Did the Oracle Miff a Prediction? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

adibobo

2009-06-25, 01:12 AM

My apologies if this has been brought up before, and i'm new to these forums, but in reading over the archives, I noticed something that has been nagging at me...

In Strip #331, V asks the Oracle "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power" and the Oracle's response was "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons"

Now, the obvious implication would seem to be that this prophecy came true in strip #634, wich is even titled "The wrong reasons", when the last words V says before accepting the IFCCs offer is "I... I, must succeed". My problem is that although 4 words were spoken, they have absolutely no connection to V gaining any power at all, the Fiends even set up an elaborate system to bypass any form of verbal acceptance or rejection by using the red-blue orb system. One could also nitpick that the IFCC were 3 beings while the Prophecy seemed to indicate there would be a singular entity that V would speak the fateful 4 words to.

Does this mean that the Oracle miffed the prophecy? Or more interestingly, perhaps that the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled? The Splice, although mighty, certainly has enough drawbacks and limitations to fall short of a realy acurate description of "total ultimate arcane power".

I agree with you, V saying the four words wasn't the deciding factor in weather or not he would gain the arcane power, and i think that Rich may have fooled us so that the REAL four words will catch us unexpectedly.

Red XIV

2009-06-25, 01:23 AM

Morquard

2009-06-25, 01:31 AM

I see it that "ultimate" may have two meanings.
First it might mean "ultimate forever, everywhere", basicly more arcane power than ANYONE, ANYWHERE, EVER had. I doubt the splice was that powerful. But then again, maybe with all 3 together it really was.

On the other hand "ultimate" might simply mean "the highest *I* will ever achive in live". In that interpretation its quite likely that V won't be getting that kind of power again.

So depending how the Oracle interpreted the words, it might very well mean the second version. Thats what I think anyway

Elemental_Elf

2009-06-25, 01:38 AM

Given that the splices gave V an effective caster level in the 80s or above, in terms of sheer arcane power there's virtually no chance that he'll ever come close to matching it again. So yes, this was V's "ultimate arcane power".

