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ghost_warlock
2009-06-25, 05:32 AM
So, I posted a request (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6348201&postcount=1725) in the Character Build thread and, after a couple days with no takers, decided to do some self-education and see what I could come up with myself.

The character will be used by a friend of mine for an online game (still haven't decided on the medium). The idea is to get a bunch of our old college gaming group together online for another huzzah. :smallsmile:

Since this friend hasn't played D&D in years, he asked me to come up with a stealthy, stabbity character similar to an old character of his but not identical. For a change of pace, I thought I'd try something from the Tome of Battle rather than a standard rogue build.

Due to campaign restrictions on class and race, this is what I came up with:

Race: psionic whisper gnome (psi-like rather than spell-like abilities).
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10.
Starting Level: ECL 2.
Other: the campaign uses traits & flaws; to be determined later.
Build (Shadows and Flame):
1st - Swordsage 1. Feats: Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Adaptive Style, Darkstalker.
2nd - Swashbuckler 1. Feat: Weapon Finesse.
3rd - Swordsage 2. Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting.
4th - Swordsage 3. Stat bonus: Wis.
5th - Swordsage 4. Insightful Strike: Shadow Hand.
6th - Swordsage 5. Feat: Blade Meditation.
7th - Warblade 1.
8th - Warblade 2. Stat bonus: Dex.
9th - Warblade 3. Feat: Gloom Razor.
10th - Swordsage 6.
11th - Swordsage 7.
12th - Swordsage 8. Defensive Stance: Shadow Hand. Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Stat bonus: Dex.
13th - Swordsage 9.
14th - Swordsage 10.
15th - Swordsage 11. Feat: Dual Strike.
16th - Swordsage 12. Insightful Strike: Diamond Mind. Stat bonus: Dex.
17th - Swordsage 13.
18th - Swordsage 14. Feat: Extra Readied Maneuver.
19th - Swordsage 15.
20th - Swordsage 16. Defensive Stance: Desert Wind. Stat bonus: Dex.

Maneuvers/Stances:
1st - M Clinging Shadow Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, S Island of Blades.
3rd - M Sapphire Nightmare Blade, S Child of Shadow.
4th - M Shadow Jaunt.
5th - M Cloak of Deception, Replace Distracting Ember -> Fire Riposte.
6th - M Mind Over Body, S Assassin's Stance.
7th - M Leading the Attack, Tactical Strike, Wall of Blades, S Punishing Stance.
8th - M Lion's Roar.
9th - M Iron Heart Surge.
10th - M Obscuring Shadow Veil, Replace Burning Blade -> Searing Blade.
11th - M Rapid Counter.
12th - M Leaping Flame, Replace Shadow Jaunt -> Shadow Stride.
13th - M Stalker in the Night, S Fiery Assault.
14th - M Ring of Fire, Replace Sapphire Nightmare Blade -> Ruby Nightmare Blade
15th - M Death in the Dark.
16th - M Inferno Blade, Replace Shadow Stride -> Shadow Blink.
17th - M Enervating Shadow Strike.
18th - M One with Shadow, S Balance on the Sky, Replace Clinging Shadow Strike -> Enervating Shadow Strike.
19th - M Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.
20th - M Time Stands Still, Replace Ruby Nightmare Blade -> Diamond Nightmare Blade.

Discipline tally @ 20th:
Desert Wind: 8
Diamond Mind: 5
Iron Heart: 3
Shadow Hand: 14
White Raven: 3
Comments? Criticism? Advice?

Edit: Build ends with BAB of 16 and base F/R/W saves of 10/11/11.

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 06:10 AM
Here's the feat progression:

1st - Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand) [SS Bonus], Adaptive Style [Flaw], Darkstalker [Flaw]
2nd - Weapon Finesse [Swash Bonus]
3rd - Two-Weapon Fighting
6th - Blade Meditation
9th - Gloom Razor
12th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15th - Dual Strike.
18th - Extra Readied Maneuver.

I think there are few key omissions and excess inclusions here. First of all, Dual Strike is useless to a martial adept due to the existence of the Tiger Claw-maneuver "Wolf Fang Strike", which does the same thing. Not to mention, on those levels you can easily use Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion, Shadow Blink and so on to position yourself for a full attack (or even Pouncing Charge + one of the above to full attack and get out of way). Since he's a Two-Weapon Fighter, I'd make at least a token dip in Tiger Claw for eventually Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose and maybe Girallon Windmill Fleshrip.

