So what IS going to happen to Eugene?

[Mask]

Allright, the comic comment thread is thick with posts going, in variable force, "Eugene will rot in hell", so I thought it might merit it's own thread.

Now, from a purely narrative point of view, this would make sense. Or at least some Chaotic Neutral afterlife, or something. But is sort of raises the question if Eugene is still "under review" so to speak.

I mean, apparently he already had his "interview", because he was told he cannot get on the mountain because of the blood oath. This would imply that he can get there once the blood oath is resolved. So the question is, is he going to have another review once the oath is resolved, or is it enough to just die Lawful Good to pass?

[Morty]

Roy's Archon's remark that "they're past the point where it's a realistic possibility" when Roy says Eugene can roth in Hell - ah, how do I love a healthy child/parent relationship - indicates that he's guaranteed to go to Celestia if his Blood Oath is fulfilled.

[thubby]

Allright, the comic comment thread is thick with posts going, in variable force, "Eugene will rot in hell", so I thought it might merit it's own thread.

Now, from a purely narrative point of view, this would make sense. Or at least some Chaotic Neutral afterlife, or something. But is sort of raises the question if Eugene is still "under review" so to speak.

I mean, apparently he already had his "interview", because he was told he cannot get on the mountain because of the blood oath. This would imply that he can get there once the blood oath is resolved. So the question is, is he going to have another review once the oath is resolved, or is it enough to just die Lawful Good to pass?

well it would be a weird kind of LG heaven if it could have CE people in it (and given that it's existed since the world started, someone CE would be in by now).

besides, we don't know how the "interview" works. it could be that the oath is a quick pass/fail at the door, to be followed by a proper evaluation upon resolution.

[jamroar]

Roy's Archon's remark that "they're past the point where it's a realistic possibility" when Roy says Eugene can roth in Hell - ah, how do I love a healthy child/parent relationship - indicates that he's guaranteed to go to Celestia if his Blood Oath is fulfilled.

Maybe someone else will kill Xykon permanently and Eugene is stranded out there on his cloud for good with an unfulfillable oath?

[Kronno]

I think there are 2 seperate interesting questions here:

1. SHOULD he be allowed in to LG heaven?

2. Will the SYSTEM IN THIS WORLD let him into LG heaven?

Which one is this thread meant to be about?
if #1, then I think he's definitively proven in this new strip that he sees ethics as completely secondary so he is definitely neutral at least.
if #2, then I'm betting re-evaluations are rare in a Lawful celestial Bureacracy, but I'm also betting they aren't impossible seeing as this bureacracy seeks to serve good. I'm betting Eugene is in for some nasty shocks when he finds out THE BOOK has a statute of limitations on his judgement (or something similar) and he needs to be retested.

[Morty]

Maybe someone else will kill Xykon permanently and Eugene is stranded out there on his cloud for good with an unfulfillable oath?

That's a possibility. But if Roy or Julia off Xykon, it seems that Eugene will be accepted in the LG afterlife. Then again, an off-hand remark from a low-rank archon might not mean all that much.

[Needle]

I understood it this way: He died LG, so he'll be on the "LG Cloud" until some Deva comes and evaluates all his actions. And that will take a while (or a whole) since Eugene needs Xykon to die to be able to get "his interview"

Once he's interviewed, they'll kick his ass to the TN or CN realm, whichever is more fit to him. Just remember Roy's interview, the Deva said "Doing Chatoic acts to fulfill Lawful goals strikes me as Neutral for me", and Roy was just accepted onto the LG realm because "he kept trying", in other words, he was one point away to being switched to the NG realm/alignment.

So yeah, Eugene is still there because his character sheet had a "Alignment: LG" when he died, and the Celestial couldn't evaluate him because The Book says he needs his oath to fulfill (sp?)

[Laughing Dragon]

I think there are 2 seperate interesting questions here:

1. SHOULD he be allowed in to LG heaven?

2. Will the SYSTEM IN THIS WORLD let him into LG heaven?

Which one is this thread meant to be about?
if #1, then I think he's definitively proven in this new strip that he sees ethics as completely secondary so he is definitely neutral at least.
if #2, then I'm betting re-evaluations are rare in a Lawful celestial Bureacracy, but I'm also betting they aren't impossible seeing as this bureacracy seeks to serve good. I'm betting Eugene is in for some nasty shocks when he finds out THE BOOK has a statute of limitations on his judgement (or something similar) and he needs to be retested.


besides, we don't know how the "interview" works. it could be that the oath is a quick pass/fail at the door, to be followed by a proper evaluation upon resolution.

While you both have it right IMHO, I think that Thubby is somewhat closer.

Eugene's life was not evaluated per se, he had a conditional clause attached which created a "pass/fail" situation. Until that is resolved ("pass" condition) he does not need to be evaluated. He also (probably) cannot be judged harshly for doing things that the other souls inside "heaven" are doing, as that would be hypocritical.

However, this SPECIFIC act went against a SPECIFIC request by a member of the LG Celestial Heirarchy; as anyone who has rubbed up against a bureacracy can tell you, pissing off a high-level secretary can be really bad for you in the end. Also, Eugene's actions are still effecting those who are still living; which in my book means that he can still be judged by those rules. This flagrent act of disregarding the authorities could very well get him booted from the LG afterlife, and I can think of few things that would tend to make Roy happier.

Needle makes a very good point ... I very much agree with him!