Pun-Pun could kill Evil V, though Pun-Pun is more of a God than a mortal...

~~~

I think we should all call Evil V -eVil :smallwink:

David Argall

2009-06-25, 01:51 AM

No, the Oracle did not miff a prediction. It is one of the principles this strip is based on that the Oracle is right.

Now we can argue that our author was less than perfect in showing the fulfillment of the prophecy, but what we say was what was intended as the fulfillment. Any technical errors are not the fault of the Oracle.

Trickywiggy

2009-06-25, 01:54 AM

I can see it going both ways. I mean if he story takes a twist where gets it through other means and it is done cleverly, awesome.

However if this was the ultimate arcane power the Oracle spoke of, it serves a perfect story device that lead to my fvorite story arc of the entire collection, awesome.

Elemental_Elf

2009-06-25, 01:56 AM

Now we can argue that our author was less than perfect in showing the fulfillment of the prophecy, but what we say was what was intended as the fulfillment. Any technical errors are not the fault of the Oracle.

i.e. it's the fault of our interpretation of-, and resulting expectations for, the Oracle's prophesy.

Moriarty

2009-06-25, 03:24 AM

Ron Miel

2009-06-25, 03:26 AM

Ultimate arcane power: Seriously. He killed 1/4 of all the Black Dragons. And Xykon's whole speech was just because you have one kind of power, doesn't mean you are perfect. That was the whole point!

I don't think so. The point was that if you use somebody else's power then you never really had power. Any power you have must be earned and there are no short cuts.

I say that V has not gained power yet

Thanatosia

2009-06-25, 03:40 AM

actually when answering "by saying the right for wourds ..." does it really have to mean the four words are the reason for achieving power?

it could also just mean that V says these four words while achieving power, which he does by agreeing to the contract
I think the distinction is in the question V asked

He was not asking "Will I obtain Total Ultimate Arcane Power", but "How will I", thus any answer that does not address things that have a Cause-Effect relationship with the TUAP (Total Ultimate Arcane Power) cannot be considered a valid fulfillment of the prophecy in my mind.

Because the 4 words had no relevance on the mechanism through which V gained the soul splice - it could not even be claimed as a signal of acceptance as the Fiends set up a strictly non-verbal mechanism to signal acceptance of the contract, I can only interpret that to either mean that the soul splice was not the TUAP, or that the oracle botched the prophecy; least that's the way I've been looking at it.

rxmd

2009-06-25, 03:40 AM

Ís this the new flavour of "4 Words" thread?

MickJay

2009-06-25, 04:05 AM

Total? Yes - access to all schools of magic, all arcane spells; no limitation with preparing spell slots. Fits definition of "totality" (encompassing whole) quite nicely.

Ultimate? Yes - greatest power Vaarsuvius will ever achieve? Almost certainly. By asking the question in a specific way, Vaarsuvius effectively limited the answers Oracle could give. V achieved his ultimate power, which also happened to be total. V did not ask if he would achieve the ultimate arcane power (and he did not).

On the other hand, what he got from devils was also based on what he imagined the power would be. He didn't ask for invincibility; he asked for power to protect his family and in the end he got something that fitted what he imagined a UAP would be.

slayerx

2009-06-25, 04:10 AM

He could have just made the contract verbal and have V say "I accept the contract."

This however would ignore the power behind the statement "i... i must Succeed"... it wasn't just illustrating that V was accepting the contract, but that he was doing it for the wrong reasons... without that line we can not be certain of what V was thinking and he might have been taking on the power for the right reasons...

I see it that "ultimate" may have two meanings.
First it might mean "ultimate forever, everywhere", basicly more arcane power than ANYONE, ANYWHERE, EVER had. I doubt the splice was that powerful. But then again, maybe with all 3 together it really was.

I don't see why you would doubt it...
i mean, most wizards would spend a life time just to gain enough exp to become epic level... was nearly 4 times higher than that

furtharmore, unlike other specialized wizards, under the splice, V no longer had any banned schools and therefore had access to spells from EVERY school... also unlike wizards, he was able to cast his spells as he pleased and did not need to prepare ahead of time... and unlike the common sorcerer, V was not limited to only a relatively small number of known spells and was able to call forth any spell within the knowledge of all the souls... really how much more powerful could it have gotten?

i might question it when we talk about immortals (though dieties probably would not count as they are divine, and not arcane), but it's pretty safe to say that no wizard or sorcerer has ever held that kind of power... especially since it involves a perfect combination of the two classes which i think is impossible to have... though not sure when it comes to multi-classing, though i assume the spells for your sorcerer half and the ones for the wizard half would be treated differently since they are casted and memorized differently... not sure, never heard of someone trying to mult-iclass wizard and sorcerer together

Morquard

2009-06-25, 04:43 AM

I don't see why you would doubt it...
i mean, most wizards would spend a life time just to gain enough exp to become epic level... was nearly 4 times higher than that
Oh I'm not saying V didn't have tons of power. I don't think however you can just add the levels together, there's gonna be lots of stuff that all 4 can do.
Also V is nowhere near epic yet.
Effective level was probably in the 30s, maybe 40s, but nowhere near 80.

furtharmore, unlike other specialized wizards, under the splice, V no longer had any banned schools and therefore had access to spells from EVERY school... also unlike wizards, he was able to cast his spells as he pleased and did not need to prepare ahead of time... and unlike the common sorcerer, V was not limited to only a relatively small number of known spells and was able to call forth any spell within the knowledge of all the souls... really how much more powerful could it have gotten?
I don't think thats how the splice works.
Yeah technically he has no banned schools anymore, I can't argue that. But I think wizards aren't force to specialize, so there are others that can cast stuff from every school too. (might be wrong, but in any case, not really disagreeing with you on this one)

But no, he can't just cast stuff as he likes. Ganonron is a wizard and has to prepare spells just like V has. Haetra was most likely one too. They all had to prepare spells.
Sure due the triple amount of spell slots he can memorize a whole lot more spells, and is alot more flexible.
Jephton on the other hand is a sorcerer. He doesn't have to prepare slots, but he only has a limited portfolio of spells. He can't just go and instant-cast a spell from Ganonron's spellbook that he doesn't know himself.

I don't know how much more powerful you can get. And maybe you're right, maybe no caster before him has wielded that kind of power.
But "EVER" means "ever, before and after till the end of time". So what prevents the fiends to splice the same 3 souls + 1 more to some caster next time?
Voila a new caster thats more powerful than V, if just by a bit.

i might question it when we talk about immortals (though dieties probably would not count as they are divine, and not arcane), but it's pretty safe to say that no wizard or sorcerer has ever held that kind of power... especially since it involves a perfect combination of the two classes which i think is impossible to have... though not sure when it comes to multi-classing, though i assume the spells for your sorcerer half and the ones for the wizard half would be treated differently since they are casted and memorized differently... not sure, never heard of someone trying to mult-iclass wizard and sorcerer together
See above :)
And I also don't think multiclassing Sorcerer and Wizards is a smart combo. It doesn't turn your Wizard into an instant-casting caster, nor your sorcerer into a "i have a spellbook so i know all spells now" caster.
I'm pretty sure that if for example someone multiclasses a level 1 wizard with a level 1 sorcerer (to keep it simple), they'll end up with a character that has 4 1st level spellslots (1 from wiz, 3 from sorc), of which he can use three to spontanously cast from a portfolio of 2 spells (2 is all he knows as sorcerer), while the last one has to be prepared with any spell from the spellbook.

He can't just go and cast any spell from the book at any time. Otherwise I guess many wizards would get a level of sorcerer to become instant casters ;)

Iranon

2009-06-25, 04:43 AM

If the deal with the fiends was indeed meant to fulfill the prophecy, the whole orb thing would come across as very jarring. The prophecy having been written a long time before the fact nonwithstanding, the giant went out of his way to make the acceptance of the offer nonverbal.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-25, 04:49 AM

I'm still in the camp (dwindling though it seems) that says the four words were spoken, much earlier, to Kubota. "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."

"I... I must succeed" seem to me very irrelevant to V getting the power, despite the argument that he MUST say them to convince *himself*. At that point every defender of these words seems to be bending over backwards with flimsy explanations. How are the "right 4 words"? If he had not stuttered, and therefore they had been 3 word, would they have somehow been wrong?

If the prophecy was "four words to *a* person" then I might agree. But they must be the *right* words to the *right* person. The prophecy seems to indicates that the words will have been chosen correctly, and that the person they're spoken to will be the correct person to receive them -- just that V will be doing it for the wrong reason.

Those criteria are satisfied with Kubota -- V chose four very efficient words to get rid of Kubota, and Kubota very much deserved them. It was just that V was doing it for all the wrong reasons: sheer impatience, not the greater good.

joeaverage

2009-06-25, 04:54 AM

It's not a real prophecy unless there's at least 5 ways to interpret it.

Jair Barik

2009-06-25, 04:59 AM

Kilremgor

2009-06-25, 05:00 AM

As for ultimate power, well, it wasn't ultimate since all the evidence points to:
1) it was not truly his power at all; spells cast by spliced souls used spell slots different from his own, used souls' appropriate modifiers and caster levels, etc.
2) it wasn't an ultimate power, it was merely a sum of some mid (or high)-epic wizards. And just using several powerful entities together doesn't make up ultimate power.

Overall, a thought experiment: would V get much more stronger if instead of becoming (ECL-80 or alike) spliced being (s)he got to be a singular entity with ECL of 80, no splice, just through own power or true control over something really ultimate? Of course! Just think how higher hir HP, stats, saving throws, caster level, epic feat selection and everything else would've been. He would've likely laughed at Superb Dispeling attempts (getting DC around 90!).

Anyway, what he got couldn't have been truly Ultimate Arcane Power. It could've still somehow get used for Oracle prophecy in this form (seeing how wildly they can get interpreted), but it doesn't make it ultimate.

Nerdanel

2009-06-25, 05:06 AM

I don't see why you would doubt it...
i mean, most wizards would spend a life time just to gain enough exp to become epic level... was nearly 4 times higher than that

furtharmore, unlike other specialized wizards, under the splice, V no longer had any banned schools and therefore had access to spells from EVERY school... also unlike wizards, he was able to cast his spells as he pleased and did not need to prepare ahead of time... and unlike the common sorcerer, V was not limited to only a relatively small number of known spells and was able to call forth any spell within the knowledge of all the souls... really how much more powerful could it have gotten?

V had a serious lack of synergy going on with the splice. He was essentially four different spellcasters in one body and the actions per turn of one person. With Jephton's splice he could cast unprepared spells, but only with those spells on Jephton's spell list, and he couldn't quicken them because Jephton was a sorcerer, even though other members of the splice had the Quicken feat. And so on.

Essentially V had turned himself into an Evoker/Conjurer/Necromancer/Sorcerer multiclass with a sky-high combined level but much less actual power than you might think. The first rule of playing effective casters: Every level taken must increase casting, and that is the same casting every level. A mystic theurge like Tsukiko is underpowered, but she's far more optimized for her CR than spliced V was. At least Tsukiko had the sense to take a dual-progression prestige class to compliment her Wizard/Cleric levels instead of starting new progressions in Sorcerer and Favored Soul.

Also, even though V might have beated Xykon with sufficient preparation, Xykon was obviously a worthy opponent to him. Undeath removes the lifetime requirements of gathering XP from the picture. As Xykon is not that old as a lich, there may be other undead or otherwise immortal casters far more powerful than he is, especially if you go outside of the OOTS planet.

i might question it when we talk about immortals (though dieties probably would not count as they are divine, and not arcane), but it's pretty safe to say that no wizard or sorcerer has ever held that kind of power... especially since it involves a perfect combination of the two classes which i think is impossible to have... though not sure when it comes to multi-classing, though i assume the spells for your sorcerer half and the ones for the wizard half would be treated differently since they are casted and memorized differently... not sure, never heard of someone trying to mult-iclass wizard and sorcerer together

People don't multiclass wizard and sorcerer because it's such a bad idea, even with the Ultimate Magus prestige class. V didn't even have that prestige class. It's not a perfect but ineffectual combination. If V had been a non-specialized wizard with all the combined levels of the splice he would have been far more powerful. For one thing, he wouldn't have needed to take Epic Spellcasting separately for every splice. For another, he could have taken many more epic feats altogether, as every level beyond the first 20 would have qualified as epic, instead of every first level beoynd the first 20... of a particular splice. If V was level 14, that means 54 non-epic levels transformed to epic, and some 34 powerful epic feats from those levels. That version of V could cast auto-quickened, auto-stilled, auto-silenced 9th level spells without material components and still have plenty of epic feats left for other things, such as taking multiple Multispell feats, allowing more than one quickened spell per round.

Meaning he could freely cast spells when paralyzed, for example.

Xapi

2009-06-25, 06:19 AM

I happen to believe the prophecy has been fulllfilled by the splicing.

Any amount of power V is ever likely to achieve will be nothing compared to what she just had.

However, one thing makes me doubt.

If the prophecy had been fulfilled, why hasn't the Giant come into the forum to say "It has been fulfilled so cut it out" to stop all the ranting?

This discussion is clogging up just too much forum space, and it would be resolved by him saying "Hey, dumb*sses, I put 'The wrong Reasons' in the frickin' title, what the Hell more do you want?", but in a classy way as the Giant always does.

factotum

2009-06-25, 06:33 AM

If the prophecy had been fulfilled, why hasn't the Giant come into the forum to say "It has been fulfilled so cut it out" to stop all the ranting?

Why should the Giant care about the ranting? There are plenty of other discussions on these boards, many of which get quite heated, that could be solved in a second if the Giant stepped in and said, "This is how it is"...he hardly ever does that, though, and I don't blame him. You'd be sure that somebody or other would continue to argue the toss even with Word of God against them, anyway.

theinsulabot

2009-06-25, 07:22 AM

If the prophecy had been fulfilled, why hasn't the Giant come into the forum to say "It has been fulfilled so cut it out" to stop all the ranting?

This discussion is clogging up just too much forum space, and it would be resolved by him saying "Hey, dumb*sses, I put 'The wrong Reasons' in the frickin' title, what the Hell more do you want?", but in a classy way as the Giant always does.

he never does. ever. the forums are for discussion and is policy is pretty much never intercede on one side or the other of an argument, rvrn if he knows the answer

Fayd

2009-06-25, 07:41 AM

SadisticFishing

2009-06-25, 07:55 AM

No, magic. Prophecies tend to be... controllable, in a twisted way.

factotum

2009-06-25, 08:35 AM

Why do we assume the oracle is right at all anyway? That implies a linear chain of events that free will cannot change. (True enough for webcomic characters, but you get where I'm going).

We assume that because he's proven to be 100% accurate so far on those prophecies that have been fulfilled...he even knew to the exact moment when he would be killed by Belkar, so the Lizard Twins could teleport in and resurrect him.

MickJay

2009-06-25, 08:42 AM

Why do we assume the oracle is right at all anyway? That implies a linear chain of events that free will cannot change. (True enough for webcomic characters, but you get where I'm going).

It means basically that the future has already happened. What will be will be certainly, there's no changing it. Character choices aren't choices anymore.

That, and I find that half of prophecies I see end up fulfilling themselves because they were made. Even happened to our oracle (Belkar's prophecy).

If the Oracle isn't right, then it isn't an Oracle. Concepts of free will and such are nice, but most myths and legends that deal with predictions are quite clear about the inevitability of fate (the best once can do is to make sure the prophecy is fulfilled literally, but not in the most obvious fashion, but such attempts, too, often fail).

IRL, free will appears to be in many cases an illusion as well: decisions are made first, based on automatic responses of the brain to stimuli, before conscious analysis even begins (when it finally kicks in, the consciousness merely provides rationalisations for the previously made decision). Longer deliberation can, perhaps, allow for some degree of free will, but then again, it can be seen as simply a longer process in which all the past experiences are brought to determine the final decision. Apparently the best one can do is to try and condition oneself to make decisions that fall into a general pattern recognized as most desirable (but, again, the shape of that pattern is predetermined by earlier experiences). Perceived existence of "free will" may just be an additional effect of a developed intelligence, perhaps a form of safeguard or a protective mechanism.

Self-fulfilling prophecies are fun, too, but that doesn't make them any less valid. It's your own fault you asked the question in the first place :smalltongue:

Mant

2009-06-25, 08:42 AM

{Scrubbed}

Optimystik

2009-06-25, 08:45 AM

Ah, a 4 words thread. And here I thought the week would end first.

(In before Kish)

Dinvan

2009-06-25, 09:58 AM

{Scrubbed}

False in your opinion.

I tend to think V has not attained ultimate arcane power. She/he is only a level 14 ish wizard. The fact she had a couple of epic spell casters spell-o-taped on (hehe), to me at least, does not equal "ultimate" arcane power.

I personally think its a decoy by the giant. Only time (and the giant) will tell.

Kalbron

2009-06-25, 10:05 AM

Can we just say that it's happened and move on? No? Well how about this theory then?

The Prophecy has come true. V asked "how" he would achieve Ultimate Arcane Power. V did not ask "when" he would achieve it. Ergo, we can assume that because of the prophecised "how" V will now live long enough on the correct path to achieve the Ultimate Arcane Power he desired at a later "when".

It fits many of the complaints, so maybe this will be the end of the matter the merry-go-round will continue.

Skorj

2009-06-25, 10:20 AM

Wow, here we have clear evidence of how good the recent cliffhanger comics were: we wents weeks without a "four words" thread! :smallbiggrin:

V's lesson, aesop version: "You had ultimate arcane power? So what - I have friends, and the power of friendship defeats all."
V's lesson, powergamer version: "properly deployed, combined arms will defeat even the most powerful artillery".
V's lesson, MMO version: "sorry, we already have all the DPS we need, just waiting on the tank and healer".
V's lesson, tabletop version: "build optimization is less important than friends willing to game with you, so don't be a jerk".

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-25, 10:21 AM

I tend to think V has not attained ultimate arcane power. She/he is only a level 14 ish wizard. The fact she had a couple of epic spell casters spell-o-taped on (hehe), to me at least, does not equal "ultimate" arcane power.

I think some people don't know what ultimate means. It doesn't mean "the highest possible" it just means "the highest". One of the fiends clearly states that "The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster that has ever lived."

In other words, under the splice, V had more arcane power than any figure in history. That is "ultimate power" by the very definition of the word "ultimate". More than anyone else. Ultimate.

That is not to say that V could not someday wield even more power (likely due to some interaction with the gates); that is clearly a possible storyline having little or nothing to do with the prophecy, even if the events leading up to that event mirror the conditions of the prophecy again. Hey, that's a possible, maybe even a likely desire of the IFCC: when V is near the gates, they may cash in their marker and try and sieze the power of the snarl and upset the cosmic balance.

That doesn't alter the fact that the conditions of the prophecy have clearly and evidently been fullfilled.

Finwe

2009-06-25, 10:49 AM

Rotipher

2009-06-25, 10:57 AM

actually when answering "by saying the right for wourds ..." does it really have to mean the four words are the reason for achieving power?

it could also just mean that V says these four words while achieving power, which he does by agreeing to the contract

Exactly. V didn't ask ''Why will I attain power?", ve asked "How" ve would do so. The "four words" answer accurately describes the situation in which the power would be gained; indeed, it's a lot more descriptive than Haley's "gift horse" answer, which nobody is disputing AFAIK.

Xapi

2009-06-25, 10:58 AM

he never does. ever. the forums are for discussion and is policy is pretty much never intercede on one side or the other of an argument, rvrn if he knows the answer

He has when he wanted to.

He doesn't get into rules discussion because plot/funny trumps rules, but he has given his view on things when he felt he needed to, or wasn't giving too much away.

Of course, he won't get into the most heated debates (What is the MitD? or What is V's gender?) because he wants to mantain the ambiguity on those subjects.

My point is that, after the prophecy is fulfilled, he'd have no problem to say, OK, it has been fulfilled, get it over with. There should be no ambiguity to mantain. Yet, he hasn't said anything despite the neverending debates.

So, either he really doesn't care, or the prophecy is not fulfilled.

I don't discard the idea that he doesn't care or that he wont meddle, but I wouldn't say it's certain.

Jair Barik

2009-06-25, 10:58 AM

How about this. The Oracle's prophecies are based upon the assumption that following expected trends the prophecy will be achieved. The prophecy is not made by the Oracle but given to the Oracle on the basis that this is the only answer to the given question that will correctly resolve itself once the answer has been given e.g. Belkar would have killed the Oracle straight away if the answer had been no just to prove him wrong. The Oracle is not Omniscient and only knows the future after making a prediction. This means that he doesn't realise the effects of dismissing Roy but can predict "when will I die"

Sound about right?

Rotipher

2009-06-25, 11:02 AM

My point is that, after the prophecy is fulfilled, he'd have no problem to say, OK, it has been fulfilled, get it over with. There should be no ambiguity to mantain. Yet, he hasn't said anything despite the neverending debates.

So, either he really doesn't care, or the prophecy is not fulfilled.

Or he's planning to include that confirmation in the next OotS book's prologue, to ensure those of us who just can't accept a "The Wrong Reasons" title as sufficient proof will be forced to buy it. :smallwink:

Xapi

2009-06-25, 11:05 AM

Or he's planning to include that confirmation in the next OotS book's prologue, to ensure those of us who just can't accept a "The Wrong Reasons" title as sufficient proof will be forced to buy it. :smallwink:

Hah! That's a good reason too.

spargel

2009-06-25, 11:15 AM

This however would ignore the power behind the statement "i... i must Succeed"... it wasn't just illustrating that V was accepting the contract, but that he was doing it for the wrong reasons... without that line we can not be certain of what V was thinking and he might have been taking on the power for the right reasons...

It's pretty easy to see what V was thinking from her facial expressions and the fiends' words. The only way those four words could have been the right words was if they convinced V to go with the contract.

Kish

2009-06-25, 11:16 AM

"I... I must succeed" seem to me very irrelevant to V getting the power, despite the argument that he MUST say them to convince *himself*. At that point every defender of these words seems to be bending over backwards with flimsy explanations. How are the "right 4 words"? If he had not stuttered, and therefore they had been 3 word, would they have somehow been wrong?
Stuttered? "..." is not "--". If Vaarsuvius had not hesitated after the first word, his/her mood in saying the words would have been (dramatically) different.

Blackjackg

2009-06-25, 11:19 AM

I think we can cut Mr. Burlew a little slack, being as the prophecy scene was written years before the event.

This.

Here's a thought: is it possible that "the right being" is... himself? (or herself? For the sake of brevity, I'll use male pronouns for the rest of this thought.) Vaarsuvius wasn't saying those four words to the fiends, he was saying them to himself, convincing himself to take the deal. If he hadn't said that to himself, he wouldn't have touched the right orb, and wouldn't have gained arcane power.

Optimystik

2009-06-25, 11:41 AM

Stuttered? "..." is not "--". If Vaarsuvius had not hesitated after the first word, his/her mood in saying the words would have been (dramatically) different.

Howdy. :smallwink:

It's pretty easy to see what V was thinking from her facial expressions and the fiends' words. The only way those four words could have been the right words was if they convinced V to go with the contract.

Exactly, and they did.

He had to talk himself into doing it; that was his mental state at the time.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-25, 02:07 PM

The words "gust of wind" were not said to anyone, as Kubota ceased to be after being disintegrated..

The prophecy never said he had to say the words to the right *living* person.

For the purposes of the Mark of Justice, Belkar attempted to stay within the radius of Roy's body. It seems bodies count. Or atleast it's not out of the question that bodies count.

Ergo, that theory must be false.

It must be so very nice, being so certain, all the time.

Let's just say that I doubt that I'll convince you, and you'll certainly never convince me, not if that's the whole of your argument.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-25, 02:19 PM

Stuttered? "..." is not "--". If Vaarsuvius had not hesitated after the first word, his/her mood in saying the words would have been (dramatically) different.

So, if his mood had been different, he'd not have achieved ultimate arcane power? Or if he had said, "I.. I must not fail", which would be 5 words?

I just don't see how they're the "right" four words, not if they weren't chosen by him, and not if they don't have a particular effect that a different variation of them wouldn't also have.

They're just words. Nothing right or wrong about them, nothing that he couldn't express in a million different ways -- unlike spellcasting even their phrasing is arbitary. They indicate what he was feeling, but they didn't even give him the power, touching the orb did.

I don't expect to convince you. Many people from the beginning seemed to want the ultimate arcane power to come in the very same strip that V would utter the words -- though the fulfillment of Haley's prophecy came lots of strips after she refused to look a gift horse in the mouth.

So it was inevitable that many people would see the words V uttered JUST BEFORE she got the power as the four words in question - and refuse to consider alternatives.

I'm guessing eventually we'll find out. I'm guessing it will be in the strip if my own interpretation is correct, or some Word of God if yours is.

SadisticFishing

2009-06-25, 02:22 PM

Crap. I totally understand his point, but that WAS Ultimate Arcane Power.

Optimystik

2009-06-25, 02:27 PM

So, if his mood had been different, he'd not have achieved ultimate arcane power? Or if he had said, "I.. I must not fail", which would be 5 words?

His mood wasn't different, and he didn't say 5 words, he said 4.

I just don't see how they're the "right" four words, not if they weren't chosen by him, and not if they don't have a particular effect that a different variation of them wouldn't also have.

He did choose them, and all that was mentioned was the number, not the "variation" (whatever that even means.)

They're just words. Nothing right or wrong about them, nothing that he couldn't express in a million different ways -- unlike spellcasting even their phrasing is arbitary. They indicate what he was feeling, but they didn't even give him the power, touching the orb did.

He wouldn't have touched it (after the Fiends' exhortation) without first talking himself into it.

I don't expect to convince you. Many people from the beginning seemed to want the ultimate arcane power to come in the very same strip that V would utter the words -- though the fulfillment of Haley's prophecy came lots of strips after she refused to look a gift horse in the mouth.

So it was inevitable that many people would see the words V uttered JUST BEFORE she got the power as the four words in question - and refuse to consider alternatives.

We would consider alternatives, if they made sense.

"Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." weren't said TO anyone, because they were the verbal components of two spells. He couldn't even have been talking to himself.
Likewise for "Expeditious Retreat! Expeditious Retreat!"
And so on.

I'm guessing eventually we'll find out. I'm guessing it will be in the strip if my own interpretation is correct, or some Word of God if yours is.

It WAS in the strip. It was even in the title!

spargel

2009-06-25, 02:32 PM

Exactly, and they did.

He had to talk himself into doing it; that was his mental state at the time.

I find that possible, but realistically unlikely.

DBJack

2009-06-25, 03:05 PM

No, no, no, I'm pretty sure the whole point of 'ultimate arcane power' was so that Xykon could slip on and tell the audience, 'hey, you know what? It's not about being able to cast the most spells, or the best ones. Power is power.'

V got one type of power, and the most powerful at that specific type of power, as the fiends stated during the deal (dwarf any previous caster and all that), but as Xykon said while V was looting Jirix's corpse, just because you master, or sell yourself for, one kind of power doesn't mean you are powerful.

V should have asked 'how may I become the most powerful arcane spellcaster?' or 'How will I become the most powerful mortal on this place of existance?' etc...

But instead, V asked how to master one type of power.

Now, if the prediction is later fufilled, if V comes and and says 'haha that earlier strip title was just to confuddle you, now I have true arcane power, the real 4 words are this: ...'

wouldn't that be a cop-out? Wouldn't Xykon's speech about the manifestation of power be for nothing? That was the giant telling the audience, 'look, it doesn't matter if you are a high levelled spell caster with powerful spells if you don't have power.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-25, 03:13 PM

He did choose them,

So, he deliberately spoke "I" two times? He deliberately said "I... I must succeed" instead of "I...I must not fail"?

and all that was mentioned was the number, not the "variation" (whatever that even means.)

Yes, the words were all that were mentioned. One would think that same as Haley's choice, it would be words actually chosen by V. And that the decision would be right (the "right" words) and that they would be directed to the "right" person, but that it would be a decision made for wrong reasons.

Please, consider it backwards. Imagine you know of no prophecy. But you know all the events that will take place. And imagine someone asked you "how will V achieve ultimate arcane power".

You would NEVER choose his saying "I... I must succeed" as the HOW of that question. You might very well have said perhaps "picking the right color for all the wrong reasons". But the words? You would have never chosen the words. And you would have never said things like "the right four words to the right person", if it's about someone convincing himself.

But if you decided that Kubota's killing was the crucial juncture point then, "saying the right four words to the right person for all the wrong reasons" perfectly describes what happened there.

You would have never chosen "I... I must succeed" as the crucial point. NEVER. And yet you're arguing that the Oracle (and the Giant) did. That they considered the words "I... I must succeed" more important than V touching the orbs, and more important that V asking the imp to send the application.

"Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." weren't said TO anyone, because they were the verbal components of two spells.

So your argument is that they aren't said TO their target, they're said AT their target?

Yeah, let's just say that I don't care about the distinction between TO and AT.

Optimystik

2009-06-25, 04:16 PM

So, he deliberately spoke "I" two times? He deliberately said "I... I must succeed" instead of "I...I must not fail"?

Of course he deliberately chose those words. He was convincing himself to do something that he had severe doubts about doing.

Yes, the words were all that were mentioned. One would think that same as Haley's choice, it would be words actually chosen by V. And that the decision would be right (the "right" words) and that they would be directed to the "right" person, but that it would be a decision made for wrong reasons.

Please, consider it backwards. Imagine you know of no prophecy. But you know all the events that will take place. And imagine someone asked you "how will V achieve ultimate arcane power".

You would NEVER choose his saying "I... I must succeed" as the HOW of that question. You might very well have said perhaps "picking the right color for all the wrong reasons". But the words? You would have never chosen the words. And you would have never said things like "the right four words to the right person", if it's about someone convincing himself.

But if you decided that Kubota's killing was the crucial juncture point then, "saying the right four words to the right person for all the wrong reasons" perfectly describes what happened there.

You would have never chosen "I... I must succeed" as the crucial point. NEVER. And yet you're arguing that the Oracle (and the Giant) did. That they considered the words "I... I must succeed" more important than V touching the orbs, and more important that V asking the imp to send the application.

First off, you shouldn't be telling other people what they would NEVER choose. Especially since you're wrong in this instance - yes, he got the power after the physical act of touching the orb, but he wouldn't have touched that orb without talking himself into it. So I WOULD have chosen the words as the instigator.

Second, he had the right reasons for killing Kubota. He might have arrived at his conclusion through a dangerous leap of logic (that Kubota was a villain simply because Elan had tied him up) but it was the right conclusion, because Kubota WAS a villain. Therefore, the prophecy is invalidated on two fronts here.

So your argument is that they aren't said TO their target, they're said AT their target?

Yeah, let's just say that I don't care about the distinction between TO and AT.

They aren't said TO anyone, AT anyone, ADDRESSING anyone or whatever variation you choose to come up with. They're magic words. "A verbal component is a spoken incantation" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) - that's it. Your argument is like saying that a magician says "Abra Cadabra!" to a specific person in the audience. It's just something you say out loud.

theinsulabot

2009-06-25, 04:26 PM

havent we danced this waltz before?

Snails

2009-06-25, 04:45 PM

I am completely confident that, if asked, V. would agree he experienced ultimate arcane power and that the conditions laid out in the Oracle's prediction were adequately fulfilled.

Whether you or I would agree the conditions were fulfilled to the letter (if V. were our wizard PC) is pretty much irrelevant to the question of whether the Oracle hit the mark.

Nerdanel

2009-06-25, 04:56 PM

V may have had a very high CR but he wasn't as powerful as that would imply due to a severe lack of synergy between his abilities. If he had went against something powerful enough for him to gain XP from, he would have in all likelihood gotten himself outclassed. V had a huge amount of spells but his actual arcane power was roughly comparable to Xykon.

If spells equalled power sorcerers would be more powerful than wizards since they get more spells, but the matter is not generally considered to be so.

