is certainly going to come back to bite them later -- say, when the IFCC decides to call in their marker at the most inopportune moment.

Besides, Eugene -- supposedly a Lawful Good character -- just intentionally ignored a direct request from a Celestial being. He did so not because he wanted to help Roy, but because he's got a long standing bias in favor of wizards. Two points if you recognize that this is a Chaotic act.

As for the Archon, this is exactly the sort of Chekhov's Gun that may or may not become important later.

[Wildrose]

I'm not sure if Rich's timing here is good or bad - S. Rogers is my grandad's name. He died a couple of months ago and is very sadly missed. I wish he was being resurrected :smallfrown:

(I'm aware there's another S. Rogers, but my grandad is totally the most important one!)

[Supagoof]

Well, I agree about the short end part, but how 17 minutes? V gets the Splice and immediately leaves to fight the dragon. The entire fight lasts, what, six rounds? After that, V immediately frees Kyrie and proceeds to cast the Familicide, has a short conversation with the mother dragon head and disintegrates it. He is then confronted by Kyrie, at which point Haerta pops free. I'm seeing around two minutes of action there, factoring in the tidbits of conversation.The larger question is - since Haerta escaped the splice - does the time Haerta spends free still count. V technically still hasn't disbanded the souls - they all escaped from her. What if she has to gather them all up before the duration is considered over?

[Optimystik]

Once again Roy shows us why dump-statting Wisdom for Intelligence is a bad deal for Fighters. But it's those little flaws that make him so fun. And because of his oblivious attitude, he obviously has been putting his scheme with his Archon together instead of watching what's been going on with V for the past half-hour.

Actually, Roy has fairly high Wisdom - both the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) and his deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) say so.

His problem is that he has a tendency to ignore NPCs, just like any self-important PC would.

[Drizzt]

I love the limosine. Eugine yet again disappointed me with his stupidity. I'm hopin there is some loop to what the oracle said so that belkar will live

[factotum]

A quick note on all the people who suggest that Roy might want Eric to be raised--didn't he say when he first saw him that they'd already tried that and it failed? Also, what exactly would Roy DO with a 2-3 year old child if he DID get Durkon to resurrect him? He's not exactly in a position to be a father figure, what with the need to save the world and all!

[Kaytara]

I'm as eager for V to get redeemed and rejoin the White Hats as the next guy, but I don't think it will or should happen until AFTER this whole Soul Splice thing is fully dealt with. That bargain is way too much of an albatross for his alignment.
I don't know... It's the classic "Hero puts his dark past behind him but an aspect of it comes back to haunt him" course, you know? I could see it go either way, but IMO it WOULD be very dramatic if V's bargain kicked in just as he was starting to act like an actually GOOD guy.


Before you go calculating times, you should know that Create Greater Undead has a listed cast time of 1 hour. Obviously it didn't take that long, but we can't be 100% sure how long he had Haerta.
Considering that Kyrie barely seems to have budged after being unpinned from the tree when we see V cast Familicide, I think it's safe to say that Rich just house-ruled the duration on this one.

[Adomorn]

God....I hate Eugene so MUCH XD

[Kaytara]

The part about Eugene denying Roy valuable information... I don't think the Celestials KNOW the exact terms of the Soul Splice. The Time Stop probably prevented them from actually witnessing the bargain. All the know is that V opened a letter from the Lower Planes, received a Soul Splice right afterwards and then did some horrifying things. They probably want to let Roy know because he is Roy's leader and not only best in a position to influence him back to Good but also the one who should know if his subordinate has started acting dodgy. They do not seem to deem it urgent, to the point where the deva just hands the report to Eugene to give to Roy whenever he next gets the opportunity.

If they actually knew that V is a ticking time bomb, I'd expect they'd be a lot more concerned than just "Mr. Greenhilt, you should take a look at this"....

[Optimystik]

Considering that Kyrie barely seems to have budged after being unpinned from the tree when we see V cast Familicide, I think it's safe to say that Rich just house-ruled the duration on this one.

That could easily be explained by shock. My point is that attempts to calculate how long Haerta was present down to the second are pretty futile. We know that Jeph and Ganon put him in hock for 20 minutes each., and we know that Haerta will be less than that... and that's it.