[xyzzy]

It seems to be the general concensus from the discussion that Eugene isn't the only one taking the road to evil at the moment. So, is he just being what we've seen of him so far, and he's just a jerk, or is it possible that he's actively conspiring to do evil? And if so, with who?

It's been stated that his case of getting into Celestia has already been settled, so he definitely has the opportunity to. Plus, he seemed uncharacteristically nice in 664, especially for ending off the comic with such an evil act.

If he is, in fact, intentionally trying to help the cause of evil, who is he working with?

[Ancalagon]

I think he's going to shift into the true neutral alignemnt.

For the jerkass stuff he did being dead he's surely not going to get evil. It's mean, sometimes it might even be partly evil, but it's basically just extremely selfish.

He's also not very lawful anymore, but I doubt it'll be enough to shift him to chaotic.

So it comes down that "he's not really good but extremely selfish anymore", which makes him neutral and he's "not really lawful anymore", which would make him "True Neutral". To be honest, I think that would not such a bad afterlife for him. He could be himself there and would not have to bother about anything but him. He'd like that.

[Optimystik]

It looks like he won't be going to Celestia. Which is fine - the man ain't LG by my books. In addition, going to a different afterlife will allow him to keep his promise to Roy.

[Ancalagon]

I think more he's taking the road to neutral at the moment. He is basically utterly selfish, but that alone does not make him evil.

Apart from that, he's collecting jerkass points as no other in this comic (maybe only comparable to Xykon, who also is mostly a jerk).

[Optimystik]

Not following the Deva's instructions is certainly Chaotic, but why do you think it's Evil?

Anyway, there's already a thread on Eugene here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116025)

[Random832]

I think the more interesting question is when are we going to hear of this again?

My bet:Eugene's next visit to Roy. It will be monitored, and the fact that he was supposed to show Roy this but never does means he'll have some awkward questions to answer when he goes back up.

[Murdim]

Don't forget the very, very unlawful "being of pure Law and Good" trick, who probably already kicked him out of the Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral afterlifes (not necessarily LE since he deceived a Good-aligned court). And now that he committed an evil act of literally cosmic proportions, he would be very lucky if he goes to the True Neutral or the Chaotic Neutral afterlife after Xykon's demise. And certainly not Celestia, since he's neither Lawful nor Good anymore.

[Tingel]

I haven't read the main thread for #664, so maybe this was already discussed there, but I don't think Eugene is collaborating with anyone. He has the same wizard arrogance as Vaarsuvius and most likely agrees that the elf and his magic have the best chance to destroy Xykon (and thus give Eugene finally access to the afterlife he desires). He admires the elf's valiant (someone less kind would call it foolhardy) attempt to end the lich, and wants the elf on Roy's team. If Roy would find out the details about the elf's diabolical dealings, it would most likely interfere with the Order's mission to destroy Xykon, and so Eugene intervened and burned the papers. All he cares for is getting out of his cloudy limbo.

[Laughing Dragon]

Eugene has always been a self-absorbed jerk. How do you think Roy's little brother ended up dead? I think that he just killed any chance to actually make it into the LG afterlife, but the act, in-and-of-itself is not evil, merely unlawful (and not particularly in anyone's best interest).

[Ancalagon]

Eugene has always been a self-absorbed jerk. How do you think Roy's little brother ended up dead? I think that he just killed any chance to actually make it into the LG afterlife, but the act, in-and-of-itself is not evil, merely unlawful (and not particularly in anyone's best interest).

You mean like... the celestials will take that list-burning and not-telling personal? ;)

[Ancalagon]

Don't forget the very, very unlawful "being of pure Law and Good" trick

You mean they are going to take that personal?

Yeah... the funny thing is: If Eugene realised that, he just could march over to that other afterlife and get in line for that and could right now forget about the oath and the LG-stuff. ;)

[SPoD]

I think Eugene is perfectly willing to accept other people risking their immortal souls as long as it benefits him. If Roy was more like V, he would be treading closer to Evil, and Eugene is fine with that as long as Eugene gets into heaven. At the very least, that's tacit approval of Evil actions...ends justify the means, and all that.

[SPoD]

(and not particularly in anyone's best interest).

It's in Eugene's best interest if he believes that Roy (a good and decent man) may kick Vaarsuvius out of the group if he knew about V's evil actions. He's basically covering up for V so that Xykon gets smoked, even if doing so allows the IFCC to get control of the gates instead.

[Ancalagon]

...ends justify the means, and all that.

What is great about the new comic: It shows very clear the OotS-World does not work like that. And I'd be surprised if Eugene would not have to learn that lesson the hard way...

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, Eugene is a jerk, always will be a jerk, and always has been a jerk from the prequel stories. This latest act of jerkery does not surprise me, coming from that jerk as it does. The jerk.

[Noble Savant]

Don't you all think you're taking this a bit too seriously? An alignment shift? For lying? Lying is chaotic, I'll give you that. Certainly not enough to change anyone's alignment.

He did what he saw as good, and it's a perfectly viable view-point. He believes that what V did was a good step towards bringing down a force of major evil.

[Ancalagon]

Don't you all think you're taking this a bit too seriously? An alignment shift? For lying? Lying is chaotic, I'll give you that. Certainly not enough to change anyone's alignment.

He did what he saw as good, and it's a perfectly viable view-point. He believes that what V did was a good step towards bringing down a force of major evil.