Also, as Xykon said,
a) the power was never really V's own, and
b) surpassing every living caster doesn't necessarily really mean all that much when undead casters also have arcane power.

I think that bit was there to hint that V's total and complete ultimate arcane power is yet to come and something V will achieve for himself by his own effort

Red XIV

2009-06-25, 05:00 PM

V's biggest shortcoming under the splice was his poor use of the power he had.

He certainly could've destroyed Team Evil, if only he'd fought smarter. Getting in his buffs before teleporting in would've been rather helpful, as would not wasting a round on a spell Xykon was immune to.

Random832

2009-06-25, 05:13 PM

By any legitimate measurement of ECL, the spliced souls should have come with some seriously negative LA due to the lack of hit dice, lack of any physical stats, etc.

Sholos

2009-06-25, 05:18 PM

I agree with you, V saying the four words wasn't the deciding factor in weather or not he would gain the arcane power, and i think that Rich may have fooled us so that the REAL four words will catch us unexpectedly.

If the "real" four words are unexpected, I'll be disappointed. This should be something fairly obvious, not something we come back to twenty comics after the fact.

Anyway, if I really wanted to get nit-picky, I'm not sure too many people expected V to say the four words to himself. Seems like Rich already did the most unexpected thing.

Anteros

2009-06-25, 05:26 PM

Ceryan

2009-06-25, 05:41 PM

I think it's less that the prophecy didn't come true and more so that the Oracle's predictions are not 100% accurate.

After all, he did say four words to three beings, and soon after achieved "Ultimate Arcane Power." The exact wording of the prophecy "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons," is open to interpretation. "By" can imply that the words, themselves, incurred the Ultimate Arcane Power, however it could also imply that UAP would simply follow after speaking them. As for "being" being singular, it's close enough. Also, I like the speculation that he said those words to himself.

Red XIV: He had been buffed from the fight with the ABD and was not Time Stopping to do so again; it was more likely to lay down 4 - 10 Delayed Blast Fireballs :smallwink:. In addition, he didn't waste a round casting Chain Lightning; it was Quickened.

Sholos

2009-06-25, 05:50 PM

We will know if its been fulfilled when its blatantly pointed out to us. All the prophechies so far have been made fairly obvious when theyve been resolved, (Belkar, Haley and Roy) with Roy's though not yet resolved it is constantly referred to and leads the story.

I don't see how much more blatant it could have been. Just because people argue about it doesn't mean it wasn't blatant. Heck, there are people who think Belkar is not Chaotic Evil, even though we have Word of God on the issue.

I'm still in the camp (dwindling though it seems) that says the four words were spoken, much earlier, to Kubota. "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."
First off, the only one there that could have been said to Kubota was "disintegrate". Afterwards, there was no Kubota to speak to. Secondly, you don't say the verbal components of a spell "to" anyone. You just say them.

"I... I must succeed" seem to me very irrelevant to V getting the power, despite the argument that he MUST say them to convince *himself*. At that point every defender of these words seems to be bending over backwards with flimsy explanations. How are the "right 4 words"? If he had not stuttered, and therefore they had been 3 word, would they have somehow been wrong?
Thirdly, if "I... I must succeed" is irrelevant, then the two spells are infinitely moreso. Anything could have happened after the spells. Nothing but what happened could have happened after what V said on the island.

And, yes, if V had not repeated the I (note that the two "I"s is not a stutter, but a sign of great hesitation), then it would be very obvious that this wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy. Coincidence? I think not.

If the prophecy was "four words to *a* person" then I might agree. But they must be the *right* words to the *right* person. The prophecy seems to indicates that the words will have been chosen correctly, and that the person they're spoken to will be the correct person to receive them -- just that V will be doing it for the wrong reason.
It doesn't indicate anything of the sort. All it says is that V will say four words to someone. That someone happened to be V (who was not excluded, because V definitely counts as a "person"), and the words were definitely said for the wrong reasons.

Those criteria are satisfied with Kubota -- V chose four very efficient words to get rid of Kubota, and Kubota very much deserved them. It was just that V was doing it for all the wrong reasons: sheer impatience, not the greater good.

Again, V didn't say anything to Kubota. At the very most gracious reasoning, V only said one word. "Disintegrate". After that, there was no Kubota.

So, he deliberately spoke "I" two times? He deliberately said "I... I must succeed" instead of "I...I must not fail"?
Doesn't matter. He spoke four words. That matches the prophecy.

Yes, the words were all that were mentioned. One would think that same as Haley's choice, it would be words actually chosen by V. And that the decision would be right (the "right" words) and that they would be directed to the "right" person, but that it would be a decision made for wrong reasons.
So, you're saying that someone else chose V's words for him? Funny, I thought that he was in perfect control of what he was saying. Also, nothing was said about any decision that V was making, just that V would be doing something for the wrong reasons. And he did.

Please, consider it backwards. Imagine you know of no prophecy. But you know all the events that will take place. And imagine someone asked you "how will V achieve ultimate arcane power".

You would NEVER choose his saying "I... I must succeed" as the HOW of that question. You might very well have said perhaps "picking the right color for all the wrong reasons". But the words? You would have never chosen the words. And you would have never said things like "the right four words to the right person", if it's about someone convincing himself.

But if you decided that Kubota's killing was the crucial juncture point then, "saying the right four words to the right person for all the wrong reasons" perfectly describes what happened there.

You would have never chosen "I... I must succeed" as the crucial point. NEVER. And yet you're arguing that the Oracle (and the Giant) did. That they considered the words "I... I must succeed" more important than V touching the orbs, and more important that V asking the imp to send the application.

First off, as Optimystik noted, you probably shouldn't decide what other people would or would not do. Secondly, just because I might not word something a specific way (not saying I would have worded it differently, especially if I was trying to be cryptic) doesn't mean the Oracle wouldn't. We're two different people; and, as I implied, the Oracle actively tries to be ambiguous with his prophecies.

So your argument is that they aren't said TO their target, they're said AT their target?

Yeah, let's just say that I don't care about the distinction between TO and AT.

You don't care about the distinction between throwing a ball TO someone and throwing a ball AT someone? There's a pretty big difference, and it's vitally important.

MickJay

2009-06-25, 06:18 PM

Ultmate doesn't mean what people here think it means.

Ultimate: Being last in a series, process, or progression

All ultimate means is that it's the strongest V will ever be. Not that he is stronger than Xykon, or anyone else for that matter.

Granted, there are other definitions more in line with other interpretations, but this is the one I believe to be correct in this particular case.

I've made that argument a few times already, but those who think V is going to get some other type of UAP along the way usually just ignore this. It doesn't matter that some of the Oracle's prophecies tend to come true literally, but not necessarily in the way the petitioner expected; it doesn't matter that if we go through the definitions of "total" and "ultimate", it's obvious that the prophecy has already been fulfilled to the letter. V was expecting something else than what he got when he asked his questions, and this discrepancy between expectations and reality seems to have miffed some of his fans who don't want to accept that V won't get even more flashy power :smalltongue:

David Argall

2009-06-25, 08:08 PM

Please, consider it backwards. Imagine you know of no prophecy. But you know all the events that will take place. And imagine someone asked you "how will V achieve ultimate arcane power".

You would NEVER choose his saying "I... I must succeed" as the HOW of that question.
Well, what I would never do is refer to the Kubota killing at all. It was simply a random event of no great weight in how V got his power. If I was the Oracle, I might well think the actual event was poorly covered by the prediction, and instead offer something like "When The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner", a reference to V first rejecting Qarr, and then begging him. But Kubota? It's not 4 words, not said to anybody, not for the wrong reasons, and not the cause of his getting power.

V was expecting something else than what he got when he asked his questions, and this discrepancy between expectations and reality seems to have miffed some of his fans who don't want to accept that V won't get even more flashy power

This is a different issue. The objections to the fiends' offer being the cumulation to the prediction started well before we found out just what V's powers were, and had reason to deem them distinctly less than promised by the fiends. The fulfillment simply was not one of our author's better efforts, and many felt such so-so effort could not be the real thing.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-25, 08:16 PM

First off, you shouldn't be telling other people what they would NEVER choose. Especially since you're wrong in this instance - yes, he got the power after the physical act of touching the orb, but he wouldn't have touched that orb without talking himself into it. So I WOULD have chosen the words as the instigator.

No, I think you're just deluding yourself. I think you'd barely have remembered what words he'd spoken before touching the orbs, if it hadn't been for the prophecy -- and certainly I very much doubt you'd have called those words the defining element of that scene. I COMPLETELY disbelieve you'd have called it the "right four words to the right person for all the wrong reasons".

Second, he had the right reasons for killing Kubota.

No, his reason was sheer impatience. V didn't want to wait for a trial -- he didn't even want to wait for the few round it would take to make sure Kubota was a villain by merely asking Elan about it.

They aren't said TO anyone, AT anyone, ADDRESSING anyone or whatever variation you choose to come up with. They're magic words.

Strangely enough at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html Redcloak actually seems to be speaking words at Miko, when he's casting spells at her, and that's how he's describing them.

It doesn't indicate anything of the sort. All it says is that V will say four words to someone.

No, it says that they will be the *right* four words to the *right* someone.
That you felt the need to remove the words "right" illustrates my point.

I don't see how V's words "I.. I must succeed" were right in any way. They indicate a self-centeredness. If anything they can be said to illustrate the wrong reasons, but they don't illustrate something that's right. If they illustrate the wrongness, then they're the wrong words.

That matches the prophecy.

Yes, it matches it in the same way that some people "match" Nostradamus prophecies after the fact. It matches it in the sense that someone *wanting* to match it can find a vague far-fetched way to do so.

It doesn't however match it in the sense that someone that actually foresaw the event would have described it like that. It doesn't match it as a genuine prophecy. It matches it like a phony.

And in the end, my argument depends on the idea that the words "right" and "wrong" in the prophecy still have meaning. You're gonna argue that he spoke the four right words to *himself* as the right person? If he was monologuing then what sort of choice was that, to speak to himself?

Was there any possibility that he'd choose to monologue to the *wrong* person?

No, you just ignore the issue of him addressing the words to the "right" person. You ignore the issue of them being the *right* words for all the wrong *reasons*. You merely repeat that they are four words. And yes you have the wrong reasons alright -- But you only have that. Neither *right* words, nor *right* person. You only have the wrong reasons. And the number four.

Your arguments against being Kubota may very well be valid. Perhaps he's not the fulfillment either. But your objections to that are so technical (supposedly "verbal components to spells are not spoken *to* their targets") that I dismiss them as utterly uninteresting and irrelevant. While my own objections are moral -- the utter disregard of the issue of "right person" and "right words" in the "I... I must succeed".

"I don't see how much more blatant it could have been. "

Well, let's see -- the words could have been "right" ones. Same as Disintegrate.Gust of Wind. were right ones in the sense that they served the Greater Good. V's words were the wrong ones, in the sense that they served his self-centeredness.

The person they were spoken to could have been the "right" one in any sense. When you're monologuing, you can only be speaking to one person, so issue of rightness is moot there. On the other hand, when you're executing someone, the guy may deserve it or not, therefore the case of rightness and wrongness is very significant.

So in short, I'm certainly hoping for something of the moral confusion of Kubota's killing, (right words, right person, wrong reasons) not the mere wrong-reasons of his deal with the fiends.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-25, 08:26 PM

It was simply a random event of no great weight in how V got his power.

It was the final action that caused V to separate from Elan and Durkon. Which directly led to the dragon's attack, and V's later inability to communicate with his master via Durkon's Sending.

And ofcourse it was the action that led Qarr to seek out V.

It's not 4 words,

And "Sneak Attack" is not two words?

not said to anybody, not for the wrong reasons, and not the cause of his getting power.

Definitely for the wrong reasons. The comic spent a whole strip detailing all the wrong reasons V had to kill Kubota. I guess some people can't see wrong reasons unless the comic is actually titled "wrong reasons".

And it definitely was the indirect cause of his getting power, atleast as much as Haley's not looking a gift horse in the mouth.

The fulfillment simply was not one of our author's better efforts, and many felt such so-so effort could not be the real thing.

I find the Kubota fulfillment an absolutely wonderful one -- it's even more wonderful how our author is trying to mislead you all by adding some nonsensical four words at the very last panel before V gets the power too.

galdon

2009-06-25, 10:28 PM

So, he deliberately spoke "I" two times? He deliberately said "I... I must succeed" instead of "I...I must not fail"?

The oracle is not known for being super helpful with his prophecies, they are simply ACCURATE. That is all. If V was going to say 'i...i must not fail' then the oracle would have said five words during the prophecy. It does not matter why V said those particular four words rather than a million paraphrases, but the prophecy predicted that those four words would be said; even if V did not know what those words were.

This whole thing of 'did v really get ultimate arcane power' 'were those really the four words' is really getting old. There is no evidence of this not being it. V says four words in a comic specifically named "the wrong reasons" then accepts the deal to get massive power from all arcane schools, reaching an effective caster level so great that killing an entire extended family tree of black dragons didn't even break a sweat or level him up (as i recall they have a little effect that pops by their head then they notice they leveled up)

To the very letter it fulfills the prophecy. nitpicking over weather it was ultimate enough doesn't matter, we're talking about a guy who predicted that Xycon was in his thone room for crying out loud!

Optimystik

2009-06-25, 10:28 PM

Strangely enough at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html Redcloak actually seems to be speaking words at Miko, when he's casting spells at her, and that's how he's describing them.

"I have a few more choice words." He doesn't say "for you" anywhere in there.

And of all the examples you could pick to support your point, clerical magic is the worst. They can only possibly be speaking to their deity, remember? The source of their power?

*snip*

I will not be baited...

Axl_Rose

2009-06-25, 11:40 PM

I'd say Rich would have to be a pretty huge trouser titan for V's prediction to not have been fulfilled back when he traded his soul to the fiends.

factotum

2009-06-26, 01:45 AM

I think that bit was there to hint that V's total and complete ultimate arcane power is yet to come and something V will achieve for himself by his own effort

If V were to achieve anything close to the level of power he had while Spliced under his own steam, the strip would be effectively over--he'd steamroller Xykon no trouble. No, V has had his ultimate power, and it turned out that it didn't actually work out that hot for him, which was the whole point: he needed to learn that arcane power alone wasn't going to solve all his problems.

Nimrod's Son

2009-06-26, 01:47 AM

Exactly. V didn't ask ''Why will I attain power?", ve asked "How" ve would do so. The "four words" answer accurately describes the situation in which the power would be gained; indeed, it's a lot more descriptive than Haley's "gift horse" answer, which nobody is disputing AFAIK.
Hey, if Haley getting her voice back had carried with it the unfulfilled promise of TEH BIG ASPLOSIONS then there'd be plenty of malcontents nitpicking at that one, too.

The prophecy never said he had to say the words to the right *living* person.
But they did have to be said to the right being. There is no possible way that a pile of ash could be described as a "being". It's a "used-to-be", at best.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-26, 05:10 AM

It does not matter why V said those particular four words rather than a million paraphrases,

If it does not matter which of a million paraphrase were uttered, then they were not the "right" words, for any meaningful definition of "right".

"but the prophecy predicted that those four words would be said;"

No, the prophecy predicted that *some* four words would be said. And it also predicted that they'd be the *right* four words.

If it doesn't matter which of a million paraphrasins were uttered, then the phrase "right four words" isn't meaningful.

[quote]V says four words in a comic specifically named "the wrong reasons"

Yes, too bad you yourself admit that those words weren't particularly "right". They were merely four.

And "to the right person" are even more meaningless if the words are a monologue. In what way could someone monologue to the wrong person?

MickJay

2009-06-26, 05:22 AM

This is a different issue. The objections to the fiends' offer being the cumulation to the prediction started well before we found out just what V's powers were, and had reason to deem them distinctly less than promised by the fiends. The fulfillment simply was not one of our author's better efforts, and many felt such so-so effort could not be the real thing.

Frankly, I don't see how the fulfillment was supposed to be presented better - any ideas?

This is an open question: what would it take to convince you (you as in the person reading this :smalltongue:) that V achieved UAP? What would he have to do, how would it have to be represented in comic?

Thanatosia

2009-06-26, 05:51 AM

To the very letter it fulfills the prophecy. nitpicking over weather it was ultimate enough doesn't matter, we're talking about a guy who predicted that Xycon was in his thone room for crying out loud!
I think the nature of the UAP and the extent of its 'ultimateness', it is an irrelevant point IMO.

I contend that the prophecy was not fulfilled to the letter because the question asked was "HOW", the oracles response was the 4 words, and although 4 words were spoken, they do not have any cause-effect relationship with what seems to be the UAP, and are completely incidental to how it was obtained.

Imagine if a prophecy said a brown pixie would hand you a gold piece, and then two years down the line a Troll gives you a gold piece while a brown pixie happens to be passing by at the moment - would you consider that a valid fulfilment of the prophecy? I certainly would not. This is the situation I find the 4 words to fall into - they were there, but the prophecy had cast them as the mechanism by which the TUAP would be obtained and the events proved them to be a happenstance of the situation.

Now, I know some say rich should just be cut some slack because the prophecy was writtain so long ago - but the whole blue/red orb thing seems like a completely unnecessarily complex mechanism that seems present only to make sure that no verbal statement - 4 words or otherwise - could be taken as an acceptance of the offer, thus ensuring that the prophecy could not be fulfilled.

One thing did catch my attention reading the responses tho - the theory that the right being was V himself, and that the words were necessary to 'wind himself up' enough to accept the offer is an intriguing point, that I think might indicate the prophecy might have been fulfilled, but i'm not sure I buy the fact that the words were necessary for him to accept it..... I don't think V is one to have to 'think out loud' like that, but I suppose this could be a means by wich the prophecy could have been viewed as fulfilled.

This is an open question: what would it take to convince you (you as in the person reading this ) that V achieved UAP? What would he have to do, how would it have to be represented in comic?
In order for it to be represented in the comic in a way to satisfy me that the prophecy was completed, the 4 words would have been a required part of the acceptance of the Fiends Offer, or in some other way have a direct cause-effect relationship with the gain of the TUAP.

LuisDantas

2009-06-26, 08:51 AM

I think the nature of the UAP and the extent of its 'ultimateness', it is an irrelevant point IMO.

I contend that the prophecy was not fulfilled to the letter because the question asked was "HOW", the oracles response was the 4 words, and although 4 words were spoken, they do not have any cause-effect relationship with what seems to be the UAP, and are completely incidental to how it was obtained.

You are not alone in thinking that way, obviously. Myself, I think that "Disintegrate... Gust of Wind" are a very good fit to the requirements of the Four Words. They are directed to someone who deserved the punishment, for entirely the wrong reasons, and lead directly to the events that made the Soul Splice possible.

As also already noted, they simultaneously make the contact with Qarr and later the IFCC possible.

So they are not only direct cause of the UAP, they are doubly so.

Imagine if a prophecy said a brown pixie would hand you a gold piece, and then two years down the line a Troll gives you a gold piece while a brown pixie happens to be passing by at the moment - would you consider that a valid fulfilment of the prophecy? I certainly would not. This is the situation I find the 4 words to fall into - they were there, but the prophecy had cast them as the mechanism by which the TUAP would be obtained and the events proved them to be a happenstance of the situation.

Why?

Disintegrate + Gust of Wind leads to frustration and falling out with Elan (and later Durkon), then to Vaarsuvius' departure, confrontations with Qarr and the Ancient Black Dragon, deal with the IFCC, and finally the Soul Splice.

Quite direct a path, really.

Now, I know some say rich should just be cut some slack because the prophecy was writtain so long ago - but the whole blue/red orb thing seems like a completely unnecessarily complex mechanism that seems present only to make sure that no verbal statement - 4 words or otherwise - could be taken as an acceptance of the offer, thus ensuring that the prophecy could not be fulfilled.

Actually, I don't think any slack is necessary, nor do I think the orbs have any direct connection to the Four Words. It was just a Matrix reference.

One thing did catch my attention reading the responses tho - the theory that the right being was V himself, and that the words were necessary to 'wind himself up' enough to accept the offer is an intriguing point, that I think might indicate the prophecy might have been fulfilled, but i'm not sure I buy the fact that the words were necessary for him to accept it..... I don't think V is one to have to 'think out loud' like that, but I suppose this could be a means by which the prophecy could have been viewed as fulfilled.

We know from past experiences, most notably Haley's prophecy (but also Belkar's) that the Oracle does not necessarily flag only needed events, only the causes of direct chains of events that lead to the expected results.

In order for it to be represented in the comic in a way to satisfy me that the prophecy was completed, the 4 words would have been a required part of the acceptance of the Fiends Offer, or in some other way have a direct cause-effect relationship with the gain of the TUAP.

Which it does, although perhaps not in such an immediate way as you hoped for.

Optimystik

2009-06-26, 09:06 AM

Frankly, I don't see how the fulfillment was supposed to be presented better - any ideas?

This is an open question: what would it take to convince you (you as in the person reading this :smalltongue:) that V achieved UAP? What would he have to do, how would it have to be represented in comic?

From what I can gather from the "4 words movement," the main points of contention are:

"V hesitated/stuttered and repeated a word! That's only 3!"
"It's not Ultimate Arcane Power if you get your butt kicked! V didn't even get to cast Twinned Empowered Maximized Wish!"
"'Saving your family' isn't the 'Wrong Reasons!' Rich misnamed the comic on purpose to throw us off!"
"V wasn't talking TO anybody! It's impossible for people to talk to themselves!"
"V didn't get the power after saying the words, V got it after touching an orb milliseconds later! The whole prophecy is invalid!"

I may have missed a couple but I honestly don't care. Every one of these "points" has been countered by savvy posters , yet the threads keep coming. We'll have to wait for the next book's commentary to settle it, and even then the threads probably won't stop.

Sholos

2009-06-26, 09:16 AM

From what I can gather from the "4 words movement," the main points of contention are:

"V hesitated/stuttered and repeated a word! That's only 3!"
"It's not Ultimate Arcane Power if you get your butt kicked! V didn't even get to cast Twinned Empowered Maximized Wish!"
"'Saving your family' isn't the 'Wrong Reasons!' Rich misnamed the comic on purpose to throw us off!"
"V wasn't talking TO anybody! It's impossible for people to talk to themselves!"
"V didn't get the power after saying the words, V got it after touching an orb milliseconds later! The whole prophecy is invalid!"

I may have missed a couple but I honestly don't care. Every one of these "points" has been countered by savvy posters , yet the threads keep coming. We'll have to wait for the next book's commentary to settle it, and even then the threads probably won't stop.

Quoted. For. Truth. As Einstein once observed...

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-26, 09:32 AM

From what I can gather from the "4 words movement," the main points of contention are:

You gathered wrongly.

My arguments against these being the "right four words to the right person" are much simpler.
A) Unlike "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" they didn't cause anything by themselves. (arguments that V *needed* to hear them are mere assumptions/projections, nothing indicated by the comic itself)
B) Unlike "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" they weren't "right" in any way, by any meaningful definition of "right".
C) Unlike Kubota, V wasn't the "right person" to speak these words to, by any meaningful definition of "right" either.

The vast majority of people in this thread, the ones supporting the "I... I must succeed" simply utterly ignore the adjective "right" when they make their case. And I agree with you, if that adjective was missing from the prophecy, those words might be the fulfillment, as I'd only have point (A) left. Unfortunately for you I also have points (B) and (C) and together they make a pretty strong case.

Quoted. For. Truth.

It should be the side that makes an argument that calls its summarization accurate and truthful.

I may have missed a couple but I honestly don't care.

And do you think I care about your own self-constructed strawmen? I didn't make a single one of the arguments you mentioned -- you didn't list a single one of the arguments I made.

Every one of these "points" has been countered by savvy posters ,

If only any of those points had actually been made.

SadisticFishing

2009-06-26, 09:36 AM

At the right time? Doesn't seem to fit well, to me.

Moglorosh

2009-06-26, 09:40 AM

The 4 words were: "I cannot fail again".

The being in question? Qaar.

As seen here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html)

Optimystik

2009-06-26, 09:56 AM

Aris, I don't remember mentioning you at all in my post. That you automatically assume I meant you says a lot more about your argument than I ever could.

But since you attempted a rebuttal, I will point this out:

C) Unlike Kubota, V wasn't the "right person" to speak these words to, by any meaningful definition of "right" either.

The vast majority of people in this thread, the ones supporting the "I... I must succeed" simply utterly ignore the adjective "right" when they make their case.

Merely saying V wasn't the right person without any form of support doesn't make it so. Go ahead, convince me.

Sholos

2009-06-26, 10:03 AM

You gathered wrongly.
Um, no, he didn't. He said the "main points". Yours is one I haven't seen before. Almost every other person fits into the categories listed.

My arguments against these being the "right four words to the right person" are much simpler.
A) Unlike "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" they didn't cause anything by themselves. (arguments that V *needed* to hear them are mere assumptions/projections, nothing indicated by the comic itself)
B) Unlike "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" they weren't "right" in any way, by any meaningful definition of "right".
C) Unlike Kubota, V wasn't the "right person" to speak these words to, by any meaningful definition of "right" either.
You do know that "right" can mean "correct", don't you? Because in that sense of the word "right", "I... I must succeed" fits perfectly.

Also:
A) "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." caused two things. 1) Kubota became a pile of ash. 2) That pile of ash was swept out to sea. Those are the only things that happened because of those words. "I... I must succeed.", however, lead directly to V accepting the deal.
B) "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." were only "right" in the sense that they were the verbal components for two spells that V wanted to cast. "I... I must succeed." were the "right" words in the sense that they were the "correct" words to convince V to accept the fiends' deal.
C) "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." was not spoken TO anyone. They weren't even spoken AT anyone (a major distinction, and if you can't tell the difference, or don't care, then you have no business discussing prophecy). They were simply spoken. Also, I don't know who you think the "correct" person in that case would have been, since it was V that needed convincing, and V that was doing the convincing. Kinda have to talk to yourself in those situations.

The vast majority of people in this thread, the ones supporting the "I... I must succeed" simply utterly ignore the adjective "right" when they make their case. And I agree with you, if that adjective was missing from the prophecy, those words might be the fulfillment, as I'd only have point (A) left. Unfortunately for you I also have points (B) and (C) and together they make a pretty strong case.
Wait! I know! The Oracle was actually speaking about the location of the speech bubble! Since it was to the left of V, that means it couldn't be the fulfillment of the prophecy! .... Oh wait, "right" doesn't necessarily mean the opposite of "left"?[/sarcasm]

Let us consider that your point (A) is both wrong (meaning "incorrect") and irrelevant (since the only effects those four words had was the death of Kubota and the disposal of the remains), as well as the fact that you completely ignore the meaning of "right" as in "correct".

It should be the side that makes an argument that calls its summarization accurate and truthful.
I have to assume that you're saying that our side has made no arguments. From the assumption, I further assume that you have not read either this thread, or any other thread questioning the fulfillment of the prophecy.

And do you think I care about your own self-constructed strawmen? I didn't make a single one of the arguments you mentioned -- you didn't list a single one of the arguments I made.
Your point? He never said he was speaking about your post specifically. He was speaking against the most prevalent thoughts. Which, I might add, tend to be more well thought out than saying that the definition of "right" in the prophecy refers to morality instead of correctness.

If only any of those points had actually been made.
They have been. Several times. Go read a few of the other threads.

SadisticFishing

2009-06-26, 10:11 AM

Skorj

2009-06-26, 10:11 AM

Optimystik

2009-06-26, 10:17 AM

Need concrete proof that V obtained ultimate arcane power? By the Rule of Cool, the first panel's the proof: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html There's even a choir chanting in latin.

Yes, some fans were expecting an "I win" button. The fact that you can have ultimate arcane power and still be defeated by a small group of allies working together was the entire point of the V arc. V accomplished more with 1HP, one spell, and her allies O-Chul and Class-Feature-Haley-Named than she did with ultimate arcane power. Again: entire point of the V arc.

Not to mention, Xykon's entire speech on the Nature of Power was intended as a slap in the face. V's failure wasn't because he didn't get UAP; his failure was because he believed that was the only kind of power that was important. Xykon proved him thoroughly wrong.

SadisticFishing

2009-06-26, 10:19 AM

Is anyone still arguing that he didn't get Ultimate Arcane Power? Because that's just silly and not worth debating.

Sholos

2009-06-26, 10:19 AM

Sholos.. what!?

I don't even think I agree with him, and your post makes ridiculous assumptions and all but calls him an idiot for something that YOU are misunderstanding...

He means right, like correct.

No, he specifically says he's talking about morals.

Here, the quote (snipped to the important parts, and the BIG things bolded):

...

While my own objections are moral -- the utter disregard of the issue of "right person" and "right words" in the "I... I must succeed".

Well, let's see -- the words could have been "right" ones. Same as Disintegrate.Gust of Wind. were right ones in the sense that they served the Greater Good. V's words were the wrong ones, in the sense that they served his self-centeredness.

The person they were spoken to could have been the "right" one in any sense. When you're monologuing, you can only be speaking to one person, so issue of rightness is moot there. On the other hand, when you're executing someone, the guy may deserve it or not, therefore the case of rightness and wrongness is very significant.

So in short, I'm certainly hoping for something of the moral confusion of Kubota's killing, (right words, right person, wrong reasons) not the mere wrong-reasons of his deal with the fiends.

SadisticFishing

2009-06-26, 10:21 AM

Oh what he's saying doesn't make that much sense, but your response was extremely snippy and I assumed you were in the wrong :P

Sorry.

Sholos

2009-06-26, 10:37 AM

Oh what he's saying doesn't make that much sense, but your response was extremely snippy and I assumed you were in the wrong :P

Sorry.

No problems. ^_^

fishguy

2009-06-26, 10:47 AM

I tend to not have a firm opinion about this whole "Was the splice the UAP promised by the Oracle?" question. I can certainly see the arguments on the pro side of the debate.

However, I also know that it is a fairly standard, and effective, storytelling practice to create a false-positive in a matter such as this. Part of the requirements of creating this false-positive are that it really, really seems to fit... but often there will be niggling points that make it unsatisfying or borderline questionable.

Has Rich done this here? Maybe. He certainly seems to have a thesis or lesson that he is promulgating about the nature of power... and the punch line of that thesis may be yet to come, and may involve a different take on UAP that catches, us the audience, somewhat by surprise... thereby enhancing the impact of the lesson. It is a thing that great story-tellers do, and I certainly feel that Rich qualifies as one of those.

Or maybe the punch line was delivered by Xykon... It sure seems like it fits... but even so.... I, and I think more than a few of us forumites, find it somehow less than satisfying. There is that darn niggling voice that keeps saying, "but what does that even mean".

I sometimes suspect that Rich's thesis may be that Xykon's take on power is just as flawed as V's and that a lesson about the real nature of power may yet be in the offing. And maybe... just maybe, the title of the strip where that happens will be "The right words, the right time, the right person...."

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-26, 12:30 PM

Aris, I don't remember mentioning you at all in my post.

