Does V really care about Azurite NPCs?

[Pyron]

There is something that I thought about regarding Vaarsuvius's guilt trip during the Azure City siege. The whole basis for her decent into madness that she failed to save those fleeing soldiers. But why is she so dismissive about Kubota's plots?.

One thing I've noticed about Kubota plots included attacks on the Azurite fleet and 14+ people ended up dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0508.html). In the case with the sea-trolls, there were no survivors on one of the ships. Vaarsuvius went to that ship and confirmed the death count. Notice that it didn't bother her at all, and her attitude was to not be bothered for anything above CR 11.

For someone who's been getting nightmare about watching innocent people being slaughtered you'd think she's be a little more proactive about stopping Kubota to prevent the same thing from happening again. The refuge's plight was no different from the fleeing soldiers. Instead she paid no mind.

Thinking about this evidence certainly brings V's character in a more selfish contrast. I'm getting a better impression, her guilt is less concerned about the lives of NPCs and more about that her magic failed. Vaarsuvius' compassion towards unnamed human NPCs doesn't seem as sincere as it first appears. Or her guilt is a little inconsistent.

Discuss.

[Belkster11]

I think you have something going.

V doesn't care to the extent that unless it affected him (like the demon) and he could use his magical prowess to stop the threat, it is of little concern.

[nolron]

The apparent indifference to Kubota's plots might actually have been a result of V failing to notice the gravity of the situation. It's possible that the obsession with finding Haley was powerful enough to prevent V from noticing anything else.

This nightmare (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), or whatever it was, might be the answer. Sadly, it's annoyingly cryptic....it's not clear whether V is bothered by the deaths of the soldiers, or not having magic left.

[ZeroNumerous]

The whole basis for her decent into madness that she failed to save those fleeing soldiers.

The idea is that V's spiral into madness was started by his arcane magic's failure to save those soldiers. The soldiers were inconsequential. It very well could have been chickens instead, but chickens couldn't scream out their hatred at V.

[theinsulabot]

there was a previous poster who did quite a remarkable break down on the root of V's problem stemming from a growing inferiority complex, or an increasing sense of not being good enough. V is good (enough) to be moved by senseless deaths. to the point where he is willing to act to prevent them, if possible, when v left the azurites to die, it wasn't just that they had perished, though of course that didnt help, it was because v had to come to terms with the fact that his magic couldn't save them. he didn't have the power. then, even after months of (literally) tireless effort, he failed to magically penetrate cloister. which, whole we readers knew as an epic level shield, V merely saw, to his mounting frustration, as repeated failures of his supposedly vaunted magic. this finally culminated in him making the deal, for all the wrong reasons. he knew he could save his family through alternate means, but he took the deal to gain the magic he felt he lacked, to finally become "good enough" to achieve his ends rather then failure ontop of failure ontop of failure


this is not my own theory, though i believe it, this, once again, is a paraphrased explanation of another poster from these boards

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius might have acted more concerned about the Azure City refugees if s/he had been willing and able to consciously acknowledge feeling guilt over the deaths at Azure City. Since s/he was, on every conscious level, maintaining s/he had done nothing wrong, s/he was motivated to treat the refugees with disregard instead.

[theinsulabot]

Vaarsuvius might have acted more concerned about the Azure City refugees if s/he had been willing and able to consciously acknowledge feeling guilt over the deaths at Azure City. Since s/he was, on every conscious level, maintaining s/he had done nothing wrong, s/he was motivated to treat the refugees with disregard instead.


well, v really HADNT done anything wrong. i mean, pragmatically, he didnt have any possible way he could of helped the soldiers, but between the guilt of letting them dioe and reppressed self recrimination for allowing them to be killed, well it put a strain on him

[Silfir]

Vaarsuvius is pragmatic, I don't think he would've felt much in the way of remorse if fate would've left it at abandoning the fort wall. The cause of his trauma wasn't that he ran out of spells - it's certainly not the first time he did, and at the point he treats it, pragmatically, as the reality it is. No, the cause of his trauma is that he had to watch people all around him being cut to death while they were begging him to save them. It hit him as hard as it did precisely because he WAS capable of feeling compassion back then, and the trauma from this incident is what CAUSED his shutting off the part of his soul that felt compassion, because it also happened to be the part of his soul that felt guilt, and losing his pragmatism and grip on reality.

[veti]

I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on V.

