quick questions regarding hiding [4E]

[Kol Korran]

ok, so here are my questions:
1) if a rogue for example is hidden, then he makes a ranged attack. if he has full concealment/ total cover can he try and hide again? does he have to move in order to do it (seem silly to me)? if not, does the hide take any actions?

2) if you move and hide, when do you disappear from view? at the start of the move, or at the end of it? or maybe you can disappear in the middle? the reason i'm asking is that if it's only at the end, then it's quite easy to locate the square the hidden creature is inm whihc seems to be countering the idea of hiding.

thanks for any and all answers,
Kol.

[Gralamin]

First, make sure your looking at the newest Stealth rules (Update or PHB2)

1) Attacking Explicitly causes you to no longer be hidden unless stated otherwise. You would have to move again to become Hidden. Think of it as running off to hide somewhere else now that they've seen you.

2) Stealth checks are always made at the end of a move action unless a power states otherwise.

[Colmarr]

Attacking Explicitly causes you to no longer be hidden unless stated otherwise. You would have to move again to become Hidden. Think of it as running off to hide somewhere else now that they've seen you.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the rules state that you make a hide check at the end of a move action, meaning that you could spend a move action but not atually move, and still make a hide check.

It seems odd to suggest that a creature can't hide in a completely obscured area that is 5ft by 5ft simply because it made an attack from that area. The move action in those circumstances (IMO) represents the creature taking active steps to disguise it's exact location.

[NPCMook]

Just remember you must beat the passive perception of all enemies who can see you.

[Gralamin]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the rules state that you make a hide check at the end of a move action, meaning that you could spend a move action but not atually move, and still make a hide check.

It seems odd to suggest that a creature can't hide in a completely obscured area that is 5ft by 5ft simply because it made an attack from that area. The move action in those circumstances (IMO) represents the creature taking active steps to disguise it's exact location.

You could hide in the same space, but it wouldn't be a very bright idea since the enemy is likely moving towards you now.

[Colmarr]

You could hide in the same space, but it wouldn't be a very bright idea since the enemy is likely moving towards you now.

Oddly enough, the 4e rules don't really make much of a distinction in that regard. If you have superior cover or total concealment, enemies get a -5 attack penalty regardless of whether you are hidden or not.

The only real difference being hidden makes is that enemies need to guess which square you're in. That's fine and dandy in principle, but:


if you're in an area (as opposed to just one square) of superior cover or total concealment, they really should be guessing anyway even if you're not hidden; and
(assuming your DM doesn't buy into reasoning #1) your DM knows where your PC is, so their guess is likely going to be pretty good.

[Gralamin]

1) Fails because the newest Update states that if your invisible, but not hidden, all creatures know which square your in.
2) Fails in the situation of a fair game. If your opponent does wade in and follow you, its likely going to go with one of the following two ways:
A) Attack where you just where, or
B) Ready an Action to charge to wherever you attack from.

Both are completely RAW ways to stop it.

[Kol Korran]

um, one more question, that sprang to my mind. say a rogue is hidden and then attacks. his attacks makes it visible, but up till then he was basically hidden, so.. does he get a combat advantage (sneak attack)? i have so far been playing that he does (seemed to me to be the whole point in hiding). but might i be wrong?
just making sure.

also, i thought that superior cover doesn't make the enemies have to guess where you are unless you're hidden. just concealment does that i thought...

thanks for the responses so far Colmarr and Gralamin. oh, and NPCMook

[Magentawolf]

If you are hidden and make an attack, yes. You gain all of the benefits of being hidden until the end of the attack. Since they are unaware of you, you get CA over them.

[Oracle_Hunter]

um, one more question, that sprang to my mind. say a rogue is hidden and then attacks. his attacks makes it visible, but up till then he was basically hidden, so.. does he get a combat advantage (sneak attack)? i have so far been playing that he does (seemed to me to be the whole point in hiding). but might i be wrong?
just making sure.

also, i thought that superior cover doesn't make the enemies have to guess where you are unless you're hidden. just concealment does that i thought...

thanks for the responses so far Colmarr and Gralamin. oh, and NPCMook
From the Errata:

Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.
Really, download the Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates) and read it over.

Also, in terms of Total Concealment:

Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.
So, someone in Total Concealment who is not Hidden can be targeted normally (albeit at a -5 to hit); basically you can hear them moving around enough to know where they are (generally), though it is still hard to hit them. Basically, Stealth is the skill for concealing your true location from the enemy; if you fail to do that, they don't have to guess where you might be.

Also: Superior Cover does not grant Invisibility.