[Fighteer]

I don't know... It's the classic "Hero puts his dark past behind him but an aspect of it comes back to haunt him" course, you know? I could see it go either way, but IMO it WOULD be very dramatic if V's bargain kicked in just as he was starting to act like an actually GOOD guy.
Or when the OotS are standing victorious over a Gate. There's so much potential for disaster here that it makes me shiver.



Before you go calculating times, you should know that Create Greater Undead has a listed cast time of 1 hour. Obviously it didn't take that long, but we can't be 100% sure how long he had Haerta. Considering that Kyrie barely seems to have budged after being unpinned from the tree when we see V cast Familicide, I think it's safe to say that Rich just house-ruled the duration on this one.
Xykon has also been seen to zombify creatures of more HD than can be affected by create undead without spending an hour to do so; however, in this case V just needed a self-aware undead; he didn't actually need it to have any special abilities. So a certain amount of house ruling is likely.

In fact, the only known use of create greater undead or its equivalent was by Redcloak when he created the Death Knight, Huecuva, and Eye of Fear and Flame prior to the battle for Azure City, and he had plenty of time in which to do so.

Edit: I just reread the comic where V deals with the dragon and s/he did in fact cast create greater undead. So obviously the casting time is houseruled.

[JVWest]

I love these current OOTS discussion threads...by the time I read the strip the discussion thread is on page #9971!

Don't matter no how 'cuz Roy's on the highway from Heaven baby!

Will we eventually see Roy and V square off? Will Steve Rogers and Nale become intimate in a Biblical way? Where is Jimmy Hoffa?

Great strip as usual. OOTS continues to be a top notch comic.

[Kaytara]

That could easily be explained by shock. My point is that attempts to calculate how long Haerta was present down to the second are pretty futile. We know that Jeph and Ganon put him in hock for 20 minutes each., and we know that Haerta will be less than that... and that's it.

I'm wondering if it's actually going to be relevant. The IFCC fiends seem to be all about equality and cooperation between the fiend races, to the point where a succubus is working for someone whose names stands for Lawful Evil and their behaviour in general cannot be used to determine their alignment. They also seem rather annoyed when Haerta breaks free. If one fiend gets less soul time than the other two, could it lead to infighting and backstabbing for the three, to display that cooperation between the fiend races is not possible, after all?

[Njord]

You mean "even more jerkass points"? I guess he soon should have collected enough "Bonus Jerkass Miles" to trade them for "an 1A Alignment Shift".

No he just got awesome points. I really enjoyed what he did and what he said.

though i seem to be the only one to think that....

I also seem to be the only one who does not think it was an evil action at all: merely chaotic.

Couldnt think of anything Deus ex machina for Roy to found out about V's action in such way, which would in fact let me very frustrated.

Thank you Eugene.

[Kaytara]

I'm honestly not sure why everyone seems to have interpreted Eugene's comment as agreement with V selling/leasing his soul to the fiends. The way I see it, it was more along the lines of "Here's someone who's willing to get their hands dirty and take the bull by the horns for a change. Almost got the job done, too, certainly lots more than my idiot son accomplished. And did it with the use of good old reliable, flawless magic. Good effort, kid."

A stance that is debatable on many levels, but I'm not reading much of "OMG, Eugene totally doesn't care for ethics!" there.

[Njord]

I completely agree with Kaytara :)

[Prowl]

One hardly needs the official report when one has been scrying the situation firsthand all the while.

[Optimystik]

I'm wondering if it's actually going to be relevant. The IFCC fiends seem to be all about equality and cooperation between the fiend races, to the point where a succubus is working for someone whose names stands for Lawful Evil and their behaviour in general cannot be used to determine their alignment. They also seem rather annoyed when Haerta breaks free. If one fiend gets less soul time than the other two, could it lead to infighting and backstabbing for the three, to display that cooperation between the fiend races is not possible, after all?

I hope not - I like the idea of the IFCC, and they would be a nice lead-in to "4e OotS" (since a similar fiendish collaboration is what led to 4th Edition D&D.)

[skinkatlarge]

More kudos for the Captain America bit and Elan's comment. :D

It's interesting that OotS readers seem far more likely to think of AC/DC than Michael Landon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_To_Heaven). I did first, too. :)

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but the evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) (third panel) suggests that Eugene isn't going to be kicked out. Makes you wonder how the LG community likes living for eternity with people who get really, really off-track on that climb to perfect spiritual enlightenment.