Disingenuous. You've been mentioning me in previous posts, including with sentences such as "Have fun in dreamland", and then you make a dishonest summary of the point you're arguing against.

Merely saying V wasn't the right person without any form of support doesn't make it so. Go ahead, convince me.

I've expanded it in previous posts. When one is trying to convince himself (the interpretation people are offering for V's words there), then there's no point in wondering whether he's talking to the right person. A person trying to convince himself has only one choice who to talk to. No right or wrong about it.

You do know that "right" can mean "correct", don't you?

You mean correct factually? Is your argument that V's words were "the right" ones in the sense that they were factually correct?

Interesting point. But frankly I find a subtle but significant distinction between "four correct words" and "the correct four words"). And even if this "factual correctness" interpretation ends up correct, I'd find it disappointing if we got factuality instead of ethics.

Is anyone still arguing that he didn't get Ultimate Arcane Power?

Not me. I believe V got as ultimate as power as ve's ever gonna get, I just disagree about which right four words at the right person at the right time for all the wrong reasons were the crucial ones that got V this power. My argument is that it most probably was "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."

Optimystik

2009-06-26, 01:21 PM

Disingenuous. You've been mentioning me in previous posts, including with sentences such as "Have fun in dreamland", and then you make a dishonest summary of the point you're arguing against.

My summary post wasn't even in response to you, nor was it dishonest. I honestly find the points that repeatedly come up in these threads to be ridiculous.

NOW I'll refute your specific hypothesis.

I've expanded it in previous posts. When one is trying to convince himself (the interpretation people are offering for V's words there), then there's no point in wondering whether he's talking to the right person. A person trying to convince himself has only one choice who to talk to. No right or wrong about it.

You're wrong - he did have a choice about who to talk to. He very clearly wasn't alone on the island; even if he was, he is also religious. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html) He is thus "the right person" because he had a choice about who to talk to, and he chose to address the one person that could convince him successfully - namely, himself.

You furthermore have yet to show that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." were said TO anyone. Verbal components to arcane spells are spoken aloud, and the cosmic forces rearrange themselves to follow suit; neither the target of the spell nor any bystanders are the intended audience. And even if you argue that "Disintegrate" was said to Kubota, he ceased to exist before "Gust of Wind." So I still disagree.

David Argall

2009-06-26, 02:09 PM

It was the final action that caused V to separate from Elan and Durkon.
V mentions why he leaves, and the Kubota elimination is ignored by her.

Definitely for the wrong reasons. The comic spent a whole strip detailing all the wrong reasons V had to kill Kubota. I guess some people can't see wrong reasons unless the comic is actually titled "wrong reasons".
That is a better reason to assume they are wrong reasons. the reasons V gave for offing Kubota seem entirely sound.

And it definitely was the indirect cause of his getting power, atleast as much as Haley's not looking a gift horse in the mouth.
Haley got her voice back within hours, not days or more, of not looking a gift horse in the mouth, and effectively had no more decisions to make after that point. V had to decide to leave and to accept the fiends' offer, about a week later. And that is if we even accept that V deemed the Kubota incident a factor worth bothering about.

I find the Kubota fulfillment an absolutely wonderful one -- it's even more wonderful how our author is trying to mislead you all by adding some nonsensical four words at the very last panel before V gets the power too.
Our writer does not try to mislead us, beyond the short range. He wants us to know when the prediction comes true, not have an event that is so disconnected.

The Kubota case does not involve 4 words.
They are not spoken to Kubota
Kubota is not the right person.
They are not the wrong reasons.

hamishspence

2009-06-26, 02:38 PM

That is a better reason to assume they are wrong reasons. the reasons V gave for offing Kubota seem entirely sound.

To some. Not to those of us who think "tied up by elan" is the thinnest of circumstantial evidence.

also "enemy, therefore valid target" is more than a little dubious.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-26, 02:43 PM

V mentions why he leaves, and the Kubota elimination is ignored by her.

That V considers Kubota unimportant doesn't mean that Kubota was unimportant.

That is a better reason to assume they are wrong reasons. the reasons V gave for offing Kubota seem entirely sound.

We disagree on a moral level here.

Haley got her voice back within hours, not days or more, of not looking a gift horse in the mouth,

The difference between hours and days is arbitrary.

and effectively had no more decisions to make after that point.

Sure she did. She could decide not to declare her love for Elan, even under the threat of Nale convincing Elan of her supposed treason.

In both cases the Oracle chose the seemingly trivial unrelated decision -- her date with Nale, V's killing of Kubata. The Oracle didn't choose her declaration of love to Elan, and he didn't choose V's acceptance of the fiend's deal. It'd be a "BIG DUH!" if the oracle chose the immediate preceding event occurring a single second before the point of achievement.

My interpretation is consistent with the previous prophecy's "disconnected" event.

V deemed the Kubota incident a factor worth bothering about.

It doesn't matter what V deems. V is notorious at not deeming things correctly.

Our writer does not try to mislead us, beyond the short range. He wants us to know when the prediction comes true, not have an event that is so disconnected.

Our writer can always try to come in the forums, and clarify the issue, if he really wants it clarified.

Since he doesn't appear, my belief that our author wants you mislead seems much more validated that your belief that he doesn't.

hamishspence

2009-06-26, 02:48 PM

Given that V announced intent to leave is based on them being albatrosses around neck, and given that Elan has warning V he would "tell Hinjo everything" the fact that Elan made that threat seems like a likely contributor to the decision.

Personally though, seems like a big gap.

"How will I gain UAP" is the question, not- "what must I do for events to lead to gaining UAP"

Optimystik

2009-06-26, 03:13 PM

To some. Not to those of us who think "tied up by elan" is the thinnest of circumstantial evidence.

also "enemy, therefore valid target" is more than a little dubious.

V arrived at the right conclusion. I agree with you that the logical process he used to reach that conclusion was more than a little suspect (a rope and a moustache, basically) but that doesn't change the fact that his conclusion was the right one (Kubota was a villain.) Since "Kubota was a villain" was the reason for his attack, that makes them the right reasons, and thus not fit the prophecy.

hamishspence

2009-06-26, 03:17 PM

and also, the definition of Valid target. "unarmed, bound enemy on the way to trial"

Sholos

2009-06-26, 10:47 PM

and also, the definition of Valid target. "unarmed, bound enemy on the way to trial"

No one ever said V was of the Good alignment at the time. At least, that's my explanation. Besides, in V's mind (which is the only mind that matters here), even a tied up enemy was a valid target if leaving that enemy alive was going to cost a lot of time.

Ceryan

2009-06-27, 12:19 AM

Need concrete proof that V obtained ultimate arcane power? By the Rule of Cool, the first panel's the proof: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html There's even a choir chanting in latin.

Yes, some fans were expecting an "I win" button. The fact that you can have ultimate arcane power and still be defeated by a small group of allies working together was the entire point of the V arc. V accomplished more with 1HP, one spell, and her allies O-Chul and Class-Feature-Haley-Named than she did with ultimate arcane power. Again: entire point of the V arc.

This solves the entire issue. Really, it does. This post should be stickied to stop further threads.

Hands_Of_Blue

2009-06-27, 01:50 AM

That is a better reason to assume they are wrong reasons. the reasons V gave for offing Kubota seem entirely sound. I don't think that's what Rich was trying to convey. I mean, he had Elan, who is one of, if not the, most good people in the strip, think what Varrsuvius did was wrong, and then had (a fake) Belkar think it was awesome. And both of those, to me, seem like good indicators that Rich wanted us to know that what V did was wrong.

Rotipher

2009-06-27, 04:34 PM

In both cases the Oracle chose the seemingly trivial unrelated decision -- her date with Nale, V's killing of Kubata. The Oracle didn't choose her declaration of love to Elan, and he didn't choose V's acceptance of the fiend's deal. It'd be a "BIG DUH!" if the oracle chose the immediate preceding event occurring a single second before the point of achievement.

My interpretation is consistent with the previous prophecy's "disconnected" event.

Er, back on the first page of this thread, you were saying that "I ... I must succeed" seemed disconnected from V's gaining UAP, because the exact phrasing used wasn't crucial to V's decision to accept the deal. Now you're arguing that it's too connected to that decision? :smallconfused:

fangthane

2009-06-27, 05:31 PM

12 Gods, we have David Argall, Optimystik and Sadisticfishing agreeing for a change and yet people doubt that receiving (effectively) a temporary gestalt with 3 of the mightiest wielders of arcane power who ever lived in their world - and receiving a verbal smackdown from Xykon on the topic, to boot - constitutes a fulfilment of the Oracle's terms?

Right 4 words? Rich may have pigeonholed himself somewhat by making it 4, rather than 2, 3, 5 or another number, but those 4 words were what allowed V to convince himself to take the deal. (I was expecting "Let's make a deal" with Qarr, but aaaanyhow)

Right person? V is the one in need of convincing; the demon, devil and daemon already want to do the deal. So, in this case, speaking to himself to bolster his nerve is exactly the Right Person.

Right time? Time stop was about to lapse; the iron doesn't get much hotter than that.

Wrong reasons? I think we all agree they were the wrong reasons.

Anyone who can provide a cogent logical argument as to how this fails to satisfy the terms of V's oracular response, I'd love to see it; I haven't seen it so far in this thread. In so doing, be sure to explain the title of the strip in question and why it can safely be ignored in favour of a personal agenda, hmm? :smallamused:

hamishspence

2009-06-27, 05:35 PM

yes. There were a few claims that "V lost, therefore it couldn't be all that ultimate, and a lot of "V only lost because The Plot Required It", but no strong arguments against it.

Given the amount of evidence for it, it seems a foregone conclusion.

Kilremgor

2009-06-27, 05:49 PM

The problem of interpreting the prediction?
It looks strange in retrospect. Or, in some sense, futurespect :)

Imagine you're the Oracle and see the strip where V gains UAP.
Would you go with 'four words' answer to the 'how do I' question?
Why not answer 'by touching the shiny blue orb at the right time for all the wrong reasons'?
That would've been much closer to truth, correct, and would've been even more beautiful as a prophecy: while you don't know what it is about, there are plenty of interpretations (is 'shiny blue orb' some powerful artifact? will there be orbs of different color around? etc.), but once it is fulfilled, it is entirely clear how correct it was.

That's the main reason why prophecy feels that strange. Belkar's prophecy and Haley's fullfilled correctly and clearly to characters (well, Belkar's was twisted in a way, yet its actual fulfillment was very clear), while this one is... strange.

It is of course possibe that Oracle wasn't seeing things perfectly or wanted to make his prophecy less straightforward, so he switched the orb (actual UAP gain) for words, but that's still unusual.

dr.cello

2009-06-27, 07:15 PM

Despite keeping the prophecy at the forefront of my mind while reading the strip, it never even occurred to me that it had been fulfilled when V triggered the soul splice. Upon re-reading, it feels like a red herring, of the sort that is intended to make people think that it's obvious, without actually fulfilling it.

The only facts that most people seem to agree on: it was four words, and it was for the wrong reasons.

A causal relationship has yet to be demonstrated between uttering these four words and gaining UAP; nor has it been clearly established that they were the "right" four words, nor that they were uttered to the right being, nor that it was even at the right time.

"By saying the right four words..." implies that the utterance of those four words is directly linked to the gaining of arcane power. I don't feel the connection here is very strong--it is about as strong as the Oracle's case that Belkar caused the deaths of Roy, Miko, and Windstriker.

The fact that the Giant made sure it was a non-verbal contract seems to imply strongly that he doesn't feel it's sufficient, either. Was the V-getting-a-soul-splice arc badass? Yes. Was it a cinematic way to resolve the prophecy? Not really. And this was the sort of prophecy that needs a clear and cinematic resolution, not a bunch of "okay, I guess that technically counts" later on.

V has apparently taken a sharp turn for the evil. The fiends have more plans for what they can do with V, or they wouldn't have bothered with the pact. Surely they hope to accomplish a great deal here.

LuisDantas

2009-06-27, 07:50 PM

Imagine you're the Oracle and see the strip where V gains UAP.
Would you go with 'four words' answer to the 'how do I' question?
Why not answer 'by touching the shiny blue orb at the right time for all the wrong reasons'?

Because the Oracle doesn't like to use such a literal style, as we have seem with Haley's prophecy.

Or if you prefer, it may also be because using such a style would make fulfilling the prophecies less likely; V would be naturally on guard against using such a blue orb, and the IFCC could simply use some other gizmo or symbol instead, thereby voiding the prophecy.

That would've been much closer to truth, correct, and would've been even more beautiful as a prophecy: while you don't know what it is about, there are plenty of interpretations (is 'shiny blue orb' some powerful artifact? will there be orbs of different color around? etc.), but once it is fulfilled, it is entirely clear how correct it was.

That's the main reason why prophecy feels that strange. Belkar's prophecy and Haley's fullfilled correctly and clearly to characters (well, Belkar's was twisted in a way, yet its actual fulfillment was very clear), while this one is... strange.

It is of course possibe that Oracle wasn't seeing things perfectly or wanted to make his prophecy less straightforward, so he switched the orb (actual UAP gain) for words, but that's still unusual.

The orb had nothing to do with the four words, which are clearly "Disintegrate - Gust of Wind"; besides having a clearer and more direct link to the acquisition of UAP, they are also harder to intentionally avoid.

Sholos

2009-06-28, 02:03 AM

The orb had nothing to do with the four words, which are clearly "Disintegrate - Gust of Wind"; besides having a clearer and more direct link to the acquisition of UAP, they are also harder to intentionally avoid.

Please explain how those two spells have a more "direct" link than the very words used to convince V to take the power. I'd love to see that explanation.
__________________________

A causal relationship has yet to be demonstrated between uttering these four words and gaining UAP;
Except for, you know, the part where V said it to convince himself.

nor has it been clearly established that they were the "right" four words,
Except for, you know, the part where he gained UAP immediately afterwards, showing that they were obviously the right words.

nor that they were uttered to the right being,
Did you miss the part where V was talking to himself? V was the only being that needed to be spoken to, so it's pretty clear that V was the right person.

nor that it was even at the right time.
Right before the Time Stop ends? Just in time to take the power before the deal expired? Sounds like the right time to me. Technically, any time during the offer would have been the "right time".

"By saying the right four words..." implies that the utterance of those four words is directly linked to the gaining of arcane power.
It may imply it, but implication is just that. Implication. Try reading it without reading anything into it.

I don't feel the connection here is very strong--it is about as strong as the Oracle's case that Belkar caused the deaths of Roy, Miko, and Windstriker.
Oh, come on! It's very obviously stronger. V said what he said with the explicit purpose of excusing himself to take the power. Nothing that Belkar did was designed to kill any of those people.

The fact that the Giant made sure it was a non-verbal contract seems to imply strongly that he doesn't feel it's sufficient, either. Was the V-getting-a-soul-splice arc badass? Yes. Was it a cinematic way to resolve the prophecy? Not really. And this was the sort of prophecy that needs a clear and cinematic resolution, not a bunch of "okay, I guess that technically counts" later on.
Why do you feel that it needs a big, cinematic resolution? Though I don't know how much more cinematic you're going to get than big, flashy lights and a Latin choir.

V has apparently taken a sharp turn for the evil. The fiends have more plans for what they can do with V, or they wouldn't have bothered with the pact. Surely they hope to accomplish a great deal here.
And this has what to do with whether the prophecy has been fulfilled or not?

dr.cello

2009-06-28, 02:31 AM

Except for, you know, the part where V said it to convince himself.

This has yet to be established; this is an obvious "reading into the motivations" you're doing here. V could easily have said the words in the same way one might say "Eh, why the hell not?" It's not trying to convince yourself, it's just verbal filler, thinking out loud. Also, maybe you're different, but nothing that I can say to myself is going to change my mind. It's the thoughts behind it--the words are just window dressing. Hence, ball's in your court.

Except for, you know, the part where he gained UAP immediately afterwards, showing that they were obviously the right words.

That's pretty circular. "They were the right four words because they were the four words that fulfilled the prophecy. You can tell they were the four words that fulfilled the prophecy because they were the right four words." Come on.

Did you miss the part where V was talking to himself? V was the only being that needed to be spoken to, so it's pretty clear that V was the right person.

Not even going to go into how broken of an interpretation this is.

Right before the Time Stop ends? Just in time to take the power before the deal expired? Sounds like the right time to me. Technically, any time during the offer would have been the "right time".

Yeah, no.

It may imply it, but implication is just that. Implication. Try reading it without reading anything into it.

You appear to be mistaking implication for inference. Implication is something which is an inherent property of the words, text, topic, or fact; inference is something you read into it. I am talking about the latter. If you look at the phrase "By saying the right four words..." in response to the question "How will I gain X?" the only correct interpretation is that "saying the right four words" is a /direct causal factor/ in gaining X. Anything else, and you are no longer correctly interpreting the language used, and are clearly reading your own thoughts and desires into it.

Oh, come on! It's very obviously stronger. V said what he said with the explicit purpose of excusing himself to take the power. Nothing that Belkar did was designed to kill any of those people.

Not convinced in the slightest.

Why do you feel that it needs a big, cinematic resolution? Though I don't know how much more cinematic you're going to get than big, flashy lights and a Latin choir.

Yes, that wasn't big, flashy lights and a Latin choir for the fulfilment of a prophecy; it was big, flashy lights for the initiation of the Soul Splice. The former remains completely unsung. And it needs a cinematic resolution because it was a cinematic prophecy. That's just how narrative structures work.

And this has what to do with whether the prophecy has been fulfilled or not?

My bad; I assumed you'd understand basic inferences.

See, the fiends expected to gain a lot out of V through this act. If this is the culmination of V's ultimate arcane power, they are getting a pretty raw deal on the subject. This implies that they believe that, later on, V will be even more capable than ze was during the soul splice in some way. Giving someone "ultimate power" in exchange for a few hours of service isn't a deal they want to make--it makes much more sense granting V a taste of power, and then expecting that taste to become an addiction.

Xykon's "nature of power" speech will probably only encourage V to find other ways to augment hir power, and while it's easy to say that's the most powerful V will ever be, this makes the rest of hir story a bit of an anticlimax. (The other possible outcome in my mind, which is possible but probably less interesting, is that V will give up the search for ultimate arcane power and be more accommodating to the rest of the party, having tasted defeat etc.; this seems rather out of character.)

spargel

2009-06-28, 03:38 AM

Because the Oracle doesn't like to use such a literal style, as we have seem with Haley's prophecy.

And that would mean the Oracle miffed a prediction.

Or if you prefer, it may also be because using such a style would make fulfilling the prophecies less likely; V would be naturally on guard against using such a blue orb, and the IFCC could simply use some other gizmo or symbol instead, thereby voiding the prophecy.

That would be one of the paradoxes that come with the ability to see into the future.

Thanatosia

2009-06-28, 05:34 AM

Or if you prefer, it may also be because using such a style would make fulfilling the prophecies less likely; V would be naturally on guard against using such a blue orb, and the IFCC could simply use some other gizmo or symbol instead, thereby voiding the prophecy.
Why would V be on guard against using such a blue orb? If the prophecy he had recieved had read just like the one the oracle gave him except that it said he'd touch a blue orb instead of speaking 4 words as the method to gain total ultimate arcane power, then I'd think V would go around trying to touch anything that could even vaguely be described as a blue orb.... Remember, V wants the prophecy fulfilled, he does not need to be tricked into it, he wants the TUAP, and the prophecy gave no warnings to make him want to think twice about diving into it as soon as he gets the chance.

Similarly, the IFCC wants V to take the deal, so if they knew of the prophecy they'd have no reason to want to play paradox games to invalidate their offer fulfilling it - they know the TUAP is something V wants and would have no problem clearly offering it to him for what they want in return.

LuisDantas

2009-06-28, 08:09 AM

Please explain how those two spells have a more "direct" link than the very words used to convince V to take the power. I'd love to see that explanation.

As rightfully noted, speaking "I... I must succeed" had no true causal link to acquiring the UAP. As a matter of fact, even touching the blue orb itself was explicitly a cerimonial gesture that could easily be left out entirely.

"Disintegrate! Gust of Wind!", however, caused two distinct-if-related sets of events that made the Soul Splice possible. Had Vaarsuvius chosen not to slay Kubota and hide the evidence (which he did with those four words), he would be very unlikely to consider the Soul Splice deal, or even be offered it.

And that would mean the Oracle miffed a prediction.

Nope. The prediction was very accurate and true. That it did Vaarsuvius little good does not miff it. Unless, I suppose, I misunderstood what "to miff" means.

Why would V be on guard against using such a blue orb?

He would, if the prophecy warned him that he would do so for "entirely the wrong reasons". That is one of the reasons why the prophecy wasn't that specific and easy to pinpoint.

If the prophecy he had recieved had read just like the one the oracle gave him except that it said he'd touch a blue orb instead of speaking 4 words as the method to gain total ultimate arcane power, then I'd think V would go around trying to touch anything that could even vaguely be described as a blue orb.... Remember, V wants the prophecy fulfilled, he does not need to be tricked into it, he wants the TUAP, and the prophecy gave no warnings to make him want to think twice about diving into it as soon as he gets the chance.

How do you interpret "wrong reasons" then? It sure seems like a warning to me.

Similarly, the IFCC wants V to take the deal, so if they knew of the prophecy they'd have no reason to want to play paradox games to invalidate their offer fulfilling it - they know the TUAP is something V wants and would have no problem clearly offering it to him for what they want in return.

The IFCC needed to find a delicate balance between making the deal attractive enough to be accepted and straight enough to be valid, so no, they would not play such games.

But, of course, they did not have to choose.

The act linked to the wrong reasons was by then already done and over; barring retcons, it was not in any way their fault that Vaarsuvius dealt so poorly with Kubota. They are feeding and taking advantage of his moral weakness, but they did not create it.

Vaarsuvius4181

2009-06-28, 08:16 AM

In Strip #331, V asks the Oracle "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power" and the Oracle's response was "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons"

note, BEING, not BEINGS

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 08:38 AM

Er, back on the first page of this thread, you were saying that "I ... I must succeed" seemed disconnected from V's gaining UAP, because the exact phrasing used wasn't crucial to V's decision to accept the deal. Now you're arguing that it's too connected to that decision? :smallconfused:

My argument is consistent: I'm arguing that in both cases the most immediate decision point isn't the most crucial decision point. The words V used at that final panel (supposedly to convince himself) are not crucial in any way, even though they're immediate.

People are using the immediacy argument (the four words *immediately* before V gained the power) when Haley's prophecy shows us that immediacy is not what the Oracle cared for.

Except for, you know, the part where he gained UAP immediately afterwards, showing that they were obviously the right words.

As Dr.Cello said, that's a ludicrously circular argument.

V was the only being that needed to be spoken to, so it's pretty clear that V was the right person.

Again circular. You interpret "right" as "whatever is needed to fulfill the prophecy", and therefore whatever you believe to fulfill the prophecy, you automatically consider to be "right". Meaningless circularity.

Removing all the bits you interpret circularly you're only left with "four words at a being for all the wrong reasons", not the actual full prophecy.

Please explain how those two spells have a more "direct" link than the very words used to convince V to take the power.

I have detailed the result of those two spells in detail in previous posts: Both V's separation from his friends and Qarr meeting up with V -- the spells resulted directly to both V's need for the power, and Qarr's offering the opportunity to achieve it. It's difficult to imagine any other sequence of events that would lead to both V departing his friends AND Qarr offering him his services.

"I... I must succeed" in comparison, are trivial: V could have stayed silent and he'd still have gotten the power -- he could have used a million different paraphrases and still have gotten the power. There's no causal connection there -- despite unsubstantiated arguments that V "needed" to hear the words he spoke.

dr.cello

2009-06-28, 08:49 AM

"I... I must succeed" in comparison, are trivial: V could have stayed silent and he'd still have gotten the power -- he could have used a million different paraphrases and still have gotten the power. There's no causal connection there -- despite unsubstantiated arguments that V "needed" to hear the words he spoke.

Well said. Though I'm sure someone is going to argue "that's irrelevant, he did say them," the fact remains that they were unnecessary. This is an entirely different argument from "it could have been five words, or three"--the prophecy only ever stipulates that he will say four words which will directly lead to his acquisition of UAP, rather than that only those four words are capable of doing so. It is, rather, testing whether the words were necessary, and thus, whether they were causal.

Kalbron

2009-06-28, 08:53 AM

And V was telling himself that he must succeed. He's a being, not beings.

I still think that the argument that covers all bases is to say that the Oracle never specified WHEN after saying the right four words to the right being for all the wrong reasons that the UAP would appear.

Could the gestalt be it? Sure, but it could also not be. However could it also be that due to V's actions in regards to the fiends directly results in him coming across/growing into/fusing with/becoming connected with the true UAP during a later strip? Until the future comes we'll never know.

Heck, when the fiends call their debt perhaps he'll become supercharged with infernal powers for a short while and kick serious ass for a change using the new and improved UAP that the fiends could have offered the first time around, but saw no benefit for them to do so

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 09:03 AM

12 Gods, we have David Argall, Optimystik and Sadisticfishing agreeing for a change and yet people doubt

Yes, bizarrely enough, people can doubt other people, even if those people are notorious ones in this forum. Some people have their own minds.

Right 4 words? Rich may have pigeonholed himself somewhat by making it 4, rather than 2, 3, 5 or another number, but those 4 words were what allowed V to convince himself to take the deal.

Unsubstantiated. Nobody has shown anything to indicate that V needed to hear these words, or that these words allowed him to do anything at all.

Plus, you're using circularity -- the words were "right" because they supposedly fulfilled the prophecy, and that's why they were "right".

Right person? V is the one in need of convincing; the demon, devil and daemon already want to do the deal. So, in this case, speaking to himself to bolster his nerve is exactly the Right Person.

Circularity yet again. "V needed to address himself to fulfil the prophecy, hence when he addressed himself, he was the right person".

By using such circularity, you're merely turning the word "right" meaningless: The prophecy could have just said "Four words to a being for all the wrong reasons", and it'd offer no less detail than what you're offering.

In so doing, be sure to explain the title of the strip in question and why it can safely be ignored in favour of a personal agenda, hmm? :smallamused:

Let me just say this to your amused smirk. Some people don't need to have a comic titled "wrong reasons" to identify wrong reasons for what they are.

Given how many people can identify wrongness only if Authority tells them so (and your incredulity that people would disagree with all three notorious posters shows how Authority-bound you are) I can see why some people would see "all the wrong reasons" only in the comic explicitly titled "wrong reasons".

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 09:18 AM

The original prophecy:

V: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
O: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

In strip #634, titled "the wrong reasons" ends with V saying four words. In strip #635, V has tremendous power, described by the fiends as "dwarfing that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster that has ever lived", i.e. ultimate arcane power.

The only missing component in the prophecy is that V was talking to three beings, not one. It is not too large a leap to say that "the right being" was V himself.

It's pretty clear that this is intended to be a fullfillment of the prophecy. I don't really see how you can argue otherwise. :shrug:

Nerdanel

2009-06-28, 09:34 AM

Just to make things clear, the splice wasn't a three-way gestalt but it was revealed that it worked more like a nerfed version of multiclassing. In the beginning the gestalt idea was popular because it would have been tremendously powerful and would thus have been a good candidate for Ultimate Arcane Power. But the events of the Xykon fight revealed that instead V had received something far weaker, something that realistically wasn't all that much more powerful than, say, a soul splice with Haerta only, or Haerta when she was alive - at least when we consider the theoretical ability to defeat stuff as opposed to just spells.

In fact, now that I think of it, the living Haerta alone would have been likely to beat V spliced to herself, Jephton and Ganonron. If you consider spells only, the spliced V is more versatile but not significantly more powerful. If you consider things like saves, magic items, and concentration checks, Haerta would have a massive advantage. Note that if you consider spliced souls to count as "arcane power" you need to count at least magic items created by arcane casters too, as the two are very similar in being external to the character using them.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 10:25 AM

The original prophecy:

V: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
O: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

In strip #634, titled "the wrong reasons" ends with V saying four words.

Exactly. Just four words. Not particularly "right" ones, though.

In strip #635, V has tremendous power, described by the fiends as "dwarfing that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster that has ever lived", i.e. ultimate arcane power.

The only missing component in the prophecy is that V was talking to three beings, not one. It is not too large a leap to say that "the right being" was V himself.

You missed a few more components.
1) The word "By" -- not "While". Indicating a causal relationship that's not indicated in the strip.
2) The words "right" -- for all the focus on the wrongness, most of you never focus on the rightness, other than in the circular meaningless "these elements are right because they fulfill the prophecy, and they fulfill the prophecy by being right".

Is it really unclear to you why I reject such a meaningless circular interpretation of the word "right" as lame beyond words?

It's pretty clear that this is intended to be a fullfillment of the prophecy. I don't really see how you can argue otherwise. :shrug:

We've explained multiple times and in detail how we can argue otherwise. You may disagree with our arguments, but if you don't even see them, then that's not our fault, it's yours.

SteveDJ

2009-06-28, 10:52 AM

Are people forgetting the one other element required to satisfy the prediction? Nowhere throughout that entire plot line did we see the use of a doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)being employed. So I'm not sure that we've seen the official prediction satisfied yet... :smallbiggrin:

Although now that I look at it, a doily grants access to Ultimate Cosmic Power, while the prophecy was for Ultimate Arcane Power. Hmmm, maybe they are different - but then which one is better or more powerful?

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 10:55 AM

Is it really unclear to you why I reject such a meaningless circular interpretation of the word "right" as lame beyond words?

No, its perfectly clear to me why you're fixated on semantics and not willing to see the big picture. I get that. It is equally clear that these strips were intended by the author to be able to be interpreted as fulfillment of the prophecy.

We've explained multiple times and in detail how we can argue otherwise. You may disagree with our arguments, but if you don't even see them, then that's not our fault, it's yours.
I've expressed a contrary opinion that these strips represent a plain and obvious fullfillment of the prophecy. I see your arguments, but I find them silly -- you're too hung up on the minutia of a single tree to see the forest that's right in front of you.

These two strips fullfilled the prophecy. The giant did everything but hit us over the head with a hammer and shout it in our ears.

spargel

2009-06-28, 12:07 PM

No, its perfectly clear to me why you're fixated on semantics and not willing to see the big picture. I get that. It is equally clear that these strips were intended by the author to be able to be interpreted as fulfillment of the prophecy.

By the time that strip came, I was beginning to get used to plot twists, so the first thought that came into my mind was more "Is the author trying to pull a fake fulfillment?" instead of a "V is achieving her prophecy."

I've expressed a contrary opinion that these strips represent a plain and obvious fullfillment of the prophecy. I see your arguments, but I find them silly -- you're too hung up on the minutia of a single tree to see the forest that's right in front of you.

These two strips fullfilled the prophecy. The giant did everything but hit us over the head with a hammer and shout it in our ears.

Ignoring details usually leads to incorrect conclusions.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 12:20 PM

By the time that strip came, I was beginning to get used to plot twists, so the first thought that came into my mind was more "Is the author trying to pull a fake fulfillment?" instead of a "V is achieving her prophecy."

