What classes do OotS Wizards respect?

[MReav]

Wizards have this massive superiority complex toward non-wizards. Eugene's attitude toward the martial classes, V's comment about how divine magic is not real magic 650 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), wizards' attitudes toward sorcerers in Start of Darkness, the fact that Bards generally are pretty crummy...

What does that leave? Psions? They're highly intelligent, require much study and discipline, and are able to warp reality to their whims. Or do they complain about how they're a sci-fi cliche jammed haam-fistedly into a fantasy setting.

[SadisticFishing]

Well, this is just V and Eugene, both of whom are very stuck up about it.

Anything but sorcerers, imho, and that one's mostly jealousy.

[pjackson]

Well, this is just V and Eugene, both of whom are very stuck up about it.

There are at least 2 other wizards who share that attitude in SOD. So it seems fairly common amongst the wizards of OotS.

[NerfTW]

Wizards only respect wizards. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

[SadisticFishing]

Well they didn't respect Xykon for being a Sorcerer, if they're the two I'm thinking of.

Very few of them don't respect, say, Clerics.

[Bibliomancer]

Wizards only respect wizards. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

Unless they're elves. Then they only respect elven wizards.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

What does that leave? Psions? They're highly intelligent, require much study and discipline, and are able to warp reality to their whims. Or do they complain about how they're a sci-fi cliche jammed haam-fistedly into a fantasy setting.

:smallannoyed: I don't know how wizards feel about psions, but I do know that psionics has been in AD&D since 1st edition, and just because mysticism, mental ability, and other non-Vancian abilities are given scientific-sounding names doesn't mean it's a sci-fi thing that doesn't fit in fantasy.

On the topic of who they respect, I'd say Nerf has it right--wizards respect wizards, and no one else. Really, any class can come up with reasons why other classes are inferior; it's just that divine casters can have their power revoked, other magic systems are less powerful overall, and other arcane casters are more limited, so wizards are most likely to get away with the massive ego.

[Bibliomancer]

:smallannoyed: I don't know how wizards feel about psions, but I do know that psionics has been in AD&D since 1st edition, and just because mysticism, mental ability, and other non-Vancian abilities are given scientific-sounding names doesn't mean it's a sci-fi thing that doesn't fit in fantasy.

On the other hand, in Dungeons and Dragons no clear distinction is made between the arcane magic and psionics, thematically. Wizards use their minds to manipulate the code cast spells and change reality, while psions use their minds to...use psionic powers and overwrite reality. Hmm...maybe psionics is just an excuse to use a mechanical casting system that doesn't involve spells.

[MReav]

:smallannoyed: I don't know how wizards feel about psions, but I do know that psionics has been in AD&D since 1st edition, and just because mysticism, mental ability, and other non-Vancian abilities are given scientific-sounding names doesn't mean it's a sci-fi thing that doesn't fit in fantasy.

That's more a complaint I've heard about psions. I personally love psions. My preferred primary spellcaster class is the psion (specifically the Nomad. Temporal Acceleration, Decerebrate, and Time Regression ftw)


On the topic of who they respect, I'd say Nerf has it right--wizards respect wizards, and no one else. Really, any class can come up with reasons why other classes are inferior; it's just that divine casters can have their power revoked, other magic systems are less powerful overall, and other arcane casters are more limited, so wizards are most likely to get away with the massive ego.

I think it's more that Wizards see cleric magic as someone being given their powers while Wizards earn it.

[Dork Lord]

I thought a psion's powers just came naturally to them, like a Sorcerer.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

On the other hand, in Dungeons and Dragons no clear distinction is made between the arcane magic and psionics, thematically. Wizards use their minds to manipulate the code cast spells and change reality, while psions use their minds to...use psionic powers and overwrite reality. Hmm...maybe psionics is just an excuse to use a mechanical casting system that doesn't involve spells.

Not in 3e, no. In prior editions you had all of the usual psychic/mystic abilities as powers (ESP, pyrokineticism, matter alteration, time manipulation, out-of-body experiences besides astral spell, etc.) and systems of purely mental psionic combat and such. 3e psionics seems like a "just like magic, but with power points" system because it is a "just like magic, but with power points" system--what people on the WotC forums refer to as "Psionic X syndrome" because so many 3e powers are "As spell X, except as noted above."