Since we saw Eugene in the afterlife, we saw him doing one non-lawful act after another (starting with the trail and going on from there)... For many of those acts it can also be doubted if they are "good".
On the other hand, we have not seen him doing anything that was clearly "non-selfish" or "driven by the motivation to simply do good".

... I doubt all that'll stay without any consequence at all.

[Optimystik]

What is great about the new comic: It shows very clear the OotS-World does not work like that. And I'd be surprised if Eugene would not have to learn that lesson the hard way...

No, Celestia doesn't work like that. There are other nice places to end up besides the mountain, you know. Especially for Eugene, who if he went to the mountain would have to exile himself from his wife and child for eternity.

[SPoD]

Don't you all think you're taking this a bit too seriously? An alignment shift? For lying? Lying is chaotic, I'll give you that. Certainly not enough to change anyone's alignment.

He did what he saw as good, and it's a perfectly viable view-point. He believes that what V did was a good step towards bringing down a force of major evil.

Not only is it part of a pattern of behavior far more Chaotic than what the deva chastised Roy for, but I think some of us assume Eugene will continue to act increasingly worse as he gets more and more desperate (and thus may commit a truly evil act at some point).

[Ancalagon]

No, Celestia doesn't work like that. There are other nice places to end up besides the mountain, you know.

So you say that if Vaarsuvius was CG, he could talk to them his acts were still "good", his means and also a lot of the unnecessary cruelty were a "necessary evil" to create the "good" outcome, that his motives were purely good (even for a chaotic person) and therefore should be left in?

[Kish]

He did what he saw as good, and it's a perfectly viable view-point. He believes that what V did was a good step towards bringing down a force of major evil.

You're making an assumption about his motivations that runs contrary to everything in the comic. He believes that what Vaarsuvius did was right and correct because s/he used arcane magic to attempt to destroy Xykon. There is no indication that the concept "a force of major evil" means anything to him. All he's ever been shown to have cared about was that Xykon killed Master Fyron. Roy called him on viewing the entire world being endangered as background noise to, "...and therefore we want to destroy Xykon," remember?

[Optimystik]

So you say that if Vaarsuvius was CG, he could talk to them his acts were still "good", his means and also a lot of the unnecessary cruelty were a "necessary evil" to create the "good" outcome, that his motives were purely good (even for a chaotic person) and therefore should be left in?

V's situation is completely different - Eugene never did anything remotely close to casting Familicide or dealing with Fiends. All Eugene has done was deceive people, he's never committed any truly harmful or evil act.

[Ancalagon]

I never claimed that. But I still think that "actions and motivations" do have consequences, and therefore, Eugene will have to face the consequences of his "non good" and "non lawful" descisions.
Celestia won't let him in, due to that. In the same way as an evil afterlife will not let him in because he's not evil enough.

[TreesOfDeath]

I hope he gets kicked to the Neutral or Choatic Neutral afterlife for all his jerkassery.
Hes not evil, but hes a selfish jerk, and I wonder if Rich is setting up for this

[DeathQuaker]

I normally don't participate in threads like this, but why not?


V's situation is completely different - Eugene never did anything remotely close to casting Familicide or dealing with Fiends. All Eugene has done was deceive people, he's never committed any truly harmful or evil act.

1. Deception can be and often is harmful.

2. The Official Representatives of Pure Good (as manifested in the Deva) thought it was important for Roy to know about Vaarsuvius. The angel doesn't explain why (she didn't have time to) but I think it's fair to speculate that it would be a Good Thing for Roy to know about Vaarsuvius, and perhaps they thought there would be harm coming to Roy or the Order if he was not aware of the situation. (For example, if Vaarsuvius's debt is paid by turning him against the Order for 30 minutes, that would be a harmful thing.)

Eugene doesn't care that the Official Representatives of Pure Good think Roy should know about V. He is smart enough to know that they were probably trying to prevent harm coming to Roy. He willfully, fully aware of his actions, made sure that Roy would not receive the message from the Official Representatives of Pure Good. Which may well ensure that the harm the angel was trying to prevent will come to pass. It's a tacit, indirect harm-doing, but it's still quite potentially harmful. It may not be an Eat-your-babies kind of Evil act, but it's definitely not a Good act.

3) Furthermore, Eugene talks approvingly of V's choices as a method he approves of--when he just heard the Official Representative of Pure Good just SAY that it was Evil. He knows Heaven disapproves of what V did. He still thinks V was in the right.

A Good person does not approve of Evil acts, regardless of the reason.

No, Eugene is not Xykon-evil. He is not genocidal or sadistic in a major, violent sense. He is definitely not CHAOTIC EVIL with big capital letters dripping in blood. But he enjoys emotionally tormenting his family members. He has just sabotaged Heaven's efforts to tell Roy something important.

He's not a good man. And he's just committed an act I would definitely consider an Evil act. Definitely NOT on the same scale as V, as you say, but little harm as opposed to big harm is STILL harm. In Neverwinter Nights terms, he may have gained 1 point towards Evil rather than 10 points toward evil, but there's still a slip on the axis nonetheless.

I would not say Eugene is evil, but I've almost never seen him do any good where it wasn't self-serving in some way (he does help his son, but that's largely to help himself to be freed from limbo). He's at least Neutral, and the latest strip just showed the worst part of his nature.

[Optimystik]

1. Deception can be and often is harmful.

Certainly, but sometimes following the rules can be worse. See also: Shojo vs. the Guard, Roy vs. Nale, O-Chul in prison, etc.


