Sabine is a...

[Anonymous Man]

Succubus. In #637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) the archfiends say, "-A succubus who has been working under Director Lee." Who else could they be referring to? So yeah, I think she's a succubus. Also, she once said that
:sabine: I'm literally an incarnation of illicit sex

And This is off topic, but thanks to comic #650 and #664, Vaarsivaus has incurred approximately 27 minutes of soul-bound time. Panel 6.

[Blackjackg]

This is not a particularly surprising revelation, I'm afraid. Cold Iron it is.

EDIT: Although, now that I think of it, there might be devil succubi in the Giant's multiverse too. Just to keep the mystery alive.

[Kish]

Yes, she is a succubus and thus a demon vulnerable to cold iron. Her alignment, on the other hand, is still up for grabs.

[Logalmier]

I think we all knew Sabine was a demon a looooong time ago.

I also think that The Giant said she was a succubus in War & XP, but I'm not sure.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yes, she is a succubus and thus a demon vulnerable to cold iron. Her alignment, on the other hand, is still up for grabs.

Why is her alignment still debated? Sure, Nale is Lawful Evil, but nothing prevents him from dating a Chaotic Evil succubus. Now it is known that Sabine has three bosses she reports to, yet reports directly to Lee. Nothing prevents her from working as a Freelancer. There is (apparantly) no Blood War going on, so anybody can work for anybody else, as long as they promote the goals of Evil.

[Ceryan]

Without doing any formal research, I just assumed she was a succubus ever since she said that statement about illicit sex.

[Optimystik]

I'm 90% sure she's CE. She does get the hots for the lawful types (Nale, Roy, Miko) but that makes me even more sure that she's Chaotic. She also works for LEe in the IFCC, the organization that encourages fiends to cooperate outside their alignment.

[NerfTW]

Succubus. In #637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) the archfiends say, "-A succubus who has been working under Director Lee." Who else could they be referring to? So yeah, I think she's a succubus. Also, she once said that
:sabine: I'm literally an incarnation of illicit sex

And This is off topic, but thanks to comic #650 and #664, Vaarsivaus has incurred approximately 27 minutes of soul-bound time. Panel 6.


You're right about Sabine. This does seem to prove she's lawful evil.

On the other hand, it can't possibly be 27 minutes. That battle took no more than a minute, two max. We can't count the invisibility or phylactery incident, or the time taken to carry V down to Durkon.

[Blackjackg]

There is (apparantly) no Blood War going on,

There is too. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html) The IFCC is a radical hippie group, not a representative of the overarching fiendish administration.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Without doing any formal research, I just assumed she was a succubus ever since she said that statement about illicit sex.

There is a devil equivalent to the succubus (the erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes)), so that by itself wouldn't say whether she's a demon or a devil.

[Optimystik]

There is a devil equivalent to the succubus (the erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes)), so that by itself wouldn't say whether she's a demon or a devil.

First, Erinyes love battle (they wouldn't say "screw this!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) after being wounded once); second, they have feathered wings like angels, not bat wings like Sabine.

[Random832]

You're right about Sabine. This does seem to prove she's lawful evil.

How? We don't even know Lee is LE, let alone that she would have to be to work for him.


First, Erinyes love battle (they wouldn't say "screw this!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) after being wounded once); second, they have feathered wings like angels, not bat wings like Sabine.
Third, they're not vulnerable to silver.

[NovaSeaker]

Actually the erinyes is an incarnation of fury. As per the Fiendish Codex II, though, some erinyeses (erinyesii, erinyii?) can be promoted to a new form of devil called a Pleasure Devil, usually as the behest of Glasya.

Also, Lee is most likely Lawful Evil due to the joke.

Directors LEe, NEro, and CEdrik? C'mon.

[Optimystik]

Also, Lee is most likely Lawful Evil due to the joke.

I agree that Lee is LE, but that doesn't make Sabine LE also. As I said before, the IFCC's nature actually makes it more likely that he'd work with CE underlings, not less. Therefore I think Sabine is CE.



Third, they're not vulnerable to silver.

That's the joke; we don't know which arrow hurt her. Everytime she's been hit by a metal that bypasses her DR, she's been hit by them both. (Or in the case of Roy's starmetal sword, neither.)

[SadisticFishing]

I thought we had proof that one of the Dirctors' names did not match their alignment?

Anyways, Succubus, for so many obvious reasons. ERGO, Chaotic Evil. She also acts very CE.

