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Deth Muncher
2009-06-24, 06:03 PM
Hey all, it's that time once again. You guessed it! It's time for me to ask about a campaign setting in hopes to get enough information together to put together a functioning campaign, only to have it fail due to lack of time/interest! This time, it's about the Forgotten Realms, aka Faerun. Ever since that debacle with that one guy fighting Elminister (Eliminster? I've never known how to spell his name.), I've been thinking about how nifty it might be to put this together. My issue, however, is that I don't really know much about it. I mean, to the best of my knowledge, it's the exact opposite of Eberron, in that it's super-low tech, super-high fantasy. I've looked through a few of the books, but unfortunately, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of what's 3.0, what's 3.5, and what's been updated to 3.5, unlike the GitP Collective Consciousness. So, unlike Oriental Adventures and Eberron, which I at least had a little background with from which to ask you all about, I'm actually asking you guys: What's the deal here? What's it all about? How does one get into the mindset for DMing/playing in this kind of game? What're some common elements of FR games? What's hideously broken? What's severely underpowered? What's the syncability to other books? (As in, what has references to the FR, or similar things, like, say, any Vestiges that come from there?)

While I wait for your responses, I'm off to Wikipedia to research.

J.Gellert
2009-06-24, 06:33 PM
FR has some FR-specific rules like Spellfire, Circle Magic, but they are hardly required for playing the game.

I think this (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page)may be a good place to start. It will probably have 4E information in it, but it likely won't matter unless you really care for a pure experience (in which case nothing beats the books).

To me, FR is three things.
1. High-fantasy, and high-powered. Especially if you read some of the novels, it seems like you are nobody if you aren't near-epic.
Of course that may just be a problem with the novels because the FR CRPGs are much better in that aspect.

2. Fantasy counterpart everything. Most nations on the FR mirror old civilizations - and it's implied that some (Mulhorand, Unther) really are old earth's civilizations. So you have medieval France, Spain, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, Babylon, etc.

3. Many gods. Religion is a big part of the forgotten realms and while clearly not my favorite aspect of it, it's pretty colorful with a large number of churches and gods fighting over... everything. There's room for plots and politics if you like that.

Toliudar
2009-06-24, 06:57 PM
1. For me, part of the interesting part of FR was the extraordinary level range of active characters. A sense that low-level characters are rubbing shoulders with - and being manipulated by - higher level characters, who are in turn the pawns of secret cabals, who serve upstart gods, who are being pitted against each other by older gods. No "I am a fifth level wizard. I can flatten this town." in this world.

2. It's a freaking massive continent. Think of all of Eurasia, Africa and probably North America piled together. If you've come from the other side of the continent, you can be something of a wonder.

3. Because it's been around so long, there's so many books, adventures, video games, etc that help to ground and inspire bits of this world - It's so easy to steal. Er. Take inspiration. But also places that are less developed, if you want to head where players have no preconceptions.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-24, 07:03 PM
To me, FR is just what it says on the tin: it's a world full of crumbled empires and history. Mystery and investigation, loss and fading, high adventure in the midst of great things long forgotten - but not gone, at least entirely.

At higher levels, it takes on a very superhero feel for me, with the heroes flitting about the world clashing against threats like you'd expect to find the Justice League or the Avengers fighting, world-hopping and even time-traveling, facing off against gods if they get far enough...

The big threats are ancient, the mysteries stretch back millenia or more, and the

I can never over-recommend Lost Empires of Faerūn, the single fluffiest 3.5 FR book, which gives you some great grounding in some of the biggest forgotten realms in Faerūn.

The setting is so old that it's accumulated way too much background information and events and history and locations to ever even begin to summarize.

The basic areas of interest (to me, anyway) are the Sword Coast and the Savage North, where savage wilderness is dotted by great cities that gleam like gems - Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Silverymoon... Cormyr, the quintessential Lawful Good realm of knights and war-wizards and warrior-kings (adventuring license required!)... the Dalelands, a forested realm of hardy humans, elves, and the ancient, demon-haunted elven ruins of Myth Drannor... and the Moonsea, a small inland sea ringed by fortified trade cities, most ruled by evil cabals or overlords, including the legendary bastion of Zhentil Keep and its adjacent strongholds, home of the dark-coated Zhentarim armies of merchants, mages, and warriors, and the quarreling clerics of Bane and Cyric.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-24, 07:04 PM
FR allows you to be steampunk without calling yourself steampunk.

They have guns available to buy only though in certain locations.

They are oriental without being Oriental: they have asian lands and all.

Bad part: you need a god to revived.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-24, 07:31 PM
FR allows you to be steampunk without calling yourself steampunk. This intrigues me.


They have guns available to buy only though in certain locations.
This will intrigue one of my players.


They are oriental without being Oriental: they have asian lands and all. Handy, as I have the OA book and update, if need be.


Bad part: you need a god to revived.
This saddens me.

Can I ask you to go into a bit more detail on points 1 and 4?

Keld Denar
2009-06-24, 07:50 PM
Always tip your waitress. There is a good chance she nabbed Epic Spellcasting on her last level up, and you'd rather not be her first source of xp toward the next one.

Really, I think the polytheism of FR is one of the better parts. They have a god for just about everything you can think of, and most of them don't get along. This leads to theocratical factionism, along with a healthy dose of secularism, and who doesn't like a little deicide everyone now and again, you know...to keep things interesting!

herrhauptmann
2009-06-24, 08:07 PM
Anything can die in Faerun except Elminster and Drizz't. And even then, pay token worship to a god, and you'll go to his home when you die, which means your friends can have you rezed.

Without that, you'll get stuck with the lord of the dead, and be stuck in the Wall of the Faithless (wall made of billions of atheists from time immemorial) or one of the other few dozen tortures he has designed for you. Think Sisyphus from Greek myths.
People who suffer, atheists, those without patron gods, and those seek to undermine their own faith.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-24, 08:20 PM
You know, all of this has reminded me of a thread about bartenders in D&D. Specifically, the fact that if a bartender is in Faerun, he's usually a lv20 Fighter/lv20 Wizard who keeps barfights from happening in his bar by UNMERCIFULLY SLAUGHTERING anyone who dares initiate one.


So. So far I like what I'm hearing on the fluff of FR. What I really need, though, are what books to use? FR-wise, I have at my disposal: Faiths + Pantheons, Campaign Setting, Lords of Darkness, Magic of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun (+ Web Update), Silver Marches, Races of Faerun, Unapproachable East, City of Splendors;Waterdeep, Lost Empires, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms (Sarrukhs, anyone?!), Shining South and Underdark. Which of these is 3.5 and which is 3.0 is beyond me.

And also, which of those have things that were updated in later books? I know the DMG has the Red Wizard PrC, and I believe another 3.5 book has those bodyguard guys for the Red Wizards, but I don't know.

Basically, I'm asking you this so I know what to read and what not to waste my time with.

Malanthyus
2009-06-24, 08:24 PM
I'm in something of the same boat. Planning a longer term epic campaign where Karsus comes back to take revenge on Shar for the death Mystral/Mystra/Midnight. At the point I"m mainly trying to figure out where on the continent to actually start the adventure. o.0

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-24, 08:37 PM
I'm far from an FR expert and just going by what I've heard here, but...

By decree of the local overdeity, the gods need worship (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly). He enacted this rule because he felt that the gods were neglecting their followers.

The gods responded by banding together and conspiring to screw over any mortal who doesn't worship a god. The Lawful Good god of the afterlife wanted to deal with the non-religious justly instead of vindictively, but the other deities got him to agree to punish them in order to preserve the balance or some ****.

So, basically, the gods of the Realms are bastards, even the supposedly Good-aligned ones. (The relatively nice god of the afterlife is now supposedly Lawful Neutral for acceding to their demands, though. :smallconfused:)

Someone with better setting knowledge correct whatever parts I got wrong.

Mando Knight
2009-06-24, 08:48 PM
So, basically, the gods of the Realms are bastards, even the supposedly Good-aligned ones. (The relatively nice god of the afterlife is now supposedly Lawful Neutral for acceding to their demands, though. :smallconfused:)

Yeah... in the midst of the chaos that leads to the 4E version of FR, the (LG) god of justice (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) kills an LN god (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Helm) who was serving as messenger boy for the justice god and a (CG) goddess of fortune (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora)'s courtship, since he thought the LN god was flirting with her as well, then is killed while fighting demons trying to invade the seven-fold mountains of Celestia (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Celestia)...

...and then Bahamut the Platinum Dragon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bahamut) swooped in from his lesser-god status to gobble up the Justice portfolio and gained a couple thousand worshippers from the whole debacle...

aivanther
2009-06-24, 08:53 PM
Here you go for book list.

3.0
Monsters of Faerun
Campaign Setting
Faiths and Pantheons
Lords of Darkness
Magicof Faerun
Silver Marches

3.5
Champions of Ruin
Champions of Valor
Dragons of Faerun
Lost Empires of Faerun
Player's Guide to Faerun
Power of Faerun
Serpent Kingdoms
Shining South
Unapproachable East
Underdark
Waterdeep
Monsters Of Faerun 3.5 Update

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-24, 08:54 PM
Steampunk: It's pretty limited; basically, Lantanese gnomes worshipping Gond know how to do clockworks and steam engines, and that includes wheellock smoothbore firearms (single-shot pistols and muskets and cannons; the Thayvian wizards also have cannons). There's flying (magically) ships...

Revival through deity: Basically, you can only be raised or resurrected if you worshipped a deity and went to their afterlife. (FR uses a nonstandard cosmology similar but different to the standard Great Wheel.) If you were Faithless, your soul is left as prey for demons. I think there's some possibility of conversion after death, but just being afraid of the Lower Planes isn't enough to swing it.