2. The Official Representatives of Pure Good (as manifested in the Deva) thought it was important for Roy to know about Vaarsuvius. The angel doesn't explain why (she didn't have time to) but I think it's fair to speculate that it would be a Good Thing for Roy to know about Vaarsuvius, and perhaps they thought there would be harm coming to Roy or the Order if he was not aware of the situation. (For example, if Vaarsuvius's debt is paid by turning him against the Order for 30 minutes, that would be a harmful thing.)

Certainly it would be good for Roy to know about V, but it's just as good for him not to know. Now Eugene will take the blame for his son's association with potentially Evil forces, and Roy's record remains clear. Stopping Xykon without V's help would be extremely difficult for the Order. And her report doesn't seem to take into account the Good things V has done since the splice either (Teleporting the fleet to safety, saving O-Chul's life, and causing Xykon's phylactery to be lost.)


Eugene doesn't care that the Official Representatives of Pure Good think Roy should know about V. He is smart enough to know that they were probably trying to prevent harm coming to Roy. He willfully, fully aware of his actions, made sure that Roy would not receive the message from the Official Representatives of Pure Good. Which may well ensure that the harm the angel was trying to prevent will come to pass. It's a tacit, indirect harm-doing, but it's still quite potentially harmful. It may not be an Eat-your-babies kind of Evil act, but it's definitely not a Good act.

No argument here. Like I said, he's a manipulator and deceiver, and doesn't belong in Celestia.


3) Furthermore, Eugene talks approvingly of V's choices as a method he approves of--when he just heard the Official Representative of Pure Good just SAY that it was Evil. He knows Heaven disapproves of what V did. He still thinks V was in the right.

Giving Eugene the benefit of the doubt here, he was more likely referring to V's belief in the power of arcane magic as a problem-solver rather than the pact with the fiends. In other words his thought process might have been "I wouldn't advocate anyone to sell their soul in the first place, but if you already have you might as well put the power to some good use.


A Good person does not approve of Evil acts, regardless of the reason.

I agree here too, and I think Eugene is definitely slipping from Good and has left Law behind a long time ago.


No, Eugene is not Xykon-evil. He is not genocidal or sadistic in a major, violent sense. He is definitely not CHAOTIC EVIL with big capital letters dripping in blood. But he enjoys emotionally tormenting his family members. He has just sabotaged Heaven's efforts to tell Roy something important.

He's not a good man. And he's just committed an act I would definitely consider an Evil act. Definitely NOT on the same scale as V, as you say, but little harm as opposed to big harm is STILL harm. In Neverwinter Nights terms, he may have gained 1 point towards Evil rather than 10 points toward evil, but there's still a slip on the axis nonetheless.

I would not say Eugene is evil, but I've almost never seen him do any good where it wasn't self-serving in some way (he does help his son, but that's largely to help himself to be freed from limbo). He's at least Neutral, and the latest strip just showed the worst part of his nature.

And I agree here also, his chances of being CG or NG are quite slim (even slimmer than Shojo's.) LG is right out. I picture him going to Limbo or Outlands.

[silvadel]

I think he passed and then had this proviso keeping him out ala the last page in book 0.

Acts committed while in limbo are probably more likely to be judged as his soul going a little bit insane due to the position it has been put in rather than it being evil.

If there is one thing lawful good doesnt like doing -- it is admitting it was WRONG... So I would figure reversals are very exceedingly rare.

[Optimystik]

Acts committed while in limbo are probably more likely to be judged as his soul going a little bit insane due to the position it has been put in rather than it being evil.

I doubt it - by all evidence, your actions have the same weight no matter what plane (or demiplane, in this case) you happen to be on at the time.

In fact, one could argue that they'll be even harsher on him now, since he can't claim any ignorance of heaven's instructions due to being mortal.


If there is one thing lawful good doesnt like doing -- it is admitting it was WRONG... So I would figure reversals are very exceedingly rare.

The one who's reversed here seems to be Eugene. He was LG when he died, but since then has done some very questionable things.

[Ashiver]

I don't subscribe to this being a neutral act on the defense of selfish interest. There's a point where putting yourself in front of other things becomes evil. For example, stealing bread to feed yourself when hungry and without money strikes me as neutral. Stealing something only for immense personal gain strikes me as evil. Killing someone just to take their stuff for yourself again strikes me as evil. Here, Eugene is preventing V's party from being told about V's actions for the sake of his own personal gain, his possibly faster entry into heaven. Meanwhile, V's soul is on the line, he may be in need of talking with his friends to realize he has been misguided, this is why heaven wants Roy to know. In other words, Eugene just put his own self ahead of V's soul, by means of deception no less. That does not seem to me to be a little selfish neutral lie.

Not to mention the possible consequences of something happening to a gate because the party didn't know about the deal. You could go so far as to say that Eugene will be indirectly responsible for whatever happens if the Snarl gets loose or under the control of the Hells.

Beyond all that, he even clearly states he condones what V did. And what V did was evil, not neutral. That secretary didn't say what V did plunged him toward neutral, she said evil. He even says (albeit not in so many words) he wishes his own son was willing to make a deal with Hell to destroy Xykon, again, for Eugene's own personal gain.

I'm not saying I think Eugene is a purely malevolent evil guy or that he'll end up kicked out of all 3 heavens for all of this or necessarily deserve it. I think the whole of his actions in his existence still has to be taken into account. But I do think what he just did was definitely selfish to the point of evil.