Extra Readied Maneuver is also relatively weak on such a high level given the amount of maneuvers you can already ready and ready access to the rest of them in Adaptive Style; I'd rather just pick up Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Finally, I'd reconsider Blade Meditation and Gloom Razor; they are relatively low impact (although Gloom Razor is really handy), unless you plan on making a heavy use of save-giving maneuvers (which I suggest against unless you go Wisdom-focus with Intuitive Attack ).


As for feats I'd suggest, I heavily endorse "Stormguard Warrior" for all Two-Weapon Fighters. Thanks to the Warblade-dip, you have the prerequisite stance so you could add it in. It requires Ironheart Aura as a relatively useless (since you'll probably spend relatively little time in Punishing Stance) prerequisite, but the ability to Channel the Storm just [b]screams TWF. The other ability is great too, for making you hit. Note that Stormguard Warrior doesn't require you to be in an Ironheart Stance to use it.

Other than that, Craven [Champions of Ruin] is a solid option for making you Sneak Attack harder (when in Assassin's Stance), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is sorta obvious (although it'd be awesome if the three feats could be rolled into 1 so you don't have to spend a feat on an attack at -10, but that's up to DM adjudication), I'm sure you can think of a dozen other feats you'd like to have in there yourself.


With regards to classes, I'd definitely consider cutting Warblade 3 and dropping Lion's Roar (taking Iron Heart Surge on Warblade 2 instead) for Barbarian 1 and taking the Complete Champion alternative class feature of picking up Pounce. This enables Charge-maneuvers to grant you a full attack. You'd also get Rage, of which I suggest Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)-variant, which increases your Str and Dex (!!) by +4. You could even pick up Extra Rage [Complete Warrior] to get up to 3 uses of it daily.

But the reason I'm suggesting this is Pounce; then you could pick up Diamond Mind maneuver named "Bounding Assault", allowing you to get in there (from pretty much anywhere; you can move up to double move with it!) and then Shadow Blink/Quicksilver Motion to move away as a swift action, allowing you to get ~50' away from the opponent, effectively allowing you to make a full attack out of nowhere and disappear back to nowhere in one turn (of course hiding as a part of the movement/blink; get out of sight and disappear); sort of a Teleport-By Attack (almost; just fast movement instead of teleport), which really combines the two aspects of the character in stealthiness and TWFing.

As a bonus, Insightful Strike: Diamond Mind gives you Wis to damage with all those hits. Then, should you desire, you can Adaptive Style-restore the maneuvers and repeat. Or do something else. But that just seems like the perfect type of an attack run for the character. Heck, you could do Pouncing Charge round 1 and spend the whole attack doing Touch Attacks with Channeling the Storm, then teleport out, then do Bounding Assault, do real attacks for savage damage and disappear again, then recoup.

Emy
2009-06-25, 06:21 AM
What, no Magic in the Blood? :P

ghost_warlock
2009-06-25, 08:19 AM
Here's the feat progression:

1st - Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand) [SS Bonus], Adaptive Style [Flaw], Darkstalker [Flaw]
2nd - Weapon Finesse [Swash Bonus]
3rd - Two-Weapon Fighting
6th - Blade Meditation
9th - Gloom Razor
12th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15th - Dual Strike.
18th - Extra Readied Maneuver.

I think there are few key omissions and excess inclusions here. First of all, Dual Strike is useless to a martial adept due to the existence of the Tiger Claw-maneuver "Wolf Fang Strike", which does the same thing. Not to mention, on those levels you can easily use Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion, Shadow Blink and so on to position yourself for a full attack (or even Pouncing Charge + one of the above to full attack and get out of way). Since he's a Two-Weapon Fighter, I'd make at least a token dip in Tiger Claw for eventually Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose and maybe Girallon Windmill Fleshrip.
I originally had Wolf Fang Strike in the build but removed it to meet the prerequisite number of Diamond Mind maneuvers for Time Stands Still. I'll see what I can do to squeeze it, Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose, and Girallon Windmill Fleshrip in. :smallsmile:


Extra Readied Maneuver is also relatively weak on such a high level given the amount of maneuvers you can already ready and ready access to the rest of them in Adaptive Style; I'd rather just pick up Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Finally, I'd reconsider Blade Meditation and Gloom Razor; they are relatively low impact (although Gloom Razor is really handy), unless you plan on making a heavy use of save-giving maneuvers (which I suggest against unless you go Wisdom-focus with Intuitive Attack ).
I'll probably swap out Extra Readied, it was mostly just there as filler/place-holder anyway. Blade Meditation was mostly for the (small) bonus to hide and also somewhat as a place-holder. We'll probably keep Gloom Razor, though, to reinforce the sneakiness of the build, which fits the playstyle my buddy enjoys. I'd have to check with the DM, but I'm fairly certain anything from BoED is banned.


As for feats I'd suggest, I heavily endorse "Stormguard Warrior" for all Two-Weapon Fighters. Thanks to the Warblade-dip, you have the prerequisite stance so you could add it in. It requires Ironheart Aura as a relatively useless (since you'll probably spend relatively little time in Punishing Stance) prerequisite, but the ability to Channel the Storm just [b]screams TWF. The other ability is great too, for making you hit. Note that Stormguard Warrior doesn't require you to be in an Ironheart Stance to use it.
Will have to look into Stormguard Warrior, assuming there's not something better for the 2 feat slots it requires.


Other than that, Craven [Champions of Ruin] is a solid option for making you Sneak Attack harder (when in Assassin's Stance), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is sorta obvious (although it'd be awesome if the three feats could be rolled into 1 so you don't have to spend a feat on an attack at -10, but that's up to DM adjudication), I'm sure you can think of a dozen other feats you'd like to have in there yourself.
I doubt the DM will be buffing TWF. Otherwise, we're using a homebrew campaign world so we might not be able to use Forgotten Realms books; will have to check.


With regards to classes, I'd definitely consider cutting Warblade 3 and dropping Lion's Roar (taking Iron Heart Surge on Warblade 2 instead) for Barbarian 1 and taking the Complete Champion alternative class feature of picking up Pounce. This enables Charge-maneuvers to grant you a full attack. You'd also get Rage, of which I suggest Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)-variant, which increases your Str and Dex (!!) by +4. You could even pick up Extra Rage [Complete Warrior] to get up to 3 uses of it daily.
I mostly put Warblade 3 in there for Uncanny Dodge, which my buddy wanted. However, it'd be a lot less useful (especially with only 3 warblade levels) than pounce! One issue with Rage/Ferocity, however, is that he won't be able to use Concentration (and thus most of the Diamond Mind) while raging.


Heck, you could do Pouncing Charge round 1 and spend the whole attack doing Touch Attacks with Channeling the Storm, then teleport out, then do Bounding Assault, do real attacks for savage damage and disappear again, then recoup.
Huh? Are you talking about Stormguard Warrior? It doesn't grant touch attacks; it grants +4 a bonus on attacks and damage against an opponent he didn't make attacks of opportunity against when he had the chance the previous round.


What, no Magic in the Blood? :P
Well, first of all, that's a FR feat, which I'm not sure we can use. Second, he doesn't have spell-like abilities since we're using a homebrew psionic version. In fact, "magic" other than psionics and ToB stuff has been banned from the campaign.

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 08:25 AM
Will have to look into Stormguard Warrior, assuming there's not something better for the 2 feat slots it requires.

There's very little "better" for a TWFer, considering how amazing it is ;)


I mostly put Warblade 3 in there for Uncanny Dodge, which my buddy wanted. However, it'd be a lot less useful (especially with only 3 warblade levels) than pounce! One issue with Rage/Ferocity, however, is that he won't be able to use Concentration (and thus most of the Diamond Mind) while raging.

Yeah, two different gears; one when under Ferocity, he'll have to skip out on his Diamond Mind counters & Insightful Strikes, but it's just an alternative (and one that boosts his Initiative & AC while at it). As a bonus, Warblade gets Uncanny Dodge on 2, so you get both!