I'm not sure what a "fake" fullfillment would be. Either the conditions are met or they aren't. Now, it is certainly possible that at some point in the future, V will once again become very, very powerful -- perhaps seizing the same power that team evil is after with the gates -- and it is further possible that the circumstances around that gain of power will again meet the conditions of the prophecy.

That won't make this one a "fake fullfillment". The conditions were met.

Ignoring details usually leads to incorrect conclusions.
In this case, it is reading too much into the poetry of what the oracle said (the repitition of the word "right" is used to provide contrast for the use of the word "wrong", drawing attention to the final clause as the key issue -- "for all the wrong reasons"). I think it is silly to try and read anything into what "right" means in this context other than the words, being, and time when the power is granted. Obviously, you're quite free to feel otherwise, but the argument against is very, very weak.

spargel

2009-06-28, 12:34 PM

I'm not sure what a "fake" fullfillment would be. Either the conditions are met or they aren't. Now, it is certainly possible that at some point in the future, V will once again become very, very powerful -- perhaps seizing the same power that team evil is after with the gates -- and it is further possible that the circumstances around that gain of power will again meet the conditions of the prophecy.

That won't make this one a "fake fullfillment". The conditions were met.

If V ever gains more power than before, then it would definitely be a fake fulfillment because of the definition of "ultimate".

There's also the "By saying the right four words" part that's questionable. It's difficult for me to accept the "V needed to say those words to convince himself" argument.

In this case, it is reading too much into the poetry of what the oracle said (the repitition of the word "right" is used to provide contrast for the use of the word "wrong", drawing attention to the final clause as the key issue -- "for all the wrong reasons"). I think it is silly to try and read anything into what "right" means in this context other than the words, being, and time when the power is granted. Obviously, you're quite free to feel otherwise, but the argument against is very, very weak.

The Oracle twists words all the time, so it's not impossible. The adjective "right" is also subjective.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 01:19 PM

No, its perfectly clear to me why you're fixated on semantics

A) "Semantics" means a discussion of meaning. So, yeah, a discussion of the meaning of a prophecy, is by definition a discussion of the prophecy's semantics.

B) Secondly, since the only significant counterargument to my own interpretation (that it was the killing of Kubota which was the fullfillment of the prophecy) is something as mechanically trivial as "verbal components of the spells aren't spoken TO the spell's target, they're just spoken", that's irony.

It is equally clear that these strips were intended by the author to be able to be interpreted as fulfillment of the prophecy.

To me it's very clear that the killing of Kubota was the fulfillment of the prophecy, and that the author arranged events so that you would be mislead.

I see your arguments, but I find them silly -- you're too hung up on the minutia of a single tree to see the forest that's right in front of you.

The "silliness" of my argument consists of caring about the whole of the prophecy, not that tiny portion of it ("four words" "wrong reasons") you care about.

I think it is silly to try and read anything into what "right" means in this context other than the words, being, and time when the power is granted.

In sort, what you're actually saying is that the Oracle's prophecy meant the following:
- "How will I achieve complete and ultimate arcane power?"
- "While saying four words for all the wrong reasons."

You've not kept *anything* of the prophecy except "four words" "wrong reasons". You've not even kept the conjuction "by" but instead transformed it to "while".

David Argall

2009-06-28, 01:42 PM

"Disintegrate! Gust of Wind!", however, caused two distinct-if-related sets of events that made the Soul Splice possible. Had Vaarsuvius chosen not to slay Kubota and hide the evidence (which he did with those four words), he would be very unlikely to consider the Soul Splice deal, or even be offered it.

Both Dragon and fiends were lurking offstage. That means that any time V was isolated from the others for even minutes, the dragon could attack, and then the fiends could make their offer, which would be accepted. Of course this is not guaranteed. [The fiends had all six candidates in mind and might have offered to any of them who got desperate.] But this pretty much limits any Kubota connection to V getting the offer on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.
And as mentioned, V doesn't seem to deem the Kubota incident as a serious reason for leaving, no more than the latest annoying incident that is interfering with her work, and likely not even that. So the connection between Kubota and the offer is quite weak.

12 Gods, we have David Argall, Optimystik and Sadisticfishing agreeing for a change and yet people doubt...
Assuming we are each randomly right or wrong [I of course insist I am right well over 90% of the time, and I assume the others would say the same despite the mathematical impossibility.], the chance of all of us being wrong is 12.5%. A 2/3 chance of each being right, which at least doesn't defy the math would still be about 4% chance of all of us being wrong, which makes our united endorsement insufficient evidence.

...that receiving (effectively) a temporary gestalt with 3 of the mightiest wielders of arcane power who ever lived in their world - and receiving a verbal smackdown from Xykon on the topic, to boot - constitutes a fulfilment of the Oracle's terms?
I see the problem as we readers getting spoiled. Our writer has done so well so often that we have problems accepting a so-so effort, and this case was definitely not his best.
We also have the case of Roy's death, which was a cheesy fulfillment of Belkar's prediction, and which hid the actual fulfillment. This encourages the idea our writer was trying to be tricky again. But Belkar's was a very simple prophecy, which was easy to link to any of the named individuals. The misdirection could have been even accidental. V's is quite complex, requiring considerable setup to achieve.
Which is likely why I just can't see the story repeating itself to give us the same scene [only better] again. It is easier to believe the writer is human and has done something kind of middlin rather than that he has in mind some grandly devious, and likely stupid, idea in mind. [As has had been said of other ideas that didn't work out and which failure the conspiracy-minded thought was intentional "We aren't that smart and we aren't that stupid."]

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 02:04 PM

The "silliness" of my argument consists of caring about the whole of the prophecy, not that tiny portion of it ("four words" "wrong reasons") you care about.

No. The silliness is in trying to parse the prophecy one word at a time rather than looking at the meaning of the statement as a whole.

Nerdanel

2009-06-28, 02:36 PM

Choosing the opinions of three specific "big name" posters to base a probability estimate upon means ignoring the opinions of all but those three. Verbosity doesn't necessarily equate to insight.

I don't think V has gained his Ultimate Arcane Power yet, and I've always thought Belkar was Chaotic Evil. I demand consideration!

I think if Rich had meant the splice to be the Ultimate Arcane Power, the activation would have been something to the effect of "touch the blue orb and chant the words 'I accept the deal' to the secretary devil". As the method of accepting was essentially arbitrary, it would have been easy to make it more in line with the prophecy.

Either you are believing Rich is so bad at continuity that he miffs his own prophecy when the events could easily have been massaged to fit or that the Four Words are part of Rich's long term plan for the story and yet to come.

I think Rich is indeed doing exactly the same thing he did with Belkar. With the prophecy semi-plausibly out of the way, the real fulfillment will come as a shock instead of the old situation where every time a new strip came up where V spoke, people would count his words to find a set of four that could be interpreted to lead to Ultimate Arcane Power.

I think "The Wrong Reasons" as a strip title is a classic red herring. This forum had been abuzz about the prophecy, so all the forumites reading the title would instantly jump to the conclusion that V would accept the deal and gain Ultimate Arcane Power even though the title doesn't mention if the wrong reasons of the title are the specific wrong reasons of the prophecy. I think the title is comparable to "A Dragon's Victory" except that the moment of realization that the title was a red herring came right at the end of the strip instead of being scheduled for much later.

Thanatosia

2009-06-28, 02:37 PM

No. The silliness is in trying to parse the prophecy one word at a time rather than looking at the meaning of the statement as a whole.
The meaning of the statement as a whole is that the method by which TUAP will be achieved will be saying 4 words under certain circumstances. V spoke 4 words, but they were not the method by which the TUAP was achieved, so I can't see how the prophecy could be viewed as validly fulfilled.

I think if Rich had meant the splice to be the Ultimate Arcane Power, the activation would have been something to the effect of "touch the blue orb and chant the words 'I accept the deal' to the secretary devil". As the method of accepting was essentially arbitrary, it would have been easy to make it more in line with the prophecy.

Either you are believing Rich is so bad at continuity that he miffs his own prophecy when the events could easily have been massaged to fit or that the Four Words are part of Rich's long term plan for the story and yet to come.
Well said IMO - the red/blue orb thing is just too contrived for it to just be there, when Rich could have so easily writain in a 4-word form of acceptance, the whole purpose of the Orbs seems to be precisely engineered to prevent the events from fulfilling the prophecy.

The Extinguisher

2009-06-28, 03:04 PM

I agree. V hasn't gained ultimate power.

But personally, I'm still waiting for that horse to show up so Haley will get her speech back.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 03:21 PM

But personally, I'm still waiting for that horse to show up so Haley will get her speech back.

Beat me to it. I was just about to post the same thing.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 03:22 PM

Both Dragon and fiends were lurking offstage. That means that any time V was isolated from the others for even minutes, the dragon could attack, and then the fiends could make their offer, which would be accepted. Of course this is not guaranteed. [The fiends had all six candidates in mind and might have offered to any of them who got desperate.] But this pretty much limits any Kubota connection to V getting the offer on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.

If V had delayed his departure from the fleet for only two days or so, Haley's Sending would have reached Durkon, and they'd all have windwalked to Greysky city. V needing to make any deal with fiends after that seems even more improbable.

Plus, if I remember correctly, the fiends seem to have become aware of the situation only after Qarr sent his request for an application. Without Qarr (who attached himself to V only because of Kubota's killing) the fiends wouldn't have been in time with their offer to seriously tempt V.

But I am actually not 100% set on this being the fulfillment either. I just find Kubota's killing about twenty times more likely a fulfillment than any later event we've yet seen.

But I think we'll eventually find out. If it's my interpretation (Kubota's killing) is correct, we'll probably find out within the comic. If it's yours, I think eventually the Giant will tire out of us thinking him as intentionally misleading us, and he'll jump in with a Word of God, clarifying the situation in a forum post.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 03:30 PM

No. The silliness is in trying to parse the prophecy one word at a time rather than looking at the meaning of the statement as a whole.

Yeah, the meaning of the statement as a whole is that four words (which in some respects would be right, but their motivation would be wrong) would CAUSE him to have the power.

1) Kubota's killing fits -- even if David finds it too indirect causation for his tastes, that's just a matter of taste. It's not too indirect causation for my own tastes.
2) "I... I must succeed" on the other hand, doesn't fit nearly as well the meaning of the statement as a whole --- neither the contrast between wrong motivation and some other sort of "rightness", nor the causative element.

Bibliomancer

2009-06-28, 03:31 PM

Choosing the opinions of three specific "big name" posters to base a probability estimate upon means ignoring the opinions of all but those three. Verbosity doesn't necessarily equate to insight.

While verbosity doesn't necessarily equate with insight, it does indicate that they've been on forum (and so presumably have been analyzing the comic) for quite a while. Since these arguments are simply matters of opinion anyways, those who are most convincing are naturally more 'right' than others, given that they sway opinion (since none of this is based in hard fact and is merely extrapolation for events in the comic).

What is remarkable about the three of them agreeing is the fact that they are often on opposite sides in forum debates (an example is the Vaarsuvius and Xykon Speculation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115101) Thread) and so the three of them agreeing here is noteworthy, since they are well-known names in the playground. It also indicates the size of the majority opinion on this issue, which, for the record, I agree with. V has already received the closest thing to Ultimate Arcane Power that she's ever going to get, short of studying on the Astral Plane (if there is one in the Ootsverse) for the rest of eternity.

IMO - the red/blue orb thing is just too contrived for it to just be there, when Rich could have so easily writain in a 4-word form of acceptance, the whole purpose of the Orbs seems to be precisely engineered to prevent the events from fulfilling the prophecy.

Really? I thought it was used because the fiends disliked written contracts and wanted acceptance of the terms to be unambiguous. That, and as a way to introduce a matrix reference.

Random832

2009-06-28, 03:40 PM

the Astral Plane (if there is one in the Ootsverse) I told you, I was on the Astral Plane on business! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html)

Surprise!

2009-06-28, 04:26 PM

Wrong reasons: The alternate plan, despite (and especially) how unlikely it was to work tells V that there are other options. V accepts the deal for the power, not to save his family.

Not unlikely, *impossible*. Resurrection has a 10 minute casting time, plus a couple rounds for V to verbosely explain everything to a surprised dwarf. Then Sending casting. V's master receives, prepares and teleports out.

We are left with something in the neighborhood of 60 to 80 rounds of the Black Dragon with V's family.

No win scenario. That alternative plan was deliberately faulty whether or not she realized it at the time, making the choice to accept the IIFC's offer was the only one that could conceivably work.

Keeping it after she saved her mate was a wrong choice, but I fail to see any "All the Wrong reasons here"

Not to say that it wasn't the completion of the prophecy, but to say that the prophecy was fulfilled poorly. And given how much time there was to plan it there is no excuse.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 04:35 PM

Yeah, the meaning of the statement as a whole is that four words (which in some respects would be right, but their motivation would be wrong) would CAUSE him to have the power.

Nah. It was a statement that he would say four words to some being at some time, and then get the ultimate arcane power -- which he did.

Lissou

2009-06-28, 04:55 PM

The Extinguisher

2009-06-28, 05:05 PM

Not unlikely, *impossible*. Resurrection has a 10 minute casting time, plus a couple rounds for V to verbosely explain everything to a surprised dwarf. Then Sending casting. V's master receives, prepares and teleports out.

We are left with something in the neighborhood of 60 to 80 rounds of the Black Dragon with V's family.

No win scenario. That alternative plan was deliberately faulty whether or not she realized it at the time, making the choice to accept the IIFC's offer was the only one that could conceivably work.

Keeping it after she saved her mate was a wrong choice, but I fail to see any "All the Wrong reasons here"

Not to say that it wasn't the completion of the prophecy, but to say that the prophecy was fulfilled poorly. And given how much time there was to plan it there is no excuse.

But that is not the point! Presenting a plan that would have worked is just moronic.

Keep in mind, V did not know they had left, nor how long Resurrection took to cast. From his view, the plan was simply complicated, but possible.

The alternate plan was to let V know that leasing his soul was not the only option. They wanted him to accept the power for himself, not to save his family.

Consider what V said both times before going to touch the orb.

"As there is not even one way available to me to save the lives - nay the very souls - of my children, I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain."

"I... I must succeed"

Which one seems like the wrong reasons to you?

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-28, 05:17 PM

Nah. It was a statement that he would say four words to some being at some time, and then get the ultimate arcane power -- which he did.

It seems our disagreement goes beyond a mere dispute over the meaning of the prophecy -- your basic position is in fact that we must not give a damn about what the prophecy actually said at all.

Will no longer discussing this with you. Some people (like David, Sholos, etc) bring up actual arguments -- I may disagree with their logic, but atleast they bring up something to disagree with.

But you just don't actually care about any of this, and dismiss everything with a smirky "No, it wasn't, I'm obviously right because I'm obviously right, and you're silly to disagree with me. Words? Sentences? Meanings? Who cares about any of that - mere trivialities compared to my gut-feeling."

Nerdanel

2009-06-28, 05:22 PM

I agree. V hasn't gained ultimate power.

But personally, I'm still waiting for that horse to show up so Haley will get her speech back.

I would like to remind people that "looking a gift horse in the mouth" is an established idiom. I will only count this relevant to V's prophecy if someone can point me an idiom in V's prophecy. Without detectable idioms we have no choice but to interpret the prophecy literally, since the Oracle doesn't do metaphors.

Well, okay, some might want to imagine that Oracle went all metaphorical just this once and "four words" or something has some esoteric meaning, but I just can't see that.

spargel

2009-06-28, 05:27 PM

Nah. It was a statement that he would say four words to some being at some time, and then get the ultimate arcane power -- which he did.

This is ignoring details at its worst.

Consider what V said both times before going to touch the orb.

"As there is not even one way available to me to save the lives - nay the very souls - of my children, I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain."

"I... I must succeed"

Which one seems like the wrong reasons to you?

Neither of them seem to be wrong to me. One of them is just not as admirable as the other.

And I thought V made the deal because of both of those reasons.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 06:00 PM

It seems our disagreement goes beyond a mere dispute over the meaning of the prophecy -- your basic position is in fact that we must not give a damn about what the prophecy actually said at all.

Hardly. I quoted the prophecy upstream and indicated where I thought the strip was in accord with all the facets of the prophecy. You're hung up on the fact that V asked the question "How will I..." and that hence the four words *must* have been the causal link between not having power and having it. I think that is too strict an interpretation, and overlooks the massive indications that the giant put in the strip that the moment of Ultimate Arcane Power had, in fact, arrived.

Will no longer discussing this with you. Some people (like David, Sholos, etc) bring up actual arguments -- I may disagree with their logic, but atleast they bring up something to disagree with.

It breaks my heart. You know, there may be tears.

(Lighten up, will ya? We're discussing a webcomic here -- not trying to split the atom!)

But you just don't actually care about any of this, and dismiss everything with a smirky "No, it wasn't, I'm obviously right because I'm obviously right, and you're silly to disagree with me. Words? Sentences? Meanings? Who cares about any of that - mere trivialities compared to my gut-feeling."
So, you accuse me of being smirky and then mischaracterize my position like this? Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?

Thanatosia

2009-06-28, 07:06 PM

Hardly. I quoted the prophecy upstream and indicated where I thought the strip was in accord with all the facets of the prophecy. You're hung up on the fact that V asked the question "How will I..." and that hence the four words *must* have been the causal link between not having power and having it. I think that is too strict an interpretation, and overlooks the massive indications that the giant put in the strip that the moment of Ultimate Arcane Power had, in fact, arrived.
I dont think completely ignoring the question asked of the Oracle makes much of a case for the prophecy being fulfilled. The question is of course the thing that requires a causal link between the 4 words and the TUAP (could also make a case that the oracles use of the word "by" in his prophecy also implies a causal link, but this feels much more nit-picky and is the weaker argument IMO, but it is +1 evidence for a causality requirement and makes the causality link more consistant) - I just think there is a world of difference between 4 words causing something to happen, and 4 words occuring before something happens; but its a distinction that only matters if you accept causality as part of the prophecy.

That said, there's no problem with disagreements, and I'm sorry some of the posts here got kind of 'flamey'. :smallbiggrin:

drazen

2009-06-28, 07:35 PM

Far be it for a relatively green forum poster to go stumbling into a heated argument, but what the heck, I had to jump in here and throw my support to the vocal minority.

The prophecy was (1) _By_ saying the right four words (2) _to_ the right being (3) _at_ the right time (4) _for_ all the wrong reasons.

If one pays attention to those prepositions, only two, perhaps three at most, pertain to V's deal with the fiends. It's a stretch for Kubota, as V's two spells set into motion a chain of events, but for the fiends, the power was clearly acquired by touching the orb and NOT by speaking any four words. The fiends spelled it out in their terms. And they're three beings, not one. That V was convincing hirself is straining credulity the way the same way the Oracle's claims to Belkar were during his return visit. I'm not so sure, despite the comic title, that "desperation" is a wrong reason. Maybe "wanting to fix it hirself" was a wrong reason, but given that the other choice was kill hirself and be raised, counting on others, and was clearly a much riskier plan (which we know wouldn't work anyway), that's a stretch, too.

The fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecies is usually beyond question. The idiom for Haley is probably the weakest, but still works, but Belkar killed the Oracle, Durkon's will be clear, and Roy's should pop up in the next story. The one for V just doesn't work for the Oracle's language - the Oracle uses technical interpretations ("Where is Xykon?" "Cause the death") all the time, but a strict, technical interpretation of V's prophecy *effectively eliminates* hir deal with the fiends as a potential fulfillment of the prophecy.

I can see how it, or the Kubota events, could be seen to work; I'm just saying I don't think they fit the strictest standard.

LuisDantas

2009-06-28, 09:06 PM

Both Dragon and fiends were lurking offstage. That means that any time V was isolated from the others for even minutes, the dragon could attack, and then the fiends could make their offer, which would be accepted.

Yes, it would be accepted because Vaarsuvius created the conditions that made it attractive by slaying Kubota. That's my point.

Had V not killed Kubota, he would probably not have left Durkon and Elan before learning the news of Haley and Celia. Therefore, he would not have been alone and would not meet Qarr, the Ancient Black Dragon or the IFCC before being reunited with Haley and newly-ressurrected Roy.

In other words, all the reasons he had for accepting the Soul Splice deal would fail to exist had he not killed Kubota.

Of course this is not guaranteed. [The fiends had all six candidates in mind and might have offered to any of them who got desperate.]

Only one of those candidates had anything to do with Vaarsuvius' prophecy, of course: V himself.

But this pretty much limits any Kubota connection to V getting the offer on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.

If we leave aside that little detail that by "Tuesday" V would have no reason at all to either be offered or to accept the offer, then sure, you are quite correct.

And as mentioned, V doesn't seem to deem the Kubota incident as a serious reason for leaving, no more than the latest annoying incident that is interfering with her work, and likely not even that. So the connection between Kubota and the offer is quite weak.

That may be how V sees things, but it is also -and patently - quite untrue. It is possible that he remembers things in so biased a way that he doesn't recognize that killing Kubota made him receive and accept the deal. But his possible beliefs do not change the truth of the matter.

GreatWyrmGold

2009-06-28, 09:10 PM

So depending how the Oracle interpreted the words, it might very well mean the second version. Thats what I think anyway
And we know that the oracle has taken questions literally.
[url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html]Oracle:"Hey, 'In his throne room,' was a perfectly legitimate answer to the question, "Where is Xykon?"

But I think wizards aren't force to specialize, so there are others that can cast stuff from every school too. (might be wrong, but in any case, not really disagreeing with you on this one)
No, not all wizards specialise.

I'm still in the camp (dwindling though it seems) that says the four words were spoken, much earlier, to Kubota. "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."

"I... I must succeed" seem to me very irrelevant to V getting the power, despite the argument that he MUST say them to convince *himself*. At that point every defender of these words seems to be bending over backwards with flimsy explanations. How are the "right 4 words"? If he had not stuttered, and therefore they had been 3 word, would they have somehow been wrong?

If the prophecy was "four words to *a* person" then I might agree. But they must be the *right* words to the *right* person. The prophecy seems to indicates that the words will have been chosen correctly, and that the person they're spoken to will be the correct person to receive them -- just that V will be doing it for the wrong reason.

Those criteria are satisfied with Kubota -- V chose four very efficient words to get rid of Kubota, and Kubota very much deserved them. It was just that V was doing it for all the wrong reasons: sheer impatience, not the greater good.
The "Disintigrate, Gust of Wind" theory has two problems:
1. Do spells count as words? If V had cast, say, Magic Missile and Disintigrate, there would be a different number of spells to, essentially, the same effect.
2. (This is the big one) It did not lead to ultimate arcane power.
The best argument for, yes it did, is that it lead to V going to the island, accepting the deal, etc etc.
S/He would have gone anyway. Durkon and Elan being (in her/his mind) obstacles to her/his research was why s/he went to the island.
And it was four words. Count them.
1.) I
2.) I
3.) Must
4.) Suceed.
If V hadn't convinced her/himself, she might not have taken the deal. Who says that V can't be the right person?
If "I...I must suceed" isn't the four words, it's ared herring in the shape of the most power V will have in her/his life, with a -16 size modifier to AC.
Also, see this:

The words "gust of wind" were not said to anyone, as Kubota ceased to be after being disintegrated.. Ergo, that theory must be false.
[/QUOTE]Why did you have to say the same thing I did, but not let me notice it until I had typed my answer?

A mystic theurge like Tsukiko is underpowered...
Why? A cleric's major power source is spellcasting; wizards, not quite as much, but sorcerors, yep (and a sorceror can cast spontaneously, giving two sides to their power.) A 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorceror/10th-level mystic theurge casts spells as a 15th-level cleric/15th-level sorceror, with acess to all but the most powerful spells in both classes. In a three-character or less party, a mystic theurge is a godsend (no pun intended). Evem in larger groups, a pair of mystic theurges can accomplish at least as much as a cleric and a wizard.

This assumes there's more than one planet in this world.
[quote=Continued from above]People don't multiclass wizard and sorcerer because it's such a bad idea, even with the Ultimate Magus prestige class.
I have crazy multiclassed in the past, but, yeah, Sor/Wiz multiclassing is a no-go. (BTW, where's the Ultimate Magus PrC from?)
Other than that, good points.

Why do we assume the oracle is right at all anyway?
Because saying that prophesy X didn't work because of something like this would shatter our trust in anything Rich says. He'd need to be dumber than an ogre who put a roll of 3 into inteligence to do that. Some prophecies were fulfilled when in no way could the Order influence the outcome (the revised "Where is Xykon?", the gates question). Plus, if EVEN ONE of the prophesies turned out to be false, the oracle would be out of a job.
Also, see this:

We assume that because he's proven to be 100% accurate so far on those prophecies that have been fulfilled...he even knew to the exact moment when he would be killed by Belkar, so the Lizard Twins could teleport in and resurrect him.
Why did you have to say the same thing I did, but not let me notice it until I had typed my answer?

Of course, he won't get into the most heated debates...
I'd call this one "heated". The only other one with more theories is the MitD one (and half of those are jokes...giant space hampster?), and it seems that no one is taking this as a joke.

So, he deliberately spoke "I" two times? He deliberately said "I... I must succeed" instead of "I...I must not fail"?
Need I point out the difference between sucess and non-failure? S/he could have "not failed" by using the alternate plan involving suicide.

Please, consider it backwards. Imagine you know of no prophecy. But you know all the events that will take place. And imagine someone asked you "how will V achieve ultimate arcane power".

You would NEVER choose his saying "I... I must succeed" as the HOW of that question. You might very well have said perhaps "picking the right color for all the wrong reasons". But the words? You would have never chosen the words. And you would have never said things like "the right four words to the right person", if it's about someone convincing himself.

But if you decided that Kubota's killing was the crucial juncture point then, "saying the right four words to the right person for all the wrong reasons" perfectly describes what happened there.

You would have never chosen "I... I must succeed" as the crucial point. NEVER. And yet you're arguing that the Oracle (and the Giant) did. That they considered the words "I... I must succeed" more important than V touching the orbs, and more important that V asking the imp to send the application.
As has been mentioned, unless you can read the minds of everyone on this forum, DON'T say what we would/wouldn't do. Even so, I bet that if I started a thread about if Durkon was a dwarf, I would get posters against that. These people can't agree on ANYTHING.

So your argument is that they aren't said TO their target, they're said AT their target?

Yeah, let's just say that I don't care about the distinction between TO and AT.
No. Neither. They're said. Not to anyone, but said. The best way to say it might actually be to say that they are said NEAR their target.

Sholos

2009-06-28, 10:07 PM

Yeah, the meaning of the statement as a whole is that four words (which in some respects would be right, but their motivation would be wrong) would CAUSE him to have the power.

1) Kubota's killing fits -- even if David finds it too indirect causation for his tastes, that's just a matter of taste. It's not too indirect causation for my own tastes.
Then can I assume that you agreed with the Oracle that Belkar caused the deaths of both Roy and Miko? Because there's about the same level of causation in both cases.

2) "I... I must succeed" on the other hand, doesn't fit nearly as well the meaning of the statement as a whole --- neither the contrast between wrong motivation and some other sort of "rightness", nor the causative element.
Wrong motivation - desiring personal power to prove that he could do anything without needing help, as opposed to desiring personal power to save his family. Is it really that hard to see?

Causative element - excusing himself to take the deal
__________________________

Far be it for a relatively green forum poster to go stumbling into a heated argument, but what the heck, I had to jump in here and throw my support to the vocal minority.

The prophecy was (1) _By_ saying the right four words (2) _to_ the right being (3) _at_ the right time (4) _for_ all the wrong reasons.

If one pays attention to those prepositions, only two, perhaps three at most, pertain to V's deal with the fiends.
Well, I disagree, but I think it's pretty obvious at this point why.

It's a stretch for Kubota, as V's two spells set into motion a chain of events, but for the fiends, the power was clearly acquired by touching the orb and NOT by speaking any four words.
Except that V probably would not have accepted the deal without the verbal boosting. Haven't you ever in your entire life verbally talked yourself into doing something? Or heard of somebody doing it? It can't be that rare of a thing.

The fiends spelled it out in their terms. And they're three beings, not one. That V was convincing hirself is straining credulity the way the same way the Oracle's claims to Belkar were during his return visit.
I don't know why. People do it all the time. This isn't some rare event that only occurs a few times a decade. This is a daily event for millions (probably higher, but whatever) of people.

I'm not so sure, despite the comic title, that "desperation" is a wrong reason. Maybe "wanting to fix it hirself" was a wrong reason, but given that the other choice was kill hirself and be raised, counting on others, and was clearly a much riskier plan (which we know wouldn't work anyway), that's a stretch, too.
The reason "wanting to fix it himself" was a wrong reason was because it showed that V was obsessed with personal power, not necessarily saving his family.

The fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecies is usually beyond question. The idiom for Haley is probably the weakest, but still works, but Belkar killed the Oracle, Durkon's will be clear, and Roy's should pop up in the next story. The one for V just doesn't work for the Oracle's language - the Oracle uses technical interpretations ("Where is Xykon?" "Cause the death") all the time, but a strict, technical interpretation of V's prophecy *effectively eliminates* hir deal with the fiends as a potential fulfillment of the prophecy.
No, it doesn't, because V convincing himself to take the UAP is a clear causal relationship.

I can see how it, or the Kubota events, could be seen to work; I'm just saying I don't think they fit the strictest standard.
Eh, nothing said fulfillment of prophecy has to be exactly as you imagined it. I, for one, was expecting V to say something to somebody without knowing who he was talking to and somehow accidentally gaining power from it. My "wrong reasons" was more "didn't mean to gain power by this".
________________________

I would like to remind people that "looking a gift horse in the mouth" is an established idiom. I will only count this relevant to V's prophecy if someone can point me an idiom in V's prophecy. Without detectable idioms we have no choice but to interpret the prophecy literally, since the Oracle doesn't do metaphors.

This is actually the most important thing. The only time that V said exactly for words TO a single being that actually progressed him towards UAP was talking himself into taking the deal. Spells aren't said TO anyone, and even being gracious only allows the first to actually be said TO Kubota, because after that there was no Kubota to speak to.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 10:29 PM

The reason "wanting to fix it himself" was a wrong reason was because it showed that V was obsessed with personal power, not necessarily saving his family.

Reinforced in the subsequent strips by his refusal to release the splices even after his family was safe.

spargel

2009-06-28, 10:45 PM

Hardly. I quoted the prophecy upstream and indicated where I thought the strip was in accord with all the facets of the prophecy. You're hung up on the fact that V asked the question "How will I..." and that hence the four words *must* have been the causal link between not having power and having it. I think that is too strict an interpretation, and overlooks the massive indications that the giant put in the strip that the moment of Ultimate Arcane Power had, in fact, arrived.

That's like asking "How will I kill Xykon?" and getting the answer "By saying the right four words to him."