I think it's more that Wizards see cleric magic as someone being given their powers while Wizards earn it.

I was talking about wizards getting away with their ego, not their views of other classes: clerics and druids can't be all holier-than-thou about their powers (no pun intended) because at any point deities/nature can say "You're putting yourself before me; powers gone" whereas wizards can shout "I'M BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU!!" at the top of his lungs and his power isn't affected.

[L'intrigant]

Back on topic, there's only really one wizard I think we've seen so far who hasn't been a jerk to everyone around them. This is because we only see Sangwaan for about four comics anyway, then she gets tossed over a huge wall and into a pit of raving goblinoid lunatics...

Other than that, the wizards, and pretty much arcane casters in general, seem to think themselves above the "lesser classes". OOTS sorcerers do the same thing wizards do, and Tsukiko is probably the worst about it with her "wizard on steroids" class. And let's not get into the Oracle. I'd be ranting about him for days.

[Optimystik]

The only other caster class that OotS Wizards would be likely to respect are Archivists (and possibly Artificers.) Psions are every bit as spontaneous as Sorcerers, however intelligent they may be, so Dorukan for instance would say that they "didn't earn their magic" either.

I actually like how snooty wizards are. It makes it all the more satisfying when they get their narrow, robed asses handed to them.

I was talking about wizards getting away with their ego, not their views of other classes: clerics and druids can't be all holier-than-thou about their powers (no pun intended) because at any point deities/nature can say "You're putting yourself before me; powers gone" whereas wizards can shout "I'M BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU!!" at the top of his lungs and his power isn't affected.

Well that's one problem Psions don't have to deal with either; but the idea behind being a divine caster is that you agree with your deity/philosophy pretty strongly, so the chances that your power gets yanked are pretty rare.


What does that leave? Psions? They're highly intelligent, require much study and discipline, and are able to warp reality to their whims. Or do they complain about how they're a sci-fi cliche jammed haam-fistedly into a fantasy setting.

I know plenty of psionics-haters like you; yet so many of them use mindflayers and beholders in their campaigns. :smallconfused:

[Quintis]

What about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) guy. He doesn't seem like a jerk.

[King of Nowhere]

On the topic of who they respect, I'd say Nerf has it right--wizards respect wizards, and no one else. Really, any class can come up with reasons why other classes are inferior; it's just that divine casters can have their power revoked, other magic systems are less powerful overall, and other arcane casters are more limited, so wizards are most likely to get away with the massive ego.

Or maybe it is that since wizards are very fragile, the first time they make a mistake tend to be the last one.

[MReav]

I know plenty of psionics-haters like you; yet so many of them use mindflayers and beholders in their campaigns. :smallconfused:

I don't really know that many, it's more stuff I heard on the wizard's boards.

[Omegonthesane]

Or maybe it is that since wizards are very fragile, the first time they make a mistake tend to be the last one.
This is why 20th level Wizzards are invincible, except maybe in high-level places where you reach 3rd level during basic training (e.g. OotS-verse...). If Wizard is caught unprepared, or at the end of his spells, Wizard dies. Under any other circumstance, Wizard pwns.

I'd rule that Plane Shift can break into Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion, but that's a hard position to defend, and the DM's probably better off just informing the Batman Wizard that playing as a forumite Batman Wizard is not much fun. After all, all the "Wizzard pwns all" threads assume that a wizard wants to use ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER!!!! to live out his days peacefully as far from all other company as he can possibly be.

[Snake-Aes]

What about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) guy. He doesn't seem like a jerk.

He regrets being a wizard. He'd rather be a baker.

[Ytaker]

"Oh, no, my dear; I'm really a very good man, but I'm a very bad Wizard, I must admit."