The key difference between the soldiers in the city and the Azurites on the boat is that, in the city, they were pretty much helpless against the tidal wave of hobgoblins, and they turned to V for help. It's a good point that V's shortage of magic was what caused this failure - but whatever the reason, it was a very personal failure.

But on the boat there are all those paladins, plus Elan and Durkon, who are quite capable of handling any low-level challenge without V's help. Deaths there are not V's personal responsibility in the same way.

[[TS] Shadow]

It is my opinion that V felt very little over the actual deaths of those Azurites. It was the lack of power to save them that bothered him. He only cares about his arcane power, nothing else. For those of you who think that I'm too hard on V, I don't care. He's a selfish, arrogant prick (I would use other terminology but then I'd be banned) and he's been ticking me off this entire arc.

[Pyron]

Shadow;6360802']It is my opinion that V felt very little over the actual deaths of those Azurites. It was the lack of power to save them that bothered him. He only cares about his arcane power, nothing else.

Couldn't agree more.


The cause of his trauma wasn't that he ran out of spells - it's certainly not the first time he did, and at the point he treats it, pragmatically, as the reality it is. No, the cause of his trauma is that he had to watch people all around him being cut to death while they were begging him to save them.

If that is the case, it's still a evidence of V's poor coping mechanism. She couldn't cope with soldiers dying in a war zone to the point where she's unmoved about the slaughter of helpless civilians as they got eaten by trolls? I don't buy that, especially when she stated the cause of her guilt is rooted in not having enough arcane magic.


But on the boat there are all those paladins, plus Elan and Durkon, who are quite capable of handling any low-level challenge without V's help. Deaths there are not V's personal responsibility in the same way.

Lien said it best, these low level challenges are claiming the lives of good men and women.

That's my point. In Azure City she confessed that her guilt was because her magic failed to save their lives. With the Azurite Refugees, Vaarsuvius had another chance to save lives but she ignored the opportunity. Her magic could had save the day a lot sooner if she acted.

It gets worse. She saw those fleet encounter as little more than a chance to gain experience points (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html). It's like she actually want these monsters to attack the fleet. Not a very compassionate mindset. She doesn't have beat herself up, but the least she can do is give a damn.

[vincible]

V's a big picture type. There are several times when he doesn't want to deal with what he sees as petty problems because (he says) there are really huge problems he ought to be dealing with--rampaging liches, the Snarl, etc. The dirt farmers and the Julia rescue come to mind--in both cases he asks the party if the diversion is important enough to justify delaying or endangering the main mission.

The Azure refugees are entirely consistent with his actions in these other encounters--there are a handful of lives at stake in the Kubota thread. (It's not clear if "ordinary" Azurites would even notice the difference between Kubota and Hinjo as ruler.) But many, many, many lives are at stake in the main plot. Remember how he's constantly asking: "Can we please get back to saving the world?"

If you don't like V, you can view this as not caring about these people, and using the "main quest" as an excuse to ignore them. If you do like V, you can view this as him believing that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, even when the few are right in front of you asking for help. It's a very cold and ruthless view of the world, but not necessarily a wrong one. It's very wizard-like and the sort of view you'd get by spending centuries in a tower studying magic and arcane lore and not very much time dealing with people.

So, to V, the fate of some a dirt farmer or a handful of Azure guards is, in the big scheme of things, not as important as Azure City. Tens of thousands of people died, with more impressed into slavery, and huge power was given to an ultra-sadistic lich. That is a huge failure that V cares about, and working to prevent a disaster like that from occurring again is really important, more important than 14+ guards.



Another point. Nightmare scene for reference:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html

It's very hard for me to read that comic and think that V didn't care at all about the soldiers. She has nightmares of the soldiers dying in front of her begging for help. The same nightmare, over and over and over for months. This horrible thing, multiplied by a hundred or a thousand or more, is what she couldn't prevent. If the issue was *just* her powerlessness, you wouldn't expect complete fixation on this memory: you'd expect the death knight, or having to run away, or for that matter nightmares about Leeky.

[Kaytara]

Well-said, vincible.

Guys, there IS such a thing as basic psychology. Vaarsuvius who had already experienced the trauma in Azure City, had already gone without trancing for some time and was already a fair bit into his obsessive state is not the same person who had fought with the Azurites in the battle. Arguing that a lack of compassion then speaks of a lack of compassion under normal circumstances is like saying that Haley's characterisation is inconsistent because one moment she isn't able to talk in anything but gibberish and the next moment she is!