And then, right before you kill Xykon, you say something like "Time to die, Xykon" and then kill him with a sunburst, and claim that the prophecy is fulfilled.

That detail is pretty important.

Wrong motivation - desiring personal power to prove that he could do anything without needing help, as opposed to desiring personal power to save his family. Is it really that hard to see?

I was under the assumption that people usually do things for multiple reasons. He didn't go and try to bargain with fiends until after his family was threatened.

Except that V probably would not have accepted the deal without the verbal boosting. Haven't you ever in your entire life verbally talked yourself into doing something? Or heard of somebody doing it? It can't be that rare of a thing.

Never happened to me. I didn't really even expect V to hesitate before taking the deal.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-28, 11:06 PM

That's like asking "How will I kill Xykon?" and getting the answer "By saying the right four words to him."

And then, right before you kill Xykon, you say something like "Time to die, Xykon" and then kill him with a sunburst, and claim that the prophecy is fulfilled.

That detail is pretty important.

Wait a minute -- are you really saying that if there were a prophecy about killing Xykon that you would be picking nits with it after Xykon was dead? Wouldn't Xykon's death show beyond any shadow of a doubt that the prophecy had, in some way, been fullfilled?

That's really what this is about, to me. It seems so clear that the Giant intended this experience with the soul splices to represent the Ultimate Arcane Power that V was seeking. Given that, the events that led to it have to be the events that the oracle was describing, don't they?

The primary way to know that the prophecy has been fulfilled is that the event that it foretold has, you know, happened. Like Haley and her voice -- once she got her voice back, it was clear that she "hadn't looked the gift horse in the mouth" (or whatever -- don't really recall the exact wording and too tired to look it up). We knew the prophecy was fullfilled because she got her voice back, and we could shoehorn the events that preceeded it into the vague prediction of the oracle.

In my opinion, the same holds true here. The giant gives us a clue that the strip where V accepts the power, he is accepting it for the wrong reasons -- the title of that strip, the fiends' alternative plan, and V's unwillingness to abandon power. The giant also indicates, through the fiends' dialogue, that V wields more power than any mortal ever has before -- ultimate power. If V is weilding ultimate power, than the prophecy has been fullfilled -- it is what he asked about, after all.

spargel

2009-06-28, 11:28 PM

Wait a minute -- are you really saying that if there were a prophecy about killing Xykon that you would be picking nits with it after Xykon was dead? Wouldn't Xykon's death show beyond any shadow of a doubt that the prophecy had, in some way, been fullfilled?

I would assume that the prophecy was meant to be fulfilled, but the author screwed up with it.

In Xykon's case, he's already technically dead, and it's possible for him to come back to life.

That's really what this is about, to me. It seems so clear that the Giant intended this experience with the soul splices to represent the Ultimate Arcane Power that V was seeking. Given that, the events that led to it have to be the events that the oracle was describing, don't they?

If V ever gets more power than she did during the soul splice, then no.

The primary way to know that the prophecy has been fulfilled is that the event that it foretold has, you know, happened. Like Haley and her voice -- once she got her voice back, it was clear that she "hadn't looked the gift horse in the mouth" (or whatever -- don't really recall the exact wording and too tired to look it up). We knew the prophecy was fullfilled because she got her voice back, and we could shoehorn the events that preceeded it into the vague prediction of the oracle.

The gift horse thing was a prophecy?

In my opinion, the same holds true here. The giant gives us a clue that the strip where V accepts the power, he is accepting it for the wrong reasons -- the title of that strip, the fiends' alternative plan, and V's unwillingness to abandon power. The giant also indicates, through the fiends' dialogue, that V wields more power than any mortal ever has before -- ultimate power. If V is weilding ultimate power, than the prophecy has been fullfilled -- it is what he asked about, after all.

My opinion is that the author probably intended for the prophecy to be fulfilled, but did it in an awkward way that leaves some holes in it.

Nimrod's Son

2009-06-28, 11:53 PM

How are the "right 4 words"? If he had not stuttered, and therefore they had been 3 word, would they have somehow been wrong?
Nope. If V hadn't hesitated (as distinct from "stuttered", you understand), then the Oracle's prediction would have been, "By saying the right three words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

You have to look at this from the opposite end to where you currently are. Rich already knew that "I... I must succeed" was what V was going to say before he drew the strips with the Oracle. It wasn't a case of writing the prophecy and then, a couple of years down the line, trying to shoehorn in a way to fulfill it. What actually happened was he planned the IFCC scene as it has been shown (or near as dammit) and then wrote a prophecy to describe it.

In-comic, the Oracle works the same way. He sees what happens, then he describes it. The amount of words V said when taking the deal is irrelevant; it's the outcome that matters. I know you dislike the idea of circular thinking but it's a little hard to avoid when you're talking about being able to see into the future.

For the record, I believe them to be "the right words", but by no means the ONLY POSSIBLE right words. V needed convincing; V then did that convincing on his own by saying those words to himself. That is what makes them the right words. He COULD have said "I will not fail!" or even "I can, under no circumstances, allow myself to appear weak by not removing all possible obstacles in my path with my own hands!". Those would both have been "the right words". But in the case of the latter example, the Oracle would have had to adjust the wording of his prophecy to get the word count right.

Kish

2009-06-28, 11:59 PM

As has been mentioned, unless you can read the minds of everyone on this forum, DON'T say what we would/wouldn't do. Even so, I bet that if I started a thread about if Durkon was a dwarf, I would get posters against that. These people can't agree on ANYTHING.
Well, there is no consensus that Haley is a human.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-29, 05:14 AM

That's really what this is about, to me. It seems so clear that the Giant intended this experience with the soul splices to represent the Ultimate Arcane Power that V was seeking.

If that's really what this is for you, then why have you spent so much time arguing that "I... I must succeed" are the four words in question -- an issue that's utterly irrelevant to whether Ultimate Arcane Power was achieved or not?

Why have you spent time arguing against the Kubota interpretation of the prophecy, when I never argued against V having achieved UAP, when it's only the Ultimate Arcane Power that this is about, for you, and NOT which four words actually caused it to happen?

Or did you never even bother to read what I was saying, you merely ASSUMED that I was arguing against V having gotten the power?

Damn it, you're so horribly frustrating.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-29, 05:23 AM

It wasn't a case of writing the prophecy and then, a couple of years down the line, trying to shoehorn in a way to fulfill it. What actually happened was he planned the IFCC scene as it has been shown (or near as dammit) and then wrote a prophecy to describe it.

In a previous post that's exactly the argument that I made, but with the opposite conclusion: That if the Giant planned the scene first, then this prophecy was an very weak and inelegant way of describing the event -- but the prophecy was an very elegant and detailed way of describing the Kubota killing. And that's partly why I believe it's a description of the Kubota killing, not of "I... I must succeed".

Of course some people's self-admitted tactics (like ArcadiaGM) are to make assumptions first and THEN try to shoehorn facts into what they already assume. There's no arguing with them, because making arguments is not what they're about, they're about shoehorning things. They're the sort of people who believe in Nostradamus, because they can just as easily shoehorn *his* predictions into events.

Nerdanel

2009-06-29, 05:44 AM

The prophecy has "...for all the wrong reasons." I think the worst we can say about V at the time of accepting the splice is that he had bad reasons mixed with the good. The fiends' alternate plan had tons of places where it could go wrong, while the splice plan was both simple and effective. If V truly was willing to risk anything to save his children's souls, the splice was still the way to go.

I most definitely do not agree that "I... I must succeed" were the for words. "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." would be my candidate if I thought the splice was Total and Complete Ultimate Arcane Power since the circumstances actually fit the prophecy. But since the splice seems more like Incomplete and Partial Semi-Ultimate Arcane Power I think that's unlikely.

I think even "My power exceeds yours" is a more likely candidate than "I... I must succeed".

Re: Mystic Theurge,

On level 16 when Tsukiko gets to complete the prestige class, she is effectively a level 13 wizard and level 13 cleric. A pure wizard would be one level away from casting awesome ninth level spells while Tsukiko just got herself some seventh level spells. Since spells increase quadratically in power, this is bad. Tsukiko also is dependent on both intelligence and wisdom for her spellcasting and wants both as high as possible. Instead of investing in either a headband of intellect or a periapt of wisdom she wants both, and with two casting stats she has to choose which one to increase when she gets a level-up bonus and which to let stay unimproved.

A mystic theurge is not pure stupidity but it is a bit underpowered.

A link to Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3).

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 06:09 AM

If that's really what this is for you, then why have you spent so much time arguing that "I... I must succeed" are the four words in question -- an issue that's utterly irrelevant to whether Ultimate Arcane Power was achieved or not?

Why have you spent time arguing against the Kubota interpretation of the prophecy, when I never argued against V having achieved UAP, when it's only the Ultimate Arcane Power that this is about, for you, and NOT which four words actually caused it to happen?

Huh? Are you actually reading my posts? I haven't mentioned -- even once -- Kubota, "Disintegrate. Dust of Wind." or anything else from that strip. I don't know why you would be saying that I have spent time arguing against the "Kubota interpretation".

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 06:14 AM

Of course some people's self-admitted tactics (like ArcadiaGM) are to make assumptions first and THEN try to shoehorn facts into what they already assume. There's no arguing with them, because making arguments is not what they're about, they're about shoehorning things.

If you're going to call that a "self-admitted tactic", could you indicate to me where I admitted anything of the sort? I have presented facts (the prophecy from the oracle, the fiends dialogue, etc), shared how I interpreted those facts, and my conclusion. If you don't consider that an argument, I really don't know what to say.

They're the sort of people who believe in Nostradamus, because they can just as easily shoehorn *his* predictions into events.

For what its worth, Aris, I'm a card-carrying skeptic, an atheist, and don't believe in anything supernatural. So, on the one hand, this assertion is insulting, and on the other hand it is incredibly far off the mark. I guess your epic-level "read between the lines" skill has failed you.

LuisDantas

2009-06-29, 06:16 AM

I most definitely do not agree that "I... I must succeed" were the for words. "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." would be my candidate if I thought the splice was Total and Complete Ultimate Arcane Power since the circumstances actually fit the prophecy. But since the splice seems more like Incomplete and Partial Semi-Ultimate Arcane Power I think that's unlikely.

Vaarsuvius' question was "how" he would achieve UAP, not "if" he would. Knowing that V had banned schools and that the splice would temporarily allow him to overcome that limitation and a few others, besides making his spell slots higher and more plentiful than he is likely to ever reach on his own, I feel that the Splice was the most UAP V will ever have.

drazen

2009-06-29, 07:06 AM

Except that V probably would not have accepted the deal without the verbal boosting. Haven't you ever in your entire life verbally talked yourself into doing something? Or heard of somebody doing it? It can't be that rare of a thing.

Well, technically, this would depend on your interpretation of free will - there are some that would say that it's an illusion and that free will is us rationalizing a decision after it's been made subconsciously.

And convincing hirself still only compelled V to touch the orb. It was the act of touching the orb that boosted V's power. That is the "how." It cannot be more clear, logically, that this is "how" the power was obtained, because NOT touching the red orb meant NOT getting the power. V's "convincing" hirself to do it (an idea I find to be a stretch, as V had a _right_ reason for wanting this power to go along with the wrong ones) is not the same thing as actually doing it. Convincing hirself to go along set in motion a chain of events, but that is not a "how." It is a "why."

The reason "wanting to fix it himself" was a wrong reason was because it showed that V was obsessed with personal power, not necessarily saving his family.

Except that the first thing V did was to save hir family, and the reason V wanted to expedite hir rise to power was to save them. V had no reason to _rush_ in hir search for power until hir loved ones were threatened.

...

V also did not necessarily achieve ultimate arcane power. V achieved unprecedented arcane power, but unprecedented != ultimate (for example, you could have unprecedented computing speed, but that does not make it the ultimate theoretically possible). While it was very very high, it could conceivably have been higher, had it come in some other form. Xykon specifically made a point of telling V that for all hir spells, V never *really* had any power in the first place - presumably because it was so easily stripped from hir. It took Xykon, what, three or four spells to pretty much neutralize this supposed ultimate power? Energy Drain, Maximized Energy Drain, Still Meteor Swarm (which was just defensive for him), and Superb Dispelling. That's it.

I suspect V's true ultimate arcane power will come when the fiends call in their debt. She could say something like, "I'll pay you now." And she could then be spliced again, but with them in control of the gestalt. The kobold never said V would actually be able to control hir "ultimate arcane power," just that V would achieve it.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-29, 07:41 AM

Huh? Are you actually reading my posts? I haven't mentioned -- even once -- Kubota, "Disintegrate. Dust of Wind." or anything else from that strip. I don't know why you would be saying that I have spent time arguing against the "Kubota interpretation".

Since you've been arguing vehemently in favour of the "I... I must succeed" interpretation (to the point that you called it silliness to disagree with it), then by definition you've been arguing equally vehemently against the "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." interpretation.

Basically you were arguing against me without even bothering to realize what my argument was.

If you're going to call that a "self-admitted tactic", could you indicate to me where I admitted anything of the sort?

Here's where:

We knew the prophecy was fullfilled because she got her voice back, and we could shoehorn the events that preceeded it into the vague prediction of the oracle.

In this paragraph you admit that you begin with an assumption (prophecy has been fullfilled!), and then you go backwards to SHOEHORN events, in order to show that it has been fulfilled.

dr.cello

2009-06-29, 08:04 AM

Is it really so hard to believe the Giant would put a red herring out for something like this, especially if he had something even cooler planned down the line?

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 08:37 AM

Basically you were arguing against me without even bothering to realize what my argument was.
Not the case.

In this paragraph you admit that you begin with an assumption (prophecy has been fullfilled!), and then you go backwards to SHOEHORN events, in order to show that it has been fulfilled.

I really don't see how you call the prophecy fullfillment an "assumption". The prophecy was about Haley getting her voice back, and she got her voice back. I don't think that it was in question that the prophecy had been satisfied.

You may disagree, I suppose, but it seems to me that it is a reasonable proposition that if there is a prophecy about some event happening and subsequently that event does, in fact, happen, that there are only two possible conclusions:

A) The prophecy has been fullfilled.
B) The prophecy was wrong.

(This is of course allowing that prophecy is possible in the first place, a conceit that I accept for this story, but obviously not for the real world.)

I reject conclusion B out of hand for this story, because nothing in the story has indicated the Oracle's possible fallability. Therefore, if the Oracle predicts the manner in which V will achieve UAP, and V does achieve UAP, then the prophecy has been fullfilled, and it is valid to interpret the actions that led to the achievement of the prophecy's objectives in that light. If there is more than one possible interpretation of the prophecy, then the one that fits the actions in the story are the correct interpretation because the event that the prophecy predicted has come to pass.

If you want me to speak to "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," I will. I don't see how those can be the four words because they lack any sort of dramatic connection to the achievement of the UAP. "I...I must succeed" is included in the very scene where the power was achieved in a strip titled "The Wrong Reasons", three clear and unambiguous clues that connect these words to the prophecy. They are the words spoken by Varsuuvius as he acknowledges the fiends' deal and accepts the power.

I will persist in saying that insisting on a causal connection because the Oracle used a particular preposition ("by") is a case of not being able to see the the forest for the trees.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 08:40 AM

Is it really so hard to believe the Giant would put a red herring out for something like this, especially if he had something even cooler planned down the line?

Yes, at least for me. As I said upthread, even if the Giant has something cooler planned down the line -- a genuine possibility given the fiends' hold on Varsuuvius and the ability for the gates to be tapped for power in some way -- it is clear that the Giant intends for this to be interpreted as fullfillment of the prophecy. The in-strip clues as well as the title "The Wrong Reasons" make this clear.

Nerdanel

2009-06-29, 09:11 AM

You may disagree, I suppose, but it seems to me that it is a reasonable proposition that if there is a prophecy about some event happening and subsequently that event does, in fact, happen, that there are only two possible conclusions:

A) The prophecy has been fullfilled.
B) The prophecy was wrong.

Option C: the event or something resembling it will happen multiple times, with the prophecy referring to one of them.

For example, if Haley got her voice back for no particular reason in a situation that did not involve anything resembling a metaphorical gift horse being accepted without scrutiny, either the prophecy was wrong or Haley is scheduled to lose and regain her voice again somewhere along the line.

For a better example, if there is a prohecy that a particular kingdom will win a great victory at the moment of a total solar eclipse, I would not start calling the prophecy fulfilled the first time the kingdom wins a significant victory of some sort, presenting arguments like "it was somewhat cloudy, that's eclipse enough" or "it never said the eclipse would have to be visible on planet Earth" or some such thing, especially when the prophet has been known for his simple, no-nonsense answers.

Claiming "I... I must succeed" are the four words is forcing a square peg to a round hole.

KyrtFurey

2009-06-29, 09:22 AM

It's a stretch for Kubota, as V's two spells set into motion a chain of events, but for the fiends, the power was clearly acquired by touching the orb and NOT by speaking any four words.

The words signify V actually persuading himself to touch the orbs. If he didn't choose to touch the orbs, he wouldn't have gained the power. Convincing himself to do something he knew was wrong was thus necessary.

And they're three beings, not one. That V was convincing hirself is straining credulity the way the same way the Oracle's claims to Belkar were during his return visit.

Actually - this one is stronger. V need to say four words to one being. He needed to convince himself and those four words signified that acceptance.

I'm not so sure, despite the comic title, that "desperation" is a wrong reason. Maybe "wanting to fix it hirself" was a wrong reason, but given that the other choice was kill hirself and be raised, counting on others, and was clearly a much riskier plan (which we know wouldn't work anyway), that's a stretch, too.

Desperation wasn't the wrong reason.

Doing it for power was. The fiends spelled out an alternative plan which V considered likely enough to be a realistic alternative. In accepting this, he'd have to accept that magic wasn't the answer, that magic had failed - that HE had failed

V accepted the fiends offer even though he believed there were other options available. And in so doing, made the choice not for the right reasons -saving his family - but for the wrong ones - gaining power for himself.

EJL

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 09:26 AM

Option C: the event or something resembling it will happen multiple times, with the prophecy referring to one of them.
I'll accept this; I posted as much upthread.

For example, if Haley got her voice back for no particular reason in a situation that did not involve anything resembling a metaphorical gift horse being accepted without scrutiny, either the prophecy was wrong or Haley is scheduled to lose and regain her voice again somewhere along the line.
I suppose, but assert that if it had played out like that in the comic it would be terrible writing. I assert that when Haley recovered from her "cryptograhic aphasia" it was reasonable to go looking for the clues, and not insist on a strictly-literal interpretation of the Oracle's remarks. The predicted thing had happened; it must have, from a dramatic perspective, been what the Oracle had spoken of. While it may be logically possible for the Oracle to have been speaking of some time in the future when Haley would once again lose and regain her voice, it doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective.

For a better example, if there is a prohecy that a particular kingdom will win a great victory at the moment of a total solar eclipse, I would not start calling the prophecy fulfilled the first time the kingdom wins a significant victory of some sort, presenting arguments like "it was somewhat cloudy, that's eclipse enough" or "it never said the eclipse would have to be visible on planet Earth" or some such thing, especially when the prophet has been known for his simple, no-nonsense answers.
This is quite reasonable. If the events did not fit at all, then it would be reasonable to question whether this was the predicted moment or not. I question that the last clause applies to the Oracle, however, or to predictions in general in the OOTS story.

Claiming "I... I must succeed" are the four words is forcing a square peg to a round hole.
Four words, spoken as V assumes great power for all the wrong reasons are hardly a square peg.

Random832

2009-06-29, 09:32 AM

V accepted the fiends offer even though he believed there were other options available.

I got the impression that the words in question were actually a rejection of the idea that their alternate plan was viable. And we can hardly blame him for that - I mean, they were lying (by omission, at least, about the casting time for resurrection)

Xapi

2009-06-29, 11:09 AM

Of course, he won't get into the most heated debates...
I'd call this one "heated". The only other one with more theories is the MitD one (and half of those are jokes...giant space hampster?), and it seems that no one is taking this as a joke.

Out of context and irrelevant.

I wasn't saying that he doesn't get into the most heated debates because they are the most heated debates, but because he is deliberately witholding the truth from his readers.

I don't care if this is one of the most heated debates or not, my point is that if the prophecy is fulfilled, then why wouldn't he just say it?

And, again, I believe the prophecy has been fullfilled as stated. But the fact that there isn't a Word of God on the matter, wich would tone down a lot of useless forum speculation, makes me wonder if there isn't a twist coming our way.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 11:12 AM

But the fact that there isn't a Word of God on the matter, wich would tone down a lot of useless forum speculation, makes me wonder if there isn't a twist coming our way.

A twist perhaps, but it might also be the case that a character in the story will acknowledge that the prophecy was fullfilled. It could easily work in to Vs retelling of what happened to him.

Xapi

2009-06-29, 11:22 AM

A twist perhaps, but it might also be the case that a character in the story will acknowledge that the prophecy was fullfilled. It could easily work in to Vs retelling of what happened to him.

Yes, but then the discussions would continue by people who say "V THINKS it was fulfilled, like Roy and the goat foreshdowing" and we're back to square one.

dr.cello

2009-06-29, 11:58 AM

Yes, at least for me. As I said upthread, even if the Giant has something cooler planned down the line -- a genuine possibility given the fiends' hold on Varsuuvius and the ability for the gates to be tapped for power in some way -- it is clear that the Giant intends for this to be interpreted as fullfillment of the prophecy. The in-strip clues as well as the title "The Wrong Reasons" make this clear.

You are familiar with the concept of a red herring, yes?

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-29, 01:31 PM

You are familiar with the concept of a red herring, yes?

Yes, but in my mind the title of that comic pretty much precludes that. It would be playing fair to give us false clues inside the comic, but false clues from meta-information (like the title of any given strip) I don't see as playing fair. I don't believe the Giant would do that.

dr.cello

2009-06-29, 01:36 PM

Yes, but in my mind the title of that comic pretty much precludes that. It would be playing fair to give us false clues inside the comic, but false clues from meta-information (like the title of any given strip) I don't see as playing fair. I don't believe the Giant would do that.

See, to me, the title of the strip is the most obvious cue that it is, in fact, a red herring. Without the title it seems highly unlikely nearly so many people would believe this was the fulfilment of the prophecy (due to the highly tenuous nature of all of the other clues). With the title it seems like the Giant clearly wants people to think that this is the fulfilment of the prophecy, but he has not, in fact, acknowledged that it is.

Optimystik

2009-06-29, 01:53 PM

See, to me, the title of the strip is the most obvious cue that it is, in fact, a red herring. Without the title it seems highly unlikely nearly so many people would believe this was the fulfilment of the prophecy (due to the highly tenuous nature of all of the other clues). With the title it seems like the Giant clearly wants people to think that this is the fulfilment of the prophecy, but he has not, in fact, acknowledged that it is.

And yet the Giant's track record has been using strip titles to settle debates, not cause them. We have the strip where Haley overcomes her aphasia ("Truth"), the strip where Miko dies with her aspirations unfulfilled ("Not For Everyone"), The strip where Belkar fulfills his own prophecy ("The Simplest Explanation"), The strip where Roy bypasses the Oracle's memory charm ("The Persistence of Memory," recently shown to have been true) and finally, this very strip ("But Seriously, She Won't") pre-empting all the "Haley will betray everyone!" threads. So calling this one particular instance a red herring is quite unsubstantiated.

Weimann

2009-06-29, 02:40 PM

I haven't read the thread, but my take on it is this:

It all depends on how you define a lot of things, not the least of those the words in the prophecy itself ("right" and "wrong" are suspiciously close to the phrases "good" and "evil" in the alignment system (by which I mean, equally ambiguous, and in no way implying they'd be standins in their actual meaning)), and also what context you put it into. As has been shown, great power doesn't mean that you will automatically achieve your goals (unless the power itself was the goal, but come on, surely we think higher about Rich than that), and thus, you wonder if it really was ultimate arcane power, if it was at all possible to fail.

I have no opinion on this. Time will tell, or not. For me, its not a relevant discussion, but if I got to wish I'd like to see V being back to mortal level again.

Rotipher

2009-06-29, 03:08 PM

That if the Giant planned the scene first, then this prophecy was an very weak and inelegant way of describing the event -- but the prophecy was an very elegant and detailed way of describing the Kubota killing. And that's partly why I believe it's a description of the Kubota killing, not of "I... I must succeed".

Heck, if we're really going to talk about "elegance" and disregard immediacy, by following your chain of reasoning in all respects, then we'd have to conclude that the true "four words" are none other than:

Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit

They're said to "the right being" -- being, not a pile of ashes -- namely Qarr, whose presence will facilitate V's contacting the fiends.

They're said "at the right time", namely when Qarr is on the brink of leaving the island, having answered his question about what V was doing there.

They're "the right words", in that they convince Qarr that V isn't just tough, but vindictively tough -- an indication that V may be susceptible to the imp's temptations -- and has more of a sense of humor than Qarr's last boss, whom he was rather fed up with. It also shows that V has enough magic to waste on petty insults, which Qarr himself admits makes the elf an especially valuable "client". Hence, he sticks around instead of teleporting away from the island, and is available to file V's request for diabolic intervention.

And they're said for "the wrong reasons", namely to be a jerkass and belittle the value of potential allies, or anyone or anything but personal arcane power, which is V's perennial error as demonstrated by Xykon.

Now, me, I don't believe that "Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit" was anything but a joke. But the very logic by which "Disintegrate. Gust Of Wind." can be forced to fit, however imperfectly, makes the former four words fit better. Yet I doubt if the elegance of the BESD match is likely to convince you, given the inherent inelegance of the conclusion that flipping off a nosy imp can be the long-awaited secret key to Ultimate Arcane Power, except perhaps metaphorically.

Optimystik

2009-06-29, 03:33 PM

*snipped for length*

Congratulations, you made me spray coke on my keyboard :smallbiggrin:

dr.cello

2009-06-29, 10:06 PM

And yet the Giant's track record has been using strip titles to settle debates, not cause them. We have the strip where Haley overcomes her aphasia ("Truth"), the strip where Miko dies with her aspirations unfulfilled ("Not For Everyone"), The strip where Belkar fulfills his own prophecy ("The Simplest Explanation"), The strip where Roy bypasses the Oracle's memory charm ("The Persistence of Memory," recently shown to have been true) and finally, this very strip ("But Seriously, She Won't") pre-empting all the "Haley will betray everyone!" threads. So calling this one particular instance a red herring is quite unsubstantiated.

Unless you don't think those were specifically intended to "settle debates," but rather, as titles which are simply appropriate to the strip. None of the previous titles seem in any way like the Giant is attempting to settle a debate; even the latest is clearly just a joking add-on, not something intended to forestall debate about it.

In this particular instance you have a title which essentially flies in the face of the clues present. But the Giant has masterfully filled the comic with enough red herring clues that the mind that is really looking for them can easily convince itself not only that this is the fulfilment of the prophecy, but that it is self-evidently so.

See, I believe that were it not for the strip's title, very few people indeed would be making the assertion that this was the fulfilment of the prophecy. The facts just don't add up to that on their own:

-the four words are clearly unnecessary even if this is the acquisition of UAP, hence establishing that "by saying the right four words" is not correct.
-the Giant very clearly and obviously went out of his way to make sure the contract was not signed verbally
-there were three fiends, which makes the only possible "being" V could be speaking to V, which is tenuous at best

For whatever reason, the Giant wanted people to follow this particular red herring. On its own you would maybe have a few adherents to the idea. Maybe. But with the title, people are arguing that it's self-evidently true, picking up all of the tenuous false clues he left along as solid evidence, when really it's circumstantial at best.

The brilliant thing is, you can't prove a negative, though the whole "non-verbal contract made with three beings" thing comes pretty close. So the "this is the fulfilment" advocates, believing they have self-evidently found the truth, feel content with asserting their claims as an argument, placing the burden of proof on anyone else to prove that nothing of the sort happened.

Kish

2009-06-29, 10:41 PM

See, I believe that were it not for the strip's title, very few people indeed would be making the assertion that this was the fulfilment of the prophecy.
Can't address how many people would, but, just for the record, I would.

David Argall

2009-06-30, 01:27 AM

Yes, it would be accepted because Vaarsuvius created the conditions that made it attractive by slaying Kubota. That's my point.

Had V not killed Kubota, he would probably not have left Durkon and Elan before learning the news of Haley and Celia. Therefore, he would not have been alone and would not meet Qarr, the Ancient Black Dragon or the IFCC before being reunited with Haley and newly-ressurrected Roy.
There are at least two major problems with this idea.
1-When V leaves, he explains why. She does not list Kubota as a factor, not even indirectly. By the available evidence, we can see V as leaving because of the fuss the trial would cause.
2-There is no deadline on Qarr, ABD, or the fiends. They are each trying to get to V, and the most Kubota can do is decide when they meet him. There is no requirement that this all happen before the message from Hailey comes in. V can easily get ambushed on the way to Haley, or, having raised Roy, on the way to the Western lands, or... At any of these times, or other times, V might be apart from the party, approached by Qarr, then beaten by the dragon who promises to kill and torture her family, following which the fiends show up and V makes a deal.

Sholos

2009-06-30, 01:35 AM

Can't address how many people would, but, just for the record, I would.

As would I.

And, really, if what happened on the island wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy, then "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," obviously weren't the words. If what happened on the island was the fulfillment of the prophecy, there's far more evidence pointing to "I... I must succeed," (or even to "Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit") than to "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."

Also, if you're saying that "I... I must succeed," was unnecessary for the gain of UAP, there's no way you can make a logical argument that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," is any more necessary. What if, instead, V had said, "Finger of Death," and then dumped the body over? There's any number of other spell combinations, I'm sure.

LuisDantas

2009-06-30, 07:09 AM

There are at least two major problems with this idea.

Let's see.

1-When V leaves, he explains why. She does not list Kubota as a factor, not even indirectly. By the available evidence, we can see V as leaving because of the fuss the trial would cause.

Not a problem, since there is no reason to expect V to list all significant factor - or even one, to be fair; he does not explicitly mention his guilt or his pride either, you will notice.

2-There is no deadline on Qarr, ABD, or the fiends. They are each trying to get to V, and the most Kubota can do is decide when they meet him. There is no requirement that this all happen before the message from Hailey comes in.

Wrong. There is indeed a deadline, and they all nearly missed it. Hadn't they all acted in the small window of opportunity that was opened between V leaving Durkon and Elan and Haley sending her call, V would not be alone and would be far less vulnerable to their manipulations.