Huh? Are you talking about Stormguard Warrior? It doesn't grant touch attacks; it grants +4 a bonus on attacks and damage against an opponent he didn't make attacks of opportunity against when he had the chance the previous round.

Oh sorry, I meant Combat Rhythm. "Channeling the Storm" sounds like an appropriate name for making a round of "preparatory" attacks to follow up with the lethal strikes so I get the two confused. Anyways, yeah, Combat Rhythm is amazing (since you get damage bonus for each touch attack hitting and your touch attacks should usually hit).

ghost_warlock
2009-06-25, 09:41 AM
Okay, version 2. :smallsmile:
Final BAB 16, Saves F/R/W 12/10/10
Build (Shadows and Flame):
1st - Swordsage 1. Feats: Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Adaptive Style, Darkstalker.
2nd - Swashbuckler 1. Feat: Weapon Finesse.
3rd - Swordsage 2. Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting.
4th - Swordsage 3. Stat bonus: Wis.
5th - Swordsage 4. Insightful Strike: Shadow Hand.
6th - Warblade 1. Feat: Iron Heart Aura
7th - Swordsage 5.
8th - Warblade 2. Stat bonus: Dex.
9th - Barbarian 1. Feat: Gloom Razor.
10th - Swordsage 6.
11th - Swordsage 7.
12th - Swordsage 8. Defensive Stance: Shadow Hand. Feat: Stormguard Warrior. Stat bonus: Dex.
13th - Swordsage 9.
14th - Swordsage 10.
15th - Swordsage 11. Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
16th - Swordsage 12. Insightful Strike: Diamond Mind. Stat bonus: Dex.
17th - Swordsage 13.
18th - Swordsage 14. Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
19th - Swordsage 15.
20th - Swordsage 16. Defensive Stance: Diamond Mind. Stat bonus: Dex.

Maneuvers/Stances:
1st - M Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Blade Technique, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Sudden Leap, S Island of Blades.
3rd - M Wolf Fang Strike, S Child of Shadow.
4th - M Shadow Jaunt.
5th - M Cloak of Deception, Replace Distracting Ember -> Fire Riposte.
6th - M Leading the Attack, Battle Leader's Charge, Wall of Blades, S Punishing Stance.
7th - M Mind Over Body, S Assassin's Stance.
8th - M Iron Heart Surge.
10th - M Obscuring Shadow Veil, Replace Burning Blade -> Searing Blade.
11th - M Bounding Assault.
12th - M Leaping Flame, Replace Shadow Jaunt -> Shadow Stride.
13th - M Wolf Climbs the Mountain, S Fiery Assault.
14th - M Ring of Fire, Replace Sapphire Nightmare Blade -> Ruby Nightmare Blade
15th - M Death in the Dark.
16th - M Inferno Blade, Replace Shadow Stride -> Shadow Blink.
17th - M Enervating Shadow Strike.
18th - M Raging Mongoose, S Hearing the Air, Replace Ring of Fire -> Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip
19th - M Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.
20th - M Time Stands Still, Replace Ruby Nightmare Blade -> Diamond Nightmare Blade.

Discipline tally @ 20th:
Desert Wind: 5
Diamond Mind: 6
Iron Heart: 3
Shadow Hand: 10
White Raven: 2
Tiger Claw: 5
Note: Pouncing Charge is a bit redundant if the character already has pounce, so I swapped it out for Wolf Climbs the Mountain, which he should get ample opportunity to use as a Small character. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 09:48 AM
It seems pretty good. One thing I'd still try to fit in there is a single Setting Sun-maneuver: "Counter Charge" It's useful beyond belief when attacked by melee brutes (although this guy would probably usually be the attacker); they can never beat the Dex-check vs. you and you not only negate their charge, but also place them in a vulnerable position for a counterattack.

Other than that, I'd probably switch Stormguard Warrior and Gloom Razor places, to get the massive fleshrip capabilities earlier. Then I'd probably switch out Balancing in the Sky (it's a supernatural ability, and requires one empty hand; you can use it, but it's not all that good especially with all the items granting flight available on that level) for Stance of Alacrity [Diamond Mind] or Hearing the Air [Diamond Mind].

Probably Hearing the Air as that gives you means to fight opponents where none existed before. I'd imagine it would be much more useful in the long run than Balancing in the Sky, which would mostly be a backup for getting dispelled in this character's case.