[Random832]

I still say the names are a red herring. But even if Lee is LE, this doesn't prove Sabine is.


That's the joke; we don't know which arrow hurt her. Everytime she's been hit by a metal that bypasses her DR, she's been hit by them both. (Or in the case of Roy's starmetal sword, neither.)

Right, but my point was, Erinyes aren't vulnerable to ANY metal, only to good-aligned weapons.

As for Roy's sword, it's a +5 edit: greatsword, so it could have just done enough damage to beat the 10 DR. Or maybe the green glow is good-aligned, but I'd think the smith would have mentioned that.

edit: I looked up how plusses work

She does mention the starmetal specifically, which could mean she's vulnerable to starmetal, or it could just be because that's why it's +5, and 2d6 without an enhancement bonus would be unlikely to beat the DR.

[Optimystik]

Right, but my point was, Erinyes aren't vulnerable to ANY metal, only to good-aligned weapons.

Ah! I see your point now.


As for Roy's sword, it's a +5 longsword - I don't know how plusses work, but the smith did say "a corresponding enhancement damage" before Roy told him to use gamerspeak. So it could have just done enough damage to beat the 10 DR. Or maybe the green glow is good-aligned, but I'd think he would have mentioned that.

The first option is the most likely - Roy just did a crapton of damage with that swing, so even after Sabine's DR it still hurt.

[Porthos]

Minor side point, but what the hey...

Lee is not LE, if we take into account that the Orange Fiend went to Devil School (thus signfiying that he is a Devil himself) while the Yellow Fiend is already named Lee.

Yeah, it could just be a case of Interchangeable Name syndrome. It could also be a case of the Orange Fiend being a Demon/Daemon at a Devil School (or at least being friends with their team mascots :smallwink:). But since there is a Blood War going on (no matter how silly the IFCC thinks it is), I would tend to discount that theory.

So either the LE, CE, NE names were a deliberate red herring, or as SPoD thinks might be possible, they all have interchangeable names, with the Giant not particuallrly caring which name/trait he gives which fiend at any given time.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

First, Erinyes love battle (they wouldn't say "screw this!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) after being wounded once); second, they have feathered wings like angels, not bat wings like Sabine.

My point was simply that "tempting fiend = succubus" isn't accurate, because by itself the temptress angle could make it either a demon or devil. The rest of the information, of course, does point to her being a succubus.

(And she's a known shapechanger, so she could easily be using an item or ability to appear with bat wings to confuse the matter, relying on the knowledge that only succubi can naturally shapeshift. Heck, she could be a half-fiend doppleganger for all that bat wings matter.)


Actually the erinyes is an incarnation of fury. As per the Fiendish Codex II, though, some erinyeses (erinyesii, erinyii?) can be promoted to a new form of devil called a Pleasure Devil, usually as the behest of Glasya.

As per the SRD, erinyes "appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men" and "use charm monster to distract or disorganize their opponents" where succubi "prefer to turn foes against one another." Both do tempting to some degree (though I admit the resemblance was much stronger in prior editions, so succubi is a more likely choice).

Again, I'm not disputing that Sabine is a succubus, just pointing out that you need to take all the information into account.

[hamishspence]

The description in the book also says feathered wings.

Only one described female devil looks like Sabine- tail, horns, skin, wings. Glasya.

[hamishspence]

since they said they would each provide "a soul bound to each of our respective planar domains" that strongly implies each fiend comes from the plane that the soul provided is bound to.

So, Yellow (Lee) comes from the plane Jepthon was condemned to after death, and so on.

Given the alignments (Ganonron seems strongly lawful, Jepthon Chaotic) that makes Lee a demon.

[Zevox]

My point was simply that "tempting fiend = succubus" isn't accurate, because by itself the temptress angle could make it either a demon or devil.
Only if you bring in non-core Devils, specifically the Brachina/Pleasure Devil. Erinyes are not temptresses. They're primarily scouts in the Blood War and servants to more powerful Devils. They aren't above using their good looks to their advantage when it's convenient, but it isn't their primary purpose. Whereas for Sabine, it is. "Literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex" and all that.

Zevox

[FeAnPi]

However, in the OotSverse is possible that CE souls are punished in the LE plane, and LE ones in the CE afterlife.

I'm not saying that it is, just that it is possible.

[Snake-Aes]

You guys creep me out.