[Shinizak]

I really hope he either gets some character development, or damns himself in the process.

[Draz74]

I really hated him until I read Start of Darkness. Now, he's just a complete mystery to me.

Without getting into specific spoilers, SoD taught me one very important fact about Eugene: Never believe anything he says. He's a prolific and possibly compulsive liar.

That includes some of the more jerk-wad things he says. They're lies. Which makes me wonder if there may be hope for him yet.

Or not. When he lies constantly, what it really means is that ... we hardly know anything about him for certain.

Mind you, strips like the latest one still make me roll my eyes and want to smack him upside the head. But I no longer hate him with the pure, unadulterated grudge I used to bear.

EDIT: Unless we see some major character-building revelations, though, I sure wouldn't mind if he didn't ever make it to Heaven.

[Bryan1108]

He does kind of get on one's nerves. Since the beginning of the series, I kept waiting for some gesture or sign that proved there were hidden depths to the character but, clearly, it isn't going to happen.

I think that it is a little late in the game for him to actually damn himself but I also think that when the lich is finally killed, Eugene is in for a surprise as he gets kicked over to another plane for his afterlife (probably LN or N but maybe NG, depending on events in his life that we haven't seen).

[Gamerlord]

I am pretty certain that nothing can save V, so all Eugen really did was get the angels angry, how can nothing save V from being discovered? Well the IFCC probably is readying themselves to teleport right over to V and demand their trade be completed, Roy probably will ask why, and the secret will be out.

What Eugen did was self-serving, not evil, AKA Chaotic Neutral.

[Holammer]

I really hope he either gets some character development, or damns himself in the process.

Maybe in a new book? I'm guessing he did some epic save-the-universe-and-all-reality sort of stuff in his life before he settled. Something that scored him a spot in the LG afterlife despite his "intricate web of lies".
In fact (SoD Spoiler). The Black Gem of Despair in SoD might be something he destroyed. :smallwink:

[Scarlet Knight]

No, Celestia doesn't work like that. There are other nice places to end up besides the mountain, you know. Especially for Eugene, who if he went to the mountain would have to exile himself from his wife and child for eternity.

That fits. It was said in another thread that the reason Eugene agreed so readily never to see Sarah again was that he already knew that he was not going to end up in Celestia, but probably get kicked to LN in his final review.

[Silfir]

I'm wondering if what the deva did was lawful to begin with. Are they supposed to just hand over reports for bystanders to deliver?

I suspect Eugene just felt no need to divide V from the rest of the Order by burdening them with the knowledge of the Familicide. It will be hard enough for him to explain the whole "I transformed Kubota to dust because he inconvenienced me" and "I entered a leasing contract over my soul with the devil, the demon and the daemon" thing. Saving O-Chul, causing the loss of the phylactery and apologizing for his actions will patch things up again, but he'll probably keep a secret what he did at his family's home.

Currently Vaarsuvius is at most only barely True Neutral anymore, with deeds of appalling evil on his record that get only slightly alleviated because his underlying motivation was guilt over not being able to help - guilt which a truly evil person would never feel.

Eugene has been dead for a long time and is probably quite a bit disillusioned about the Lawful Good thing. Being Lawful Good has done absolutely nothing for him after his death, after all, so why stay lawful or particularly good?

[hamishspence]

What is "truly evil"?

going by Champions of Ruin, even evil people can be remorseful about what they've done, but keep doing it anyway, because they feel the goal is worth the sacrifice.

Evil is generally a measure of what you have done and what you are willing to do- it doesn't have to be a measure of how you feel about your acts.

Savage Species- evil character can be loving spouse or parent, and still be evil- they don't necessarily behave in an evil fashion toward everyone.

[mikeejimbo]

Savage Species- evil character can be loving spouse or parent, and still be evil- they don't necessarily behave in an evil fashion toward everyone.

And we've definitely seen that in the comic. It was kind of the reason V had to familicide a dragon in the first place.

Well OK, not had to.

[hamishspence]

Was thinking more- just because V isn't being evil to his family and most of the Order- doesn't make him Neutral.

What with Familicide, killing kubota while knowing absolutely nothing about what wrongs he had done, blowing up a stableman for "no ticket- no horse" etc.

[skim172]

Eugene annoys me, not as a person, but because as a character, he's shallow. I mentioned this before, but among all the characters in OOTS, Eugene is the only one who never receives a sympathetic voice or at least reveals his point of view. We know more about the minds of Xykon and Redcloak and Kubota, for all their evil doings, and thus can at least understand their motivations, if not agree with them. But Eugene is never shown in this light. He is both criticized for pursuing petty revenge and for giving it up. He's a bad son for not following his father's footsteps, but a bad father for not letting Roy do the same. His actions are inconsistent and seem to undermine any sort of development. Not characteristic of the author's normal writing.

My personal belief is that Eugene is supposed to be hated. The character is supposed to be despised and disliked. Possibly because Roy is our hero and we see the story from his perspective and his father, in essence, is Roy's real enemy. But for whatever reason, I believe the author purposely wrote Eugene to be despised, even if it is done so inconsistently. The apparent negligent homicide of his younger son, for example - came out of nowhere and felt completely artificial. But it served to make the reader hate Eugene all the more, as if to wipe away any doubt that Eugene was a horrible man.