I agree with the folks who think V's showing signs of learning from hir mistakes. I'm really hoping elves can meditate while paralyzed, and/or that the first thing V does when the Hold is dispelled* is to get some zzzz's - or ommmms, as the case may be.

Like father, like son (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html) (fifth panel from the end). Like mother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) a bit, too (second from end).

*Which reminds me - I don't know D&D well anymore, but I had the vague idea that you got a new save every round versus Holds. Has V just given up?

[Optimystik]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but the evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) (third panel) suggests that Eugene isn't going to be kicked out. Makes you wonder how the LG community likes living for eternity with people who get really, really off-track on that climb to perfect spiritual enlightenment.


Roy's Archon's comment indicates he's not going to Hell, and I don't think he belongs there either. That doesn't mean he belongs in Celestia. I could see him in any of the CG, NG, CN or TN afterlives.

[Fighteer]

I'm honestly not sure why everyone seems to have interpreted Eugene's comment as agreement with V selling/leasing his soul to the fiends. The way I see it, it was more along the lines of "Here's someone who's willing to get their hands dirty and take the bull by the horns for a change. Almost got the job done, too, certainly lots more than my idiot son accomplished. And did it with the use of good old reliable, flawless magic. Good effort, kid."

A stance that is debatable on many levels, but I'm not reading much of "OMG, Eugene totally doesn't care for ethics!" there.
I absolutely don't think that Eugene committed an Evil act. I do think that by disobeying a direct request from a Lawful being, while deliberately leaving her with the impression that he would do what she asked, he was being Chaotic. And I really don't think that "save the world" was top on his list of reasons for doing so.


*Which reminds me - I don't know D&D well anymore, but I had the vague idea that you got a new save every round versus Holds. Has V just given up?
He can attempt a new save every round, but if the DC is high enough he's very unlikely to make it before the duration expires.

[Zanaril]

I agree with the folks who think V's showing signs of learning from hir mistakes. I'm really hoping elves can meditate while paralyzed, and/or that the first thing V does when the Hold is dispelled* is to get some zzzz's - or ommmms, as the case may be.

*Which reminds me - I don't know D&D well anymore, but I had the vague idea that you got a new save every round versus Holds. Has V just given up?

Maybe one of the bumps to the head while being tossed around knocked V out and it just doesn't show. :smalltongue:

[Jimorian]

I think I'm most curious about what the archon's task is going to be. At first I was wondering if it has to do with preserving Roy's memories from the afterlife, but I still don't know if that's going to be an issue or not.

Hmmmm. :smallconfused:

[Zeku]

Eugene: The new Miko.

And let me push the pendulum as hard as I can: Eugene is freaking awesome. Leasing your soul to demons is just like any other moral compromise. It's a means to an end. Wizards understand the power of the gray area, and Roy is too much of a baby to see that.

Roy hasn't really changed. He's always been the "good guy but still really stuck up and oblivious to anything outside his worldview."

[Kaytara]

He can attempt a new save every round, but if the DC is high enough he's very unlikely to make it before the duration expires.

Well, O-Chul made the save. He's primarily a fighter with low will saves and only has a few levels in paladin. He seems to have high WIS.

V has moderate WIS and has 14 levels of Wizard with will saves being the highest save.

In my eyes that should put them at roughly equal chances of making the save on the best possible roll. (Feel free to correct my stance if it happens to be horribly flawed.) Which makes the idea that Xykon's DC is just high enough for O-Chul to make but not high enough for V, even on a roll of 20, somewhat suspect. And it's even more unlikely that V hasn't rolled a single twenty in all the rounds since he's been paralyzed.