V can easily get ambushed on the way to Haley, or, having raised Roy, on the way to the Western lands, or... At any of these times, or other times, V might be apart from the party, approached by Qarr, then beaten by the dragon who promises to kill and torture her family, following which the fiends show up and V makes a deal.

If we assume that the ABD and the IFCC are willing and able to wait for such an opportunity, that is.

For all we know, they can not afford to; after all, the Snarl has grown considerably already.

LuisDantas

2009-06-30, 07:19 AM

As would I.

And, really, if what happened on the island wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy, then "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," obviously weren't the words. If what happened on the island was the fulfillment of the prophecy, there's far more evidence pointing to "I... I must succeed," (or even to "Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit") than to "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."

If the question made to the Oracle was about when he would attain UAP, then I would agree with you. But since it was instead how, then it must be either BESD or DGOW, for there are no other fitting candidates.

Also, if you're saying that "I... I must succeed," was unnecessary for the gain of UAP,

Which it was, from the available evidence.

there's no way you can make a logical argument that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," is any more necessary.

I respectfully disagree, unless you mean to separate the act of killing Kubota from the means by which he did.

What if, instead, V had said, "Finger of Death," and then dumped the body over? There's any number of other spell combinations, I'm sure.

Very true. But the Oracle IS making a prophecy, after all; he knows how things will turn out, down to details that could very well turn out differently.

dr.cello

2009-06-30, 08:34 AM

Also, if you're saying that "I... I must succeed," was unnecessary for the gain of UAP, there's no way you can make a logical argument that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," is any more necessary. What if, instead, V had said, "Finger of Death," and then dumped the body over? There's any number of other spell combinations, I'm sure.

See, I remain unconvinced that V has attained UAP--I think that it's reasonably clear from the Giant's handling of the situation that this arc was not intended to represent that. As I believe I mentioned earlier, while the "V has a soul splice" arc was going on, I was still waiting for the moment where ze achieved UAP to happen. It didn't occur to me that this was intended to be it.

But if it is the case, I feel "Disintegrate etc." makes more sense than "I... I must succeed," by virtue of having a causal connection, however elaborate.

The test for whether something is necessary is not "would it have worked if V had said something else?" but "would it have worked if absolutely nothing had been said?" V could have finalized a non-verbal contract without declaring hir need to succeed. It was non-verbal. No words were necessary. Just take the word bubble out of the comic and it works fine.

If something is caused by saying the right four words, those four words usually need to have some property about them that might effect change in the environment. Spells naturally fulfil this requirement, as do performative utterances ("I accept the contract" would have worked were it a verbal contract). Something such as "I... I must succeed?" Not so much.

Kish

2009-06-30, 12:32 PM

The test for whether something is necessary is not "would it have worked if V had said something else?" but "would it have worked if absolutely nothing had been said?" V could have finalized a non-verbal contract without declaring hir need to succeed. It was non-verbal. No words were necessary. Just take the word bubble out of the comic and it works fine.
Does it work, as in Rich could write that? Certainly.

Does it work, as in it conveys the exact same events? No. Vaarsuvius accepts the contract with no need to reassure himself/herself and the forum fills with arguments about whether s/he is motivated by ego or having cleverly seen through the fiends' false dangling of a plan that wouldn't work. (Not, ah, that the forum hasn't filled with those arguments anyway, to a lesser extent.)

Does it work, as in do we have anything close to a consensus that Vaarsuvius would have touched the blue orb if s/he had not first asserted, "I...I must succeed"? Certainly not.

Optimystik

2009-06-30, 12:42 PM

See, I remain unconvinced that V has attained UAP--I think that it's reasonably clear from the Giant's handling of the situation that this arc was not intended to represent that. As I believe I mentioned earlier, while the "V has a soul splice" arc was going on, I was still waiting for the moment where ze achieved UAP to happen. It didn't occur to me that this was intended to be it.

Why do you think he didn't attain UAP?

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 01:14 PM

Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit

They're said to "the right being" -- being, not a pile of ashes -- namely Qaal, whose presence will facilitate V's contacting the fiends.

Therefore not "right" in any way, except by circular definition.

They're said "at the right time", namely when Qaal is on the brink of leaving the island, having answered his question about what V was doing there.

Therefore not actually right in any way at all.

They're "the right words", in that they convince Qaal that V isn't just tough, but vindictively tough

Which is again not "right" in any meaningful way.

Yet I doubt if the elegance of the BESD match is likely to convince you,

There's nothing elegant here, subjective though the word "elegant" may be. Most of you are trying to convince me of the importance of "I... I must succeed", but on the whole I've seen very few of you that haven't been arguing backwards or circularly.

Also, if you're saying that "I... I must succeed," was unnecessary for the gain of UAP, there's no way you can make a logical argument that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," is any more necessary.

You're confusing four separate arguments.

You people used the word "right" as meaning that the words "I... I must succeed" were necessary for the attainment of that power -- I argued that (a) the definition is circular and thus meaningless, and (b) that they weren't actually necessary. So the description "the right four words" doesn't work even with that circular meaning.

My own argument about "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." being right, was (c) that they were right in that they served the Greater Good. That's what made them "right" in my book.

And yeah, they were ALSO necessary to the attainment of his power, but that's only my argument (d). And it doesn't concern the word "right", it concerns the word "by".

What if, instead, V had said, "Finger of Death," and then dumped the body over?

Pretty sure that Necromancy is one of V's barred schools.

And I'm guessing that Qarr being Lawful would react differently to a resurrectable Kubota than to a non-resurrectable one.

There's any number of other spell combinations, I'm sure.

Let me know if you find one such combination that were likely to have been available to V at that moment.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 01:27 PM

Let me an add a minor word regarding elegance.

As I said determining what is elegant and what isn't is subjective. But some criteria -- including the lack of arbitrariness can be evaluated more objectively.

If it's about V convincing himself with "I... I must succeed." -- then I find it very inelegant on behalf of the Giant. Because it'd be Giant's arbitrary decision of how many words V would use to convince himself. It might have been 3 or 5 or 6. It was in the Giant's full power. And so it would be inelegant of the Giant to use a prophecy that he would arbitrary fulfill by merely removing or adding an arbitrary word.

That's what makes this interpretation inelegant.

But a 1-word spell to kill an opponent. And then "Gust of Wind" to scatter his ashes. THAT'S an elegant usage of four words. The shortest, cleanest method to dispose of someone completely.

Is there any 5-word combination of words that could do that (likely to be possesed by V)? Any 3-word combination? I'm not expert in D&D, I've never played. But I don't believe so.

So, in short, if the Giant intended Kubota's killing to be the fulfillment of the prophecy, I feel he played fair with us.

But if the Giant intended "I... I must succeed" I feel he played unfair. Because those words are arbitrary in number. And "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." aren't arbitrary. That's what makes them an elegant interpretation.

Optimystik

2009-06-30, 01:40 PM

Aris, you're still missing the point. Let's pretend for a moment that "elegance" has any bearing whatsoever on fulfilling a prophecy.

V's stammered statement is not supposed to BE elegant. He is not supposed to be an elf in full control of his faculties and situation at that point in the story. Observe his demeanor after vaporizing Kubota: he is arrogant and supremely didactic in explaining his motivation to Elan, throughly convinced he has just done the entire universe a favor and that he deserves nothing but accolades for his index finger's dissertation.

Yet later, we see him on that island; utterly powerless to change anything, his vaunted magic useless to save the people that matter to him. Having finally decided to make the ultimate sacrifice - his soul - he then is confronted with a stark reality by the Fiends; his goal in doing so is not to ensure his family's safety at all costs, his goal is to save them AND vindicate his belief in the superiority of arcane might. He is simply unwilling to sacrifice one to save the other, and so he takes the bargain - for the wrong reasons.

In short, his very world is crashing down around his pointed ears. How can he muster "elegance" at a time like that? And how could a V that sounded cool and in control of himself have possibly improved that scene?

Rotipher

2009-06-30, 02:17 PM

My own argument about "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." being right, was (c) that they were right in that they served the Greater Good. That's what made them "right" in my book.

I see. "Right" in the moral sense, in your book.

And "your book" has what, exactly, to do with the moral standards of a Lawful Evil kobold Oracle? One who couldn't care less if V or vir family lives or dies, and probably hates vir by association with a halfling we know he despises? One who is the divinely-favored servant of Tiamat, and has just forseen V's future, in which ve wipes out a quarter of all his goddess's black dragon worshippers?

The Oracle does not value "the Greater Good", else he wouldn't have yanked Roy's chain with his "in his throne room" response the first time Roy visited him. He would not have misled the party into heading off to the wrong Gate, just because of how Roy'd phrased his later question. Granted, he might still have mucked with Belkar's MoJ -- the little creep did kill him, after all -- but there were plenty of opportunities for the Oracle to be more helpful than he has been. He is not on the Order's side, period.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-30, 02:22 PM

I see. "Right" in the moral sense, in your book.

And "your book" has what, exactly, to do with the moral standards of a Lawful Evil kobold Oracle? One who couldn't care less if V or vir family lives or dies, and probably hates vir by association with a halfling we know he despises? One who is the divinely-favored servant of Tiamat, and has just forseen V's future, in which ve wipes out a quarter of all his goddess's black dragon worshippers?

The Oracle does not value "the Greater Good", else he wouldn't have yanked Roy's chain with his "in his throne room" response the first time Roy visited him. He would not have misled the party into heading off to the wrong Gate, just because of how Roy'd phrased his later question. Granted, he might still have mucked with Belkar's MoJ -- the little creep did kill him, after all -- but there were plenty of opportunities for the Oracle to be more helpful than he has been. He is not on the Order's side, period.

Even less so on Vs side, given Vs crimes against dragon-kind. Wonder if the oracle saw that coming?

Random832

2009-06-30, 02:34 PM

Even less so on Vs side, given Vs crimes against dragon-kind. Wonder if the oracle saw that coming?

Couldn't he have warned the dragon about it?

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 02:35 PM

{Scrubbed}

dr.cello

2009-06-30, 02:39 PM

Why do you think he didn't attain UAP?

A few reasons, really.

One: it happens at the wrong time in the story. It makes more sense to happen at or near the climax, or at the very least the climax for V's character arc. We have clearly not reached that climax--there is much more to go with V, with regard to the fiends, the gates, Xykon, etc.

Since we have not yet seen the end of V's story arc and have not received an actual positive confirmation that the soul splice was UAP, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that something even cooler and more ultimate could be coming down the pipe.

Two: as I said, when I was reading the strips, I didn't even consider that the prophecy had been fulfilled. You could perhaps accuse me of lacking perceptive qualities here, but I was actively looking for signs of it, and the idea simply never occurred to me that it had already happened.

Finally: I like to believe I have some degree of talent for being spotting narrative structures and tropes. This just doesn't feel right. It feels exactly like a red herring to me.

There are certainly arguments in favor of the "this was V attaining UAP," and I'm not really disputing those. I'm confident that "I... I must succeed" were not the four words (once again, due to some very obvious clues--nonverbal contract, three fiends, and also due to a complete lack of causal relation to anything that happened after and otherwise the words being completely insignificant), but it's very possible some other combination of four words qualifies. I just don't feel that it's obvious enough to merit absolute confidence in the fact.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 02:47 PM

Even less so on Vs side, given Vs crimes against dragon-kind. Wonder if the oracle saw that coming?

What you may perhaps not know is that this was the explanation up to and including <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html">#633</a>
about how V wanting to save his kids was "all the wrong reasons". Basically the Oracle belongs to the dragons, and though he's okay with V wanting power, he's not okay with wanting to use that power to kill dragons.

Then ofcourse once they found some better "wrong reasons" in #634, they switched immediately: The Oracle's interest in dragons no longer mattered.

That's why I say that they argue circularly or backwards. They don't see an event and go "Oh my god, that fits all the elements of the prophecy", same as I did with Kubota's killing. They FIRST decide an event fulfills the prophecy, and then they ignore or include elements of the prophecy as it suits them, switch moral perspective as it suits them, to *make* their recollection of the prophecy fit the events.

Now we have people deciding that the phrase "wrong reasons" can have a moral perspective but the phrase "right four words" can't. From whose moral perspective were the wrong reasons then? The Oracle's?

But since the Oracle isn't a well-enough defined character that we can really know which things he'd consider wrong and which ones he'd consider right, again we fall back on arbitrary inelegant interpretations that could be made to fit anything.

Optimystik

2009-06-30, 02:49 PM

Which btw, traditionally, it has always had in fiction. But if you don't accept that, let's at least pretend that it has a bearing on the writing quality of the comic.

I doubt anything has been "always" a certain way in fiction, so no, I can't accept a statement like that. Further, who decides the "writing quality" of the comic? If you are the sole arbiter of the strip's quality then there is no room for discussion.

I'm talking about elegance from the point of view of writing and reading the comic here. Not from the point of view of Vaarsuvius.

I made that quite clear.

But that was my point; the words, and delivery, chosen by the Giant convey to the reader the uncertainty of V's current state of mind. If it sounded elegant - if, in our minds, we could rattle it off like a string of magic words (like, say, Gust of Wind) then we wouldn't be in tune with the doubt and fear plaguing V at that point in the story.

Whatever. I spend whole paragraphs describing how I'd find it inelegant on the Giant's behalf, and you probably didn't even bother to read a single word of my post.

Your argument in the previous post was "the Giant could have gone about it better, so this must not be it." First, I attempted to show why the way he did present the words was the best, or at least one of the best, ways he could have chosen to do so. Second, when you are the one who decides what "better" or "elegant" or whichever standard you choose to use is, then what point is there in debating?

Actually, you just never got mine.

Tell me what's incorrect about my argument then. I honestly want to have a meaningful discussion over this (and without flames, of course.) :smallsmile:

Optimystik

2009-06-30, 03:01 PM

dr.cello, you are right; we have not seen the end of V's growth. But you are making the same mistake he did; you see ultimate arcane power as the primary goal for V to strive for, and so you believe it wouldn't make sense fro him to achieve it until near the end of the story, when it is needed to be brought to bear against the BBEG.

Xykon's speech on the nature of power is meant to dispel those illusions. V's weakness in that fight wasn't that he didn't have Ultimate Arcane Power; his weakness was that was the only kind of power he had. V was convinced - quite wrongly - that wizardry was all he needed to solve any problem that came before him.

Here's a prime example: Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) is a 4th level cleric spell that would have easily stopped Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain, a level 12 spell. It is not on the wizard class list; yet still V considers divine spells to not be real magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) despite the fact that they can cover for his own weaknesses. This is a lesson he needed to learn in order for his character to grow. Otherwise he would continually make the same mistake - putting his faith in the ability of arcane magic to solve all his problems, and being routinely disillusioned.

Kish

2009-06-30, 03:11 PM

What you may perhaps not know is that this was the explanation up to and including <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html">#633</a>
about how V wanting to save his kids was "all the wrong reasons". Basically the Oracle belongs to the dragons, and though he's okay with V wanting power, he's not okay with wanting to use that power to kill dragons.

Then ofcourse once they found some better "wrong reasons" in #634, they switched immediately: The Oracle's interest in dragons no longer mattered.

That's why I say that they argue circularly or backwards. They don't see an event and go "Oh my god, that fits all the elements of the prophecy", same as I did with Kubota's killing. They FIRST decide an event fulfills the prophecy, and then they ignore or include elements of the prophecy as it suits them, switch moral perspective as it suits them, to *make* their recollection of the prophecy fit the events.
This post actually confused me until I realized that, no, you hadn't specified who "they" were anywhere in it. Do you even recognize that people who disagree with you are people, much less individuals? All this "this was the explanation...they do this, they do that" stuff sure doesn't look like it.

dr.cello

2009-06-30, 03:12 PM

It really depends which way V's character goes from here. If V has decided "lesson learned," then I think you're right. If V has decided that the power was simply not sufficient, that ze would have succeeded etc if only hir power had been greater, or otherwise adopted an even more single-minded pursuit of ultimate arcane power... I think we're going to see something else down the line.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 04:37 PM

I lost a whole large post, and detailed response to you, just because I closed a tab accidentally. There's twenty minutes of my life wasted. So tiresome that I have to repeat myself three times before my words are acknowledged, let alone when I stupidly waste my own time.

If you are the sole arbiter of the strip's quality then there is no room for discussion.

Your argument in the previous post was "the Giant could have gone about it better, so this must not be it."

Tell me what's incorrect about my argument then. I honestly want to have a meaningful discussion over this (and without flames, of course.)

So in summary of what I had written:

a) You're incorrect, because you utterly confuse the concepts of a writer *writing* elegantly, with a *character* speaking elegantly.

b) You're incorrect also because you ignored the fact that I acknowledged elegance to be subjective as a whole, but I also introduced concepts (e.g. arbitrariness and lack thereof) that can be used to discuss elegance meaningfully.

"I... I must succeed" is very arbitrary in length. It was completely in the Giant's control what phrasing he'd use to "convince himself". So it's inelegant because the author could have just as well been making the whole thing up as he went along.

"Disintegrate. Gust of wind." is much less arbitrary. It was the most efficient way to depose a villian. No three or five words about it.

c) No, I don't confuse what I believe the Giant wrote, with what I wish he'd written -- or atleast I didn't mean to. I'm arguing forwards: If the Giant intended "I... I must succeed." to be the four words, then the Giant wrote the prophecy badly and inelegantly for my tastes -- and in some respects I'd argue even objectively. It's always a possibility: Every writer sucks from time to time, perhaps the Giant did too this time. But because of all the other reasons I stated, I don't believe he did. I believe that this prophecy had the most elegant fulfillment of them all as yet, with Kubota's killing.

d) Another two elements of elegance is sufficiency and necessity (compactness and completeness). By giving circular, arbitrary definitions to words (e.g. the word "right"), people reduce the prophecy to nothing more than "while saying four words to someone for wrong reasons".

That makes the original phrasing of the prophecy needlessly verbose -- three times the length of what it could have been. And so it gains inelegancy points for yet another reason -- especially when the Oracle was so succinct with other prophecies. "Yes." "Posthumously."

fishguy

2009-06-30, 04:54 PM

Option C: the event or something resembling it will happen multiple times, with the prophecy referring to one of them.

For example, if Haley got her voice back for no particular reason in a situation that did not involve anything resembling a metaphorical gift horse being accepted without scrutiny, either the prophecy was wrong or Haley is scheduled to lose and regain her voice again somewhere along the line.

... ORRRR.... in line with the fact that Haley's background is known to be indeterminate and possibly hyper-exotic... perhaps Haley's normal, native and or racial "speech" has been curtailed all along and is yet to be "restored" ... leaving the gift horse still in the offing.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-30, 04:55 PM

"I... I must succeed" is very arbitrary in length. It was completely in the Giant's control what phrasing he'd use to "convince himself". So it's inelegant because the author could have just as well been making the whole thing up as he went along.
So, in your mind these can't be the "right" four words because they could have been any four words...

"Disintegrate. Gust of wind." is much less arbitrary. It was the most efficient way to depose a villian. No three or five words about it.
...but these are the right four words because they are so precise...

d) Another two elements of elegance is sufficiency and necessity (compactness and completeness). By giving circular, arbitrary definitions to words (e.g. the word "right"), people reduce the prophecy to nothing more than "while saying four words to someone for wrong reasons".
...and other interpretations of what the oracle meant are circular and arbitrary.

Here's the thing, though. The word "right" is a terribly imprecise word in the English language. The dictionary on my desk lists no less than one and one-half pages of definitions for the word -- large pages, in very small type. To assume that the "right" words must have been the "only words that would have worked to solve a specific situation, used in a phrase that, by its nature, could only have been precisely four words long" is making a huge leap of faith about what the word "right" somehow must mean in this context. I can not see how that leap is warrented.

Further, this has the difficulty that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind," has no direct connection with the events in Strips #634-635, whereas "I...I must succeed" is right there on the page.

That makes the original phrasing of the prophecy needlessly verbose -- three times the length of what it could have been. And so it gains inelegancy points for yet another reason -- especially when the Oracle was so succinct with other prophecies. "Yes." "Posthumously."
Poetic; repetition and contrast. "The right...the right...the right...for all the wrong reasons," serves a narrative purpose, making the important clause stand out because it uses a different word from the others.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 05:07 PM

So, in your mind these can't be the "right" four words because they could have been any four words...

...but these are the right four words because they are so precise...

No, I'm actually not saying either of these. At this point you quoted I was discussing the elegance and conversely arbitrariness of the number 4. Not the word "right", which I discuss elsewhere and differently than your interpretation.

[To assume that the "right" words must have been the "only words that would have worked to solve a specific situation,

Too bad for you that I'm not using that definition -- to me the "right four words" were right, primarily because they served the Greater Good. Same as Kubota was the right person, because he deserved it.

Poetic; repetition and contrast. "The right...the right...the right...for all the wrong reasons," serves a narrative purpose, making the important clause stand out because it uses a different word from the others.

Here's a yet 4th element of elegance: correspondance between form and meaning -- in my interpretation the poetic contrast in the words is one with the contrast of what transpired (morally right choice, morally wrong motivation for it) -- with your interpretation the poetic repetition only serves the form itself, and has no correspondence to any such actual contast in the events that transpired.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-30, 05:18 PM

Too bad for you that I'm not using that definition -- to me the "right four words" were right, primarily because they served the Greater Good. Same as Kubota was the right person, because he deserved it.
Quibble, quibble. Nevertheless, it is a leap of faith that you're making that this sense of the word "right" which must be correct.

Here's a yet 4th element of elegance: correspondance between form and meaning -- in my interpretation the poetic contrast in the words is one with the contrast of what transpired (morally right choice, morally wrong motivation for it) -- with your interpretation the poetic repetition only serves the form itself, and has no correspondence to any such actual contast in the events that transpired.
Yes. I think that's way to precise an interpretation of the word "right". There is no indication that it means "right" in that sense, and it flies in the face of reason. I just can not imagine that the Giant would have the words spoken in #595 and the prophecy's payoff in #634-#635 and make no mention of or reference to the words. For all that you've complained about how the resolution that I favor would be bad writing, it pales in comparison to having the four words (as you see them) pay off fourty(!) strips after the fact and being utterly silent on that fact. Not possible.

Aris Katsaris

2009-06-30, 05:30 PM

Quibble, quibble. Nevertheless, it is a leap of faith that you're making that this sense of the word "right" which must be correct.

I am not saying it MUST be the correct one. Before I saw Kubota's killing I had no idea and no opinion in what way the four words would be "right". Kubota's killing however perfectly satisfied the criterion, without need for me to twist my logic.

"I... I must succeed" however doesn't fulfil the criterion for meaningful (aka non-circular) definitions of "right".

I just can not imagine that the Giant would have the words spoken in #595 and the prophecy's payoff in #634-#635 and make no mention of or reference to the words.

Haley's gift horse wasn't acknowledged as the gift horse until Haley revisited the Oracle. That was *hundreds* of strips after she regained her voice and fulfilled the prophecy.

For all that you've complained about how the resolution that I favor would be bad writing, it pales in comparison to having the four words (as you see them) pay off fourty(!) strips after the fact and being utterly silent on that fact. Not possible.

As I've said before, if my own interpretation is correct, I believe we'll find out about in the comic eventually.
If your interpretation is correct, I'm betting the Giant will step in eventually with a forum post instead.

So here's the falsibility I offer -- if OoTS ends *without* eventual confirmation of the Kubota interpretation, I will admit that I was wrong and your interpretation was the correct one. Or if the Giant steps in with Word of God in the forums, of course.

Now, under what circumstance will *you* admit you were wrong? :-)

Rotipher

2009-06-30, 05:53 PM

One: it happens at the wrong time in the story. It makes more sense to happen at or near the climax, or at the very least the climax for V's character arc. We have clearly not reached that climax--there is much more to go with V, with regard to the fiends, the gates, Xykon, etc.

Except that the comic isn't about V. It's about the Order as a whole, with this one book being a side-trek for purposes of individual character growth. Whatever climax the story comes to, it'll need to incorporate the rest of the group, on equal standing with V.

That means the grand finale can't also see the appearance of the Ultimate Arcane Power To Dwarf All Previous Ultimate Arcane Power, because if V ever became as powerful as ve was during this story-arc, and has learned from this experience to use that power with prudence, then V will stomp Team Evil into tapioca all by virself and there'll be nothing for the others to do. It would make V into a Marty Sue (Mary Stu?) in the end, and undo all of the character growth V has experience to date, by eliminating the need for allies and cooperation which ve's only just accepted are worthwhile.

ArcadiaGM

2009-06-30, 05:55 PM

"I... I must succeed" however doesn't fulfil the criterion for meaningful (aka non-circular) definitions of "right".
You do know that some of the definitions for "right" that work are in fact actual definitions of the word?

Haley's gift horse wasn't acknowledged as the gift horse until Haley revisited the Oracle. That was *hundreds* of strips after she regained her voice and fulfilled the prophecy.
But she was still on the date when she got her voice back. It was several strips (largely because of the flashback) but still the same basic "scene" in the story. Not so with Kubota.

As I've said before, if my own interpretation is correct, I believe we'll find out about in the comic eventually.
If your interpretation is correct, I'm betting the Giant will step in eventually with a forum post instead.

So here's the falsibility I offer -- if OoTS ends *without* eventual confirmation of the Kubota interpretation, I will admit that I was wrong and your interpretation was the correct one. Or if the Giant steps in with Word of God in the forums, of course.

Now, under what circumstance will *you* admit you were wrong? :-)
Everything I've written has been my take on the Giant's intent. If he clears that up either way, that will clearly show if I read his intent correctly or incorrectly.

Nerdanel

2009-07-01, 05:09 AM

I think the words "right" and "wrong" here have nothing to do with morals (especially as the Oracle is likely Lawful Evil) but are only "right" or "wrong" in respect to Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power.

V will gain Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane power...

by saying

- the right four words: the four words that lead to Ultimate Arcane Power being gained, as opposed to any number of some other words

- to the right being: to the being who is somehow instrumental in V gaining Ultimate Arcane Power

- at the right time: at the time when the window of opportunity to Ultimate Arcane Power is open

- for all the wrong reasons: for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with desire for Ultimate Arcane Power

Yes, the prophecy is not very informative at all and has no value as guidance, but then, the oracle has a history giving answers that are clear and accurate but not at all helpful. Essentially V will gain Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power (or the ability to gain it) by accident.

This line of reasoning would mean that "I... I must succeed" were definitely not the four words of prophecy. However if you count the splice as Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power (I don't) "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." could qualify.

LuisDantas

2009-07-01, 05:31 AM

I think the words "right" and "wrong" here have nothing to do with morals (especially as the Oracle is likely Lawful Evil) but are only "right" or "wrong" in respect to Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power.

V will gain Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane power...

by saying

- the right four words: the four words that lead to Ultimate Arcane Power being gained, as opposed to any number of some other words

- to the right being: to the being who is somehow instrumental in V gaining Ultimate Arcane Power

- at the right time: at the time when the window of opportunity to Ultimate Arcane Power is open

- for all the wrong reasons: for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with desire for Ultimate Arcane Power

This reading of what "all the wrong reasons" could conceivably mean did not occur to me before. I agree that it is valid, but it seems more natural to me that "the wrong reasons" are defined in relation to how "right" they fit with the words, time and being to whom they are spoken, as opposed to how related to acquiring UAP they are.

Jaltum

2009-07-01, 05:48 AM

FWIW, long before the ABD and the Splice, Nerdanel's interpretation was my natural reaction to V's prophecy. It seemed like that was what the Oracle meant in context, to me--that it would be an accident, based on V saying four words that had an effect s/he never expected.

I think 'Disintegrate; Gust of Wind,' is fairly tenuous, but the fact that the Splice is explicitly and carefully defined as a nonverbal contract is pretty damning, however you want to try and spin it. Neither one is a perfect fit.

Which seems pretty perfect for a prophecy about V, tbh.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 09:35 AM

a) You're incorrect, because you utterly confuse the concepts of a writer *writing* elegantly, with a *character* speaking elegantly.

I am not. I consider V's INelegant speech to be very elegant writing. With one stammered statement, The Giant captured V's desperation, highlighted his character's primary flaw, and fulfilled the prophecy, all in just 4 words. That you consider it to be bad writing puts you in the minority, albeit a vocal one.

b) You're incorrect also because you ignored the fact that I acknowledged elegance to be subjective as a whole, but I also introduced concepts (e.g. arbitrariness and lack thereof) that can be used to discuss elegance meaningfully.

"I... I must succeed" is very arbitrary in length. It was completely in the Giant's control what phrasing he'd use to "convince himself". So it's inelegant because the author could have just as well been making the whole thing up as he went along.

"Disintegrate. Gust of wind." is much less arbitrary. It was the most efficient way to depose a villian. No three or five words about it.

As I pointed out earlier, efficiency has no link to prophecy beyond what you have established in your own mind.

c) No, I don't confuse what I believe the Giant wrote, with what I wish he'd written -- or atleast I didn't mean to. I'm arguing forwards: If the Giant intended "I... I must succeed." to be the four words, then the Giant wrote the prophecy badly and inelegantly for my tastes -- and in some respects I'd argue even objectively. It's always a possibility: Every writer sucks from time to time, perhaps the Giant did too this time. But because of all the other reasons I stated, I don't believe he did. I believe that this prophecy had the most elegant fulfillment of them all as yet, with Kubota's killing.

As I said, your disagreement with the strip puts you in a vocal minority. Those of us who were satisfied with the prophecy's fulfillment are much less likely to make threads than posters with an axe to grind.

d) Another two elements of elegance is sufficiency and necessity (compactness and completeness). By giving circular, arbitrary definitions to words (e.g. the word "right"), people reduce the prophecy to nothing more than "while saying four words to someone for wrong reasons".

That makes the original phrasing of the prophecy needlessly verbose -- three times the length of what it could have been. And so it gains inelegancy points for yet another reason -- especially when the Oracle was so succinct with other prophecies. "Yes." "Posthumously."

The Oracle's use of succinctness also covers imprecision. "In his throne room" is accurate, but highly imprecise. "Yes" could mean any or everyone on Belkar's list. We still don't know exactly what "posthumously" means. By contrast, he laid out very specific conditions to V, all of which are satisfied by "I...I must succeed." They are NOT all satisfied by DGOW.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 02:04 PM

