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View Full Version : Warlocks: Are they incredibly broken, and can they be fixed?



Jergmo
2009-06-25, 11:23 AM
They just seem...ridiculous to me. Am I wrong? If I'm right, can they be made less overpowered?

AmberVael
2009-06-25, 11:25 AM
They just seem...ridiculous to me. Am I wrong?
Yes.
That's really all there is to it.

It looks nice to have long lasting powers and infinite uses, but the fact is that the lack of potency and variety more than makes up for it. Warlocks are far from overpowered.

Frog Dragon
2009-06-25, 11:25 AM
Actually, they aren't broken at all. Significantly under the standard casters and such. Sure they have every power of theirs at will, but they are severely limited in what they get and the effects never hit those of really high spell levels. They simply don't have that much power or versatility to give even if they can do their thing indefinitely.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-25, 11:26 AM
This is a common perception shared by many who first see the "at-will" abilities. That asid, the Warlock is actually a very nicely balanced class, falling (IMHO) somewhere approximately around the Rogue, depending on the builds.

It's at-wills aren't nearly as potent as you would expect, although at around level 5-7 the Warlock really seems to shine. Don't worry to much though...it's a good class, but not overpowered by any means, especially once other classes break out the big guns.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-25, 11:32 AM
The best way to fix the warlock is by giving him one invocation at each level, instead of every other level. That brings him more on par with the rogue, bard, and barbarian (and still behind the primary casters, of course).

Surprising answer, no?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-25, 11:36 AM
A warlock, a monk and a favored soul walk into a bar. The bartender goes "You're kind gets served."

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-06-25, 11:38 AM
It also depends on what you do with it. I am currently working a Gnome Warlock (Pathfinder / Unearthed Arcana rules, Spelljammer universe, looooooong story [it had something to do with a previous character of mine destroying the Faerun sphere])

Garet Yasur - CN Male Gnome Warlock 5 / Corrupted Spirit 10 (Modified from 'Enlightened Spirit') / Hellfire Warlock 3 The levels are kinda sprinkled in here and there...

He is making heavy use of Use Magic Device, Craft (trapmaking), Empower (Sp) and Quicken (Sp) for the blasts. He is also infusing his eldritch hellfire blast into "traps" that are being made. He is surprisingly stealthy.

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are your friends as a Warlock. You won't have a ton of HP, so make good use of Eldritch Spear (250' range with blast) and if they get too close, Eldritch Glaive. Fell Flight gives you a flying speed, with which you can take Flyby Attack or Shot on the Run if you can squeeze it in.


----------------
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Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-06-25, 11:40 AM
The best way to fix the warlock is by giving him one invocation at each level, instead of every other level. That brings him more on par with the rogue, bard, and barbarian (and still behind the primary casters, of course).

Surprising answer, no?

I like that idea, very much. Also may allow the invocation levels (Least, lesser, etc.) progress faster.

lsfreak
2009-06-25, 11:43 AM
Less utility than any primary caster (especially other arcane casters). Significantly less damage output than an ubercharger, a ToB character, or even a well-built rogue. They can fill multiple roles in the party - party face, archer, arcanist, itemcrafter - but can't fill any of those but maybe itemcrafter (when artificer is banned) as well as another character.

So no, they're not broken. If anything, they're a little on the weak side as-is, fit well for dipping 1 or 4 levels but not really all that great all the way through. I'd up the number of invocations they know and homebrew some more interesting invocations in order to make them a bit more powerful.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-25, 03:48 PM
So no, they're not broken. If anything, they're a little on the weak side as-is, fit well for dipping 1 or 4 levels but not really all that great all the way through. I'd up the number of invocations they know and homebrew some more interesting invocations in order to make them a bit more powerful.I wouldn't say that. They're about as multiclass-friendly as the average caster(read:not at all), but they don't have nearly as many good PrCs. There's a couple of the dual-progression Warlock ones that are decent, but most of the time you either go Warlock 1(1 Least Invoc and EB 1d6) or Warlock 20.

Even Hellfire Warlocks, the best damage output builds for the class, only deal 14d6(49) per hit, and they burn a point of Con doing so(though there are mitigators for that). Compare to a straight Rogue, who deals 10d6+20+Wep+Wep enhancement+Str(70, easily).