Mando Knight
2009-06-24, 09:02 PM
Revival through deity: Basically, you can only be raised or resurrected if you worshipped a deity and went to their afterlife. (FR uses a nonstandard cosmology similar but different to the standard Great Wheel.) If you were Faithless, your soul is left as prey for demons. I think there's some possibility of conversion after death, but just being afraid of the Lower Planes isn't enough to swing it.

In 3.5, if you're one of the Faithless (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Faithless), Kelemvor (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kelemvor) takes your soul and makes it another brick in the Wall of the Faithless. There, your soul is withered away into nothing. :smalleek:

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-24, 09:15 PM
In 3.5, if you're one of the Faithless (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Faithless), Kelemvor (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kelemvor) takes your soul and makes it another brick in the Wall of the Faithless. There, your soul is withered away into nothing. :smalleek:

What I referred to is that IIRC the demons and devils prey on the Wall, picking souls off it at opportunity and turning them into larvae into the standard process. Pretty sure that's how they get souls (other than specific deals for them).

herrhauptmann
2009-06-24, 09:50 PM
What I referred to is that IIRC the demons and devils prey on the Wall, picking souls off it at opportunity and turning them into larvae into the standard process. Pretty sure that's how they get souls (other than specific deals for them).

Was pretty sure that demons stole souls, from all deities, while the dead gathered on the Fugue plane waiting for a servant of their deity to summon them.
Devils did it by signing contracts with the souls, usually those who were willing to be born as a small devil, instead of going to receive the punishments of whichever god their soul was headed towards.

Saph
2009-06-24, 09:54 PM
Probably my favourite aspect of 3.5 Forgotten Realms is just howbig it is. You could literally play a new campaign in it every year and die of old age before you exhausted all the locations.

It makes it a great setting for experienced players because it's so easy to surprise them. Just pick a random country and odds are the players won't have been there IC before. Or flip through the campaign setting and pick one you like the look of. I like starting my FR campaigns in Tethyr - each time I've done it I've had some FR veterans in the group, but the surrounding area is new to them.

Other things . . . your patron deity isn't just a matter of fluff, as it is in some settings. Divine politics is a major part of the world, and each deity has a long list of friends and a (probably longer) list of enemies. Once you get to higher level, you'll start getting noticed based on this.

There are lots of high-level existing characters. What this means in practise is that there's always someone more powerful than you, and normally not too far away. You can go through an entire campaign without ever interacting with the high-level NPCs, but they change the balance of power. Your 13th-level character can't set himself up as a demigod; if he wants to set himself up a kingdom, he has to deal with the players who've established themselves in the area already.

On the other hand, this gives you a kind of freedom as a player. In some settings, being level 10+ makes you the Big Damn Heroes by default, and you can't walk an 8-hour adventuring day without someone trying to assassinate you or recruit you on a mission to save the world. In FR a 10th-level party, while significant, are not the be-all and end-all. If they want to go off and do their own thing, no-one will bother them much.

- Saph

arguskos
2009-06-24, 09:57 PM
What I referred to is that IIRC the demons and devils prey on the Wall, picking souls off it at opportunity and turning them into larvae into the standard process. Pretty sure that's how they get souls (other than specific deals for them).
Demons rip into the Wall of the Faithless, cause they're awesome like that. :smallcool:

Devils, by divine contract with Jergal and Kelemvor, are permitted to speak to the souls before they are judged and offer them a contract. They cannot lie to the souls, but they are permitted to trick them into signing it, provided they know what the contract says.

AslanCross
2009-06-24, 10:05 PM
Anything can die in Faerun except Elminster and Drizz't. And even then, pay token worship to a god, and you'll go to his home when you die, which means your friends can have you rezed.

Without that, you'll get stuck with the lord of the dead, and be stuck in the Wall of the Faithless (wall made of billions of atheists from time immemorial) or one of the other few dozen tortures he has designed for you. Think Sisyphus from Greek myths.
People who suffer, atheists, those without patron gods, and those seek to undermine their own faith.

Actually, I thought paying lip service to gods made one fall under the one of two groups that end up in the Wall: Instead of being one of the Faithless, you're one of the False.

Being stuck in the wall is bad enough, but demons and devils periodically raid it for souls to torture as well.

Anyway, FR is pretty much a generic, "anything goes" setting. Its strength is that you can have almost any kind of adventure in it. Even just by reading the Drizzt novels you can see him having to go through epic wars, swashbuckling pirate adventures, and dungeon delves.

FR has its own cosmology, which is sort of a great tree from which all the planes spring. Also, all of the fiendish planes are connected by the Blood Rift/River Styx, which flows through all of them.

For the record: DRIZZT IS NOT SPELLED WITH ANY APOSTROPHES. GRAZ'ZT, HOWEVER, IS.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-24, 10:35 PM
Lip service was probably a poor choice of words...
I meant someone who believes, but only ever goes to church on Christmas and easter (for a real world comparison).

Someone who loses faith (canhappen to anyone in real world) and goes crying 'God doesn't care about us!' in Faerun counts as false.

I accept the correction on spelling like a man. I usually get that one right...

Deth Muncher
2009-06-25, 12:07 AM
Here you go for book list.

3.0
Monsters of Faerun
Campaign Setting
Faiths and Pantheons
Lords of Darkness
Magic of Faerun
Silver Marches

3.5
Champions of Ruin
Champions of Valor
Dragons of Faerun
Lost Empires of Faerun
Player's Guide to Faerun
Power of Faerun
Serpent Kingdoms
Shining South
Unapproachable East
Underdark
Waterdeep
Monsters Of Faerun 3.5 Update

Okay. So, what's in the books I highlighted?

Wait, no, let me rephrase that.

What would be lost from the gaming experience since I lack those? Anything good that might be on the Wizard's site for free?

EDIT (to avoid double-posting):
Steampunk: It's pretty limited; basically, Lantanese gnomes worshipping Gond know how to do clockworks and steam engines, and that includes wheellock smoothbore firearms (single-shot pistols and muskets and cannons; the Thayvian wizards also have cannons). There's flying (magically) ships...

Revival through deity: Basically, you can only be raised or resurrected if you worshipped a deity and went to their afterlife. (FR uses a nonstandard cosmology similar but different to the standard Great Wheel.) If you were Faithless, your soul is left as prey for demons. I think there's some possibility of conversion after death, but just being afraid of the Lower Planes isn't enough to swing it.

1. So, they're like WoWGnomes, then?
4. Whoa. That's intense. Especially going off of what everyone else said. It pretty much seems like...well, you DON'T want to die. Even less than normal.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-06-25, 12:18 AM
Yeah... in the midst of the chaos that leads to the 4E version of FR, the (LG) god of justice (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) kills an LN god (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Helm) who was serving as messenger boy for the justice god and a (CG) goddess of fortune (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora)'s courtship, since he thought the LN god was flirting with her as well, then is killed while fighting demons trying to invade the seven-fold mountains of Celestia (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Celestia)...

...and then Bahamut the Platinum Dragon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bahamut) swooped in from his lesser-god status to gobble up the Justice portfolio and gained a couple thousand worshippers from the whole debacle...

Oh and that is not even going into what happened to the Drow. :smallfrown:

Altima
2009-06-25, 12:31 AM
Most FR enthusiasts pretty much ignore the events leading up to 4e. While many of them are cool, most of them pave the way for completely screwing over the setting (the death of most of the drow pantheon which then split the drow race into something stupid(er), Szass Tam saying screw it to centuries of intrigue and just blatantly starting a war in Thay, Ao getting a severe case of drain bamage, etc).

As for the resurrection thing, well, it doesn't happen immediately. It takes time (2d4 days, I think) for a soul to be taken care of. When a person dies, they're taken to the Fugue Plaine, where they await their deity to swoop in and drag them off to eternal paradise* (paradise, in this case, referring to how best you served the gods--remember, many of these semi-omnipotent beings are quite vindictive). If you're not taken up by the gods, you eventually find yourself in the City of the Dead, the demense of Kelemvor, God of the Dead (not to be confused with Cyric, God of Death). At this point, the best you can be hoped for is for you to be claimed False--worshipping a god who doesn't want you, worshipping the wrong belief system, etc. If you're judged False, you simply inhabit the City of the Dead forever. If you're Faithless, you end up being thrown into the Wall of the Faithless, where you suffer for untold eons until your soul literally dissolves into the mortar of the Wall. Unless you're lucky enough to be plucked from the Wall by the Dove.

It's a very lovely setting, with a lot of background and information in regards to it. It actually feels like a real world, simply because it has so much mish-mashed information. It's not a clean-cut campaign setting like the newer ones.

Unfortunately, the 4e lore has made FR a completely different setting. If one didn't know the names and maps of the places, they would have no idea about it. With such a mighty loss, the FR becomes less special. You might as well be adventuring on Planet XR842.

PS-Shar didn't kill Mystra. That would be Cyric. In fact, Shar helping Cyric may be meta-knowledge (we know it, but no one else--including the gods--don't). As for Karsus, considering his extremely brief tenue as a deity resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, the fall of the most powerful empire, and untold destruction, him being pissy over Mystra III's death is a tad hypocritical.

EDIT:

Yeah... in the midst of the chaos that leads to the 4E version of FR, the (LG) god of justice (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) kills an LN god (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Helm) who was serving as messenger boy for the justice god and a (CG) goddess of fortune (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora)'s courtship, since he thought the LN god was flirting with her as well, then is killed while fighting demons trying to invade the seven-fold mountains of Celestia (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Celestia)...