I'd chalk it up to some more of chance and luck screwing with V to propel him in the right direction, character-wise. It definitely looks like he's staying paralyzed until Durkon gets around to fixing him. Quite likely he'll be forgotten while everyone is congratulating Roy with coming back from the dead. It would deliver an Aesop on teamwork and needing your friends, and all that. XD

(Personally, I realise that this is supposed to be karma for him... But come on. Within the last twenty-five or so minutes, he's already been smashed by a huge rock, yelled at and painfully rejected by his mate, shown painfully and bluntly how much his teammates don't actually need him, smashed by a huge rock again, beaten to within an inch of his life, nearly strangled to death, paralyzed and then almost killed by a Meteor Swarm cast into his eye. And now he's unable to break free of the spell after the paladin made it on his third attempt or so. And the last four things have all happened AFTER he presumably already started to learn his lesson. Can't you give the poor guy a break? :smalltongue:)

[Porthos]

About V's save:

It's perfectly possible that V is now under the affects of Paralyzing Touch from when Xykon attempted to Meteor Swarm both V and O-Chul. In this scenario V was first under the affects of Mass Hold Person, and later was under the affects of Paralyzing Touch.

Really, it's just about the only way to explain how V is still frozen presuming that a fair amount of time has passed. :smallsmile:

[Sutremaine]

Actually, Roy has fairly high Wisdom - both the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)....
Wait a minute. Didn't that one used to talk about what the 'brain-eating monstrosity' was thinking? (I don't know where my DCF book is.) Kind of pointless to name a creature and then have a joke in the next strip about how you can't name it on-panel.

[Dalek Kommander]

The Oracle told him. But I think the whole Belkar is going to die prophecy already happened, in that Belkar almost died from the Mark of Justice. But I may be wrong.

Belkar is still breathing, so the prophecy that he will "draw his last breath ever" has definitely not yet come to pass.

No word on whether he's been checking his 401k...

[Haven]

Wait a minute. Didn't that one used to talk about what the 'brain-eating monstrosity' was thinking? (I don't know where my DCF book is.) Kind of pointless to name a creature and then have a joke in the next strip about how you can't name it on-panel.

No, that's what it always said.


Really, it's just about the only way to explain how V is still frozen presuming that a fair amount of time has passed.

Xykon's save DC is probably REALLY high. Plus V probably has some huge will save penalties for having not tranced for as long as he has.

[Kaytara]

About V's save:

It's perfectly possible that V is now under the affects of Paralyzing Touch from when Xykon attempted to Meteor Swarm both V and O-Chul. In this scenario V was first under the affects of Mass Hold Person, and later was under the affects of Paralyzing Touch.

Really, it's just about the only way to explain how V is still frozen presuming that a fair amount of time has passed. :smallsmile:

I wondered about that (in an earlier post, actually), but I think it makes no sense because Xykon was about to kill them, anyway....

[talkamancer]

Simple question here. Will the resurected Roy have painfull "stones" from where Hayley shot him when they were running from MITD?

[Optimystik]

I wondered about that (in an earlier post, actually), but I think it makes no sense because Xykon was about to kill them, anyway....

There's always the chance that he zapped V with it accidentally (like he did to Right-Eye.) He may have been angry enough to lose control, just like he was elated in SoD.


Simple question here. Will the resurected Roy have painfull "stones" from where Hayley shot him when they were running from MITD?

No, because his "stones" were long gone, so the ones recreated by Durkon's spell will be fresh.

[Susil]

I absolutely don't think that Eugene committed an Evil act. I do think that by disobeying a direct request from a Lawful being, while deliberately leaving her with the impression that he would do what she asked, he was being Chaotic. And I really don't think that "save the world" was top on his list of reasons for doing so.



Whilst I agree with the first bit, I don't think 'save the world' has ever been Eugine's intention, not firstly. Getting his revenge on Xykon? If he thinks it'll help acheive that end, then yeah.

[Fighteer]

Whilst I agree with the first bit, I don't think 'save the world' has ever been Eugine's intention, not firstly. Getting his revenge on Xykon? If he thinks it'll help acheive that end, then yeah.
Revenge is not a Lawful motive, anyway. By his own words Eugene seemed to be acting in a fit of pique that someone would dare disapprove of a fellow wizard who almost fulfilled his Oath. Petty and spiteful is the name of that game.

[mcv]

Eugene isn't doing anything particularly evil, but I've never seen him do anything particularly good either. And while he's not particularly chaotic, he's not particularly lawful either.

I'd say he's neutral. With some tendencies towards good or lawful perhaps, but not very strong tendencies.

[Zeku]

Revenge isn't a lawful motive?

Law is formalized revenge.