It's the one part that really annoys me out of a generally magnificent story. He's a character both inconsistent and unbelievable. I have my own speculation as to why he's written that way, but I'd say it's almost a forgone conclusion that the final plot will not end with Eugene happily in the lawful good afterlife - every element of the story dealing with Eugene is intended to show us just how bad a man he is. Most likely, they'll point out all the bad things he's done and when he claims it was all to stop Xykon, he'll be told, "No, it was just to get your revenge," etc., etc.

[SPoD]

Eugene annoys me, not as a person, but because as a character, he's shallow. I mentioned this before, but among all the characters in OOTS, Eugene is the only one who never receives a sympathetic voice or at least reveals his point of view. We know more about the minds of Xykon and Redcloak and Kubota, for all their evil doings, and thus can at least understand their motivations, if not agree with them. But Eugene is never shown in this light.

Untrue. Sarah defends him (or at least understands him). And we see him (in Start of Darkness) giving up on his oath to protect his family. It just so happens that the universe is punishing him for the one decent thing he ever did on-screen.


He is both criticized for pursuing petty revenge and for giving it up. He's a bad son for not following his father's footsteps, but a bad father for not letting Roy do the same. His actions are inconsistent and seem to undermine any sort of development.

I think a lot of the inconsistency is intentional; Live-Eugene and Dead-Eugene are practically different people. Live-Eugene tried to balance a bunch of different things, made some poor choices, but thought he had done a pretty good job in life. Dead-Eugene has been slapped in the face with the fact the universe has objectively said to him, "No, you stank it up." My personal view is that it is slowly driving him insane.


My personal belief is that Eugene is supposed to be hated. The character is supposed to be despised and disliked. Possibly because Roy is our hero and we see the story from his perspective and his father, in essence, is Roy's real enemy. But for whatever reason, I believe the author purposely wrote Eugene to be despised, even if it is done so inconsistently.

This, I totally agree with. We're supposed to hate him.

[Drizzt]

I just dont like the guy. Even in death he is self centered and coniving. I hope he eventually gets kicked out of LG heaven

[Optimystik]

I think a lot of the inconsistency is intentional; Live-Eugene and Dead-Eugene are practically different people. Live-Eugene tried to balance a bunch of different things, made some poor choices, but thought he had done a pretty good job in life. Dead-Eugene has been slapped in the face with the fact the universe has objectively said to him, "No, you stank it up." My personal view is that it is slowly driving him insane.

Actually, what the universe said to him was "you did fine except for this one thing." He did do a "pretty good job in life";He was on the verge of getting in when the Oath came up to bar his entrance.

Now, his desperation has led him to do some very questionable things in trying to remove that obstacle, and I think he's learning more about himself and working under more pressure than he ever did while alive. He's not going crazy - he's becoming the true Eugene Greenhilt, the one that should never have been aiming at Celestia to begin with.

[Murdim]

I think a lot of the inconsistency is intentional; Live-Eugene and Dead-Eugene are practically different people. Live-Eugene tried to balance a bunch of different things, made some poor choices, but thought he had done a pretty good job in life. Dead-Eugene has been slapped in the face with the fact the universe has objectively said to him, "No, you stank it up." My personal view is that it is slowly driving him insane.Same view here. The consistency holds to the fact that Eugene is subject to post-mortem character development, from a flawed but utimately good man to a selfish, jerkish wreck of a restless soul... character development in the wrong way, but still.

[Zencao]

Eugene annoys me, not as a person, but because as a character, he's shallow. I mentioned this before, but among all the characters in OOTS, Eugene is the only one who never receives a sympathetic voice or at least reveals his point of view. We know more about the minds of Xykon and Redcloak and Kubota, for all their evil doings, and thus can at least understand their motivations, if not agree with them. But Eugene is never shown in this light. He is both criticized for pursuing petty revenge and for giving it up. He's a bad son for not following his father's footsteps, but a bad father for not letting Roy do the same. His actions are inconsistent and seem to undermine any sort of development. Not characteristic of the author's normal writing.

My personal belief is that Eugene is supposed to be hated. The character is supposed to be despised and disliked. Possibly because Roy is our hero and we see the story from his perspective and his father, in essence, is Roy's real enemy. But for whatever reason, I believe the author purposely wrote Eugene to be despised, even if it is done so inconsistently. The apparent negligent homicide of his younger son, for example - came out of nowhere and felt completely artificial. But it served to make the reader hate Eugene all the more, as if to wipe away any doubt that Eugene was a horrible man.

It's the one part that really annoys me out of a generally magnificent story. He's a character both inconsistent and unbelievable. I have my own speculation as to why he's written that way, but I'd say it's almost a forgone conclusion that the final plot will not end with Eugene happily in the lawful good afterlife - every element of the story dealing with Eugene is intended to show us just how bad a man he is. Most likely, they'll point out all the bad things he's done and when he claims it was all to stop Xykon, he'll be told, "No, it was just to get your revenge," etc., etc.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a problem with his characterization. Despite my usual love of the giants writing, I find myself extremely disappointed by him as a character.

I don't like accusing any author of this, but does anyone else get the vibe that the Giant is letting personal feelings get in the way of it? The whole of strip 500 seemed... A little queer to me, especially compared to all the other strips in OOTS.