1: Each fiend in the IFCC represents one of the three main types, but since their motto is to get past those differences, nothing says a demon can't order a devil around.
2: Sabine has succubus powers, and claims to be the incarnation of illicit sex. If that doesn't make her a succubus, it makes her another type of fiend that can do everything a succubus does.
3: Sabine has already been shown working with the IFCC, and they specifically mentioned they knew about V from a Succubus. How many succubi has V met? You can't even say he summoned them for fun because he barred conjuration.

Anything other than "Sabine is a succubus working for Director Lee" seems just too unnecessarily complicated.

[MReav]

Can someone explain the "Sabine acts Lawful" bit to me? She never really struck me as acting Lawful. And don't give me that scene where she immediately reports to her superiors. She's getting a rather impressive finder's fee.

[Optimystik]

Can someone explain the "Sabine acts Lawful" bit to me? She never really struck me as acting Lawful. And don't give me that scene where she immediately reports to her superiors. She's getting a rather impressive finder's fee.

Who said that? I said she has a thing for Lawfuls, not that she was one...

[Finwe]

She does mention the starmetal specifically, which could mean she's vulnerable to starmetal, or it could just be because that's why it's +5, and 2d6 without an enhancement bonus would be unlikely to beat the DR.

It's also possible that Starmetal 'counts' as silver (or cold iron) for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. I'm pretty sure there are other materials in various books that work the same way: "Like <special metal>, but better!"

[slayerx]

Right, but my point was, Erinyes aren't vulnerable to ANY metal, only to good-aligned weapons.

Remember, the giant does not follow the rules strictly...
As he says it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), in the universe of OotS, ALL demons are vulnerable to cold iron, and ALL devils are vulnerable to silver

As such, we can even go as far to say that the difference between a Succubus and an Erinyes, can be more subtle... including, bat wings instead of feathered wings

[Snake-Aes]

It's also possible that Starmetal 'counts' as silver (or cold iron) for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. I'm pretty sure there are other materials in various books that work the same way: "Like <special metal>, but better!"

The starmetal referred to in Complete Arcane has +1d6 damage against outsiders.

[Random832]

Remember, the giant does not follow the rules strictly...
As he says it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), in the universe of OotS, ALL demons are vulnerable to cold iron, and ALL devils are vulnerable to silver

As such, we can even go as far to say that the difference between a Succubus and an Erinyes, can be more subtle... including, bat wings instead of feathered wings

Or Haley failed a knowledge check - she couldn't even positively identify Sabine's subtype, let alone consider obscure details about anything more specific.

You can't take _everything_ that comes out of any character's mouth as an absolute statement about the OOTS world.


The starmetal referred to in Complete Arcane has +1d6 damage against outsiders.

Now I feel bad for not posting my speculation that outsiders were vulnerable to it (though my thought was more like 'overcomes all DR for outsiders')

[MReav]

Who said that? I said she has a thing for Lawfuls, not that she was one...

NerfTW said that, and hasn't been the only one.

[slayerx]

Or Haley failed a knowledge check - she couldn't even positively identify Sabine's subtype, let alone consider obscure details about anything more specific.

You can't take _everything_ that comes out of any character's mouth as an absolute statement about the OOTS world.


Devil's hate silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)
and i do think Paladins know a thing or two about Devils
(i should have remembered that comic sooner)

[Random832]

Devil's hate silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)
and i do think Paladins know a thing or two about Devils
(i should have remembered that comic sooner)

Right - and that is just as true in general in core D&D as it is in OOTS - Erinyes are an exception - one that Haley may not have enough knowledge to think of. We already saw her fail what should have been an easier check: identifying which subtype Sabine was. Hinjo had no need to mention this exception, since the devil they were fighting was clearly a Pit Fiend.

[Optimystik]

Devil's hate silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)
and i do think Paladins know a thing or two about Devils
(i should have remembered that comic sooner)

Pit Fiends have DR/good and silver, Erinyes only have DR/good.

[Sholos]

However, in the OotSverse is possible that CE souls are punished in the LE plane, and LE ones in the CE afterlife.

I'm not saying that it is, just that it is possible.

Citation needed. It obviously doesn't work that way for the Good planes, so why should it work that way in the Evil planes?

[Tenebrais]

There is too. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html) The IFCC is a radical hippie group, not a representative of the overarching fiendish administration.

Sorry, I still can't get over the idea of hippy fiends.

[Haarkla]

Can someone explain the "Sabine acts Lawful" bit to me? She never really struck me as acting Lawful. And don't give me that scene where she immediately reports to her superiors. She's getting a rather impressive finder's fee.