V isn't especially arrogant about his wizardhood to his party members. When he is too arrogant, say, in the first fight against Xykon, Belkar leaves him and he gets paralyzed. The second time, he makes Elan cry. The problem for any wizard is that they have far more offense than any other class, but their defense sucks. So they need meat shields, and they have to avoid pissing off their party too much, because the other classes can handle offense if need be.

All a party ever really needs is a cleric. You can't survive without healing. Wizards are optional.

[SadisticFishing]

Errr. Sorry Ytaker, completely incorrect. They have both the best offense and defense in the game.

[Ytaker]

Errr. Sorry Ytaker, completely incorrect. They have both the best offense and defense in the game.

Not really. V quickly falls to offensive attacks, and requires someone else to take the blows. You have to be very well optimized to maintain defense for a long time. Till high levels, where you can do more cheese and you have more spell slots.

[Optimystik]

All a party ever really needs is a cleric. You can't survive without healing. Wizards are optional.

First, I'd change that to "divine caster" (Scribble had no cleric, and they reached epic levels.) Second, I'd say it depends on what they're doing - you won't get far without a wizard if you're, say, researching a way to contain something that requires both arcane and divine magic.

[Ytaker]

Yeah. Druid will do fine. They can summon healing creatures, can't they? Without some healing magic, an adventure will crawl to a slow battle of attrition.

Yes, unusual situations may require magic. And wizards are very useful (and indeed, vastly overpowered late game). Most of their potential can be copied by someone else though, at lower levels.

[SadisticFishing]

Not really. They have INCREDIBLE debuffs and buffs. Like nuts.

Also, Bard can heal ;)

As for survivability, V is not wizards. V is a wizard.

[Optimystik]

Yeah. Druid will do fine. They can summon healing creatures, can't they? Without some healing magic, an adventure will crawl to a slow battle of attrition.

They CAN heal directly, you know... it's just a little bit harder (no spontaneous, and some spells are higher (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Heal.htm)).


Yes, unusual situations may require magic. And wizards are very useful (and indeed, vastly overpowered late game). Most of their potential can be copied by someone else though, at lower levels.

At lower levels, having arcane magic on your side can be even more important. Very few level 1 fighters can take on 4 level 1 goblin warriors unscathed, but a level 1 wizard can put them all to sleep for an entire minute and coup-de-grace the lot of them before the spell is up - and that's just 1 slot. Mount, Identify, and Feather Fall are also crucial, and none of them are divine spells.

[Ytaker]

Yes, which quickly run out if they're pressed, because their armour class sucks, and they have few hp. Mirror image runs out, stoneskin breaks. Enemies have dispel magic, and like to kill the wizard.

Ok then, V, as a non optimized wizard, is quite vulnerable to physical trauma, and as such, his arrogance is a major foible, since it means the other party members are less likely to defend him. Since V may not remember to buff up before a fight, or may run out of defensive spells.

Edit. And there are also undead, immune to sleep spells. For them, a level one wizard does have spells which can hurt them- but they need time. Likewise for a creatures that saves against sleep. The spells are useful, but it's incredibly important to have your meat shield.

[hamishspence]

not just that, in the case of the giant devil, V was refusing attempts by the others to keep him alive- such as healing.

[Kidmm]

Heh; did anyone else here ever read any of Terry Pratchett's DISCWORLD series? I mention it because, in the second book, there's an absolutely hilarious bit of back-and-forth about the ancient rivalry between sword-swingers and spell-slingers; bear in mind that I'm paraphrasing here, as I can't recall it exactly:

Barbarian: We can never respect a bunch of wimps who wear dresses and won't ever touch a woman because it "drains their occult power".

Wizard: In the first place, it's a mystic robe, not a dress, and in the second, what's up with all the studded collars and oiled muscles down at the Young Mens' Pagan Association, anyway?

As you might expect, Pratchett wrote it better. I hope the mention of another author didn't in some way violate the posting rules for the board.

[hamishspence]

not really- other author phrases are fine as long as they are on topic. Or explaining how some authors (terry goodkind) approve of behaviour a bit like Haley's or V's, whereas others don't.

[Optimystik]

Edit. And there are also undead, immune to sleep spells. For them, a level one wizard does have spells which can hurt them- but they need time. Likewise for a creatures that saves against sleep. The spells are useful, but it's incredibly important to have your meat shield.