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 10:31 AM
Yea, +1 on swapping out Balancing on the Sky. It appears good (wait, flight without items? NEAT!), but in reality, its rather slow and the 1 free hand req is annoying when you have to drop or sheath your offhand sword. By the time you get it (level 18!!!), you'll have the cash to get some form of permanant flight such as Wings of Flying or the ZOMGasm Phoenix Cloak (MIC). Get something more useful.

I dunno what level you are starting at, but if you can at all, I'd try to push back your Warblade levels as much as you can. If you can manage WB1 at level 9, you could get both White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge. White Raven Tactics is awesome, especially if 2 characters have it, since you can essentially take 3 turns between the 2 of you at the higher of your 2 inits. Even without a friend, WRT is great.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-25, 12:33 PM
It seems pretty good. One thing I'd still try to fit in there is a single Setting Sun-maneuver: "Counter Charge" It's useful beyond belief when attacked by melee brutes (although this guy would probably usually be the attacker); they can never beat the Dex-check vs. you and you not only negate their charge, but also place them in a vulnerable position for a counterattack.
I'm not sure where I'd fit it in without sacrificing maneuvers needed as prerequisites later. In any case, most encounters for this character should start with him hidden or positioned behind his buddies.


Other than that, I'd probably switch Stormguard Warrior and Gloom Razor places, to get the massive fleshrip capabilities earlier.
I'll see what he wants to do. Honestly, I think he'll prefer Gloom Razor since it can grant invisibility and set opponents up for sneak attack.


Then I'd probably switch out Balancing in the Sky (it's a supernatural ability, and requires one empty hand; you can use it, but it's not all that good especially with all the items granting flight available on that level) for Stance of Alacrity [Diamond Mind] or Hearing the Air [Diamond Mind].

Probably Hearing the Air as that gives you means to fight opponents where none existed before. I'd imagine it would be much more useful in the long run than Balancing in the Sky, which would mostly be a backup for getting dispelled in this character's case.
Will do. :smallsmile:


Yea, +1 on swapping out Balancing on the Sky. It appears good (wait, flight without items? NEAT!), but in reality, its rather slow and the 1 free hand req is annoying when you have to drop or sheath your offhand sword. By the time you get it (level 18!!!), you'll have the cash to get some form of permanant flight such as Wings of Flying or the ZOMGasm Phoenix Cloak (MIC). Get something more useful.

I dunno what level you are starting at, but if you can at all, I'd try to push back your Warblade levels as much as you can. If you can manage WB1 at level 9, you could get both White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge. White Raven Tactics is awesome, especially if 2 characters have it, since you can essentially take 3 turns between the 2 of you at the higher of your 2 inits. Even without a friend, WRT is great.
Unfortunately, he needs Iron Heart Aura at 6th for his feat progression since Gloom Razor and Stormguard Warrior both require BAB +6 and can't be taken earlier. Besides, I'm thinking one of the other characters will be a barb/warblade so we'll see if we can fit it in there. Also, there's psion in the party that will have anticipatory strike.

Person_Man
2009-06-25, 12:49 PM
My suggestion is to drop Swashbuckler, Warblade, and Barbarian. Go strait Swordsage. Not only is it far less cumbersome, it's far more powerful. Multiclassing screws your blade magic progression. And higher level blade magic is far more powerful then any abilities you might pick up dipping.

Swashbuckler is a pretty worthless class beyond low levels, and it's not worth giving up a level of blade magic progression for a bonus feat, especially when you have flaws.

Warblade rocks, but not with an Int of 12. Uncanny Dodge is only useful if you lose Initiative or are Surprised. For a high Dex build with many stealth options, that should rarely or never happen. Plus your Wis bonus to AC applies to flat footed and touch attacks. And you can negate Sneak Attack with Fortification. So it's a non-issue.

You don't need to dip into Barbarian to get Pounce, especially for this build. Here's a list (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5729563) to choose from. Note how many ToB manuevers there are on that list - Sudden Leap, Counter Charge, Pouncing Charge, Desert Tempest, etc. Also note that the ToB is filled with excellent Standard Action manuevers. And it's easy to buy a Belt of Battle and/or Psicrown of the Evader (which non-psionic characters can use).