Besides which, Vaarsuvius didn't want to be disturbed for that because he was still trying to "save" those other soldiers. Finding Haley had become his symbol of proving that he WAS good enough to help people in need.

Besides which, becoming distant emotionally is one of the textbook symptoms of PTSD, something that fits Vaarsuvius in every other possible way, as well.

Those arguing that V only EVER cared about his spells ignore the fact that V has failed horribly, miserably many times before (he was utterly ineffectual in both Miko fights, the first Xykon fight, in the bandit camp, was beaten up by trees and needed to be bailed out by a cleric in Cliffport) but somehow survived that with his pride and self-esteem intact. A possible interpretation is that while those were failures, what happened in Azure City and with V not penetrating the Cloister were FAILURES, and whether that results in the loss of lives ranks pretty high on V's priority rating.

Sure, it's all left ambiguous enough that it's possible to interpret in the worst possible light for V and decide that he never cared one whit about anyone other than himself, that he is truly unambiguously selfish and self-centred. But where would the fun in that be? Anyone can write a complete monster, complex and flawed characters with good as well as bad sides are another thing. Here, we have a character who is easily the latter. Why people give Rich's writing skills so little credit as to dismiss that possibility is beyond me. :smallwink:


Vaarsuvius might have acted more concerned about the Azure City refugees if s/he had been willing and able to consciously acknowledge feeling guilt over the deaths at Azure City. Since s/he was, on every conscious level, maintaining s/he had done nothing wrong, s/he was motivated to treat the refugees with disregard instead.

This, too. V believed himself practical and above such things, to the point where the first thing he says after waking up from another nightmare is mutter about how "inefficient" trancing is. He thinks himself nothing if not rational and feeling guilt over the Azurites after he had done everything in his power to save him was irrational and perhaps something he felt ashamed of, as well. It would make sense for him to focus his efforts on the most practical thing to do, searching for Haley, rather than helping out the fleet.

[thepsyker]

Hmm, I suppose I could say something, but really I think Kaytara covered my thoughts on the matter much better than I ever could, so I'll just say that I second what she said and bravo for expressing it so well.

[Morquard]

well, v really HADNT done anything wrong. i mean, pragmatically, he didnt have any possible way he could of helped the soldiers, but between the guilt of letting them dioe and reppressed self recrimination for allowing them to be killed, well it put a strain on him
I'm not so sure there.
From what I gathered, people assume the OotS was around level 12-14 at the time of the Azure City attack.
A level 12 wizard has a BaB like a level 6 fighter. Sure he's completely missing the feats and everything, I know that.
But considering the Azurites were running out of level 5+ people (actually most of them were in the throne room), and the goblins were so low they didn't even give any XP to Belkar anymore even when he slaughterd 50 of them, I guess if V had picked up a longsword (as elf he's proficient with it), he could have actually helped those Azurites. Not all of them of course, but that small group.
He was also most likely still buffed, so those 4 hobgoblins would probably not even hit him once.

Of course getting physical would never enter V's mind, I'm aware of that, he's not a sorcerer ;)

[theinsulabot]

I'm not so sure there.
From what I gathered, people assume the OotS was around level 12-14 at the time of the Azure City attack.
A level 12 wizard has a BaB like a level 6 fighter. Sure he's completely missing the feats and everything, I know that.
But considering the Azurites were running out of level 5+ people (actually most of them were in the throne room), and the goblins were so low they didn't even give any XP to Belkar anymore even when he slaughterd 50 of them, I guess if V had picked up a longsword (as elf he's proficient with it), he could have actually helped those Azurites. Not all of them of course, but that small group.
He was also most likely still buffed, so those 4 hobgoblins would probably not even hit him once.

Of course getting physical would never enter V's mind, I'm aware of that, he's not a sorcerer ;)



it wouldnt of mattered though. because that invisibility was v's last spell. even if he could of defeated the first couple of pursuing hobgoblins, he would of been an elfg trying to lead a bunch of low level red shirts out of the city, his chance of escaping would of been exactly 0%. there was NOTHING he could do to save those people, they were already dead, all he could of done was die with them

[Kaytara]

it wouldnt of mattered though. because that invisibility was v's last spell. even if he could of defeated the first couple of pursuing hobgoblins, he would of been an elfg trying to lead a bunch of low level red shirts out of the city, his chance of escaping would of been exactly 0%. there was NOTHING he could do to save those people, they were already dead, all he could of done was die with them

The interesting thing is, practically the same things were true of the circumstances of V's "second chance", as well. He was out of useful spells, heavily injured, invisible and with a way to flee. Helping someone in need meant a very high risk of being detected and dying (or worse, since he'd just been threatened with unimaginable torture). And yet he STILL helped O-Chul, because being practical and reasonable had taken a backseat to doing what he felt he needed to do. It might signify V becoming more accepting of the idea that pragmatism is not the only way to view the world - or maybe that it's not 100% right for him. His guilt kind of looks like he may have a heroic streak that doesn't like to go neglected for too long. I'm eager to see how V develops from now on.