...and then Bahamut the Platinum Dragon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bahamut) swooped in from his lesser-god status to gobble up the Justice portfolio and gained a couple thousand worshippers from the whole debacle...

Don't forget that a lesser deity tripped, fell into the Nine Hells, was eaten by Asmodeus, who then became a GREATER deity, and decided, on a whim, to mash the elemental planes together.

Of the, what, 30-60ish deities in FR 3.5, about ten or so survived. Maybe 15. And at least two of those are new deities (Zehir, Asmodeus). On top of that, several of the 'missing' deities aren't even given a (crappy) explanation of their absence. They're simply there in one edition and not in the next.

chiasaur11
2009-06-25, 01:57 AM
But did Kurtulmak, Gaknulak, and Dakarnok survive?

Better yet, did Garl Glittergold die in screaming torment?

Malanthyus
2009-06-25, 02:05 AM
PS-Shar didn't kill Mystra. That would be Cyric. In fact, Shar helping Cyric may be meta-knowledge (we know it, but no one else--including the gods--don't). As for Karsus, considering his extremely brief tenue as a deity resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of people, the fall of the most powerful empire, and untold destruction, him being pissy over Mystra III's death is a tad hypocritical.

EDIT:


Don't forget that a lesser deity tripped, fell into the Nine Hells, was eaten by Asmodeus, who then became a GREATER deity, and decided, on a whim, to mash the elemental planes together.

Of the, what, 30-60ish deities in FR 3.5, about ten or so survived. Maybe 15. And at least two of those are new deities (Zehir, Asmodeus). On top of that, several of the 'missing' deities aren't even given a (crappy) explanation of their absence. They're simply there in one edition and not in the next.

For the campaign I'm working on, it's going to be 3.5, set slightly after the spellplague, when Mystra's death is still fresh. As for Karsus, it gets a bit complicated, but the blow off is that Karsus was actually manipulated into Killing Mystril so that Shar could take back the shadowweave, Mystra was tricked into being killed by Helm, and finally of course Cyric was goaded/led/helped into killing Mystra for the final time.

Colmarr
2009-06-25, 02:35 AM
Don't forget that a lesser deity tripped, fell into the Nine Hells, was eaten by Asmodeus, who then became a GREATER deity, and decided, on a whim, to mash the elemental planes together.

I'm curious.

Which lesser deity tripped and fell into the Nine Hells to be eaten by Asmodeus? And where do you get the notion that it was Asmodeus' decision to "mash the elemental planes together"?

Myrmex
2009-06-25, 03:24 AM
(Eliminster? I've never known how to spell his name.)

i haz a solushun (http://www.googleguide.com/)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-25, 08:30 AM
Which lesser deity tripped and fell into the Nine Hells to be eaten by Asmodeus?

I believe it was Azuth, Mystra's right-hand god. While Shar and Cyric were doing completely implausible things with Mystra, Azuth was there as well; to stop him from interfering, they did the interplanar magical equivalent of kicking Azuth down a flight of stairs and he landed in the Hells, vulnerable to Asmodeus as some sort of kickback/bribe from Shar (even though Asmodeus has never needed or wanted divinity because he's better than that).

Yora
2009-06-25, 08:41 AM
Somehow the only part of the FR, that really got me ever hooked, is the North. I don't care at all for the Heartlands, the Old Empires, the Sea of Fallen Stars, or all the lands of the South.
I guess the North is also one of the most well developed parts of the FR, but it's all so detailed that this "small" part can stand as a full campaign setting on its own. It probably doesn't hurt that you have lots of really good pc-games, that give you extremely stunning visual and musical representations of this area.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-25, 08:46 AM
Well, WoW gnomes are basically a giant rip-off of D&D/FR gnomes (like everything in WoW), so yeah, I guess there's a similarity. The WoW orcs, elves, and dwarves are all stolen from D&D too, and FR and Greyhawk are the ones with the most classic representations...


Okay. So, what's in the books I highlighted?

Power of Faerūn is for epic and high-power play (not necessarily epic- or high-level, but for characters who want to rule and do politically or financially great things). It's one of the best and fluffiest FR books after LEoF, but only useful if you want to do that sort of campaigns.

Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin detail good (Exalted, even) and evil (vile, even) characters, organizations, classes, and so on. Lots of useful mechanics in both, and useful villains and organizations. Very good books, mechanics-wise; somewhat good for ideas.

Dragons of Faerūn deals with dragons! Again, useful if you want to focus on those. Be warned that it is one of the worst-edited books, and the dragons stats are basically all full of mistakes, so you wouldn't be able to use them clean out of the box. Not one of the best books, IMO; Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, and Races of the Dragon are much more useful, although it can supplement them somewhat.

Out of those four, I recommend getting them in this order: CoV, CoR, PoF, and finally DoF if you really have to.

jamroar
2009-06-25, 08:50 AM
I'm curious.

Which lesser deity tripped and fell into the Nine Hells to be eaten by Asmodeus? And where do you get the notion that it was Asmodeus' decision to "mash the elemental planes together"?

I believe it was his plan to end the Blood War or something, by pushing the Abyss down to the bottom of the Elemental Planes.

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-25, 09:10 AM
Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin detail good (Exalted, even) and evil (vile, even) characters, organizations, classes, and so on. Lots of useful mechanics in both, and useful villains and organizations. Very good books, mechanics-wise; somewhat good for ideas.

Dragons of Faerūn deals with dragons! Again, useful if you want to focus on those. Be warned that it is one of the worst-edited books, and the dragons stats are basically all full of mistakes, so you wouldn't be able to use them clean out of the box. Not one of the best books, IMO; Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, and Races of the Dragon are much more useful, although it can supplement them somewhat.


My experience is the same about the books. CoR has decent villains too. I love Dendar...

Zeta Kai
2009-06-25, 11:40 AM
Yeah, I just finished reading the 3.0 campaign setting book cover-to-cover. It's a HUGE setting, with something, somewhere, for everyone. It has hundreds of towns, villages, & cities. It has dozens of personalities, scores of dungeons, & 8 full pantheons of gods. And a poster-sized map of the continent. I'm very impressed; it's bigger than Eberron, debatably more fleshed out than Greyhawk or Blackmoor, & more diverse than Ravenloft or Black Sun. It's one of the best settings that I've ever read...

...Which is another reason to wail & rage against 4E, for its raping & razing of such a beautiful setting. WotC took a world that they've been fleshing out for 20 years & changed so much that it's barely recognizable. To wit:

Your patron god? Dead or missing.
Your favority personality? Dead or missing.
Your favorite city or nation? Good odds on being destroyed or severely altered.
Your dungeon of choice? Good luck.

I keep trying to give 4E a chance (I must be a masochist), & it keeps alienating me, disappointing me, insulting me, or some vile combination thereof.

Having just read the 3E book, I checked out the 4E book, & was immediately repulsed by the utter undoing of a place I'd grown to respect & love. I've said it before, & I say it again here: I feel like I've just read a great tourism journal of Hiroshima, published on August 5th, 1945.

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 12:16 PM
Another fun area to play in is the Rashemi/Thay boarder, with the fiercely proud and unrelenting Rashemi nomads being slowly churned under the heavy bootheel of Thay. Its simultaneously savage and primal, yet refined and full of intrigue.

Because sometimes its fun to not let the Man get you down.

Yora
2009-06-25, 12:45 PM
...Which is another reason to wail & rage against 4E, for its raping & razing of such a beautiful setting. WotC took a world that they've been fleshing out for 20 years & changed so much that it's barely recognizable.
What? Just had a look into my AD&D campaign setting. It's all as I remember it. ^^

Talya
2009-06-25, 12:52 PM
Probably my favourite aspect of 3.5 Forgotten Realms is just howbig it is. You could literally play a new campaign in it every year and die of old age before you exhausted all the locations.

It makes it a great setting for experienced players because it's so easy to surprise them. Just pick a random country and odds are the players won't have been there IC before. Or flip through the campaign setting and pick one you like the look of. I like starting my FR campaigns in Tethyr - each time I've done it I've had some FR veterans in the group, but the surrounding area is new to them.


I agree. I love the Realms, at least prior to the apostasy that were the events leading up to 4th edition. (Tip--they did not happen.)

It should be noted, though, that the world of Toril is even bigger than the Forgotten Realms, if you're willing to look up old 2nd edition source material. One of the first things you notice while looking at a map of Faerun is that there is no eastern coastline...the world continues beyond the map. Do enough research and you find out that across the wastes you get to Kara-Tur, the Toril equivalent of the Far East. Maztica and Zakhara are also there for the finding, and there are continents canonically on the map that are entirely unnamed and undescribed, if you seek a blank slate frontier for your characters while still having the depth of history that the Realms provides.

GreyMantle
2009-06-25, 03:16 PM
FR is really a your mileage may vary type thing.

I personally dislike the fact that you have to be like 17th level to matter, given that there's seemingly a 15th level wizard living in in every hamlet.

The fact that there are so many high-level characters running around means (as I see it) that any attempt to mess with the published political situations (like, say, trying to conquer some nation with another) should be stopped if the big NPC wizard doesn't want it.

The total amount of Elminster and Drizzt wankery prevalent tends to be annoying as well.

If you play characters to the their full power, FR should not exist as it does.

FR is really overwritten. While this usually doesn't come into play, it's still possible to get players who read some random book that says that Jesusland is by Waterdeep, not Sembia, or that city A doesn't exist. You can tell them that they're wrong, but it's easy for resentment to build.