Since you're starting at ECL 2, I'd remind you that there are many ToB manuevers which are excellent at a very specific ECL, that are far less useful when you gain levels. That's fine, since you can swap out often, especially as a strait Swordsage. You might want to email your friend this link (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956362) to read through. It's very helpful.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-25, 01:14 PM
My suggestion is to drop Swashbuckler, Warblade, and Barbarian. Go strait Swordsage. Not only is it far less cumbersome, it's far more powerful. Multiclassing screws your blade magic progression. And higher level blade magic is far more powerful then any abilities you might pick up dipping.
At 20th level this character is considered an 18th level swordsage and has access to a number of 8th- and 9th-level maneuvers. Multiclassing doesn't really hurt his manuever progression much.


Swashbuckler is a pretty worthless class beyond low levels, and it's not worth giving up a level of blade magic progression for a bonus feat, especially when you have flaws.
Swashbuckler is mainly for Weapon Finesse, which he otherwise can't get before 3rd thanks to the +1 BAB requirement. Also, swash features more skill points and better class skills than the standard fighter dip would add and this character won't benefit at all from the only thing fighter would give that swash doesn't (armor proficiencies).


Warblade rocks, but not with an Int of 12. Uncanny Dodge is only useful if you lose Initiative or are Surprised. For a high Dex build with many stealth options, that should rarely or never happen. Plus your Wis bonus to AC applies to flat footed and touch attacks. And you can negate Sneak Attack with Fortification. So it's a non-issue.
Warblade dip is for d12 Hit Dice and the Iron Heart/White Raven manuevers, which he can't get as swordsage. The only warblade feature he gets that relies on Int is a bonus on Reflex saves, which shouldn't be an issue with his Dex.


You don't need to dip into Barbarian to get Pounce, especially for this build. Here's a list (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5729563) to choose from. Note how many ToB manuevers there are on that list - Sudden Leap, Counter Charge, Pouncing Charge, Desert Tempest, etc. Also note that the ToB is filled with excellent Standard Action manuevers. And it's easy to buy a Belt of Battle and/or Psicrown of the Evader (which non-psionic characters can use).
The barbarian dip also nets another d12 HD and the Ferocity will likely see use. Besides, having pounce available without readying/expending a maneuver to get it will be handy. As for psionics, this character will be considered psionic so that won't be an issue. I think the DM was thinking of dropping the bonus vs. giants since the campaign world doesn't really feature them; he might end up giving the race a 1-or-2-pt psionic Natural Talent feature.


Since you're starting at ECL 2, I'd remind you that there are many ToB manuevers which are excellent at a very specific ECL, that are far less useful when you gain levels. That's fine, since you can swap out often, especially as a strait Swordsage. You might want to email your friend this link (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956362) to read through. It's very helpful.
Actually, I e-mailed him a link to this thread a bit ago so now he has both links. :smallsmile: I've looked through the ToB handbook over at gleemax before, it's what I based the first version of this build on.

Person_Man
2009-06-25, 03:11 PM
At 20th level this character is considered an 18th level swordsage and has access to a number of 8th- and 9th-level maneuvers. Multiclassing doesn't really hurt his manuever progression much.

Correct. And if he were starting at ECL 20, that wouldn't be much of a deal. But at every ECL during his progression before level 20 he'll be one or two levels behind. At ECL 3 he'll have 1st level manuevers instead of 2nd. At ECL 9 he'll have 4th level Swordsage and 3rd level Warblade manuevers instead of 5th level Swordsage manuevers. He also slows his attainment on Quick to Act, Discipline Focus, and Evasion (gained at ECL 13 instead of ECL 9). And he never gets Improved Evasion or the capstone of Duel Boost.


Swashbuckler is mainly for Weapon Finesse, which he otherwise can't get before 3rd thanks to the +1 BAB requirement.

You can't wait one level, and maybe use thrown or ranged weapons in the mean time? Also, you're delaying your Swordsages Wis to AC bonus.


Also, swash features more skill points and better class skills than the standard fighter dip would add and this character won't benefit at all from the only thing fighter would give that swash doesn't (armor proficiencies).