Tengu_temp
2009-06-25, 03:53 PM
A warlock, a monk and a favored soul walk into a bar. The bartender goes "You're kind gets served."

I can't believe there are people who consider favored souls to be on the same level of power (or lack thereof) as monks and warlocks. They're full casters!

As for warlocks, compare a typical warlock to a typical archer of the same level. The archer will deal much more damage, and we all know how unoptimized archers are when it comes to doing damage beyond the lowest levels.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-25, 04:01 PM
There are ways to optimize Warlock for damage, such as going Warlock 9/ Hellfire Warlock 2/ Legacy Champion 9 to deal 28d6 Eldritch Blasts. That's no better than a single-classed Warlock for half the build and only gets really powerful in high-level play when other characters get 7th-9th level spells. Luckily, Warlocks get UMD and can even take ten on it, so they can at least pretend to be as powerful as a true spellcaster though it can get expensive. I've found that the best use for Warlock is to spam debuffs every round, such as Blinding Eldritch Chain, and focus on boosting your DCs such as with Ability Focus and Fey Power. Glaivelocks are also quite powerful as melee damage dealers, but they don't get the armor proficiencies of other melee classes or the defensive spells of a gish.

SilverClawShift
2009-06-25, 04:07 PM
I'm playing a warlock in my current campaign. I've taken "Extra Invocation" at every possible level, I have bracers that give me extra invocations, and my eldritch blast is stronger than a normal warlock of my level.

I STILL find myself wishing I had more versatility at my disposal, and our multi-class gish who's not optimized at all can make the damage my blast deals look like I'm lobbing softballs at the enemy.

It's a fun class, and it's not a pushover, but it's not really all that remarkable in terms of sheer power.

Gnaeus
2009-06-25, 04:09 PM
In the case of the warlock, here's how you check...

Make a level x warlock. Then make a level x fighter with archery feats. Spend about 1/2 the fighters Wealth by level on his bow and ammo. Pick a couple of monsters of that challenge rating, look at their defenses (AC, touch AC, SR and DR). See how many rounds of uninterrupted shooting it takes to kill them. Notice how the archer is usually faster. Warlock has more utility than the archer, but archer has better hp... Yes, Warlock will be comparatively better against monsters with low touch AC, high AC, no SR and damage resistance, and the opposite for the archer.

So, the warlock takes up the same party role as the archer. Not quite as well, but with marginally better utility.

Now do the same thing with a level x specialist wizard where x is greater than 5 or 6. This can be a blaster wizard, or one with lots of SoDs, either way. Now divide the wizard's spells per level by 4 (because he has to face 4 challenges per day.) Let the wizard cast all his buffs with durations longer than 1 hour, and repeat challenge above. Pick good spells for the wizard, which target the monsters vulnerabilities, because the wizard picked his spells for that day with some idea of where he is, and chooses the best of his spells memorized for each combat. Again, the wizard will usually be faster. The wizard is comparatively worse on days with more than 4 encounters, better on days with 1-3. Most campaigns I have seen are more likely to have less than 4 encounters per day than more. The wizard has more utility than the warlock, because he can pick his spells to the needs of the day.

So the warlock takes up the same party role as the blaster wizard. Not quite as well, with worse utility.

So...Broken?

BRC
2009-06-25, 04:11 PM
It goes like this
Warlock: HA, I can cast Baleful Polymorph at-will!
Wizard: Sorry, what was that, I was too busy having been able to do things that are far more awesome for the last four levels.

Oslecamo
2009-06-25, 04:13 PM
As for warlocks, compare a typical warlock to a typical archer of the same level. The archer will deal much more damage, and we all know how unoptimized archers are when it comes to doing damage beyond the lowest levels.

Yes, but the warlock can become invisible, or destroy the archer's bow, or climb the cave's walls to remain out of the melees range, or summon tentacles from the ground to literally rape the archer, etc, etc

Plus, item crafting. Warlocks can craft ANY item. There's all the versatility you may ever want. This, combined with the take 10 in UMD checks, makes them more than able to hold their own weight in the party, unless you're playing with an incantrix of the 7 veils, planar sheperd of dreams and Mr roboto.

I don't understand why all the warlock hate. Sure they're not fullcasters, but with a little optimization and creativity fullcasters are the only thing wich will actually be above them.