[Morquard]

it wouldnt of mattered though. because that invisibility was v's last spell. even if he could of defeated the first couple of pursuing hobgoblins, he would of been an elfg trying to lead a bunch of low level red shirts out of the city, his chance of escaping would of been exactly 0%. there was NOTHING he could do to save those people, they were already dead, all he could of done was die with them
That may be so, but I think V's subconciousness disagrees. He knows he could have done something, if he would have died afterwards with them? Who knows.
I think that may actually be why he has the nightmares. He could have helped them, but choose not to. It wasn't that he COULDN'T help them.
He just doesn't want to accept that "help" might actually mean non-magical means.

I agree, its pretty much the same with O-Chul, just here he goes back and helps, so yes, I think that scene was a turning point in his character development.

[Kalbron]

Except in Azure City Round 1 there wasn't a MitD Ex Machina waiting to teleport him to safety after his heroics. He would have been deader than Roy if the Hobgoblins had got to him, because the OotS would need a True Ressurrection to bring him back. Fun Hobgoblin Fact: they enjoy burning elves alive in FR lore at least, I doubt they'd be too much different in OotS with regards to utterly destroying an elven corpse either via fire or stomach acid.

A wizard without any spells, without any luck and without any weapons would have no chance at all against a hobgoblin horde. V felt guilt because he believed he should have been able to help not because he could help. A smart wizard always leaves something in reserve as a last resort after all. Besides which, the Azurites might have managed to survive if they'd kept on fleeing instead of waiting to be slaughtered.

[Kronno]

There's another factor to V's psyche that I think is important as well.

Incidentally I agree with everything Kaytara has said here and elsewhere regarding V. he is a deep and complicated character who is wonderfully written and too many people try to make him 2 dimensional.

Back on topic: There is an aspect of V's personality that I understand perfectly because I have it as well, I tend to think of it as "No makes him Go". What I mean is that V is clearly more interested in having the ability to deal with an issue, than he is in actual success. V doesn't care about fighting the attacks on the fleet because he knows they won't be a challenge. In effect the fact that he CAN'T do something makes him try harder, where as once he is confident he can, he loses interest. I had a tragic tendency in college to get better grades on classes that were difficult than on classes that were easy for exactly this reason. once I knew I COULD get an A, I didn't care if I did. V has displayed this tendency more than once even before the recent PTSD and decent into obsession & fiend pacts.

While I do believe V felt genuine guilt at the idea of abandoning O-Chull as he had those soldiers, I believe it also triggered an important part of his nature in that he had to prove to himself that he COULD make a difference without his magic.

As I've said I love V because he is complex and believable so there is no way of knowing how much this factored into his actions at the time, I just feel that in the discussion of the major events that shaped him & his actions, we should also bear in mind the basic nature of the man (yes I thnk V's a man) in question. Incidentally, as Psychology keeps coming up, I think V is clearly INTJ (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=mastermind)on the Myers-Briggs Personality profile (hmm.. debate bout psych profiles may merit a new thread).

[Pyron]

Back on topic: There is an aspect of V's personality that I understand perfectly because I have it as well, I tend to think of it as "No makes him Go". What I mean is that V is clearly more interested in having the ability to deal with an issue, than he is in actual success. V doesn't care about fighting the attacks on the fleet because he knows they won't be a challenge. In effect the fact that he CAN'T do something makes him try harder, where as once he is confident he can, he loses interest.

Interesting point.

While I think this might be a good valid point, I must point that, with the fleet attacks, there is more at stake than the lack of challenge. It's nice to say that V is not concerned about the monster because they're below her CR. It's fine to state that Elan, Durkon, Hinjo, etc. are all capable warriors.