Yes, but they both get worse Skills compared to the Swordsage.


Warblade dip is for d12 Hit Dice and the Iron Heart/White Raven manuevers, which he can't get as swordsage. The only warblade feature he gets that relies on Int is a bonus on Reflex saves, which shouldn't be an issue with his Dex.

I don't think 2 hit points (on average) is a reason to take a class. And in regards to Int, it also applies to the Saving Throws of any manuevers you gain from being a Warblade, so be sure to only pick defensive or buff Iron Heart/White Raver manuevers. (And I fully concede that there are many of them).


The barbarian dip also nets another d12 HD and the Ferocity will likely see use. Besides, having pounce available without readying/expending a maneuver to get it will be handy.

Again, I don't think that 2 hit points and a once per day minor bonus to Str/Dex is worth it. Since it's so easy to buy Hustle/Pounce other ways, I don't think a dip is worth it.

Also, I'd like to stress that I don't think any of your choices are bad choices. I just think it's just over complicated for an inexperienced-ish player, and that having access to higher level manuevers and Swordsage abilities outweigh the benefits of dipping.

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 06:05 PM
Correct. And if he were starting at ECL 20, that wouldn't be much of a deal. But at every ECL during his progression before level 20 he'll be one or two levels behind. At ECL 3 he'll have 1st level manuevers instead of 2nd. At ECL 9 he'll have 4th level Swordsage and 3rd level Warblade manuevers instead of 5th level Swordsage manuevers. He also slows his attainment on Quick to Act, Discipline Focus, and Evasion (gained at ECL 13 instead of ECL 9). And he never gets Improved Evasion or the capstone of Duel Boost.

It's worth noting though that ToB characters multiclass well. This isn't nearly as much of an issue as for a caster.


You can't wait one level, and maybe use thrown or ranged weapons in the mean time? Also, you're delaying your Swordsages Wis to AC bonus.

It's also one less feat. Seeing how crammed he's for feats, this is a big issue.


I don't think 2 hit points (on average) is a reason to take a class. And in regards to Int, it also applies to the Saving Throws of any manuevers you gain from being a Warblade, so be sure to only pick defensive or buff Iron Heart/White Raver manuevers. (And I fully concede that there are many of them).

Actually not, saving throws are derived off the stat stated in the book; most use Dex, Str with Shadow Hand pretty much the only one going heavily for Wis. No maneuver in ToB uses Int.


Again, I don't think that 2 hit points and a once per day minor bonus to Str/Dex is worth it. Since it's so easy to buy Hustle/Pounce other ways, I don't think a dip is worth it.

Immediate bonus to Initiative can be useful very well, as can a bonus to hit and damage. But it's especially worth it for Bounding Assault, which really increases his mobility when combined with Pounce (it's an unimpressive maneuver otherwise).

Draz74
2009-06-25, 06:32 PM
Actually not, saving throws are derived off the stat stated in the book; most use Dex, Str with Shadow Hand pretty much the only one going heavily for Wis. No maneuver in ToB uses Int.

Desert Wind (lots of saves): WIS
Devoted Spirit (few saves): CHA
Diamond Mind (few saves): STR
Iron Heart (few saves): STR
Setting Sun (few saves): DEX
Shadow Hand (lots of saves): WIS
Stone Dragon (lots of saves): STR
Tiger Claw (medium amount of saves): STR
White Raven (no saves): n/a

Eldariel
2009-06-25, 06:56 PM
IIRC, few schools have multiples. At least Setting Sun has Clever Positioning for base-Dex and Comet Throw and that one other thing for base-Str. I think Diamond Mind had a Dex- and an Str-based one too.

Draz74
2009-06-25, 07:53 PM
Mind Strike and Disrupting Blow are the only Diamond Mind maneuvers that provoke saves. Both are STR-based.

You're right that Setting Sun does have some discrepancies. Clever Postitioning is the one I based my mistaken declaration on; it's DEX-based save DC. Strike of the Broken Shield and Comet Throw have STR-based saves.