Also to those who claim that archers in D&D are the suckorz, if you know what you're doing they can actually slaughter the best melee

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-25, 04:20 PM
I can't believe there are people who consider favored souls to be on the same level of power (or lack thereof) as monks and warlocks. They're full casters!
Rule of funny: you need three things to walk into a bar.

Besides, neither the sorcerer nor the flavored sould is in The Big 5 for a reason.

AslanCross
2009-06-25, 04:25 PM
Consider the following:
-A Warlock can do 3d6 damage to one target with his eldritch blast at Lv 5, all day long, from 60 ft away (longer if he has Eldritch Spear).
-A Wizard can do 5d6 damage to multiple targets with fireball at level 5, from 600 feet away, as many times as he can prepare it.

-At level 5, a Warlock has a grand total of 3 invocations, including blast shapes and eldritch essences, and it takes a feat to add an extra invocation.
-At level 5, a Wizard has 11 spells above Lv 0 plus all the Lv 0 spells, not including anything he may have learned from scrolls. It just takes him gold and some time to learn spells.

Even if the Warlock can do all day long, the Wizard is still better at its most "suboptimal" strategy, which is blasting, and can do other things on the side that will ultimately be much more helpful to the party.

The Warlock is further hampered by his rather pathetic skill point gain (since he's not intended to have high Int like the Wizard).

That said, I love the Warlock. He can really shine with UMD and wands, and is really quite flavorful.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-25, 04:26 PM
There are ways to optimize Warlock for damage, such as going Warlock 9/ Hellfire Warlock 2/ Legacy Champion 9 to deal 28d6 Eldritch Blasts.
It is highly dubious that Legacy Champion works that way. Just FYI.


At any rate, just because a well-played wizard is more powerful doesn't make the warlock a bad class. They're also very easy to play, unlike wizards.

lsfreak
2009-06-25, 04:34 PM
-snip-

Yes, you can craft ANY item. That's assuming you take the appropriate craft feats, have the downtime, and don't have an artificer doing essentially the same thing for even cheaper and not taking up any party time to do it. It's a strong point in certain campaign types, not all-around.

Yes, warlocks can do other things than blast. But they're not all that outstanding at it. It's not warlock hate, it's just a fact that they're less versatile than another caster. They're a pretty well-built class with a very good mechanic that could use a little help in the face of ToB and full casters (unless maybe if you go Legacy Champion).

Also, Sstoopidtallkid: I was referring to 1-level dips as a party face for the +6 to social skills or a 4-level dip for take-10 on UMD combined with things like constant see invisibility, the +6 to social skills, and a bonus on all X saves. It's a fairly decent dip for a skillmonkey/party-face character. The dual-progression warlock/caster classes in Complete Mage are pretty good too.

GreyMantle
2009-06-25, 04:37 PM
Warlocks can be really fun to play, but they tend to be pretty unimpressive mechanically.

The solution I use is at http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40208&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0. (ignore frank's version as it was never finished, but toward the end of the page cielingcat made a neat warlock variant).

The spherelock uses the casting system of spheres from the Tome of Fiends, which actually gives warlocks level appropriate abilities. I still let warlocks learn a number of invocations equal to their Charisma modifier, because spamming the shatter invocation is really really fun.

If you want to use the WotC version, having EB equal to warlock level helps a bit.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-25, 04:39 PM
I vastly prefer the Warlock to the Wizard in nearly any setting, simply because they aren't godlike from start to finish.

They are strong, yes, and they have staying power. These are good traits to have in a base class. But they can't even begin to spit at a Batman Wizard, or typical CoDzilla, or even an Artificer or Archivist.

One cheezy trick to do is to dip two levels of Chameleon for the shifting feat. This plus the level 12 Warlock ability means they can make literally any non-artifact item in the game with trivial effort (although it still takes an expenditure of xp and gold).

Hellfire Warlock is... meh. Rawr, it can do damage, but not nearly as much as even a standard Charger build (Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Pounce). Even with Glaive, it doesn't begin to compare.


Warlocks can be really fun to play, but they tend to be pretty unimpressive mechanically.

The solution I use is at http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40208&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0. (ignore frank's version as it was never finished, but toward the end of the page cielingcat made a neat warlock variant).