But what about the civilian populace? The one's who can not even defend themselves when the trolls come on board. These people in a even worse position than the soldiers (they can at least fight back). I'm sure that, much like V, none of those NPC casualties wanted to be slaughter so some nobleman can undermine Hinjo's authority. That's why V's disregarding Kubota should not be glossed over; she acts like that she's the only victim.


Guys, there IS such a thing as basic psychology. Vaarsuvius who had already experienced the trauma in Azure City, had already gone without trancing for some time and was already a fair bit into his obsessive state is not the same person who had fought with the Azurites in the battle. Arguing that a lack of compassion then speaks of a lack of compassion under normal circumstances is like saying that Haley's characterisation is inconsistent.

Are you arguing that just because V's action within the Azurite fleet are not 'normal' circumstances we should just ignore everything that happened. Not sure if I agree with that; otherwise we'll just have a free pass to ignore anything that we don't like.

It's interesting that people claim that deep down Vaarsuvius has a heart of gold, and is deeply concerned about the lives and well-being of every human. While she might like to see the world in one piece, deep down we also see someone who pathologically places arcana over altruism.

Case in point: her retorts that these refuge attacks are nothing but a source of XP and a means to gain greater arcane power is downright malicious. That’s right, all those attacks where innocent people (who already lost their home) are dying is something Vaarsuvius sees as a plus. Her only regret was that the monsters weren’t more challenging.

That’s not the mindset of a compassionate person.


Besides which, Vaarsuvius didn't want to be disturbed for that because he was still trying to "save" those other soldiers. Finding Haley had become his symbol of proving that he WAS good enough to help people in need.

I don't recall her actually saying anything about saving those soldiers. Her goal was entirely focused on finding Haley. Unless you have some proof to back up this.


Those arguing that V only EVER cared about his spells ignore the fact that V has failed horribly, miserably many times before (he was utterly ineffectual in both Miko fights, the first Xykon fight, in the bandit camp, was beaten up by trees and needed to be bailed out by a cleric in Cliffport) but somehow survived that with his pride and self-esteem intact. A possible interpretation is that while those were failures, what happened in Azure City and with V not penetrating the Cloister were FAILURES, and whether that results in the loss of lives ranks pretty high on V's priority rating.

But why were those failures different? Those situations aren't different. In all those cases, lives were at stake (anyone with critical thinking skills, like a wizard, should recognize that.) and V faced some limitation to her arcane power. Saying that she survived with her pride also suggests that she’s not bothered with the possibility that, as a result of her arcane limitations (or failures), innocent people and her allies could die.

The only difference from those examples and Azure City was: A) there is opportunity to blame someone else first (before she could blame her magic; for example Belkar's antics), and B) nobody really died therefore the dangers of the adventuring profession never really sunk in. In her eyes, her magic was perfect. When reality doesn't agree with her, and she can’t pass the buck to something else her world view and psyche crumbles. Considering how she grew up, this fits rather well.


Sure, it's all left ambiguous enough that it's possible to interpret in the worst possible light for V and decide that he never cared one whit about anyone other than himself, that he is truly unambiguously selfish and self-centred. But where would the fun in that be? Anyone can write a complete monster, complex and flawed characters with good as well as bad sides are another thing. Here, we have a character who is easily the latter. Why people give Rich's writing skills so little credit as to dismiss that possibility is beyond me.

That’s a petty little straw man you got there, Kaytara.

Just because people have a different interpretation on V’s characterization that’s not some rose-tinted tragic hero archetype does not give you the right to belittle their arguments. We’re not being fun because we’re looking at things differently? Really, is that how you think? A person having different ideas from yours doesn’t mean they’re giving Rich’s writing skills little credit. Surprising, I know but that's how diverse opinions work.

I know I sound rather harsh, but I excepted more from you.

[choie]

It's interesting that people claim that deep down Vaarsuvius has a heart of gold, and is deeply concerned about the lives and well-being of every human.

So ... Kaytara is the one using strawmen?

Right, just checking. :smallconfused:

[SadisticFishing]

I always thought this was almost obvious!

V's main character trait is single mindedness.

[Pyron]

So ... Kaytara is the one using strawmen?

So.... just because you think you've found a straw man in my post that show how let's Kaytara off the hook? It just doesn't work like that. Pointing “you too!” is a poor counter argument.

Besides, what you've quoted from me is not really a straw man. People have made the claim that V's is deep down a good person (there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself). However, I found a contradiction based on the evidence presented in the comic and opened it for discussion. There is nothing wrong that.