[goodyarn]

Eugene is the only one who never receives a sympathetic voice or at least reveals his point of view. We know more about the minds of Xykon and Redcloak and Kubota, for all their evil doings, and thus can at least understand their motivations, if not agree with them. But Eugene is never shown in this light. He is both criticized for pursuing petty revenge and for giving it up. He's a bad son for not following his father's footsteps, but a bad father for not letting Roy do the same. His actions are inconsistent and seem to undermine any sort of development. Not characteristic of the author's normal writing.

I disagree. From what I see, Eugene's motivations are consistent, and the judgment on him is consistent.

Eugene is extremely selfish. He swore an oath, and whether that oath was petty or not, he is being held to it by the powers that be. He is from a long line of fighters who take their surname from their ancestral sword, but he considered himself better than that and consequently looks down on both his father and son for being fighters. They do not look down on him for being a sorcerer. They look down on him for being a jerk to them and their mother. And then there's also the matter of whatever it was he did that accidentally killed his son, for which he has shown no remorse.

As the angel pointed out, rather than fulfill his oath himself, he chose to burden his son with it. Currently, his sole motivation is to fulfilll this quest -- not for its own sake, or from any desire to do good -- but merely so he personally can go to his final rest. And I think the more he acts from that motive to do things like the block V's chances at salvation, the less likely his afterlife is going to be what he thinks it is.

Eugene is a complete narcissist and the portrait of a toxic parent. Thank heaven Roy's shoulders are broad enough not to be crushed by him.

[Mr. Scaly]

What bothers me most about Eugene's actions here is the last panel when he says "if [Roy] was more like [V] then this series would be wrapped up already."

What does he mean by that? That Roy should have taken up magic? That Roy should be more aggressive? That he'd be perfectly happy if Roy sold his soul and got himself damned for eternity just so Eugene could finally get into heaven?

[Needle]

Obviously, Eugene said that line because V is a wizard and Roy not. Remember the flashback when Roy decided to be a Fighter? or how he mocked him about "sticking" bones? or that Julia would have been a better opponent for X because she had Feather Fall? xD

Well, the last one I fixed it a bit, of course, but Eugene has Wizardry in high regards while Fighters (or every other class, tough we only saw one line on Eugene talking to his party to rush things) are clearly crap to him.

"ME HAS MAGIC AND BRAINZ, YOU BRUTE FORCE THINGZ, SO, ME > YOU" wizard style of thinking :P (and I never played a Fighter to defend them, just... I look to certain players lol x_x )

[Keshay]

Question. If Eugene were to realize that he was no longer behaving in a Lawful fashion, and that his alignment had slipped to NG or TN, could he just go and apply for entrance into one of those afterlives? There's no reason why failing a blood oath would keep him out of those afterlives.

And why's he so focused on getting into Celestia anyhow? He obviously has no desire to see his family, and only a limited loyalty to the actual morality of the plane. At this point it seems most like stubborn pride is the only thing that keeps him wanting to get in.

[Ytaker]

Maybe someone else will kill Xykon permanently and Eugene is stranded out there on his cloud for good with an unfulfillable oath?

He implied that if V destroyed Xykon, then he'd have his oath fulfilled, in the recent strip.

[Ytaker]

I don't like accusing any author of this, but does anyone else get the vibe that the Giant is letting personal feelings get in the way of it? The whole of strip 500 seemed... A little queer to me, especially compared to all the other strips in OOTS.

I think it's a sign that while he likes complaining, he does actually want to help.

[Ellye]

This last strip (664) actually made me like Eugene quite a bit more...

[Chessrook44]

Why is he in the Lawful Good limbo anyway? Everything I've seen of him has shown him to be chaotic something, at best Neutral. There's no way he's lawful after everything he's done.

[Leta]

Eugene is actually a pretty good character! I think so, anyway.

[keybounce]

I really hope he either gets some character development, or damns himself in the process.

I hope he pretends to get some character development ...

[Droodle]

"if [Roy] was more like [V] then this series would be wrapped up already."I don't for a second believe that Eugene was saying "If Roy was a wizard like V, this series would be wrapped up already." After all, the contents of that report weren't "OMG! V is a wizard!" We, uh, already knew that. No, Eugene was referring to an aspect of V's conduct that he would have liked to see his son emulate. He wasn't suggesting that his son should lease out his soul, either. Eugene was likely referring to V's tendency to believe that the ends justify the means and to act accordingly.

[Fish]

I predict redemption for Eugene. He will make it into Celestia.
If he never makes it into Celestia, his oath to stay away from his family is dramatically meaningless.

If he makes it into Celestia despite being a self-serving liar, his oath is again meaningless.

The best dramatic outcome is for Eugene to somehow realize his faults and amend them, which puts him in the paradox of BEING Lawful enough to earn his reward but also being Lawful enough to abide by his oath.

[Optimystik]

I predict redemption for Eugene. He will make it into Celestia.
If he never makes it into Celestia, his oath to stay away from his family is dramatically meaningless.

If he makes it into Celestia despite being a self-serving liar, his oath is again meaningless.

The best dramatic outcome is for Eugene to somehow realize his faults and amend them, which puts him in the paradox of BEING Lawful enough to earn his reward but also being Lawful enough to abide by his oath.

In that situation, he would be deserving of a reward for such a karmic turnaround; but being barred access to his family when they share the same plane would be far more like punishment.

[Callista]

Roy's dad is acting neutral to me. Just plain neutral, his first dedication being to magic. He's done a few good things, a few bad things, a few lawful and chaotic things, but really nothing smashingly strong in any direction, especially since his helping Roy could be simply dedication to family... a TN thing. Maybe he was different earlier; but everything we've been seeing about him just screams true neutral. Well, okay, so with true neutral it's more of an absence of screaming, but y'know.