The spherelock uses the casting system of spheres from the Tome of Fiends, which actually gives warlocks level appropriate abilities. I still let warlocks learn a number of invocations equal to their Charisma modifier, because spamming the shatter invocation is really really fun.

If you want to use the WotC version, having EB equal to warlock level helps a bit.

While an interesting concept, I don't approve of getting an entirely new 'sphere' every level. In fact, I'm not sure if 12 spheres (new sphere every time a current Lock gets a new invocation) is balanced. That's a LOT of stuff to do, making them exceedingly flexible, and some of those powers on those lists are pretty broken.

I've tried to build some base classes to replace the druid/cleric/wixard/sorcerer/bard based on the invocation system. Cleric and Wizard have one invocation per level, but 1/2 BAB. Druid and Bard have standard lock invocation advancement at 3/4 BAB. None of them get broken stuff like Divine Power.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-25, 04:48 PM
Also, Sstoopidtallkid: I was referring to 1-level dips as a party face for the +6 to social skills or a 4-level dip for take-10 on UMD combined with things like constant see invisibility, the +6 to social skills, and a bonus on all X saves. It's a fairly decent dip for a skillmonkey/party-face character. The dual-progression warlock/caster classes in Complete Mage are pretty good too.I know, I just can't see dipping more than one level of it. The Least Invocations are good, but you don't gain enough of them IMHO to justify losing other class features for mor than one level. I could understand Warlock 1, or Warlock 20, but not Warlock 4.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-25, 05:03 PM
Wait, Warlock 6 grants all day Flight. That is pretty Nifty.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-25, 05:11 PM
Wait, Warlock 6 grants all day Flight. That is pretty Nifty.

Yeah, infinite flight and invisibility are the most fun aspects of warlocks - but, while they are fun, they don't actually make them very powerful.

scsimodem
2009-06-25, 05:26 PM
I've actually played a default, 3.5 warlock from 1 to 20, and, just like any other class, you just have to play to the strengths. Warlocks are a one trick pony, so make sure it's a damn good trick and take advantage of the fact that you can switch out invocations when you level (get rid of one that's proven useless). When I got to high levels, we spent most of our time in the underdark, so I dropped eldritch spear, since my warlock darkvision only went out to 60 ft. However, I could defeat even magical darkness to 30 ft. with another invocation, so I took the one that creates a globe of magical darkness. Then, even on the surface, I was awesome. There's also the acid one that negates SR and only pays attention to acid resistance.

Well, I seem to be rambling a bit, but here's the short of it: When all you've got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, so when you get one of your precious few invocations, take one that's as flexible as possible, then try to pigeonhole every situation into be a 'nail.'

Also, get scribe scroll and start making all kinds of neat crap to use when you just can't solve the problem with your hammer.

penbed400
2009-06-25, 05:39 PM
coolest build I've seen so far with a warlock was an elf warlock 10/dashing swordsman 10. Actually works out in an amazing and witty way. So far our group has had lots of fun with it. Especially since he got this familiar, I don't remember how he got it. Maybe he dipped a class or something since I don't see familiar as a Warlock's class set. But its a pig, he named him piggay and is commonly used in his puns in order to get the bonus to damage for Dashing Swordsman. It's also a large round of facepalms and deep sighs whenever piggay gets mentioned at the table as he usually spins off going:

"PIGGAY! Destroy them, we shall certainly.....fry their bacon hmmmmmm....*wheeze with each breath*"

Gnaeus
2009-06-25, 05:40 PM
Yes, but the warlock can become invisible, or destroy the archer's bow, or climb the cave's walls to remain out of the melees range, or summon tentacles from the ground to literally rape the archer, etc, etc

Plus, item crafting. Warlocks can craft ANY item. There's all the versatility you may ever want. This, combined with the take 10 in UMD checks, makes them more than able to hold their own weight in the party, unless you're playing with an incantrix of the 7 veils, planar sheperd of dreams and Mr roboto.

I don't understand why all the warlock hate. Sure they're not fullcasters, but with a little optimization and creativity fullcasters are the only thing wich will actually be above them.