I really dislike the way FR does religion, with 5000 gods that are total asshats but that you must worship to win. I find something like Eberron or my home setting, with fewer gods that have a more general portfolio, makes better stories, as they allow for misinterpretation of "divine" will that can launch evil crusades and stuff.

Games in it can still be fun, especially if you do an almost blanket reducing of NPC levels by 5 or even 10.

FR still does a splendid job of channeling a "like-tolkien-but-not-quite" sort of "grand old fantasy that spells gray with an e" feeling that lets a lot of people identify with it; you just need to frequently ignore the rules.

The Unapproachable East (barring the zulkirs) tends to suffer from less overwritten-ness in general, which makes it a pretty decent setting.

Personally, I find Eberron to be much more fitting to 3.5's rules. Eberron also has more room for DM interpretation and customization, which I appreciate.

Morty
2009-06-25, 03:21 PM
I personally dislike the fact that you have to be like 17th level to matter, given that there's seemingly a 15th level wizard living in in every hamlet.

No, there isn't? I'm honestly lost as to where people pull this "There's a 10+ level character in every village" or "Bartenders are epic-level wizards" crap from. 15th level wizards are either powerful adventurers, rulers, or close to rulers.


The fact that there are so many high-level characters running around means (as I see it) that any attempt to mess with the published political situations (like, say, trying to conquer some nation with another) should be stopped if the big NPC wizard doesn't want it.

And why is messing with estabilished political situation supposed to be easy, again? Some of us like the fact that PCs don't get everything handed to them on a silver platter.


Personally, I find Eberron to be much more fitting to 3.5's rules. Eberron also has more room for DM interpretation and customization, which I appreciate.

Not everyone likes airships, magic trains, magic robots and other ridiculous quirks.
Now, as much as I like FR, it could definetly use some trimming where NPC levels are concerned so that 20th level Fighters don't come out of the blue.

aivanther
2009-06-25, 03:28 PM
Okay. So, what's in the books I highlighted?

Wait, no, let me rephrase that.

What would be lost from the gaming experience since I lack those? Anything good that might be on the Wizard's site for free?


Very little, IMO.

Champions of Ruin = Evil guide for Faerun
Champions of Valor = Good guide to Faerun
In other words, think of these as a FR specific Book of Vile and Exalted deeds.

Dragons of Faerun is pretty much just a typical dragon book, in line with Draconomicon and Dragon magic. It does have some stuff about the Cult of the Dragon in it, which is always a fun organization to pit against your NPCs, but not a huge difference from other sources on it.

Power of Faerun is sort of a guide book to having your PCs run or lead an organization. This would be the sort of thing you need if they take over Luskan, or usurp the Zhentrim. That sort of thing.

chiasaur11
2009-06-25, 03:45 PM
...Which is another reason to wail & rage against 4E, for its raping & razing of such a beautiful setting. WotC took a world that they've been fleshing out for 20 years & changed so much that it's barely recognizable. To wit:

Your patron god? Dead or missing.
Your favority personality? Dead or missing.
Your favorite city or nation? Good odds on being destroyed or severely altered.
Your dungeon of choice? Good luck.


Garl ____ing Glittergold?

Still ____ing alive.

Thane of Fife
2009-06-25, 03:53 PM
Two words of advice:

1. It can be very worth it to check out the Candlekeep Forums/URL], which are entirely devoted to Forgotten Realms - there are even threads like "Ask Ed Greenwood" or "Ask Elaine Cunningham".

2. Wizards has lots of [URL="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads"]free books (http://forum.candlekeep.com/default.asp) from older editions on its website, including a number of Forgotten Realms things. They're pretty much entirely setting info, so they are definitely worth checking out.

Gerion
2009-06-25, 04:41 PM
What I really need, though, are what books to use? FR-wise, I have at my disposal: Faiths + Pantheons, Campaign Setting, Lords of Darkness, Magic of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun (+ Web Update), Silver Marches, Races of Faerun, Unapproachable East, City of Splendors;Waterdeep, Lost Empires, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms (Sarrukhs, anyone?!), Shining South and Underdark
Basically, I'm asking you this so I know what to read and what not to waste my time with.

Well the campaign setting is your first stop. Read the region fluff and pick one you like. I recommend the sword coast, the North or Raven's bluff.
The book for the swoard coast is city of splendors (well to one of the city's but thats enough to start).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
has the source books the north (for the north suprise) or the city of ravens bluff


get familiar with one of the places and add more regions and story later, it is just to much to get all at once.


For mechanics look for the players guide,
i would start with the city of Ravens Bluff, the free source book is good, and if you want to change locations, in the sewers are lots of magic portals and its a portcity.

Imho the pantheon is awesome so Faiths and pantheons is your friend.
Lost empires of Faerun has lot of awesome fluff, and is the best book for a ruins filled campaign.

So the sum up:
If you want mechanics (regional feats) -> Players guide
for fluff and setting -> 1. campaign setting 2. Faiths and pantheons (at least the main gods + racial pantheon if needed) 3. Settig of Choice (again North waterdeep or ravens Bluff) 4. Lost empires 5. whatever you like

GreyMantle
2009-06-25, 05:01 PM
No, there isn't? I'm honestly lost as to where people pull this "There's a 10+ level character in every village" or "Bartenders are epic-level wizards" crap from. 15th level wizards are either powerful adventurers, rulers, or close to rulers.

What I always think of is that random town literally in the middle of nowhere that the second Year of Rogue Dragons book took place in. It's called Thentia and it has at least four wizards of 17th to 23rd level that we're supposed to believe are just chillin' in this pointless little town.

Durnan, the innkeeper of the Yawning Portal in Waterdeep, is an 18th level fighter. True, he was a former adventurer, but I feel that it takes more than an innkeeper's ambition to get to 18th level.

I find the total cluster of arcane power in Thay to be just mildly silly.

Worlds where everyone is practically a god (like in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series) can be cool, but FR isn't really one of them. It always feels like you have to be like 15th level to compete with the big boys, and in 3.x, the game is essentially broken by that point.


And why is messing with estabilished political situation supposed to be easy, again? Some of us like the fact that PCs don't get everything handed to them on a silver platter.

When you consider how powerful the average 10th level character is, I just find it really weird that they aren't important. You can just look at FR as a superhero game, but I'd prefer not to.

A 10th level character (or even lower if they're clever) should be able to affect the game world and not have DMNPC's swoop in and set everything back.

Plus the FR gods are just total dickwads.


Not everyone likes airships, magic trains, magic robots and other ridiculous quirks.
Now, as much as I like FR, it could definetly use some trimming where NPC levels are concerned so that 20th level Fighters don't come out of the blue.

I realize that some of Eberron's more unique flavor decision's don't float everyone's boat, but at least it feels like the developers were taking into account the massive power scale 3.5 has. Kings and stuff? 5th level, generally. Double-digit NPC's, especially casters? Pretty rare.

The expansiveness of FR means that a lot of the countries are really bland. Why do we need Mulhorand and Unther? Why are both Chult and Maztica (and whatever the pseudo-Africa is called) necessary? How many deserts that were created from the collapse of an arcane empire are needed in one gameworld?

Now, I don't hate Forgotten Realms; far from it. FR is great (probably better than Eberron) for classic dungeoncrawling games. However, I find Eberron (among other worlds, as I don't want to start an FR vs. Eberron debate here) to be better in creating realistic and tense geopolitical situations that could honestly end with the PC's becoming important.

Colmarr
2009-06-25, 05:45 PM
Having just read the 3E book, I checked out the 4E book, & was immediately repulsed by the utter undoing of a place I'd grown to respect & love. I've said it before, & I say it again here: I feel like I've just read a great tourism journal of Hiroshima, published on August 5th, 1945.

To keep this balanced, I haven't read the 3.xe FR books, but recently finished reading the 4e FRPG cover-to-cover.

I was immediately and continuously inspired and amazed by the plot and characterisation opportunities it presented. Not a page (of the "Almanac" section of the book) went past that I didn't think either (1) wow, I want to play one of those or (2) wow, if I were a DM I'd want to get my PCs there.

4e FR may be a warped reflection of 3e FR, but I for one consider it an amazing setting ripe with possibility.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-25, 06:02 PM
Power of Faerun also has a lovely little bit on the border kingdoms that just seems custom built for running around playing one side off against the other and dugeon delving and carving out a kingdom. (can you guess where my next campaign is being set?) plus, there's a huge set of articles on the wizards site setting up even more detail for you. Here you go (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/frbk)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-25, 06:23 PM
To keep this balanced, I haven't read the 3.xe FR books, but recently finished reading the 4e FRPG cover-to-cover.

That's the difference. The 4e FRPG is amazing in and of itself, I'm sure (I've only skimmed it), but from what I've seen it pales in comparison to the 3e and 2e versions. Many of the places in 2e and 3e that would make you go "Wow, if I were a DM I'd want to get my PCs there" simply don't exist anymore, having been nuked spellplague'd/alternate-Prime'd out of existance, and there were plenty of "Wow, I want to play one of those" classes that were dropped in 4e either because they were associated with an impact-crater-formerly-known-as-nation or because their theme didn't fit into 4e well.

The 4e FR stuff stands well on its own, taken on its own merits, but when it's compared to what came before, it is only a pale reflection of its former glory.

Saph
2009-06-25, 07:17 PM
When you consider how powerful the average 10th level character is, I just find it really weird that they aren't important. You can just look at FR as a superhero game, but I'd prefer not to.

A 10th level character (or even lower if they're clever) should be able to affect the game world and not have DMNPC's swoop in and set everything back.