I guess he must have changed since he died, because if he's waiting around Celestia, he obviously must have been a lot more dedicated and altruistic during his lifetime. Maybe he figured those things expired along with his marriage when he kicked the bucket, or something.

[Random832]

Well, he's bitter. And justifiably so; why is the oath the one thing that has special rules for it, instead of just breaking it being a black mark on his record that either gets him kicked to a different (probably NG) afterlife or doesn't?

[Optimystik]

Well, he's bitter. And justifiably so; why is the oath the one thing that has special rules for it, instead of just breaking it being a black mark on his record that either gets him kicked to a different (probably NG) afterlife or doesn't?

Hey, nobody made him take it. (In fact, the tattoo-parlor guy warned him against it.)

[David Argall]

Too many people around here who seem to think "I don't like X. Therefore X is going to the bad place."

OK, let's look at this from the point of view of writing a story.

We have a character who is helping out the good guys, maybe not the way we prefer, but definitely helping. We have him striving for a noble reward. Now we have that reward denied him.
Isn't that rather a downer ending? We are talking comedy here, not tragedy. Aren't we really going to go with something where he does get in?

[With exceptions of course... Roy takes out Xykon and then we see Eugene happily reporting back to the Deva, who agrees, yes, Eugene passes...oh wait... It seems you made two blood oaths... And this other one still needs to be fulfilled... Well, I'm sorry, but you will have to wait for your descendants to take care of this one. But no problem. Your kids were very resourceful with the Xykon one, and I am sure your grandkids can manage this one... That limit of one to a generation will be a bother, but don't worry. You should be allowed in inside a century...

Wouldn't something upbeat be a better ending?

[Red XIV]

However, this SPECIFIC act went against a SPECIFIC request by a member of the LG Celestial Heirarchy
Are we sure that this particular angel was Lawful Good? I know the different colors of her hair and clothes from the Bureaucratic Deva aren't anything solid to go on, but the fact that this one was watching over V (who has never been Lawful Good) would imply to me that she's more likely from the Neutral Good afterlife. After all, it's a pretty safe bet that V was either NG or TN before the deal with the fiends.

[Kish]

The angel's interest in Vaarsuvius was as Roy's companion and subordinate. If she had said "Vaarsuvius" or even "your elf companion" sooner, Roy wouldn't have ridden away thinking she was talking about the soon-to-be-dead Belkar.

[goodyarn]

OK, let's look at this from the point of view of writing a story. We have a character who is helping out the good guys, maybe not the way we prefer, but definitely helping.

Is Eugene helping by keeping V's pact with Hell a secret from Roy? By that logic, might as well say the three demons from hell are "helping" and therefore "good."

[Scarlet Knight]

I think a lot of the inconsistency is intentional; Live-Eugene and Dead-Eugene are practically different people. Live-Eugene tried to balance a bunch of different things, made some poor choices, but thought he had done a pretty good job in life. Dead-Eugene has been slapped in the face with the fact the universe has objectively said to him, "No, you stank it up." My personal view is that it is slowly driving him insane.

I wonder if Eugene is supposed to be an example to us as to why ghosts end up as monsters. If his being dead is turning him more desperate & evil as time passes, he may end up as one of those ghosts we see in the modules, hating everything until the quest they never completed is done so they can be at rest.

[tsaylor]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

Eugene has been evaluated already, the book demands it. I seem to remember something about the evaluation only covering your actions during your life, but I couldn't find it anywhere. If that's the case, then it seems likely Eugene will end up in Celestia despite his actions on the cloud. In fact, his hijinx with the Azure City trial don't seem to have generated any punishment even though it clearly made the deva angry with him in # 487 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html).

[factotum]

Why is he in the Lawful Good limbo anyway? Everything I've seen of him has shown him to be chaotic something, at best Neutral. There's no way he's lawful after everything he's done.

Everything he's done (apart from a few frames of interaction with Roy in prequels) we haven't seen, so I have no problem believing he was Lawful Good in life. The stress of not being put into Heaven on death, and having to work through his least favourite child to fix that, have probably pushed him away from that alignment post-death; however, that won't come out until he's judged again once the Blood Oath is over and done with.

[Ancalagon]

Too many people around here who seem to think "I don't like X. Therefore X is going to the bad place."

Why? If Eugene has really become neutral, some neutral afterlife would not be a bad place for him. In fact, it probably would be much better (for him) than the LG afterlife.

[Fish]

In that situation, he would be deserving of a reward for such a karmic turnaround; but being barred access to his family when they share the same plane would be far more like punishment.
if he does make it in, it's obvious he's only going to squeak over the line. Maybe he doesn't deserve all the rewards Celestia has to offer. Also, if he's hanging around his family, isn't that like punishing them?

Thought: maybe his personal version of hell is being allowed in, but unable to partake of the joys...

[Optimystik]

if he does make it in, it's obvious he's only going to squeak over the line. Maybe he doesn't deserve all the rewards Celestia has to offer. Also, if he's hanging around his family, isn't that like punishing them?

Thought: maybe his personal version of hell is being allowed in, but unable to partake of the joys...

That's just it; Celestia isn't the only destination that offers rewards. Personally, I think he's be a lot better off in Outlands (they have a giant library there) or Elysium (he really isn't that bad a person.)