Also to those who claim that archers in D&D are the suckorz, if you know what you're doing they can actually slaughter the best melee

I don't think anyone is hating on the warlock. We are:
1. pointing out that it is not overpowered in normal campaigns.
2. Not as good at its primary role (standing in the back and shooting things) as comparable, more common classes. Thats why we are comparing it to wizard and archer. If the poster had mentioned a glaivelock, I would have compared it to classes that outperform it in the melee damage role, like Ubercharger or TWF rogue.

Anyone interested in playing a warlock should know these things. Can a warlock contribute to a party...Absolutely. Heck, can an archer contribute to a party...Yes. But you need to know what you are getting into before you play those builds.

And it isn't about whether the warlock can beat an archer in a fight... That is usually irrelevant. More important is the level of hurt that they can put on commonly encountered monsters, and that comparison goes to the archer most of the time.

AmberVael
2009-06-25, 05:45 PM
I don't understand why all the warlock hate. Sure they're not fullcasters, but with a little optimization and creativity fullcasters are the only thing which will actually be above them.

I don't think anyone is hating on them- on the contrary, I believe there is a very large portion of people who enjoy the class, but simply recognize that it is most certainly not overpowered.
Can it be good? Yeah.
Fun? Hell yeah.
Is it a full caster? ...no. Not at all.

SoD
2009-06-25, 06:02 PM
Now do the same thing with a level x specialist wizard where x is greater than 5 or 6. This can be a blaster wizard, or one with lots of SoDs, either way. Now divide the wizard's spells per level by 4 (because he has to face 4 challenges per day.) Let the wizard cast all his buffs with durations longer than 1 hour, and repeat challenge above. Pick good spells for the wizard, which target the monsters vulnerabilities, because the wizard picked his spells for that day with some idea of where he is, and chooses the best of his spells memorized for each combat. Again, the wizard will usually be faster. The wizard is comparatively worse on days with more than 4 encounters, better on days with 1-3. Most campaigns I have seen are more likely to have less than 4 encounters per day than more. The wizard has more utility than the warlock, because he can pick his spells to the needs of the day.

...you've just given me the best mental image ever.


Also on the 'nail' idea; +11 from me. I'm DMing a campaign where one of the players is a CN Teifling Warlock (with 18 cha ). She's recently gotten a bunch of dull grey ion stones. Her solution? Throw one of them at an opponent, and it flies around the opponents head. As the opponent thinks [I]WTF dude? she speaks a single sylable of the Dark Speech(TM) and it shatters. As that opponent is was considered 'holding or wearing' the ion stone, they need to make a fortitude save or be dazed and deafened. Or, alternatively, she's in a situation where she needs to distract information from someone. She holds up a glass, throws it in the air, and shatters it, sending fragments of glass everywhere. Then, she picks up another glass, and wedges it in the 'torturee's moth for a few seconds. Remove it, and see if he'll talk. If not, shove it back in, and shatter it. Get party cleric to CMW. If the pain from that one didn't work, shove another glass in, uh, another orifice.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-25, 06:30 PM
Then, she picks up another glass, and wedges it in the 'torturee's moth for a few seconds.

"Well, druid, if you won't tell us what we want to know, I suppose we'll have to see if your animal companion is as resilient as you are...."

Draz74
2009-06-25, 06:45 PM
One cheezy trick to do is to dip two levels of Chameleon for the shifting feat. This plus the level 12 Warlock ability means they can make literally any non-artifact item in the game with trivial effort (although it still takes an expenditure of xp and gold).

There's a fair number of items that require two item crafting feats, though. Generally one of the two is Craft Wondrous Item, so a Warlock using this trick should get that feat in the normal way, and use the "floating feat" to cover everything else.

Ganurath
2009-06-25, 06:46 PM
You can have your finely-crafted watch - Give me a sledgehammer to the face any day.

The Warlock isn't overpowered in the same sense full casters are. They're overpowered in that they're expected to fight dirty, and their limited resources encourage creative thinking. Remember, nothing says Baleful Utterance won't work on body piercings! Lets see those full casters use somatic components after their rings have been shattered... Along with whatever finger was wearing it.

GreyMantle
2009-06-25, 06:58 PM
While an interesting concept, I don't approve of getting an entirely new 'sphere' every level. In fact, I'm not sure if 12 spheres (new sphere every time a current Lock gets a new invocation) is balanced. That's a LOT of stuff to do, making them exceedingly flexible, and some of those powers on those lists are pretty broken.