I'm not denying the meat shield's importance, merely emphasizing the arcanist's.

CR 1 undead are easily handled by... just about any class but a rogue.


Yes, which quickly run out if they're pressed, because their armour class sucks, and they have few hp. Mirror image runs out, stoneskin breaks. Enemies have dispel magic, and like to kill the wizard.

By the time a Wizard has access to Stoneskin, they have Polymorph. Game over there without either DM intervention, or encounters so challenging that the fighter doesn't stand a chance anyway.

[Ytaker]

They CAN heal directly, you know... it's just a little bit harder (no spontaneous, and some spells are higher (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Heal.htm)).

Just very fond memories of a certain summon bimbo that can heal spell.

"I'm not denying the meat shield's importance, merely emphasizing the arcanist's.

CR 1 undead are easily handled by... just about any class but a rogue."

I know they're important, but they're not incredibly important. As they get more powerful, their spells become the life of the party, but lower levels, it's quite possible to play without them. Or, more importantly, it's possible, and indeed, not too hard to let them get killed by traps/monsters if you don't like them. That's why V's arrogance is stupid.

Depends on their numbers. You can have some very tough encounters.

"By the time a Wizard has access to Stoneskin, they have Polymorph. Game over there without either DM intervention, or encounters so challenging that the fighter doesn't stand a chance anyway."

If you memorize the rule books, so that whenever a monster comes up you know a good counter, certainly. Which is part of why open spells like this are overpowered. But, that's quite cheesey, and thankfully, assuming you're not too dedicated, can wait for a few levels. Unless the dm allows spell casting while polymorphed, for some reason. Then it's broken the first time you start casting it.

[Kilremgor]

Well, for considering wizards' and others' power one should also look at some basic adventuring scenarios.
Sure Wizard can pretty much escape any specific battle or deal with whatever monster given preparation.
But, is escaping and attacking predefined opponents really that important?

Scenario 1: Assault. Wizard's friend/master/lord/someone is killed while wizard was away, some McGuffin stolen from him. Murderer fled to some fortified castle, where he decides to invoke powers of McGuffin. Place is sufficiently warded against scrying and teleports. There is no idea who the opponent is or who minions are. Time is limited, no time to rest for spell selection - only standard ones can be used.

Scenario 2: Defense. An important ritual is taking place, spanning some obelisks distant (300-600ft away) from each other. Forces of evil want to disrupt the ritual, attacking some of the obelisks. Destruction of any of the obelisks is ritual's failure. Wizard's role is to defend the ritual place against enemy.

Would in those scenarious wizards still be superior to other classes? Not likely. Especially in 1, if you're time-constrained and have no idea what's you're up against... for wizard that can be deadly. Especially given that some lucky grapple in surprise round may result in The End; or even if few nasty situations are avoided, they would still result in expended spells - which may just mean cerrtain doom later. Aside from spells, there's not that much damage when enemy is not known.

Clerics and Druids are likely to exceed wizards in those scenarios, being melee-capable, heal-capable, overall harder to kill in attack and being able to sustain the assault with spontaneous casting/melee/summoning/healing far longer than wizard can.

[Optimystik]

"I know they're important, but they're not incredibly important. As they get more powerful, their spells become the life of the party, but lower levels, it's quite possible to play without them. Or, more importantly, it's possible, and indeed, not too hard to let them get killed by traps/monsters if you don't like them. That's why V's arrogance is stupid.

Dungeon of Dorukan. V is at least level 7. Plenty high enough for arrogance from the party wizard, even if it might not be wise :smallsmile:


Depends on their numbers. You can have some very tough encounters.

Their numbers change the CR, that's why I specified CR 1. A thousand CR 1 skeletons is not a CR 1 encounter (and the fighter would be in just as much trouble as the wizard at that point anyway.)


If you memorize the rule books, so that whenever a monster comes up you know a good counter, certainly. Which is part of why open spells like this are overpowered. But, that's quite cheesey, and thankfully, assuming you're not too dedicated, can wait for a few levels. Unless the dm allows spell casting while polymorphed, for some reason. Then it's broken the first time you start casting it.

