Skeleton(undead) hd in 3.5

[Sewercop]

-Do skeletal undead still have the 20 hd cap?
The srd seems to have no mention of it under the spell animate dead.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Animate_dead

-But the skeleton template says that above 20 hd are not possible with animate dead spell.(i recon this are true)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skeleton

-Can i create skeletons with 20hd+ with create undead?

I know dragons can be made with more hd then the spell says. Based on how much hd they had before being made into skeletons.

-The spell awaken undead in spell compendium.. Do they get any feats etc?
Are there any official ruling on the awaken undead spell on what they gain?

As you can guess i am looking for a skeleton that has more than 20hd within the rules. That a caster can control. That are something other than a dragon. Some cheese are ok :)

[Duke of URL]

The skeleton template pretty much covers it. 20 HD maximum. Only the Draconomicon template for dragons exists that will supersede that.

That said, there's no real hard and fast rationale for the 20 HD rule. If your the DM, waive the rule. If you're not the DM, bribe him/her into waiving the rule.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

That said, there's no real hard and fast rationale for the 20 HD rule. If your the DM, waive the rule. If you're not the DM, bribe him/her into waiving the rule.
Agreed. It's not like you're creating anything that powerful. It's a 20+ HD skeleton or zombie.

[Jergmo]

I think that due to being able to make zombie and skeleton dragons, it should be ruled that there is a Greater Animate Dead spell, and yes, after gaining an intellect score they gain skill points and feats like a regular critter.

[hamishspence]

The dragon versions (especially for clerics) can be very powerful- with Desecrate+altar, 10th level cleric can have 40HD Zombie Dragon.

So, allowing ordinary skeletons/zombies to exceed the cap in MM, probably wouldn't break the spell, if zombie dragons are already allowed.

[Sewercop]

Hmm,, I thought it was based on what hd the dragon had before it died.
A 37 hd red dragon could become a 37 hd zombie\skeleton when animated.

Regarding awaken undead,, Do they get feats\skills based on the skeleton hd they already have? Or do they need to "level" first? What if the skelly used to be a wizard?

[Jergmo]

Hmm,, I thought it was based on what hd the dragon had before it died.
A 37 hd red dragon could become a 37 hd zombie\skeleton when animated.

Regarding awaken undead,, Do they get feats\skills based on the skeleton hd they already have? Or do they need to "level" first? What if the skelly used to be a wizard?

If you awaken a human or something with one hit dice, it becomes a level 1 warrior. If it has racial hit dice, I think it'd just have its racial hit dice and progress off of that. You aren't bringing back its former sentience; you're creating a new one.

[hamishspence]

It is- and thats the point. If you have access to a body 4 times your HD or less, you can animate it (with desecrate and altar), even if it would be way above normal max zombie HD. Red dragons at great wyrm stage have 40HD- so a cleric would seek out one of those, or transform a normal body with Polymorph Any Object, if he has a scroll of this.

Plus, normal zombies have double HD of the creature- zombie dragons don't. So you'll never be able to animate a creature that originally had more than 10HD.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Hmm,, I thought it was based on what hd the dragon had before it died.
A 37 hd red dragon could become a 37 hd zombie\skeleton when animated.

The RAW skeleton or zombie template caps HD at 20 but like I and other have said, it does not break much to have a higher HD skeleton or zombie. Dracomonicon has published rules for creating high HD Dragon skeletons or zombies with the animate dead spell but they are pretty much high HD skeletons or zombies with a couple of extras rules/clarifications.



Regarding awaken undead,, Do they get feats\skills based on the skeleton hd they already have? Or do they need to "level" first? What if the skelly used to be a wizard?
To awaken a skeleton or zombie it has to be a skeleton or zombie first and so it lost the class levels of the base creature before becoming a mindless skeleton or zombie. So if the awakened undead now has class levels it gained them after being awakened.

Create undead and create greater undead creates intelligent undead from the base creature. So you can interpret that to mean that the personality of the base creature is returned in a now twisted form. For ex, this was done in OotS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html).

If you want as the DM to say that the awaken skeleton regains some or part of its former personality that is OK.

That being said, allowing the creation an undead creature with the class levels of the base creature is a pretty powerful effect (since you are potentially creating a very powerful creature under the control of the spell caster). So it would probably make sense to allow it only with a very powerful spell. Create greater undead is already 8th level so a spell to create undead with class levels under the control of the caster is an epic spell IMHO.

[hamishspence]

Quite good extras- breath, frightful presence, spell resistance, in the case of the zombie. Skeletal is more conventional.

[Sewercop]

Guess I am going to search even more and find a way to break it then. Kobold dragon cheese with lychantrophy stacking could work, but i want it more "normal" and less cheesy. :)

And no. I don`t like breaking the rules just because it fits. I am just playing around with the idea bout making a three digits+ hd skelly.. if possible :)
Thought experiment you may call it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are many creatures that have more than 20 HD that would be considerably stronger as skeletons than the usual selection. For example, a 7th level character can use Desecrate and Animate Dead to make a Geriviar (MM3) Skeleton. That would be a CR 10 monster, which gets nine attacks/round and a 70 ft. land speed. Finding such a skeleton is up to skills like gather information, knowledge: local, and even bardic knowledge. Of course any decent DM will just say there have never been any killed in the entire region, so don't make it known that you want to animate its remains. Start by gushing about one of the Geriviar's special abilities, probably how cool the Exploding Nodules are, and talk about researching a spell that mimics it. Ask the DM about finding a Geriviar's remains so you can study it and perhaps develop an exciting new spell. Once you've succeeded in doing that, proceed to Desecrate the area and Animate Dead on the corpse, and now you've got an undead minion who's more powerful than anything you'll encounter for the next four levels.