She is generally subservient and loyal to Nale.

She gets annoyed when Nale attempts to sleep with/kill Haley.

She seems the most rational of the core Linear Guild.

She appears to work well in organisations.

[SadisticFishing]

She is generally subservient and loyal to Nale.

She gets annoyed when Nale attempts to sleep with/kill Haley.

She seems the most rational of the core Linear Guild.

She appears to work well in organisations.

None of that actually shows that she is Lawful, at all.

By the way, she's not annoyed that he wants to sleep with her, she's annoyed that he's going to KILL her without her. Pay attention.

[David Argall]

As for Roy's sword, it's a +5 edit: greatsword, so it could have just done enough damage to beat the 10 DR.
Could have??? Sabine goes down in 1 solid hit even if we give her the full DR. We have to make her an advanced Succubus [not unreasonable since her heels have been round for thousands of years.] to give her a prayer of lasting a round.

[Snake-Aes]

She is generally subservient and loyal to Nale.

She gets annoyed when Nale attempts to sleep with/kill Haley.

She seems the most rational of the core Linear Guild.

She appears to work well in organisations.

Because chaotic people totally can't like other people. Of course. Yeah.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Could have??? Sabine goes down in 1 solid hit even if we give her the full DR. We have to make her an advanced Succubus [not unreasonable since her heels have been round for thousands of years.] to give her a prayer of lasting a round.

Well, a +5 greatsword does a max of 17+Str damage. Average succubi have 33 HP, and named NPCs often have above-average HP, so it's entirely possible for her to survive several max-damage hits from it with the DR taken into account.

[MReav]

She is generally subservient and loyal to Nale.

So's Elan to Roy. Chaotic people can have personal loyalties.


She gets annoyed when Nale attempts to sleep with/kill Haley.

A: Sabine called dibs. B: That kind of shows she's selfish, something that's not inherently Lawful in nature.


She seems the most rational of the core Linear Guild.

Proves she's got a higher wisdom than the others.


She appears to work well in organisations.

I think that's a bit of an overstatement. She just doesn't try to actively undermine them.

[Kallt Tag]

This is not a particularly surprising revelation, I'm afraid. Cold Iron it is.

In comic 255, Nale's plan notes that Sabine's scissors are neither cold iron nor silver. So, in 62, both of Haley's arrows were good, yes?

[Scarlet Knight]

I believe the term you are all looking for is: "a skank" :smallwink:

[Elfin]

According to the IFCC, she's a succubus

[Random832]

In comic 255, Nale's plan notes that Sabine's scissors are neither cold iron nor silver. So, in 62, both of Haley's arrows were good, yes?

It can't be both - Nale obviously doesn't know, either.

[Morquard]

Well, if you look at Belkar, who's CE. He's also more or less somewhat loyal to the Order. However he's mainly loyal because they're the best means to his ends, namely killing alot of people/goblins.

Sabine strikes me as someone who's loyal to Nate for different reasons. Either because she's in love with him, or because she got ordered so by Lee. But I guess taking orders and actually following them isn't really a chaotic trait either.
Love I guess however doesn't indicate one way or another I guess.

Chaotic in CE and CG seem to mean different things though. CG characters seem mostly selfish but still go out of their way to avoid clearly evil acts etc. Haley is an example (even though I guess she's bordering on CN in some aspects).
CE on the other hand seems to be the "Lets destroy the universe just to see if we can". Thats not exactly selfish. I mean it destroys you too. NE ("Lets kill all that ever slighted us") seems more the "selfish evil".

Dunno, thats how I see it, maybe i'm wrong there.

Also consider Sabine's comment about how Roy's heart would give her and Nale another 9 month of evil love. I dunno, might be some sort of biological requirement to sarifice people, like breathing, and not any indication of following rules etc.

However theres one strong argument for LE:
Nale is a sucker for the evil opposite thing.
- Nale is LE, Elan is CG
- Thog is CE, Roy is LG
- Hylgia was supposedly CE as well, Durkon is LG
- Drztefsdfaafdsa (that drow guy) was... uh... something... which fits V perfectly
- Yikyik obviously wasn't LG, but I guess its ahrd finding a evil opposite to a CE halfling. Being a kobold was obviously enough here for Nale ;)

Leaves Haley who's CG and Sabine...


But well, after this wall of text: I still have no clue what alignment she is. Well she's evil, at least we can agree on that, right? :D