Kaytara responded with the following: anyone who points out some negative interpretation on V's character = we see her as a one-dimensional character = a low opinion on Rich's writing abilities. That is just utterly false, and it rings with an appeal to authority. It dismissive to the idea that people can have different interpretations without the one-dimensional mindset. At least, that's the impression I'm getting.

[choie]

So.... just because you think you've found a straw man in my post that show how let's Kaytara off the hook? It just doesn't work like that. Pointing “you too!” is a poor counter argument.

I'm not making a counter argument here. I did all my arguing about V's mental processes in this lengthy thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112986), and I don't want to bore everyone with my thoughts yet again since I'm only a pixie and already I've got a rep for being as dull and wordy as my favorite OOTS character.

What I did mean is that it is hypocritical to slam Kaytara for using hyperbole and strawmen when you then proceed to reduce her (and others') arguments to the absurd "Vaarsuvius is as good as gold and cares about all the Elven Gods' creatures with the beatific warmth of an angel" defense, when in fact no one, even V's most staunch defenders (of whom I am one) has ever made claims that Vaarsuvius isn't self-centered, arrogant, and quite often dismissive.

To answer your OP question: Yes, V does care about them, in V's way. Vaarsuvius has tunnel-vision and grew obsessive about making things right, in the form of finding Haley and Roy. V ignored the plight on the island because V was ignoring the real reason for the nightmares and feelings of inadequacy; V was blaming it on not having enough arcane power and not using it correctly to save the day, but the truth is what V saw every time V closed his/her eyes. What haunted V is not the loss of V's group leader and friend Roy, or V's best friend Haley, or even the loss of Azure City as a whole. It was the death of several NPC Azurites. This was indeed due to the lack of V's arcane magic, but so were all the other failures. But this one is the failure that haunts V. All those soldiers were relying on V, and s/he failed them.

I think Vaarsuvius wants to think such petty lives are beneath V, but the evidence to the contrary is that nightmare. If V's sole reason for obsessing was merely proving arcane magic uber alles, then V could've easily made him/herself feel better by using a few spells to save the Azurites against the monsters. But V had, as I said, tunnel vision, and was also coccooning him/herself to avoid the problem and chose to focus on the Grand Gesture -- finding Haley/Roy. It's classic avoidance and psychological pig-headed ignorance and mistake-making. And it's very interesting to watch.

So no, V is not a tragic woobie -- but neither is V some heartless egomaniac jerk, as some of you are depicting the character.

Annnnnd there I go being longwinded against my better judgment. Sorry.

[Kaytara]

What I did mean is that it is hypocritical to slam Kaytara for using hyperbole and strawmen when you then proceed to reduce her (and others') arguments to the absurd "Vaarsuvius is as good as gold and cares about all the Elven Gods' creatures with the beatific warmth of an angel" defense, when in fact no one, even V's most staunch defenders (of whom I am one) has ever made claims that Vaarsuvius isn't self-centered, arrogant, and quite often dismissive.

Gah, Choie tends to take the words right out of my mouth. XD

But anyway. Quoted for truth, a zillion times. Really, please, read this and take it to heart.

Criticism of an extreme position ("V is completely selfish and should die!") does not equal defence of the opposite extreme position ("V is a saint and should ascend to godhood!"
Criticism of someone choosing to take the worst possible interpretation does not equal criticism of anyone making any sort of negative interpretation.

And really, I don't know how the strawman idea even could fit. It's a trick used in debates to deal with a particular argument one isn't able to address otherwise. Since I wasn't debating with anyone but rather just stating my stance, I don't see how that's even possibly eligible to be a strawman. So....

Going off on a tangent does not equal a strawman.

And most importantly, there is always middle ground. Just as people (and androgynous elves) are usually a mixture of both good and bad traits, the position in a discussion as well can be more complex than just "V rocks!" or "V sucks!". If someone's general position disagrees with yours and you want to address it, please actually read what the person is writing.

Now, back on topic, I agree with you that the reason V's previous failures didn't hit him that hard is a mixture of not being forced to take personal responsibility (aka he could blame someone else) and his overall lack of understanding of the adventuring life. It's important to remember that V mostly just sat in a tower doing research before he joined Roy's team. He has no prior experience. Frankly, it's surprising he even copes as well as he does with general battle tension and the need to make split-second decisions.