Says who? Personally, I like the fact that you can get to a decent level in FR without becoming the most powerful person on the planet. It feels much more like a real world, rather than a CRPG-style setting where everyone else is your pawn.


The expansiveness of FR means that a lot of the countries are really bland. Why do we need Mulhorand and Unther?

Why do we need Ecuador and Paraguay? Again, this is one of the ways FR is like a real world. The countries aren't put there for specific reasons, they're just there. You can use them, or not.

- Saph

Deth Muncher
2009-06-25, 09:25 PM
Well...um, wow. Okay. I'm glad there's so much feedback. That's kinda amazing. And it looks like this setting is made of win, for the most part, barring the newest additions (or editions, depending on how you see it :smalltongue:). I think that DMing this might be kind of awesome. Does anyone have any personal experiences you'd like to share from the DM side of FR? I'm getting the idea that staying in one area for a campaign is just as acceptable as having the PCs go wandering around the planet Final Fantasy style.

What I'm gathering from the little bit of reading I'm doing plus this thread is that political/theological alliances are very important, and you're bound to have enemies no matter who you choose as your friend.

So, now, onto a hithero unmentioned point: The PCs. I told my players thtey can keep the same guys they rolled for the Eberron game that failed to start, which gives us, at least, a Half-Giant Barbarian. With a Fire Elemental pet. But back to the real point: what should I be on the lookout for with PCs? Not just preventing brokednessness, but rather what to keep open as options? The aforementioned Barbarian wants a handgun, for example. So he needs to, obviously, either be from an area which these or common, or visit one, which starts to flesh out that arc of the adventure.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-25, 09:50 PM
Disclaimer: All my info is as of DR 1373 or so, i.e. the 3.5 books.


Well...um, wow. Okay. I'm glad there's so much feedback. That's kinda amazing. And it looks like this setting is made of win, for the most part, barring the newest additions (or editions, depending on how you see it :smalltongue:). I think that DMing this might be kind of awesome. Does anyone have any personal experiences you'd like to share from the DM side of FR? I'm getting the idea that staying in one area for a campaign is just as acceptable as having the PCs go wandering around the planet Final Fantasy style.

You can do anything, pretty much.

If you want a city-based adventure, there's a ton of great cities, from the classic Waterdeep to Raven's Bluff to the cities of the Moonsea, Athkatla of Amn (the central location of Baldur's Gate 2), Neverwinter, and more - too many to list by far!

If you want a desert adventure, there's the Anauroch (think North African deserts, complete with Beduin analogues; and now with a giant floating city from the long-lost wizard empire of Netheril, recently back from a tour of the Plane of Shadow), and there's Calimshan (think Arabia and Persia).

If you want warfare, there's no shortage - Zhentil Keep's military ambitions against the Dalelands, the conflict of Thay and Rashemen, and more.

The Savage North is a great place for traditional adventuring, with ruins, cities, and wilderness aplenty. Orc hordes periodically sweep down from the mountains of the Spine of the World, and the Great Forest is full of secrets. The demon-hold of Hellgate Keep has been shattered, and the tanar'ri and their bred mortal servants are scattered across the Underdark of the North.

Speaking of the Underdark, FR basically defined that place. It's an endless network of caverns under all of Faerūn, full of drow, beholders, dragons, orcs, dwarves, duergar, gnomes, mind flayers, aboleths, goblins, trolls, cloakers, and endless other monsters, many with great cities and civilizations.


My own campaigns have run the gamut. Our big 3.X campaign started in Cormyr, moved into the Dalelands, and ranged all over in higher levels, always returning to the familiar Dalelands (and Mistledale specifically).

My old AD&D campaign ranged from the Western Heartlands into the Moonsea region, with the PCs visiting Hillsfar as captive gladiators (they swear, to this day, that they'll raze that city eventually), dropping into the recently-ruined Zhentil Keep...

Another of my 3.5 campaigns cast the PCs as members of the military of Silverymoon in the fledling alliance of Luruar, balancing independent adventuring with responsibilities as protectors and representatives of Silverymoon and Alustriel. I had big plans to put them in the middle of a huge orc invasion orchestrated by the cambion Kaanyr Vhok, and then get involved in the intrigues spun by the arch-wizards of the City of Shade, who plan their take-over and re-irrigation of the lands of the Anauroch, and then the surrounding regions... maybe I'll get to play those out eventually.

My Waterdeep campaign was intended to eventually focus on the Undermountain (the Expedition to Undermountain 3.5 book is lovely, IMO) - the massive dungeon built under Waterdeep (the ground is only held up under the city by an ancient mythal) by the mad mage Halaster. Quite possibly the most archetypal dungeon there is, existing really for no other reason than to be a dungeon. (Well, it did start out as a dwarf-hold, and there's many areas with specific purposes, but several levels are just mad experiments by Halaster.)


What I'm gathering from the little bit of reading I'm doing plus this thread is that political/theological alliances are very important, and you're bound to have enemies no matter who you choose as your friend.

Pretty much. There's many, many organizations, and the deities are supposed to be quite active (but mostly indirectly; since the Time of Troubles in 1358 DR when the over-deity Ao cast the deities out into the mortal world in mortal bodies and many of them slew each other or were usurped by mortals, they have been bound by rules that prevent them from directly interfering), and their intrigues do shape the destiny of the world - but resourceful or plain powerful mortals can have a great effect on those intrigues.

The amount of groups, cabals, secret societies, guilds, and alliances is staggering; CoV and CoR alone must list a hundred, almost all culled from earlier works...


So, now, onto a hithero unmentioned point: The PCs. I told my players thtey can keep the same guys they rolled for the Eberron game that failed to start, which gives us, at least, a Half-Giant Barbarian. With a Fire Elemental pet. But back to the real point: what should I be on the lookout for with PCs? Not just preventing brokednessness, but rather what to keep open as options? The aforementioned Barbarian wants a handgun, for example. So he needs to, obviously, either be from an area which these or common, or visit one, which starts to flesh out that arc of the adventure.

Half-giant barbarians should work out fine. Half-giants aren't an established race AFAIK, but you could easily find a place where a society of true-breeding half-giants lives in isolation, or come up with an explanation for why a giant and a human did the deed.

Handguns aren't that tricky: they're rare, but they're around, and a trip to Lantan shouldn't be necessary to acquire one - just ask around in Waterdeep or one of the other great ports on the Sword Coast.

There is, IMO, a danger with FR to get a party that is way too exotic. I'm such a stodgy bastard that I prefer human-majority parties with the occasional elf or dwarf, but my players tend to go wild with avariel, drow, cat-folk (denied, especially when the player wanted to be Feral on top...), and whatever else. I like characters to fit into society, at least to begin with, so I can establish a strong background during early play and tie them to the area of the world I'm using.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-25, 10:04 PM
Handguns aren't that tricky: they're rare, but they're around, and a trip to Lantan shouldn't be necessary to acquire one - just ask around in Waterdeep or one of the other great ports on the Sword Coast.

My memory's a bit fuzzy on the exact details, but one series of FR novels (the Cleric Quintet) introduced the Gond gonne, the FR equivalent of a pistol made by gnomes worshiping the deity of crafting, Gond. If you want something steampunk-ish or a bit more advanced than the usual medieval gear, have the PCs find some Gond worshipers and you can explain any contraption.

arguskos
2009-06-25, 10:18 PM
My memory's a bit fuzzy on the exact details, but one series of FR novels (the Cleric Quintet) introduced the Gond gonne, the FR equivalent of a pistol made by gnomes worshiping the deity of crafting, Gond. If you want something steampunk-ish or a bit more advanced than the usual medieval gear, have the PCs find some Gond worshipers and you can explain any contraption.
Heh, truth. I had a player who played a priest of Gond. He made all sorts of stuff, like gauntlets that sprayed Sovereign Glue to he could climb walls in full plate; a suit of full plate with a heating/cooling system (alchemical equivalent of endure elements); a hammer with a pull-away plate in the head that he stuffed with alchemist's fire, so he could hit someone they cover them in fire too; stuff like that. He was a fun character.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-25, 10:24 PM
Heh, truth. I had a player who played a priest of Gond. He made all sorts of stuff, like gauntlets that sprayed Sovereign Glue to he could climb walls in full plate; a suit of full plate with a heating/cooling system (alchemical equivalent of endure elements); a hammer with a pull-away plate in the head that he stuffed with alchemist's fire, so he could hit someone they cover them in fire too; stuff like that. He was a fun character.

One of my players made a flamethrower by combining a handy haversack full of oil flasks, a prestidigitation'd flame, and a leg-powered bellows. Enemies would laugh at him as he furiously marched in place to pressurize the thing....then he'd snap his fingers, the "pilot light" would come on, and all the Hells broke loose.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-25, 10:27 PM
My memory's a bit fuzzy on the exact details, but one series of FR novels (the Cleric Quintet) introduced the Gond gonne, the FR equivalent of a pistol made by gnomes worshiping the deity of crafting, Gond. If you want something steampunk-ish or a bit more advanced than the usual medieval gear, have the PCs find some Gond worshipers and you can explain any contraption.

AFAIK, firearms were introduced to Faerūn by the book whose name I forget (unicorn-riding warrior-woman on the cover), intended to help DMs and player's move their Forgotten Realms campaign from AD&D 1E to AD&D 2E. Not sure about the exact year that came out, but it's obviously a fairly old book. (That's AFAIK in the sense that it's the oldest source for firearms in FR that I know.)

But yes, the Lantanese gnomes who craft firearms and invented smokepowder (or whatever it's called) are worshippers of Gond, the deity of innovation, invention, and engineering.