In comparison to the spellcasting power and versatility of a cleric, wizard, or druid (or even something like a beguiler), the spherelock isn't that bad. And I have to imagine that very few warlocks are going to choose 6 different spheres (the final version of that class only gets the spheres every 3 levels). Off-hand, the only spheres that range on broken are Bubbles (for time stop) and Heresy (for gate and miracle). Those are only questionable if you have unlimited access (which requires 3 levels where the lock just buffs their current sphere). In one of the threads (either the Tome of Fiends or the WotC critique of the Spherelock), either K or Cielingcat suggested saying that, even with unlimited access, you can only use your highest-level spell-like 5 times per day.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-25, 07:14 PM
Lets see those full casters use somatic components after their rings have been shattered... Along with whatever finger was wearing it.
Something does infact say BU won't work on rings; the part where Shatter cannot affect magic items.

Ganurath
2009-06-25, 07:19 PM
Something does infact say BU won't work on rings; the part where Shatter cannot affect magic items.They don't need to be magic rings, I was just thinking of something that a mage would have on hand that explodes into shrapnel. In the case of clerics, you can target the free bracers that come with their nonlight armor.

And don't try to tell me that an arcanist wouldn't want to flaunt their superiority.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-25, 07:44 PM
They don't need to be magic rings, I was just thinking of something that a mage would have on hand that explodes into shrapnel. In the case of clerics, you can target the free bracers that come with their nonlight armor.
Good idea, let's target the will saves of the two classes with the best will save progression...


And don't try to tell me that an arcanist wouldn't want to flaunt their superiority.
With *magic* items. *Magic* items.

Jergmo
2009-06-25, 11:51 PM
Okay, well, here's my main problem. That 250 foot spell of doom -- at will. Which is a touch spell. And they can fly. And go invisible. If the warlock wants to, it can make it so nobody can touch it and it can whittle away at them without an effort.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-25, 11:56 PM
Okay, well, here's my main problem. That 250 foot spell of doom -- at will. Which is a touch spell. And they can fly. And go invisible. If the warlock wants to, it can make it so nobody can touch it and it can whittle away at them without an effort.

At the level you get to do that (Greater Invisibility at will, high EB damage), everyone and their mother's brother has See Invisibility, True Seeing, Tremorsense, Lifesense, or something else to detect you with.

And 9d6 damage/round isn't that impressive. Even with Hellfire and a Greater Chausable of Fell Power, you're dealing 27d6 damage per round. That's 94.5 on average.

At level 20.

Any archer will do more. The wizard kills entire worlds. The cleric slaughters his way past the gates of hell to reach his favorite picnic spot. The druid founds new planes when he's bored.

You deal something under a hundred damage per round.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-25, 11:56 PM
Okay, well, here's my main problem. That 250 foot spell of doom -- at will. Which is a touch spell. And they can fly. And go invisible. If the warlock wants to, it can make it so nobody can touch it and it can whittle away at them without an effort.See invisibility. Also, Flight is achievable at the same level they get it. A Raptoran with a Longbow and a Ring of Invisibility gets the same things. Really, look at their Invocations Known progression. It hurts. I love the class, but you just don't get many options.

RTGoodman
2009-06-25, 11:57 PM
But that doesn't really work. It's a standard action to use invisibility, and it goes away whenever you attack. So, at MOST, you can turn invisible and fly around one round, fly a little and attack for a few d6s the next AND give away your position, and then spend the next round going invisible and flying a bit. And by that time, most competent enemies can ignore most of that or chase you down or kill you in one hit or whatever anyway.

EDIT: Oh, the ninjas.

sonofzeal
2009-06-26, 12:03 AM
Okay, well, here's my main problem. That 250 foot spell of doom -- at will. Which is a touch spell. And they can fly. And go invisible. If the warlock wants to, it can make it so nobody can touch it and it can whittle away at them without an effort.
Anyone can buy a Ring of Invisibility, and tones of characters can cast it for themselves. Heck, even a Barbarian can use a Potion of Invisibility. Fight is a bit more expensive, but entirely within budget for a lot of characters, and there's all sorts of long-duration flight spells that Wizards and whatnot can cast. And Warlocks only have d6 HD, light armor, and one good save. They'll go down reasonably fast to ranged weapons and spells. Yes, a mid-level Warlock can trounce a party of Orc Fighters who didn't pack ranged weapons, but so can a level 3 Wizard with Levitate and a sling.