As for your first point about the deaths on the boat, you're still ignoring the basics of psychology. Trauma messes people up. That, again, does not mean that I'm trying to give Vaarsuvius a free pass for everything that's happened, I don't even know HOW you could get that idea. That was a direct response to the OP's question: Is it inconsistent with V's guilt over Azure City? My answer was no, because by then V's mind was no longer functioning normally and so there is no inconsistency.

I also agree with Choie that V was quite possibly trying to convince himself that he was above such things. I mentioned that briefly in my previous post... Beside magic, V values practicality and logic, to the point where he complains about the existence of owlbears or a trap that sprays only barbecue sauce. He knows that running away from Azure City really was the "only sound tactical decision". He knows that he shouldn't feel so bothered about it all and that his nightmares are ridiculous because there wasn't anything he could do to help those soldiers, so why dwell on it so much? The fact that he still can't get over it probably causes him frustration just by itself, and I could see him trying to stomp down that inconvenient touchy side of his that keeps tormenting him with nightmares by burying himself in nice, practical research while ignoring tasks that are clearly inferior in practicality.

Incidentally, this also disagrees a small bit with your opinion that deep down V values magic over altruism. I'm not sure we can say it just like that. I think a great deal of his troubles is exactly that whatever preference he has of magic over altruism apparently isn't as clear-cut as he usually makes it seem or even wants it to be.

Oh, and you asked for proof that V sees Haley as a symbol of saving those soldiers... Well, look at it this way. We know V had already stopped trancing by then, ergo his nightmares had already started. He was touchy and irritable about how his magic wasn't enough to turn the tide. Not even just that, he specifically mentions the soldiers: "I could have saved the lives of countless soldiers with just a slightly greater application of arcane power, but I did not possess the capacity." That comment sounds general but to me it makes sense that V actually means it in a very specific way - he is thinking of that one group of soldiers that he could've saved with just a Fireball or two, or an Invisibility Sphere, or any other number of small things.
How was V trying to "save" those soldiers by looking for Haley? How about this: He realised that he did not have the power to save people. Vaarsuvius relies on magic to solve problems, including saving people. "If arcane power cannot solve a problem such as this, then I should never have left to seek it out... and this would never have happened." By finding Haley, he would save someone and prove that he DOES have the power and that he WILL be able to save people in the future and that the dying soldiers incident would never happen again.

This is all my interpretation. I think the fact that it's even possible to interpret a character in such deep and psychological ways is completely awesome. I don't expect people to agree with me but still hope that I'm contributing something interesting to the discussion this way.
You are welcome to your interpretation, as long as everyone remains nice and civil about it. (Although I have trouble understanding how anyone could look at V's expression in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) and still claim that V only cares about himself.) I'm sorry if my post disappointed you, but I hope you agree that it was just a misunderstanding.

[Pyron]

Criticism of an extreme position ("V is completely selfish and should die!") does not equal defence of the opposite extreme position ("V is a saint and should ascend to godhood!"

True. But the OP was not challenging the claim of either extreme positions.


Thinking about this evidence certainly brings V's character in a more selfish contrast. I'm getting a better impression, her guilt is less concerned about the lives of NPCs and more about that her magic failed.

It's a question about where V's obsession was geared towards more. Thinking about, I can see how some of my replies can distorted as an extreme positive because I choose to focus on specific aspects of the position (Deep down, V cares ...) while not mentioning the middle ground (V isn't still self-centered). I apologize if I didn't word it correctly. Honestly, I thought some things did not have to be spelled out. I never claimed that V's defender position = she's completely without arrogance.


And really, I don't know how the strawman idea even could fit. It's a trick used in debates to deal with a particular argument one isn't able to address otherwise. Since I wasn't debating with anyone but rather just stating my stance, I don't see how that's even possibly eligible to be a strawman. So....

Going off on a tangent does not equal a strawman.

You're right. Maybe 'strawman' is not the correct term for your tangent. The problem still lies with the stance you've made (no matter what the fallacy definition is):

Why people give Rich's writing skills so little credit as to dismiss that possibility is beyond me.

You've put forth the loaded assumption that people are giving Rich little credit just because they choose to see V in the worst possible light. My response is this: It's one thing to criticize those who takes the worst interpretation. It's another thing entirely to make false generalizations about the people who support that (or any) particular opinion. It comes across as an insult.

To point it out: People's negative opinion regarding Vaarsuvius has no merit on their appreciation for the Giant's writing ability what so ever. I mean, Xykon's a 'complete monster' in every sense and he's well written.

If that's not your stance and really wish to be civil, then I suggest you should think on this.