I consider V's INelegant speech to be very elegant writing.

So do I. The Giant captured V's desperation, highlighted his character's primary flaw, and mislead many of you into thinking he'd only then fulfilled the prophecy, all in just 4 words.

As I said, your disagreement with the strip puts you in a vocal minority.

Um, I don't disagree with the strip one bit. I disagree with your interpretation of the strip.

Those of us who were satisfied with the prophecy's fulfillment are much less likely to make threads than posters with an axe to grind.

I'm also exceptionally satisfied with the prophecy's fulfillment, as I've already said. I just disagree with you regarding what that fulfillment was.

And I didn't make this thread.

The Oracle's use of succinctness also covers imprecision. "In his throne room" is accurate, but highly imprecise. "Yes" could mean any or everyone on Belkar's list. We still don't know exactly what "posthumously" means.

Usage of the word "right" in your interpretation of the prophecy is so weak that *any* words uttered at that moment would have satisfied that criterion. There's "accurate, but imprecise", and then again there's "so vague that it's utterly meaningless".

By contrast, he laid out very specific conditions to V, all of which are satisfied by "I...I must succeed."

No, the prophecy's conditions really aren't satisfied by this, starting from the prophecy very first word: "By".

Interpretations that claim the conditions have been satified have been so vague that *any* four words uttered at that time would supposedly be satisfying the conditions.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 02:19 PM

So do I. The Giant captured V's desperation, highlighted his character's primary flaw, and mislead many of you into thinking he'd only then fulfilled the prophecy, all in just 4 words.

Your theory is that the Giant purposefully mislead us by coming up with another 4 word combination that fits the prophecy better than DGoW, intentionally mistitling the strip so that we'd take the bait, and then immediately supplying V with UAP just to further add confusion?

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Um, I don't disagree with the strip one bit. I disagree with your interpretation of the strip.

I'm also exceptionally satisfied with the prophecy's fulfillment, as I've already said. I just disagree with you regarding what that fulfillment was.

Fair enough, but your arguments against "I...I must succeed" do not hold water. They satisfy every clause of the prophecy.

And I didn't make this thread.

Where did I say you did?

Usage of the word "right" in your interpretation of the prophecy is so weak that *any* words uttered at that moment would have satisfied that criterion. There's "accurate, but imprecise", and then again there's "so vague that it's utterly meaningless".

"Correct" is not a vague meaning of the word "right." It satisfies the prophecy expertly.

No, the prophecy's conditions really aren't satisfied by this, starting from the prophecy very first word: "By".

How so?

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 02:42 PM

Your theory is that the Giant purposefully mislead us by coming up with another 4 word combination that fits the prophecy better than DGoW, intentionally mistitling the strip so that we'd take the bait, and then immediately supplying V with UAP just to further add confusion?

I think the Giant purposefully mislead you by coming up with a 4-word combination that doesn't fit the prophecy at *all*, but whose immediacy counterbalanced in your mind the utter irrelevancy of them.

I find it very elegant of him.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Yes, Occam's razor suggests that the Giant wouldn't have included TWO four-word occurences by V at critical junctures that were "for all the wrong reasons", if he wasn't attempting to have atleast ONE of those be a red herring.

You think Kubota's four-word killing and disposal was a coincidence? And that the next strip spent time detailing how it was for the Greater Good, but that V didn't actually care muchly for the Greater Good, he merely was impatient and didn't want further distractions?

"Correct" is not a vague meaning of the word "right." It satisfies the prophecy expertly.

Once again, by "correct" you mean what? Factually correct? Do you mean the four words were factually correct?

I have no idea how to interpret "I must succeed" factually correct. It's an expression of an attitude, without much factuality in them, whether right or wrong.

So even if you use the meaning "factually correct", it doesn't fit.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 03:00 PM

I think the Giant purposefully mislead you by coming up with a 4-word combination that doesn't fit the prophecy at *all*, but whose immediacy counterbalanced in your mind the utter irrelevancy of them.

I find it very elegant of him.

But they fit the prophecy perfectly, therefore you are mistaken. The breakdown has been given numerous times in many other threads like this one.

Your argument still consists solely of arguing for DGoW. You can't argue against IIMS because you know you can't come up with a reasonable way of showing the words don't fit. Instead you rely on claims of "inelegance" and the Giant's supposed desire to fool all of us.

Yes, Occam's razor suggests that the Giant wouldn't have included TWO four-word occurences by V at critical junctures that were "for all the wrong reasons", if he wasn't attempting to have atleast ONE of those be a red herring.

No, Occam's Razor suggests that there is no red herring. No attempts to mislead or engender confusion. Kubota's killing simply wasn't meant to be confused for the prophecy's fulfillment at all; it's merely a literary device that the Giant uses throughout the strip. (See below.)

You think Kubota's four-word killing and disposal was a coincidence? And that the next strip spent time detailing how it was for the Greater Good, but that V didn't actually care muchly for the Greater Good, he merely was impatient and didn't want further distractions?

As I said above, Kubota's four-word killing was chosen to be especially pithy, and punctuate both the abruptness of his removal from the story and the depth of Elan's shock. I don't think they had anything to do with V's prophecy at all.

Short statements - particularly for attacks - are used all the time in the comic to underscore drama. Bozzok finishing Haley: "Sneak attack." Xykon taking down O-Chul: "Ray of Frost." Tsukiko blasting Haley: "Electric Orb." Taking a literary device that the Giant uses in so many other places to be definitive fulfillment of prophecy is itself far more inelegant than any red herrings you could devise.

Once again, by "correct" you mean what? Factually correct? Do you mean the four words were factually correct?

No, by "correct" I mean "being the proper words to ensure the prophecy comes to pass." In other words, that statement is precisely what he needed to convince himself to touch that orb.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 03:41 PM

But they fit the prophecy perfectly, therefore you are mistaken.
But they don't fit the prophecy at all, therefore I'm correct.

Your argument still consists solely of arguing for DGoW.

No. I'm open to the possibility that DGoW is a red herring too. It's just about a thousand times more likely to be the true fulfillment than IIMS is.

You can't argue against IIMS because you know you can't come up with a reasonable way of showing the words don't fit.

I've argued constantly against IIMS, point by point, word by word.

No, Occam's Razor suggests that there is no red herring.

Mere coincidence is utterly improbable.

As I said above, Kubota's four-word killing was chosen to be especially pithy, and punctuate both the abruptness of his removal from the story and the depth of Elan's shock.

Certainly it was chosen for those reasons. And after the Giant chose it for those reasons, he had the Oracle prophesy about it, 250 (or so) strips earlier.

He didn't tailor the words to the prophecy. He tailored the prophecy to the words.

I don't think they had anything to do with V's prophecy at all.

Not even as red herring? Now *that's* utterly unbelievable.

Taking a literary device that the Giant uses in so many other places to be definitive fulfillment of prophecy is itself far more inelegant than any red herrings you could devise.

Unlike what I did with 'arbibrariness' 'conciseness' 'completeness', you don't give any remotely objective elements of "elegance" to discuss about this with you. I don't understand at all why you consider the fullfillment to be an incidence of spellcasting to be inelegant.

No, by "correct" I mean "being the proper words to ensure the prophecy comes to pass."

a) That's 90% circular by the way -- you're saying that they fulfil the prophecy by ensuring the prophecy's fulfillment.

b) The 10% that isn't circular is the word "ensure". Let's say that you believe that saying IIMS *ensured* the attainment of the UAP. And that you believe they're "right" for that reason. I'll proceed to utterly demolish this argument.

In other words, that statement is precisely what he needed to convince himself to touch that orb.

How so? Why did he need these words? How did they help convince him of anything? The words themselves aren't an argument. "I... I must succeed." isn't an argument.

Remember he was about to agree to the deal anyway, and he'd have gained the same power, even without the fiends telling him all the wrong reasons. In his deal with the fiends, the right words weren't needed. Not even the wrong reasons were needed. He'd have gained the power anyway, by touching the orb, whether he did it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons, whether he said the words or remained silent.

IIMS doesn't seem to be causative at all -- not even as "words to convince oneself". They merely seem *illustrative* of his attitude. They're a conclusion, not an argument. And hence they didn't cause anything, and they weren't necessary for anything.

Contrast with Kubota -- if V had said the right words for the right reasons, he'd not have bitterly argued with Elan later, and he's unlikely to have left the ship so quickly afterwards.

Both the right words *and* the wrong reasons were required for DGoW to attain the UAP. Neither right words nor wrong reasons were required in the IIMS.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 03:56 PM

But they don't fit the prophecy at all, therefore I'm correct.

We've degenerated to "No u! NO U!" already, and I doubt repeating the rationale is going to convince you at this point. You refuse to acknowledge that IIMS can fit the prophecy, so we can't progress any further.

Unlike what I did with 'arbibrariness' 'conciseness' 'completeness', you don't give any remotely objective elements of "elegance" to discuss about this with you. I don't understand at all why you consider the fullfillment to be an incidence of spellcasting to be inelegant.

I don't consider spellcasting to be inelegant at all. It's a very elegant way of accomplishing a dramatic effect. (e.g. pointing your finger and saying "Disintegrate" is a much more elegant way of reducing them to powder than specifically stating "And now I cast a spell that will reduce you to powder!")

But I still don't understand why a spell's elegance or efficiency automatically qualifies it to fulfill a prophecy. It's a complete non sequitur on your part. :smallconfused:

How so? Why did he need these words? How did they help convince him of anything? The words themselves aren't an argument. "I... I must succeed." isn't an argument.

Of course he needed to convince himself. He even made a similar statement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) (again, to himself) when he thought Qarr could grant him the power he needed.

Contrast with Kubota -- if V had said the right words for the right reasons, he'd not have bitterly argued with Elan later, and he's unlikely to have left the ship so quickly afterwards.

His reasons were right - He correctly deduced that Kubota was a villain, and that he likely would have escaped his trial. His only issue was that he based that correct conclusion on some very shaky evidence.

In addition, DGoW wasn't said to any being at all, much less the right one.

hamishspence

2009-07-01, 03:58 PM

I don't remember V saying he "likely would have escaped his trial"

If anything, the only verbalized complaint is about the time length.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 03:59 PM

I don't rmemeberr V saying he "likely would have escaped his trial"

"His trial would have taken weeks" implies that he was going to interfere with it in some way, and V did hear that.

hamishspence

2009-07-01, 04:01 PM

But when Kubota says it "a few weeks at most" the implication seems to be that it would be short, rather than long.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 04:03 PM

But when Kubota says it "a few weeks at most" the implication seems to be that it would be short, rather than long.

Whether short or long, being able to predict the length of his own trial is still an implication of intended tampering.

hamishspence

2009-07-01, 04:09 PM

Possible. But perverting the course of justice is par for the course with criminals- how good they will turn out to be at it is a different question entirely.

Just as Batman's plan to kill the villain who murdered his family in Batmans Begins (because he's got a good chance of escaping justice) is implied to be something to be disapproved of, so the same applies to V's killing of Kubota.

Even the more ruthless Michael Keaton Batman has his moments- Batman Returns:

Catwoman: "Don't be naive- the law doesn't apply to people like him, or us."
Batman: "Wrong on both counts."

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 04:24 PM

You refuse to acknowledge that IIMS can fit the prophecy, so we can't progress any further.

If you expect agreement with you as the only possible progress, then yes, we can't progress any further. However I make my arguments about why I 'refuse to' clear.

But I still don't understand why a spell's elegance or efficiency automatically qualifies it to fulfill a prophecy.

You're confusing separate arguments of mine. I believe "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" to be the fulfillment of the prophecy. And I ALSO (and separately) opine it to be an ELEGANT fulfillment because (among other things) the number of the words but derives directly from what is most the efficient way for V to dispose of an opponent.

An elegant prophecy in fiction is one that the writer convinces the reader its fulfillment was planned before the prophecy itself was spoken.
An inelegant prophecy is one in which there's nothing to convince you the writer wasn't making it up as he went along.

The wrong reasons in DGoW derive directly from V's personality as it had been seen over many dozens of strips. (impatience, hatred of distractions)
The number of the words derivse directly from the most efficient way to permanently remove such a distraction.

On the other hand in IIMS, the number of the words is arbitrary. The Giant could have used any number of words of V "trying to convince himself".
And the "wrong reasons" are again arbitrary, as a last-minute alternate solution to the problem by the fiends. Arbitrary wrong reasons again, when V's MAIN REASONS are actually the very right ones of saving his children.

Of course he needed to convince himself.

"Ofcourse" is not an argument. Tell me in what way "I... I must succeed" helped convince V of anything at all, if that's your whole basis fpr claiming it fulfilled the prophecy.

His reasons were right - He correctly deduced that Kubota was a villain, and that he likely would have escaped his trial.

No, you're misremembering. That was *Elan's* reason for thinking it was for the Greater Good. V's reasons were "I saved us all from a second tedious trial scene". They also were that Kubota's trial would take weeks "20 or 30 strips of humorless drudgery".

In short V's reasons was that he hated the *tedium* of it all. That Kubota was a villain merely made him a valid target -- but it was NOT V's reasons for killing him.

In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html he also mentions "the haste with which I will remove that which distracts me from my crucial research". Again nothing about Kubota's villainy being a reason.

The distraction was a reason. The drudgery of a trial and V's impatience were a reason. Kubota's villainy merely made him a legitimate target -- they were NOT the reason. V didn't care one damn about Kubota's villainy and were it not for the distraction he'd be, Kubota would have lived.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 04:37 PM

@ hamish: True, but keep in mind that I'm not excusing V's actions (I think zapping a tied up Kubota is reprehensible.) It doesn't change the fact that he based his decision to do so on a correct assumption - that Kubota was a villain. That he used excessive force doesn't change the fact that he did so for the right cause.

You're confusing separate arguments of mine. I believe "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" to be the fulfillment of the prophecy. And I ALSO (and separately) opine it to be an ELEGANT fulfillment because (among other things) the number of the words but derives directly from what is most the efficient way for V to dispose of an opponent.

An elegant prophecy in fiction is one that the writer convinces the reader its fulfillment was planned before the prophecy itself was spoken.
An inelegant prophecy is one in which there's nothing to convince you the writer wasn't making it up as he went along.

If the elegance and fulfillment of the prophecy are indeed separate considerations, then I consider elegance to be completely irrelevant to the question at hand and won't argue further on it.

"Ofcourse" is not an argument. Tell me in what way "I... I must succeed" helped convince V of anything at all, if that's your whole basis fpr claiming it fulfilled the prophecy.

It reminded him of his innermost motivation; not that his family be saved, but that HE and HIS arcane power be the ones to do so. He was faced with the reality, not that the alternate plan could succeed, but that IF it could he would still rather reject it and mortgage his soul for the chance to handle things himself.

The operative word here is "I." I must succeed. His main concern was no longer stopping the dragon or ensuring his family's safety; his main concern was getting the power to do so. It was always the end, rather than the means, but that moment was when he finally admitted it to himself.

No, you're misremembering. That was *Elan's* reason for thinking it was for the Greater Good. V's reasons were "I saved us all from a second tedious trial scene". They also were that Kubota's trial would take weeks "20 or 30 strips of humorless drudgery".

In short V's reasons was that he hated the *tedium* of it all. That Kubota was a villain merely made him a valid target -- but it was NOT V's reasons for killing him.

In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html he also mentions "the haste with which I will remove that which distracts me from my crucial research". Again nothing about Kubota's villainy being a reason.

It is you who has forgotten; in this case, exactly what the aim of V's "crucial research" was. Reuniting the Order, resurrecting Roy, and going to the next gate could not wait on Kubota's trivial diversions, and with Kubota alive he saw only delays. I'm not saying that was sufficient reason to kill him - there were certainly less drastic ways of neutralizing him - but with Kubota unchecked, the fleet, and by extension Vaarsuvius, would be continually mired in minutiae that would distract from his research.

In fact, the entire scene on the island, and V's involvement was Kubota's doing. Naturally, V didn't know that; but killing Kubota for the right reasons doesn't require V to know what those reasons are.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 05:00 PM

If the elegance and fulfillment of the prophecy are indeed separate considerations, then I consider elegance to be completely irrelevant to the question at hand and won't argue further on it.

Well, the considerations are connected in one point -- that I believe the Giant to be a good enough writer that he's more likely to have chosen the more elegant fulfillment than the less elegant one.

But that's not a certainty. Heavens knows fiction has given us lots of inelegant prophecies as well. For every Eowyn killing the Witch-king, there's a Sheridan dreaming "You're the hand." (what a disappointment *that* fulfillment was)

Thusly, though I consider the Giant a better writer than JMS was, I try not to let the elegance of the DGoW fulfillment to bias me too much.

It reminded him of his innermost motivation; not that his family be saved, but that HE and HIS arcane power be the ones to do so. He was faced with the reality, not that the alternate plan could succeed, but that IF it could he would still rather reject it and mortgage his soul for the chance to handle things himself.

You're still not able to make the causal link. Realizing that he would accept it even in OTHER circumstances doesn't indicate how it caused him to accept it in even THESE circumstances. If anything it indicate the opposite -- that he would accept the bargain no matter what. So the words weren't needed. Knowing his own reasons (right or wrong) weren't needed. He'd make the bargain anyway, whether he would have come to that realization or not.

It is you who has forgotten; in this case, exactly what the aim of V's "crucial research" was.

The true aim of V's crucial research is his both prideful and selfloathing-filled need to have his arcane power be useful for once. In this it's not very different from the wrong reasons of IIMS.

David Argall

2009-07-01, 05:49 PM

Not a problem, since there is no reason to expect V to list all significant factor - or even one, to be fair; he does not explicitly mention his guilt or his pride either, you will notice.
Both of these seem to be irrelevancies here. They may or may not motivate her desire to solve the problem of contacting Haley, but they do not enter into his decision to do so by leaving the ship. "I find ship conditions bad for success" does relate to that decision. So would "I am fleeing so I won't be arrested and tried." But V makes no effort to single out the death of Kubota. She lumps it in with a large number of other events.

There is indeed a deadline, and they all nearly missed it. Hadn't they all acted in the small window of opportunity that was opened between V leaving Durkon and Elan and Haley sending her call, V would not be alone and would be far less vulnerable to their manipulations.
So what are the odds V would have been alone in the future? On the face of it, they seem about 100%. Indeed, even the presence of the entire party would seem to make no difference. Mama is shown as an epic level encounter, one that could have wiped the entire party. She declined to attack the fleet merely out of caution, and so being a little less cautious in the future will give her plenty of chances.

If we assume that the ABD and the IFCC are willing and able to wait for such an opportunity, that is.
Both seem quite long on patience. ABD seems to have been waiting already for months.

For all we know, they can not afford to; after all, the Snarl has grown considerably already.
AFAWK, the Snarl has not grown at all. A rift has, but it is still entirely inactive.
And when we use phrases like "for all we know", we are deep in speculation, mostly reviewing the highly unlikely. This may be sufficient reason not to act, but it is quite weak support for any argument. It can be enough to not rule absolutely there will be later chances, but it doesn't prevent us from saying that is the most likely case.

dr.cello

2009-07-01, 06:18 PM

Except that the comic isn't about V. It's about the Order as a whole, with this one book being a side-trek for purposes of individual character growth. Whatever climax the story comes to, it'll need to incorporate the rest of the group, on equal standing with V.

That means the grand finale can't also see the appearance of the Ultimate Arcane Power To Dwarf All Previous Ultimate Arcane Power, because if V ever became as powerful as ve was during this story-arc, and has learned from this experience to use that power with prudence, then V will stomp Team Evil into tapioca all by virself and there'll be nothing for the others to do. It would make V into a Marty Sue (Mary Stu?) in the end, and undo all of the character growth V has experience to date, by eliminating the need for allies and cooperation which ve's only just accepted are worthwhile.

Sure, if you want to be unimaginative about it.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 06:25 PM

You're still not able to make the causal link. Realizing that he would accept it even in OTHER circumstances doesn't indicate how it caused him to accept it in even THESE circumstances. If anything it indicate the opposite -- that he would accept the bargain no matter what. So the words weren't needed. Knowing his own reasons (right or wrong) weren't needed. He'd make the bargain anyway, whether he would have come to that realization or not.

What "other" circumstances? They are the same. Time pressure, a fiend at hand, and willingness to barter his essence to get what he needs. "I cannot fail again! Quick, take my soul!" It's the same situation whether he says it to Qarr or to the IFCC. The only difference is that the latter was actually able to deliver; and the price they extracted in return was dispelling any illusions he had that he was doing it for a noble cause. In other words, he did it for the wrong reasons, thus satisfying the prophecy to the letter at that very moment.

The true aim of V's crucial research is his both prideful and selfloathing-filled need to have his arcane power be useful for once. In this it's not very different from the wrong reasons of IIMS.

Naturally, but this self-loathing wasn't related at all to the killing of Kubota. Kubota's death meant nothing to him; it was the constant distractions brought on by the other members of the fleet coming to him for help that he was trying to forestall. His methods to do that were wrong, but he did indeed succeed at forestalling those distractions.

And it is precisely because his methods were wrong that he ended up creating another distraction; namely, Elan's pesky morality and two very nosy paladins.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 06:54 PM

What "other" circumstances? They are the same. Time pressure, a fiend at hand, and willingness to barter his essence to get what he needs. "I cannot fail again! Quick, take my soul!" It's the same situation whether he says it to Qarr or to the IFCC. The only difference is that the latter was actually able to deliver; and the price they extracted in return was dispelling any illusions he had that he was doing it for a noble cause. In other words, he did it for the wrong reasons, thus satisfying the prophecy to the letter at that very moment.

Look, I agree with you he made the deal for wrong reasons. That wasn't the point we were discussing now. In this point I asked you to defend the causal connection that you claim IIMS has. Please remember to stick to this point.

Time pressure. A fiend at hand. Willingness to barter his essense: Those ARE some of the causes.

His coming to the realization that he would make the bargain regardless of his having other alternatives or not, is not a CAUSE for him to make the bargain. So the four words IIMS did NOT cause him to have the power. They did not convince him to accept the power (indeed your very argument was that they instead represent the conclusion that he would want to accept the power anyway).

You've not remotely shown ANY causal connection between V saying the words and him accepting the bargain. Not via "convincing himself" nor via any other method.

Until you show me how the words IIMS are supposed to have caused him to have the power, or to have convinced him to get the power, these words aren't even a reasonable candidate for fulfilling the prophecy.

Optimystik

2009-07-01, 07:04 PM

Until you show me how the words IIMS are supposed to have caused him to have the power, or to have convinced him to get the power, these words aren't even a reasonable candidate for fulfilling the prophecy.

That you are still asking this shows me you missed the reason behind all my "wrong reasons" explanations. IIMS convinced him because, up until that point, he was able to safely delude himself into thinking that he had no choice but to trade his soul for his family's safety. After the Fiends showed him otherwise, he lacked that moral conviction to continue.

Instead, he fell back on greed. IIMS was a reminder to himself that arcane power is worth any price, and that the satisfaction he would feel at using it to solve his problems would outweigh any guilt he might feel later ("we won't tell your family if you won't.")

Thus, IIMS satisfies the causal relationship because without reassuring himself, he wouldn't have mustered the nerve to accept their offer, knowing that he was doing so not out of righteousness, but out of selfishness.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-01, 08:20 PM

That you are still asking this shows me you missed the reason behind all my "wrong reasons" explanations. IIMS convinced him because, up until that point, he was able to safely delude himself into thinking that he had no choice but to trade his soul for his family's safety. After the Fiends showed him otherwise, he lacked that moral conviction to continue.

Instead, he fell back on greed. IIMS was a reminder to himself that arcane power is worth any price, and that the satisfaction he would feel at using it to solve his problems would outweigh any guilt he might feel later ("we won't tell your family if you won't.")

Thus, IIMS satisfies the causal relationship because without reassuring himself, he wouldn't have mustered the nerve to accept their offer, knowing that he was doing so not out of righteousness, but out of selfishness.

That's... one of the flimsiest house of cards I've ever seen anyone construct in these forums -- and yet it's seemingly the necessary *foundation* for an interpretation that still seems to be believed by the majority of the forumgoers.

Since our psychological readings of that scene are so completely different, I don't know where further discussion can go. To me V is never motivated by "greed" (possessiveness) -- he's always motivated by pride. The alternate path offered by the fiends was a humiliating one, taking away the proud righteousness he had tried to clothe himself into. But V can't lower his pride the one step further that is needed, to use a plan that would require him humiliating himself to Durkon whom he was contemptuous toward.

To me the words IIMS in that scene, don't cause anything, they merely reveal those last shreds of pride that V can't shake away: his need to succeed by himself, without seeking the help of Durkon.

Sholos

2009-07-01, 09:46 PM

You call that a flimsy house of cards, and then go and construct something along the lines of the Oracle protesting that Belkar's prophecy had come true by him causing the death of Roy by giving him the Ring of Jumping +20? Heck, that was a better causal link to Roy's death than DGOW was to V gaining any power. Roy literally would have been unable to engage Xykon without the ring. Without engaging Xykon, it's unlikely he would have died.

Random832

2009-07-01, 09:53 PM

Right, but that wasn't what fulfilled that prophecy. Stabbing the oracle was.

Sholos

2009-07-01, 10:17 PM

Right, but that wasn't what fulfilled that prophecy. Stabbing the oracle was.

Um, yeah? That was kinda my point.

The Extinguisher

2009-07-01, 11:35 PM

What's the problem with circular meaning with this?

The oracle heard V's question, looked in the future and saw what happened before he got the power, and relayed what happened.

In this case, the "right" words are the "words that give him Ultimate Arcane Power". You have to use circular logic when dealing with people who can see into the future.

spargel

2009-07-01, 11:49 PM

I don't really get why the alternate plan was so much more damaging to V's pride. If she takes the alternate plan (Assuming it will succeed, even though it's impossible), she would have failed to succeed by herself. If she takes the soul splice, she's still relying on the fiends and three souls to help her succeed.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-02, 02:10 AM

You call that a flimsy house of cards, and then go and construct something along the lines of the Oracle protesting that Belkar's prophecy had come true by him causing the death of Roy by giving him the Ring of Jumping +20?

Yes, I'm calling that a flimsy house of cards, and then go and construct what is in my opinion a much sturdier one.

Better a long line of causality, then the lack of any causal connection at all (which is what IIMS is -- the lack of causality)

I'm sorry that different opinions offend you.

Heck, that was a better causal link to Roy's death than DGOW was to V gaining any power. Roy literally would have been unable to engage Xykon without the ring. Without engaging Xykon, it's unlikely he would have died.

I'd actually wouldn't have had a problem with Roy's death being the fulfillment of that prophecy either -- but in that case the Giant had something much more causally direct in mind. Here you want me to believe that the Giant has something in mind that I would need a whole page of arbitrary reading-between-the-panels to even be able to read as causally connected at all.

Optimystik

2009-07-02, 02:31 AM

That's... one of the flimsiest house of cards I've ever seen anyone construct in these forums -- and yet it's seemingly the necessary *foundation* for an interpretation that still seems to be believed by the majority of the forumgoers.

I'm sorry you think so. For the record, I find your version of events to be far flimsier, especially since it relies upon either bad writing by the Giant, or some desire on his part to trick the majority of his readers. When the next book's commentary sheds light on this, I'll be glad to just cite the page number at you, and preclude any discussion on the matter.

Since our psychological readings of that scene are so completely different, I don't know where further discussion can go. To me V is never motivated by "greed" (possessiveness) -- he's always motivated by pride. The alternate path offered by the fiends was a humiliating one, taking away the proud righteousness he had tried to clothe himself into. But V can't lower his pride the one step further that is needed, to use a plan that would require him humiliating himself to Durkon whom he was contemptuous toward.

The difference between greed (wanting the power to save his family to come from him) and pride (not wanting to have to run to anyone else for help) is a moot one in this instance. The result is the same - he can't bring himself to take any alternative, regardless of its feasibility, and so he... he must succeed.

To me the words IIMS in that scene, don't cause anything, they merely reveal those last shreds of pride that V can't shake away: his need to succeed by himself, without seeking the help of Durkon.

How you can get that far into the scene, yet refuse to take the last step (taking the deal, and thus gaining UAP) remains utterly beyond me.

What's the problem with circular meaning with this?

The oracle heard V's question, looked in the future and saw what happened before he got the power, and relayed what happened.

In this case, the "right" words are the "words that give him Ultimate Arcane Power". You have to use circular logic when dealing with people who can see into the future.

Thank you. There's hope for the forum yet.

Nimrod's Son

2009-07-02, 02:50 AM

In this case, the "right" words are the "words that give him Ultimate Arcane Power". You have to use circular logic when dealing with people who can see into the future.
I made that exact point several pages back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116122&page=6#159), but I'm glad you brought up again because it was completely ignored, despite Aris quoting a less-important part of the same post.

Aris Katsaris

2009-07-02, 03:15 AM

What's the problem with circular meaning with this?

The oracle heard V's question, looked in the future and saw what happened before he got the power, and relayed what happened.

The first problem with this hypothesis is that the oracle wasn't using the preposition "After" or "While", he used the preposition "By". If he'd used the preposition "After" I wouldn't have a problem with this. But he used the preposition "By" which indicates a cause-effect relation. No causal outcome resulted from V's words. He could have stayed silent and he'd still have attained the same power.

To use Sholos' example that's what makes this interpretation even flimsier than the "Belkar caused Roy's death" interpretation -- Roy might have not encountered Xykon without the ring of jumping, but V had already been offered the deal and he could have accepted with or without saying ANYTHING AT ALL.

But he'd never have been offered the deal if Kubota's killing with DGoW hadn't led Qarr to him, and if it hadn't isolated him from his friends at a crucial period in time.

The second problem is that by using a definition of "right" of "whatever ends up fulfilling the prophecy" makes the interpretation circular and therefore ANY words uttered at that point sufficient to fulfill it. If one's already determined to believe that the words fulfilled the prophecy and argues backwards from there, there's no argument that's possible.

Keep in mind that I'm willing to accept that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." is ALSO a red herring, and that both this and IIMS were designed so that V's eventual attainment of UAP occurs without him ever expecting it, thinking the prophecy already fulfilled.

But Optimystik argues that it's not even that. That it was coincidence four words serving the Greater Good (but for a far worse motivation) were used at that crucial point in time, leading to Qarr seeking out V, and V evicting himself from the presence of his friends.

All a coincidence. DGoW not even a red herring. Sheesh.

For the record, I find your version of events to be far flimsier, especially since it relies upon either bad writing by the Giant, or some desire on his part to trick the majority of his readers

Heavens forbid that writers ever use red herrings. That is never ever done.

I think your inability to accept the possibility of an author using red herrings cripples definitevely your analytical skills. You're like a
police detective that can't conceive of a suspect lying to him.