Pretty sure the Faiths & Pantheons prestige class for priests of Gond lets them build a big ol' clockwork automaton to guard them, incidentally. (I think its stats are abysmal.)

Edit: Huh, the Canticle is from '91. I always forget how old Salvatore's books are, what with him still writing them.

Altima
2009-06-25, 10:51 PM
If you play 3.xe Forgotten Realms, ignoring any 'extra' books that encourage epic levels such as, well, the Epic Level Handbook, you get a more balanced setting. The FRCS was released before the ELH, and so had its own semi-epic level system, which wasn't particularly bad.

Once the 'godlike' PCs become a collection of level 20 characters (with maybe a totaly of four or five above level 20--the highest level character in FRCS is Halastar, at a whopping level 27, I think, even greater than Elminster). Not to mention that the gods themselves are somewhere in the 40-range. Or more.

Now, most of the high level characters are spellcasters, which makes sense. Quite a few of them are undead. However, it's all balanced out because none of them ever, ever do anything for themselves. They're all too busy running their nation/army/secret society. It's a domino effect--if one of them intervenes directly in something, that person's enemies may take the chance to pounce, and the original person's allies come, etc.

There may be plenty of high level characters, but they're more or less stuck wherever they are. They're either in hiding, reclusive, or too busy to be bothered with.

As for the deities themselves, yes they're complete jerks, but that's how most people like them. They're also funny as hell sometimes, such as all the gods--including the stodgy, stuck-up GOD OF JUSTICE--putting Cyric, the most powerful god at the time (god of death, dead, and tyranny, in fact), on trial for not being evil enough. The deities in FR are quite active in the lives of their mortal playthings.

Lastly, FR has a long list of mortals rising to godhood, like Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Midnight, Cyric, Kelemvor, The Red Knight, Finder, and so on. If that's something your players are interested in...

Talya
2009-06-25, 11:38 PM
the highest level character in FRCS is Halastar, at a whopping level 27, I think, even greater than Elminster).

Elminster is statted as "Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4" in the FRCS. I have no idea what the "Epic4" stands for, but apparently later incarnations showed him as Wiz24 instead. It seemed Epic4 implied 4 epic levels in whatever class they wanted him to have, but hadn't decided yet.

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 11:43 PM
Elminster is statted as "Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4" in the FRCS. I have no idea what the "Epic4" stands for, but apparently later incarnations showed him as Wiz24 instead. It seemed Epic4 implied 4 epic levels in whatever class they wanted him to have, but hadn't decided yet.

The only Epic class he qualifies for outside the actual Epic PrCs (that no character in Realms uses, go figure) is Epic Wizard, so I guess they found it redundant to mention which one. That reading is simply Wizard 20/Epic Wizard 4 (as they sorta have separate progressions, the distinction is good to make).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-25, 11:55 PM
In the 3.0 Forgotten Realms book, we are introduced to epic levels (before the Epic Level Handbook), which are handled very differently - basically, every level after 20th, you get to pick some benefit from a list. These levels are not taken in any class - they're just epic levels.

Altima
2009-06-25, 11:56 PM
The 'Epic 4' was the FRCS version of epic levels that I mentioned. It's described in the book somewhere.

Gerion
2009-06-26, 02:45 AM
Well...um, wow. Okay. I'm glad there's so much feedback. That's kinda amazing. And it looks like this setting is made of win, for the most part, barring the newest additions (or editions, depending on how you see it :smalltongue:). I think that DMing this might be kind of awesome. Does anyone have any personal experiences you'd like to share from the DM side of FR? I'm getting the idea that staying in one area for a campaign is just as acceptable as having the PCs go wandering around the planet Final Fantasy style.

So, now, onto a hithero unmentioned point: The PCs. I told my players thtey can keep the same guys they rolled for the Eberron game that failed to start, which gives us, at least, a Half-Giant Barbarian. With a Fire Elemental pet. But back to the real point: what should I be on the lookout for with PCs? Not just preventing brokednessness, but rather what to keep open as options? The aforementioned Barbarian wants a handgun, for example. So he needs to, obviously, either be from an area which these or common, or visit one, which starts to flesh out that arc of the adventure.

well i'm Gming FR, well i would strongly recommend stay in one place for the start. I want to know lot of Fluff and history of the places my pc's visit, and FR has to much to know by the start.
If that is not so important to you traveling is just fine.

I've Gm a campaign at the Sword Coast and one at ravens Bluff so far.
Sword Coast is the place you know and love from the Pc games. Always good for adventuring great city's (atkatla, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter,
Waterdeep, Luskan and the Ten Towns) but between them enough wilderness for as much Ruins and Dungeons you like.

Raven's Bluff is awesome and I would Strongly recomend starting there.


for the Pc's well faerun have tons of "exotic" races to choose, they invented the good drow (Drizzt) and with the Faith of Elistraee it's not only a single one. They feature Genasi, Tieflings and Asimar in the Campaing Setting.

Perhaps you want to look up the Regions in The players Guide, every Char has to choose one which details wich Languages he speaks (yes different Countries different Languages), he qualifies for a regional feat (from crap to good) and it's a good way to start a char backround.

For Classes, they have introduced the Incantrix^^

aivanther
2009-06-26, 09:14 AM
My own personal input as a player of FR campaigns: You can never go wrong with Longsaddle and the Harpells! Ever. It's like FR's version of discworld shoved into a town in some ways.

If you want intrigue the Harpers/Zhentrim/Moonstars are always up to their eyebrows in all of it, and there's lots of potential there.

The Iron Throne is a good organization to get your PCs against if you want an Evil but we can't quite prove it campaign.

Oh, and Incantrix is broken, don't let them take it. Someone once showed me a modified one, it looked okay, but the one in the Player's Guide is overpowered.

Altima
2009-06-26, 12:10 PM
There's also Larloch's mystical undead nation, ruled over by indestructable sticky webs and evil vampire generals.

Yes, *that* Larloch. Possibly one of the most powerful beings in existance.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-26, 08:50 PM
Mmm. So yeah. This looks like it's going to be an epic undertaking, as, well, there are many things to read, choose from, adapt, etc etc. It's a bit overwhelming, at least.

As to the PCs, I think I want ot have them start ~lv 10. It gives them a decent amount of power, so they'll be noticed, but not the obvious game-raping power. And I'll probably keep levelling slow. Now, keep in mind, I'm going to end up reading through everything once I have a chance (I'm actually preparing for a trip to California at the moment, which happens to involve the San Diego ComiCon, if anyone's going...), so I don't want to feel like I'm abusing you guys to create my campaign for me, but I'm betting you know the setting better than I, so here goes:

I don't necessarily want the PCs to be involved in a lot of political intrigue, because that requires writing/interpreting lots of backstory, which I frankly don't have time for. But neither do I want it to be a combat-sim. If I did, I'd just have everyone over for a good healthy game of Smash Bros. What I'd like is to have the PC's enter the world in medias res, probably in some sort of battle. They'd be fighting along some foot-soldiers of around their level, and eventually, they'd beat down the masses of people surrounding them. From there, they'd go back with the remaining troops to whatever kind was commanding them, which is when the PC's would of the overarching plot: so-and-so faction is trying to usurp the kingdom, and the PC's would be greatly rewarded were they to help. In the midst of the uberplot, there would be obligatory dungeon-crawling, orc-routing and trope-subverting.

So, where does that sound like to you guys? It's kinda looking like Zenthil/Dalelands or Thay/Rashemen.

arguskos
2009-06-26, 09:08 PM
I'd go with Thay vs. Rashemen for that feel. Dalelands vs. the Zhents can work too, but I love the flavor in Rashemen more.

Note, if you go for Thay/Rashemen, remember the culture of Rashemen prevents men from being arcane casters. That may be relevant to your parties interests. :smallamused:

Deth Muncher
2009-06-26, 09:16 PM
I'd go with Thay vs. Rashemen for that feel. Dalelands vs. the Zhents can work too, but I love the flavor in Rashemen more.

Note, if you go for Thay/Rashemen, remember the culture of Rashemen prevents men from being arcane casters. That may be relevant to your parties interests. :smallamused:

Good to know. I mean, they could be Thayvan, then. But then they'd be evil, right?

And not to mention, they don't HAVE to be Rashmani. They could be an outsider who is a male caster. It would just mean that they'd be frowned upon.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-26, 09:26 PM
Mmm. So yeah. This looks like it's going to be an epic undertaking, as, well, there are many things to read, choose from, adapt, etc etc. It's a bit overwhelming, at least.

It doesn't have to be. Just limit yourself - pick a couple of books to start with, read them, and keep narrowing your focus. You can always start small, then widen and widen your focus.

And yeah, Rashemen seems like a fine place to start. You can obviously create a war or conflict anywhere you want, but the tension and skirmishing between Thay and Rashemen makes for a good one, and gives you two well-established and detailed factions with a lot of supporting material (including the Red Wizard and Hathran PrCs) to work with. Unapproachable East will be your friend. Rashemen, particularly, is very interesting, with the berserker lodges and the very active and powerful nature spirits.

Rashemari male arcanists do exist, by the way, but they're apparently very limited socially - basically, they just sit in a hut somewhere and make magic items. (Being NPCs, they don't have to worry about gaining that XP to use.)

Zeta Kai
2009-06-26, 09:30 PM
I can understand the desire to shake things up & put one's own unique spin on things. And I can see the design choice to push the whole "points of light in the wild darkness" thing. But seriously? Forgotten Realms? Seriously?