[Wonton]

Come on guys, it's obvious. Roy will return in #665, and in #666, Vaarsuvius will be taken over and go evil. :P

[motub]

Obviously it didn't take that long, but we can't be 100% sure how long he had Haerta.
Actually, we can be fairly sure, because we get a splice "time-check" in #650.... at the time V realizes how long the Resurrection is going to take and decides to leave, the splice has been active 19 minutes and 41 seconds. Since Haerta was lost quite some time before (relatively speaking), given that between the time of losing Haerta and getting the time check, V had had the fight with hir mate, teleported to the Fleet, had a conversation with Kazumi and Daigo, teleported the Fleet, teleported to Greysky, had a reunion, waited around a bit while Haley and Belkar did their business, teleported the party to the Abandoned Elven fort, stomped the bone golem, waited while Haley got the diamond, and had the beginnings of a conversation with Haley over the length of time the Resurrection was going to take, during which one of the splices said that the splice had been in existence for 19 minutes 41 seconds.

So while it's true that we don't know the exact amount of time V had Haerta, all of the events that occurred between the time shi lost Haerta and 19:41 must have taken more than 2 minutes-- I'd actually say..... about 10 (which would make the title of 650 a double joke, since not only could a lot happen in the next ten minutes, but a lot would have happened in both previous groups of 10 minutes).

Anyway, a nice comic... loved the Rainbow Highway from Heaven, and the really fast limo (with minibar!). It was nice that such a special event as someone caring enough to spend a 5000 GP diamond to bring you back to life was treated as a special event under the "rules of conduct" of the Outer Planes; I never thought about it, but it's perfectly appropriate, and I'm glad that Rich did think about it. I also liked Roy having such a nice goodbye with Roy's Archon; I'm glad Roy got to like it. I wonder what Roy's Archon will do "as agreed", and if it will in fact work (since Roy's Archon isn't sure if it will, whatever it is and is meant to accomplish).

I liked the officious and annoying Angel... normally one doesn't think of Angels like that, so it was funny. Though you have to wonder how she keeps her position if she's so ineffective in actually getting things done.... that handing over of kinda supposedly important information to Eugene because he "occasionally manifests" to the intended recipient of that important communiqué seems remarkably lax all of a sudden.

.... unless of course it was a test for Eugene and it is known that the information will get to Roy in some other way, if he in fact needs it, which he may not.

After all, Eugene is essentially in Limbo. He's in the LG "waiting room" because he was presumably LG when he died, but isn't it kinda the whole point of Limbo that-- because there is some impediment to your "final evaluation" so that you are unable to be sent to your deserved reward-- that one is being evaluated the whole time one is in this state of uncertainty, so that at the point that your case becomes "handle-able", you can then be slotted into the "correct" afterlife?

I don't see it at all as a given that when Roy fulfills the Blood Oath (which seems likely to occur), Eugene will just waltz into Celestia because he was LG when he died, without reference to any of his... somewhat less than perfectly LG.... actions while he was "a being without a country" so to speak.

As such, since the time when Eugene's final status will be free to be determined seems to be closing fairly fast (in Celestial terms), I wouldn't be overwhelmingly surprised to discover that the administration is utilizing real, but unimportant situations as a test to determine whether Celestia will still be an appropriate place for Eugene when he finally "passes on".

I must say, I kinda admire the moxie of basically flipping a bird at an Angel, in Celestia of all places (or just outside it, anyway), but I don't think it was a particularly optimal move, and I hope he gets what he deserves for behaving that way. I do hope that Roy doesn't suffer (more) for it, though-- he's done his best to cover all the options he could, but as with his extensive planning for his Oracle question, we know that he can miss a critical "loophole" and some idjit with a banana peel can pooch all his plans in a minute. I really hope that the Celestials weren't actually depending on Eugene (I shudder at the thought) to get this information to Roy, if it was truly that mission-critical for Roy's future afterlife to know the contents of that file.

I was glad that Roy has allowed his father to become part of the "intel" team, though-- even though he's not reliable or dependable, he is Roy's father, and it's good that they've mended their relationship enough to "work together" to some extent. That can only work in Roy's favor when he next comes to be evaluated for his afterlife (many, many years hence). It's also nice that Roy's "keeping his hand in" in terms of team leadership; not that Roy's Archon and Eugene are much of a "team", but at least he's keeping in practice :smallsmile:.