[Kaytara]

Okay... I see where the problem is coming from.

You're right, the OP was not putting forth an extreme claim, but the subsequent posts were, so I replied to that.


Shadow;6360802']It is my opinion that V felt very little over the actual deaths of those Azurites. It was the lack of power to save them that bothered him. He only cares about his arcane power, nothing else. For those of you who think that I'm too hard on V, I don't care. He's a selfish, arrogant prick (I would use other terminology but then I'd be banned) and he's been ticking me off this entire arc.


Couldn't agree more.


That's the stance I (and others since that) have addressed. Your original post isn't anywhere as controversial, since you mostly just put forth some food for thought and ask us to discuss it.


I never claimed that V's defender position = she's completely without arrogance.
The point is not the particular trait of being without arrogance, but you said that "It's interesting that people claim that deep down Vaarsuvius has a heart of gold, and is deeply concerned about the lives and well-being of every human."
...when, as Choie pointed out, nobody has made a claim like that. We've mostly been arguing that it is not ONLY arrogance which drives V, contrary to some other positions. I can see how the position "V has other sides to him besides arrogance" can be interpreted to mean "V is actually a very very good and nice person". Honestly, I can see why you would get that vibe, but I assure you that it is a misinterpretation. I think it all comes back to the old tendency to make assumptions about people's positions.... (I can't say for certain that I haven't been guilty of it myself, incidentally, but I try as best as I can to avoid it.)

As for your other point... Well, ahem, you misquoted me.
HERE is what I said:

Why people give Rich's writing skills so little credit as to dismiss that possibility is beyond me. :smallwink:
I apologise if I did not make it clear enough that that particular comment was a joke. I do not think people who see V in the worst possible light are being dismissive of Rich's writing skills. If that's the way the comic reads to them, fine. I do think they're really missing out on something good if they're trying to interpret a (in my opinion) very well-rounded and complex character as a cardboard cut-out with no traits but "cares only about power" and "is rude and obnoxious to everyone around him".


To point it out: People's negative opinion regarding Vaarsuvius has no merit on their appreciation for the Giant's writing ability what so ever. I mean, Xykon's a 'complete monster' in every sense and he's well written.
I don't think Xykon is a good comparison, actually. (Warning: Going off on a tangent here. :D) I mean, he is completely irredeemably horrible. He regularly commits Moral Event Horizon upon Moral Event Horizon (an accomplishment that is characterised by the idea that the sheer horror of the act makes the villain cease to appear cool, funny or sympathetic). And yet he's one of the most popular characters in the comic and people cheer at every line that comes out of his mouth. He's well and truly horrible, but in a completely hilarious way, which speaks of well more advanced writing skills than merely the label "Complete Monster".

Vaarsuvius, by contrast, if regarded as evil, then only in the whiny "evil, but for a good cause" way that Xykon himself looks down on. Maybe that is exactly what makes V much more loathed than Xykon, as a character - Xykon appears distant enough that we can disregard any ties we might have to him and just laugh at his depravity, while V is human enough and similar enough to us that some people do not view him as a character but instead judge him as a person.

For my part, I prefer to do the former. I can't stand arrogant people IRL any better than the average person. I'd probably endure about one minute of V's antics before saying something sharp and mean and storming off in a huff. What allows me to like him here is that I don't view him as a person, I view him as a work of art - namely, fiction. I love him because IMO he is a great character and very well-written, not because I consider him some sort of paragon of virtue, which is what many people have interpreted my defence of him to signify. I like well-written characters and I personally consider V to be one of the better-written characters not only in OotS but in fiction in general.
Characters you can look up to are nice, but a dime in a dozen.
Characters you honestly couldn't completely like even if you wanted because you know far too well that they're not all good and pure are much more appealing to me.

[theinsulabot]

That may be so, but I think V's subconciousness disagrees. He knows he could have done something, if he would have died afterwards with them? Who knows.
I think that may actually be why he has the nightmares. He could have helped them, but choose not to. It wasn't that he COULDN'T help them.
He just doesn't want to accept that "help" might actually mean non-magical means.

I agree, its pretty much the same with O-Chul, just here he goes back and helps, so yes, I think that scene was a turning point in his character development.


i do recognize the significance of going back for o-chul, all the same, pragmatically, it wasn't the best call there either. in fact, dispite what character growth may or may not of been involved, V once again ended up needing another thinly veiled deus ex machina to save his life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html)