They actually thought that killing off half the pantheon & destroying dozens of kingdoms would please their customers? If you loved FR, you'd probably be devastated. If you hated FR, then you probably wouldn't care what happened. It's a lose/lose situation, which I find to be literally incredible. It's implausible that WotC could be so boneheaded & oblivious to their customer's needs.

A much better idea, one that some people were expecting, would've been to move the timeline up a decade or two, shake things up a little, kill of a god or two, change 1 or 2 kingdoms' names with some upheaval, & be done with it. It would've been easier, more palatable for the fanbase, & shown off the strength of the 4E ruleset & its ability to provide an experience that is compatible with people's past experience. Instead, WotC used this as another opportunity to demonstrate that this new system has no continuity with the past, they couldn't care less about bridging the gap that they've created with their previous customer base, & the legacy of an ongoing setting should be sacrificed on the altar of Supreme Balance Above All.

It absolutely boggles the mind.

Saph
2009-06-26, 10:20 PM
They actually thought that killing off half the pantheon & destroying dozens of kingdoms would please their customers? If you loved FR, you'd probably be devastated. If you hated FR, then you probably wouldn't care what happened. It's a lose/lose situation, which I find to be literally incredible.

Yeah, it was really noticable in the discussions here on GitP.

Pretty much everyone who loved 3.5 FR hated the changes.
Pretty much everyone who didn't hate the changes didn't care about FR in the first place. And even if they liked the changes, they usually ended their posts with " . . . but I don't like them enough to start using the setting, I'll stick with the ones I use already."

It does seem a bad decision.

- Saph

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-26, 10:24 PM
It's an entirely different game and an entirely different setting, just with the same names. I don't expect the Japan of CP2020 and the Japan of Shadowrun to look the same, either.

I don't doubt that I could enjoy running or playing both 3.5 FR and 4E FR games, even simultaneously. IMO the FR of 3.5 works great for 3.5, and apparently the FR of 4E works great for 4E.

arguskos
2009-06-26, 10:36 PM
Rashemari male arcanists do exist, by the way, but they're apparently very limited socially - basically, they just sit in a hut somewhere and make magic items. (Being NPCs, they don't have to worry about gaining that XP to use.)
Which basically means that for players, they can't be male arcanists from Rashemen. :smalltongue: That's all I was saying.

Also, Zeta, yeah, I was VERY angered when 4e butchered the Realms. I love the setting, but it just got slaughtered by WotC. On a semi-related note, I heard somewhere that Ed Greenwood isn't using the 4e timeline changes, and is instead taking his campaign in a different, more sensible direction. Not totally sure though, since I can't find the source anymore.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-26, 10:56 PM
It's an entirely different game and an entirely different setting, just with the same names. I don't expect the Japan of CP2020 and the Japan of Shadowrun to look the same, either.

You see? This is my point. You can't take the setting/ruleset we've grown to know, take the names, slap them onto something else entirely, & not expect a backlash. They did it, & they've earned my ire for it.

And CyberPunk2020 was published by R. Talsorian Games, while Shadowrun was published by FanPro & FASA. I don't expect their takes on Japan to be the same, nor their takes on New York, Atlantis, or the Moon. If they were too similar, then I'd suspect something was up. But FR3E & FR4E were BOTH made by the SAME company, for the SAME setting. Are we seeing a distinction here? I should hope so. I would expect a more respectful treatment of a beloved setting that been around for 20+ years.

ResplendentFire
2009-06-26, 11:11 PM
I think FR 4e is a viable setting, but the information as provided is inconsistent and fragmentary if you don't read the novels, and while it seems to be written in such a way as to assume you're familiar with third edition FR, it seems to have some rather gaping holes as to what happened.

They spent a lot of time introducing plot threads for use in 3.5, and it seems strange to then spend 4.0 slamming the door on many of those threads. I'm going to pretend (should it ever be relevant to me) that they're separate continuities at this point.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-27, 12:47 AM
So I just cracked open Shining South, as I accidentally thought of that instead of Unapproachable East. And do you know what I find?

The Loxo.

I may have to have the PCs go up against some Loxos. (Loxi?)

Now, having opened the correct book, I'm looking up Rashemen. It almost reminds me of a "New France" kind of feel, what with the hunting lodges, lots of wilderness, etc, but mixed with heavy doses of spirits and the occasional Nar demon hold. Not bad. I like. And it gives me an idea for where the Berserker can be from, so delicious.

The Thayans, well...wow. They're fairly...what's the word. Self-centered? That's not it, but it'll do. EVERYTHING has Thay in the name. All of Thay seems, for the most part, to embody LE.

So I'm thinking that the PCs could start out somewhere at the Thay/Rashemen border (perhaps by that lake that was formerly used as magical monster holding), in a small skirmish versus some of the Red Wizards (and some Gnoll soldiers), with some Rashemi barbarians as allies. After the battle, they retreat to one of the many lodges in the area, relax, learn the area, and somehow get introduced to some sort of plot arc?


Sigh. I can't come up with coherent plots at 2AM.

arguskos
2009-06-27, 01:24 AM
Actually, that sounds fine, Deth. I'd play it (but only as a ranger-that's-really-a-berserker who keeps a hamster as his animal companion).

Altima
2009-06-27, 01:38 AM
The only problem I see is when you indicated that you wanted the PCs to be fighting beside 'common' soldiers of their level. Despite what some people may think of the power distribution of the realms, 10th level is still quite powerful, and requires a lifetime of adventure. I think by having whole armies of 10th level of higher sorta makes your PCs feel tiny and insignificant.

As for Thay, well, it may sound hard to believe, but it's actually better than it has been in quite some time. With Thayan enclaves popping up everywhere, Thay has more gold than they know what to do with*. This is creating quite a swelling middle class. While the Red Wizards still hold the power, the average citizen isn't as bad off as she used to be. Unless you're a slave. Then it's always bad.

*-This is a hyperbole. Thayans always have a use for gold, even if it's just to melt it down, dump a few dozen slaves into the cauldron, then shape it into dinner-wear to give it that delicious, evil flavoring.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-27, 01:39 AM
Actually, that sounds fine, Deth. I'd play it (but only as a ranger-that's-really-a-berserker who keeps a hamster as his animal companion).

:D Yes! Incoherent babble for the win!

In any event. Hey, wait, no. You mentioned silly companion shenanigans. I believe I mentioned this, but the Barbarian has a Tiny Fire Elemental pet. I totally foresee him going Mario-style and chucking it at enemies.

EDIT:

The only problem I see is when you indicated that you wanted the PCs to be fighting beside 'common' soldiers of their level. Despite what some people may think of the power distribution of the realms, 10th level is still quite powerful, and requires a lifetime of adventure. I think by having whole armies of 10th level of higher sorta makes your PCs feel tiny and insignificant.


You have a point. I doubt it would be any sort of appropriate encounter to have a bunch of 10th level mooks fight the 10th level PCs. But I'm thinking it could be like:

The PCs (level 10)
Assorted Rashemi (Barb/Fighers) (level 5-7)

versus

Red Wizards (not sure of the level)
Red...Bodyguards? I know there's a bodyguard class for the Red Wiz's, but I don't remember what it's called.

arguskos
2009-06-27, 02:11 AM
:D Yes! Incoherent babble for the win!
That was a reference to the best ranger to ever grace the Realms: Minsc! (And Boo, of course)


In any event. Hey, wait, no. You mentioned silly companion shenanigans. I believe I mentioned this, but the Barbarian has a Tiny Fire Elemental pet. I totally foresee him going Mario-style and chucking it at enemies.
...wooow. That'll be awesome.


The PCs (level 10)
Assorted Rashemi (Barb/Fighers) (level 5-7)
Make that rangers and barbarians, and you're on target. :smallwink:


Red Wizards (not sure of the level)
Red...Bodyguards? I know there's a bodyguard class for the Red Wiz's, but I don't remember what it's called.
The wizards are likely around level 7 (enough for a few levels in the Red Wizard PrC; remember to specialize!). They would only have a few (1-2 at most) Thayan Knights (Comp. War.), which are Ftr 5/Thayan Knight 1 or 2 (fastest entry). Most of the Thayan forces would be monstrous humanoid slaves, lizardfolk, minotaurs, gnolls, etc. They may also have a company of undead, depending on how large scale this attack is. If so, the most likely Thayan undead soldier is a Dread Warrior (you can find a good example in Lost Empires of Faerun, page 171 or so).

Deth Muncher
2009-06-27, 02:54 AM
The wizards are likely around level 7 (enough for a few levels in the Red Wizard PrC; remember to specialize!). They would only have a few (1-2 at most) Thayan Knights (Comp. War.), which are Ftr 5/Thayan Knight 1 or 2 (fastest entry). Most of the Thayan forces would be monstrous humanoid slaves, lizardfolk, minotaurs, gnolls, etc. They may also have a company of undead, depending on how large scale this attack is. If so, the most likely Thayan undead soldier is a Dread Warrior (you can find a good example in Lost Empires of Faerun, page 171 or so).

Thayan Knight! Yeah. That's it. I'm thinking, since I'll probably only have 4 PCs, have them + 4 assorted others, versus 4 Red Wizards, one Thayan Knight, and 3 Gnolls. This isn't meant to be a huge battle, by any means.

arguskos
2009-06-27, 03:21 AM
Thayan Knight! Yeah. That's it. I'm thinking, since I'll probably only have 4 PCs, have them + 4 assorted others, versus 4 Red Wizards, one Thayan Knight, and 3 Gnolls. This isn't meant to be a huge battle, by any means.
Well, while that is a good way to do it, consider that Red Wizards themselves aren't the most common folk around. Looking at their historical records, the Wizards tend to use waves of slaves rather than risk their own number. The traditional Thayan arrogance and all that jazz. :smallwink:

'Course, don't let me get ya down. Hell, I'm happy to see someone pick up the Realms, fall in love, and go for it! :smallbiggrin:

aivanther
2009-06-27, 08:46 AM
My $.02 on "having to be epic to be noticed" bit:

It makes sense to me, actually. If you want to stop local bandits, that sounds like a small time job for small time heroes. If you're wanting to take on a drow city, you better be high level. If you're wanting to remake the pantheon while slaughtering an army you'd better be frigging epic. It just doesn't make sense to me that low-mid level PCs would have world changing influence. (Wow, my old FR campaigns sound like Baldur's Gate...)