Dang, being a cleric is boring, isn't it? LOL. Sure, every so often you get to grow real big and smash goblins (or Druids) with your hammer, but most of the time it's standing around holdng a skull and saying "Resurrection!" several times a minute for 10 minutes. Maybe that's not so boring if you're a dwarf, though.

This was all so low-key-- nice, and quite a pretty comic, as well, but low-key-- that it didn't seem like much. But there's so much repressed information and knowledge just dying to burst free in all directions, that I find myself on tenterhooks anyway.

But I'm willing to wait and suffer, as long as the next comic gives Roy's return all the fanfare it so richly deserves. I feel certain that that will be a comic even I will call "epic" :smallsmile:.

[Besyanteo]

That almost every strip can inspire a brand new debate is a testament to Rich's ability to throw us all for a loop several times a week :smallsmile:



It's (Roy's Sword) more than likely in Haley's Bag of Holding along with his other personal effects (so that she didn't have to carry them.) She would have put him in there too if it weren't for Belkar's MoJ.

Spoilered for the sake of the children. :smallredface:
So, I hate to be the child minded poster who laughs at fart jokes, but is anyone else amused to realize that this implies that after the miraculous conclusion to Durkon's resurrection spell, there's going to be a long awkward moment where Roy appears Naked? And possibly a follow-up joke where Elan realizes that Roy wasn't invisible as a result of that?

Edit:

Come on guys, it's obvious. Roy will return in #665, and in #666, Vaarsuvius will be taken over and go evil. :P

I'd argue that that's precisely why absolutely nothing special will happen in #666. :smalltongue:

[waterpenguin43]

Something I've noticed about the Soul Splice is that with the possible exception of annihilating 1/4 of the black dragon population worldwide, Vaarsivus didn't actually do anythin evil at all.:smallamused:

[Tenebrais]

Something I've noticed about the Soul Splice is that with the possible exception of annihilating 1/4 of the black dragon population worldwide, Vaarsivus didn't actually do anythin evil at all.:smallamused:

Well, other than the soul splice itself. I'm pretty sure making deals with devils and demons is evil, whatever you're doing it for. I suspect if it weren't for that and V somehow did all the same things under his own power, there would be rather less debate over his alignment. (I daren't say none - alignment is one of those things that's really easy to argue about since it seems pretty hard to pin down.)

[Optimystik]

Dang, being a cleric is boring, isn't it? LOL. Sure, every so often you get to grow real big and smash goblins (or Druids) with your hammer, but most of the time it's standing around holdng a skull and saying "Resurrection!" several times a minute for 10 minutes. Maybe that's not so boring if you're a dwarf, though.

Being a Cleric is actually lots of fun. ("Whooo! Wind Walk!") It's Durkon that's boring... he'd even be dull as a Binder :smallsigh:

[pendell]

Revenge isn't a lawful motive?

Law is formalized revenge.

I disagree. Law is punishment and deterrence, which are a different thing from revenge altogether. Another key difference is that punishment by law is supposed to be done by an impartial third party. Revenge is done by the afflicted or next of kin to 'pay back' the offender. The second leads to never-ending blood feud. The first -- the rule of law -- is the cornerstone of civilization and society.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lord Loss]

Imagine that in a comic book: "Heroes Dying, then Coming Back." That has never happened before, so this is a total shock!

Actually Superman died at some point and then... Y'know what, screw it.

Asmodeus: EUGENE! EUGENE! EUGENE!

*Chucks into Nine Hells*

Eugene: AGGGGGH


Three Months Later

Eugene: Goddamit why am I here... Hi Xykon!

Xykon: So... You're who again? Ogden Purpleblade?

[infiniteviking]

Good comic -- plot's moving right along. S. Rogers... bwahahaha! The rainbow Highway was funny, but to tell the truth, I was even more amused at the bland green road sign. And anyone else hope we haven't seen the last of the angel with the glasses?

Also, I find myself hoping that V has been conscious and aware ever since he was first paralyzed. It'd give him a nice chance to have a good long think. XD



And he was becoming increasingly self-absorbed and obsessed with proving himself, but that was because that was the nerve that had been touched, pulled at and torn with sharp razors over the course of many months. It meant that V was badly in need of a slap, a hug, and therapy, in that order.

True words there. Come to think of it, that'd make a good AU what-if fic for the new ff.net category.....


Varsnuffalufagus

*DIES LAUGHING*