Unless he houserules away RAW, he has to (as long as you change into something that can do verbal and somatic components) because you keep all mental stats. Hence my comment about DM intervention required to stop the fighter from being eclipsed.

Is an arcane caster necessary? No, but you'd be foolish to adventure without one past a certain level - just like a divine one. Clerics can't do Rope Trick in a bad dungeon, it's much harder for them to give the meat shield flight, and they have far less save-or-suck spells (Grease, Glitterdust, Sleep, Solid Fog... and that's just core)

[Ytaker]

Forbiddance is a sixth level spell. Once anyone is that high, a wizard or a druid or a cleric has strong enough spells to outclass a fighter in damage, and enough damage reduction magic to survive more hits. Unless you antimagic sphere the whole campaign, they dominate then.

Although yes, clerics and druids are even more overpowered. They have slightly less fire power and far, far more defense.

Edit. Yeah. They're useful. V only really used his powers, with feather fall, when a lizard. Silly V. I'm not saying that they're not useful. But, it's possible to survive without those powers. It's not possible to survive without healing.

I was thinking of the individual creatures, not the total CR. Like, a zombie.

What CR is a skeleton, anyway? I have no idea.

[Callista]

Well, you know, if you're playing a character that completely overpowers the rest of the party, isn't it kind of your duty to either tone it down or help the others beef their characters up a bit? It's not like anybody is going to have much fun if one character is hardly noticing encounters that can kill everybody else.

[Ancalagon]

Is an arcane caster necessary? No, but you'd be foolish to adventure without one past a certain level - just like a divine one.

Not to mention that it's a bit strange to play a fantasy game that has fancy magic - and then play without it.

Of course you can say you need the "mixed group" for the tactical advantages... but you could also say that if you play a fantasy RPG-setting with magic and gods and leave out the magic and gods, why have you not decided to play some other setting this evening? It's like deciding to play soccer this afternoon and then you go to the beach and do not bring a ball... if you leave out some crucial parts of the game, why not play some other game then?

Of course that's lots of meta-thinking again, but arance and divine magic just belong on the table when opening the D&D-books...

[Optimystik]

Edit. Yeah. They're useful. V only really used his powers, with feather fall, when a lizard. Silly V. I'm not saying that they're not useful. But, it's possible to survive without those powers. It's not possible to survive without healing.

It's very possible to survive without a dedicated "healer" - D&D isn't warcraft, after all - but it's harder using just Core.

Magic Item Compendium - Healing Belt, for instance.


I was thinking of the individual creatures, not the total CR. Like, a zombie.

What CR is a skeleton, anyway? I have no idea.

It's a template, so depends on base creature. (An ogre skeleton wouldn't be the same as a dragon skeleton, for instance.)


Well, you know, if you're playing a character that completely overpowers the rest of the party, isn't it kind of your duty to either tone it down or help the others beef their characters up a bit? It's not like anybody is going to have much fun if one character is hardly noticing encounters that can kill everybody else.

It's not the wizard player's fault that the game is imbalanced toward casters. Because the base system is broken, it's up to the DM to make sure that casters don't steal the spotlight (either houserule limits on certain spells, like polymorph and summoning; don't use enemies the melee would have trouble with, like fliers; or allow melee-friendly supplements like Tome of Battle.) But simply expecting players not to play their class to its potential is a losing proposition.

[Ytaker]

It's very possible to survive without a dedicated "healer" - D&D isn't warcraft, after all - but it's harder using just Core.

Magic Item Compendium - Healing Belt, for instance.


Hah, yeah. A healing belt on every person is pretty overpowered. It's hard though. You basically need an item which can replace most of the magic of a cleric. And there aren't many items which can do it that well. Healing Belt is vastly underpriced, for the powers it offers. Especially if you carry multiple belts around.



It's a template, so depends on base creature. (An ogre skeleton wouldn't be the same as a dragon skeleton, for instance.)


I was thinking of the human skeleton warrior. 1/3 cr.