The large number of high level NPCs makes sense as well to me, as what would happen to all these adventurers who retire? I mean, they don't die, resurrection keeps that from happening, so where do they go? They become someone famous, or mysterious, and take up residence in a tower or an inn or what not. To me, it actually makes more sense, if adventurers exist, then they must have existed for a while. Ergo, we have people who are experienced adventurers. May humble your low level guys, but that's what low levelers should feel like, humble beginnings.

Morty
2009-06-27, 09:12 AM
Now, having opened the correct book, I'm looking up Rashemen. It almost reminds me of a "New France" kind of feel, what with the hunting lodges, lots of wilderness, etc, but mixed with heavy doses of spirits and the occasional Nar demon hold. Not bad. I like. And it gives me an idea for where the Berserker can be from, so delicious.


I think I've heard somewhere that Rashemen is at least partially based on Eastern Europe, as in Ukraine and coutries futher eastwards.
As for levels 10th level does seem too much for a footsoldier. But make them elite berserkers and it ought to work.

GreyMantle
2009-06-27, 03:10 PM
Really? I've always seen Rashemen as a Viking/Native American combo.

Thay is a pretty hardcore place, though.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-27, 04:22 PM
Really? I've always seen Rashemen as a Viking/Native American combo.

Thay is a pretty hardcore place, though.

It's pretty explicitly East European/Russian/even Siberian, IMO. (Of course, "Russia" comes from "Rus", the Variags [Vikings] who settled the area, but there's plenty of other peoples that were there first.)

Yora
2009-06-27, 05:37 PM
It always stuck me as pretty slavic, I guess the names have a great part in that. But there are definately some scandinavian traces in it, too. Which as said, fits perfectly well.

But I like Rashemen, because it's NOT a carbon copy of a real world country, which is rather nice for a change. True, there are a lot of slavic and some norse elements, but there's also a lot of really original stuff, that makes it something quite unique and interesting.

GreyMantle
2009-06-27, 08:34 PM
So no one else sees Native American influences? (Obviously nothing wrong with me being full of wrong, but it still seems pretty NA to me)

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-27, 09:48 PM
So no one else sees Native American influences? (Obviously nothing wrong with me being full of wrong, but it still seems pretty NA to me)

Not one bit, really. AFAIK they're not nomadic but very settled. Do you mean the focus on nature spirits? That's not a Native American deal, that's a shamanistic culture deal. Funnily enough, there's a sort of "belt of shamanism" along the very top of the Eurasian continent, from Lapland all the way over Siberia and to the Bering Strait...

Deth Muncher
2009-06-27, 09:49 PM
So no one else sees Native American influences? (Obviously nothing wrong with me being full of wrong, but it still seems pretty NA to me)

I did, actually. Although admittedly, it might not have been that evident that I did.

Something that I wanna check up on with you FR-buffs though. So, FR has portals, i.e. permanent links between two places, much like a Gate effect. Are these common everywhere? Or just in higher magic areas? I'm just wondering, because if so, then suddenly massive traveling time can be reduced to nil.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-27, 09:51 PM
Something that I wanna check up on with you FR-buffs though. So, FR has portals, i.e. permanent links between two places, much like a Gate effect. Are these common everywhere? Or just in higher magic areas? I'm just wondering, because if so, then suddenly massive traveling time can be reduced to nil.

They tend to be pretty rare. Most of mine are ancient, and very much plot devices. In my games, they're most common in the Underdark (which the sourcebooks do suggest anyway), and in elven ruins (like songpaths). Definitely not a transit system.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-27, 10:01 PM
They tend to be pretty rare. Most of mine are ancient, and very much plot devices. In my games, they're most common in the Underdark (which the sourcebooks do suggest anyway), and in elven ruins (like songpaths). Definitely not a transit system.

Oh! Well that's definitely a good thing to keep in mind. Which then leads me to wonder: how do you do intercontinental travel? Obviously, you have boats. And cattle/BoB-drawn carts, as well as walking. Now, the Songpaths I actually remember hearing about, but those are fairly difficult to use, as I recall. And I also recall something about those crazy Gond-worshiping Gnomes making airships. Anything I missed?

arguskos
2009-06-27, 10:11 PM
Oh! Well that's definitely a good thing to keep in mind. Which then leads me to wonder: how do you do intercontinental travel? Obviously, you have boats. And cattle/BoB-drawn carts, as well as walking. Now, the Songpaths I actually remember hearing about, but those are fairly difficult to use, as I recall. And I also recall something about those crazy Gond-worshiping Gnomes making airships. Anything I missed?
In Magic of Faerun, there are Fey Crossroads you may wish to take a look at. They're like druidic portals almost.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-27, 10:20 PM
In Magic of Faerun, there are Fey Crossroads you may wish to take a look at. They're like druidic portals almost.

Actually, I was under the assumption that's what the Songpaths were...which means my memories are muddled. :smallfrown:

arguskos
2009-06-27, 10:21 PM
Actually, I was under the assumption that's what the Songpaths were...which means my memories are muddled. :smallfrown:
I know a lot about Faerun, but I am unaware of Songpaths. Perhaps the idea of a Fey Crossroad was updated with 3.5 into Songpaths...?

If it was in Champions of Valor, Power of Faerun, or Dragons of Faerun, I don't know it. Someone want to confirm/deny this stuff?

Altima
2009-06-27, 10:24 PM
As previously stated, most travel in Faerun is good ole fashioned walking (or riding). In addition to the previously mentioned aspects of portals, ancient Netheril was also quite fond of using them. With the return of the City of Shade, they might be reactivating remote outposts that survived the downfall. Also, I believe Halruaa has some portals. Thay most likely does, too, given the nature of their enclaves.

Interesting tidbit, do you know why it's illegal to have maps of the Thayan capital? Because the city itself is a giant seal designed to keep the demon god ancient Thayans used to beat back Mulhorond from awakening. Everytime a map of the Thayan capital is made, it becomes part of the seal. If destroyed, it weakens the seal. In fact, there's a specific sect of Thayans whose sole purpose is to hunt down the maps, kill their owners/creators, and return said drawings back to their fortress for preservation.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-27, 10:31 PM
Oh! Well that's definitely a good thing to keep in mind. Which then leads me to wonder: how do you do intercontinental travel? Obviously, you have boats. And cattle/BoB-drawn carts, as well as walking. Now, the Songpaths I actually remember hearing about, but those are fairly difficult to use, as I recall. And I also recall something about those crazy Gond-worshiping Gnomes making airships. Anything I missed?

Never done intercontinental (I could hardly even tell you where Maztica is, and generally only know the setting from Icewind Dale to Calimshan and Sword Coast to Rashemen, roughly...). If my players' characters have been low enough level to need conveyances, they've walked, ridden, taken wagons, and used ships, traveling such distances as west across the Anauroch, from the Western Heartlands to Cormyr, etc. Once they get high enough level to have teleport and similar spells, they go where ever they want whenever they want. I've only really used portals for travel to and from adventure sites, such as ancient temples, drow cities, etc.

One or two of my planned campaigns would have made heavy use of "locations as treasure," including songpaths and portals.

Edit: Songpaths were basically elven portal chains, each portal taking you to the next one. You traversed them by singing a specific (epic) song, each portal being keyed to the song or a part of it. They're described in (IIRC) Lost Empires of Faerūn.

arguskos
2009-06-27, 10:42 PM
Tsotha, here, have a map:
http://www.panhistoria.com/Stacks/Novels/Character_Homes/homedirs/2100images/toril_2.jpg
Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Faerun are all clearly marked for you. :smallcool:

Note: I also just really like this map. :smallbiggrin: As a fun aside, the continents to the north and south of Maztica do have names. The Northern one is called Anchorome, and the southern is Katashaka. Further, the large continent east of Kara-Tur is called Osse, though almost nothing is known about it.

Harperfan7
2009-06-28, 02:54 AM
Ha. Osse sounds like Aussey, and that continent is where Australia would be on our map.

arguskos
2009-06-28, 03:07 AM
It's been rumored that it is meant to be an Australia analogue, but little is really known about the place. I guess it's so that Toril still has blank spaces on the map for DM's to invent themselves.

Yora
2009-06-28, 04:27 AM
Not one bit, really. AFAIK they're not nomadic but very settled. Do you mean the focus on nature spirits? That's not a Native American deal, that's a shamanistic culture deal. Funnily enough, there's a sort of "belt of shamanism" along the very top of the Eurasian continent, from Lapland all the way over Siberia and to the Bering Strait...
The word "shaman" is from Siberia.

Eldariel
2009-06-28, 04:45 AM
The word "shaman" is from Siberia.

Finnish also contains the word "shamaani" which means just that, so I'd imagine it's of a rather primordial origin. As far as I know, it came here through Russian way back then, which probably got it from the Tungusic languages. That's probably where it originated from. I'd imagine, the word has spread long ago and been adopted to describe people in that role throughout the northern Eurasia.