I could have missed some other exceptional cases, but I kind of doubt it. Even the Tiger Claw maneuvers who have "Jump check result" as their save DCs are effectively STR-based (barring certain Jump-related feats or items).

ghost_warlock
2009-06-26, 12:15 AM
Correct. And if he were starting at ECL 20, that wouldn't be much of a deal. But at every ECL during his progression before level 20 he'll be one or two levels behind. At ECL 3 he'll have 1st level manuevers instead of 2nd. At ECL 9 he'll have 4th level Swordsage and 3rd level Warblade manuevers instead of 5th level Swordsage manuevers. He also slows his attainment on Quick to Act, Discipline Focus, and Evasion (gained at ECL 13 instead of ECL 9). And he never gets Improved Evasion or the capstone of Duel Boost.
Missing out on dual boost will hurt, but I'm not sure this game will ever get to 20th anyway. The last game with this group ended around 16th if memory serves. As for the rest, true, but the only one of those that'll really hurt is Evasion which I don't honestly think will be too painful to push back. I'm not sure traps will be much of an issue in the game, most targetted damaging effects are vs. touch AC, and because arcane and divine magic are banned in the campaign there shouldn't be all that many AoEs to worry about (psions are pretty much the only characters that get access to them).


You can't wait one level, and maybe use thrown or ranged weapons in the mean time? Also, you're delaying your Swordsages Wis to AC bonus.
He could wait a level, but relying on ranged or, especially, thrown isn't optimal because of proficiencies, Small-damage, and lack of Quick Draw (which is pretty much mandatory if he's going to rely on thrown weapons). Otherwise, pushing Weapon Finesse back will inflict him with the monk syndrome - sure he'll be hard to hit but he won't really be able to contribute otherwise to a fight.


Yes, but they both get worse Skills compared to the Swordsage.
Other than rogue or maybe bard, what doesn't? :smallwink:


I don't think 2 hit points (on average) is a reason to take a class. And in regards to Int, it also applies to the Saving Throws of any manuevers you gain from being a Warblade, so be sure to only pick defensive or buff Iron Heart/White Raver manuevers. (And I fully concede that there are many of them).
I think we may be going max or 3/4 hp/HD.


Again, I don't think that 2 hit points and a once per day minor bonus to Str/Dex is worth it. Since it's so easy to buy Hustle/Pounce other ways, I don't think a dip is worth it.
Barb also increases his BAB and he won't hit a BAB of 16 unless he multiclasses into a few levels of full-BAB classes.


Also, I'd like to stress that I don't think any of your choices are bad choices. I just think it's just over complicated for an inexperienced-ish player, and that having access to higher level manuevers and Swordsage abilities outweigh the benefits of dipping.
He's not really inexperienced at 3e, per se, so much as new to ToB. He should pick up on it pretty fast, though.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the comments and build criticism, especially since it's making me reexamine a few things fairly closely. For instance, I just now realized how useful Iron Heart Surge can be when paired with Ferocity, since he can use it to remove the sickened condition when Ferocity ends. If he had more feat slots available, I'd definitely be looking into Extra Rage. :smallsmile:

I don't disagree that higher-level swordsage maneuvers are pretty sweet, but I think the gains from Iron Heart and White Raven are worth the dips. Looking through the warblade maneuvers, though, Tactical Strike is something of a weak link... I think I'll swap it out for Battle Leader's Charge.


Actually not, saving throws are derived off the stat stated in the book; most use Dex, Str with Shadow Hand pretty much the only one going heavily for Wis. No maneuver in ToB uses Int.
And I've tried to minimize the number of attacks that allow saves, anyway.


Immediate bonus to Initiative can be useful very well, as can a bonus to hit and damage. But it's especially worth it for Bounding Assault, which really increases his mobility when combined with Pounce (it's an unimpressive maneuver otherwise).
Absolutely! Because he'll usually be adding his Dex mod to damage by virtue of Shadow Blade + shortsword(s) + usually being in a Shadow Hand stance, the extra damage from the bonus to Dex will add up to a lot when TWFing.

Thanks for all the help, guys, I think we've got a pretty solid build here now thanks to your efforts. And having a few quirks to the build that aren't optimized as much as possible aren't a bad thing, imo. After all, if all we were after is strict optimization, we'd just end up playing CoDzillas and wizards all the time. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 12:51 AM
DROOD 20 NOOB!

lulz...

:P