In short, a Warlock does consistent but mediocre damage, has reasonable basic defenses for keeping himself alive but nothing out of the ordinary, and can keep on being average all day long. Yes, there's a brief window where they can gain reliable flight ahead of most other characters, but hey, every class needs its advantages.

lsfreak
2009-06-26, 12:31 AM
Okay, well, here's my main problem. That 250 foot spell of doom -- at will. Which is a touch spell. And they can fly. And go invisible. If the warlock wants to, it can make it so nobody can touch it and it can whittle away at them without an effort.

I think you're overestimating this "spell of doom." By level 10, a half-decent melee is doing 2-3 times the damage of a warlock per hit, and a semi-optimized tripper or TWF'er is should be dropping 2-4 hits per round. Sure, that's not a range of 250 feet, but how often are you in a situation to take advantage of that compared to how often a melee class is in... well, melee? Sure, it'll come up every once in a while, but not often enough to make the class unbalanced by any means.

On top of that, if you can fly your enemies can too (at least, they can if your DM is smart). If nothing else, they can see you or sense you (when you first get fly + invis, you can only attack once before being seen; at high levels everyone has true sight anywho). Then it's just a matter of dispelling you. No warlock can "whittle you down without an effort" unless the DM is throwing things at you without any regard for matching them to your strength.

Jergmo
2009-06-26, 12:38 AM
Alright...I'm still a little iffy on that, but for the most part, I'm convinced. Thank you for your input, everyone. :smallsmile:

ghost_warlock
2009-06-26, 12:38 AM
Warlock: "Hey, I can do 3d6 damage with a ranged touch at will!"
Wizard: "Big deal, I took a reserve feat that allows me to do the same thing."
Warlock: "Well, I have all these cool buffs that last all day."
Wizard: "I have Extend Spell."
Warlock: :smallfrown:

Jergmo
2009-06-26, 12:42 AM
Warlock: "Hey, I can do 3d6 damage with a ranged touch at will!"
Wizard: "Big deal, I took a reserve feat that allows me to do the same thing."
Warlock: "Well, I have all these cool buffs that last all day."
Wizard: "I have Extend Spell."
Warlock: :smallfrown:

Sorcerer: *Flexes high charisma* I may have a limited spell selection, but just look at me, ladies. :smallwink:
Warlock: *Flaunts high charisma and superior build to that of wizards and sorcerers, as well as literally devilish good looks*
Sorcerers and Wizards: :smallfrown:

And that was how Warlocks made up for their incredibly limited spellcasting.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-26, 12:43 AM
And that was how Warlocks made up for their incredibly limited spellcasting.

Well, that and UMD. :smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-26, 12:49 AM
Sorcerer: *Flexes high charisma* I may have a limited spell selection, but just look at me, ladies. :smallwink:

Pfft. Not since they printed Psychic Reformation.

Ganurath
2009-06-26, 01:13 AM
A Sorceror, a Wizard, and a Warlock all walk into the Tomb of Horrors. Guess who comes out alive.

Hint: It's exactly one of them.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-26, 01:14 AM
Sorcerer. Ruin Delver's Fortune + Disintegrate = Win

Ganurath
2009-06-26, 01:15 AM
I was think Fell Flight, Detect Magic spam, Baleful Utterance spam... You get the idea.

Thurbane
2009-06-26, 01:35 AM
The reason the Warlock freaks out a lot of people (myself included when I first discovered the class) is the fact that it's an "all day long" class in a game dominated by classes that are designed for a limited number of encounters per day. Some of the old school gamers I play with felt that same way about Dragon Shamans (believe it or not) - "OMG, he can use his breath weapon an unlimited number of times per day!!!". Ditto for reserve feats.

Once you get past that mental hurdle, the class (and others of a similar vein, like the Dragonfire Adept) is quite reasonable.

Eldariel
2009-06-26, 01:51 AM
The reason the Warlock freaks out a lot of people (myself included when I first discovered the class) is the fact that it's an "all day long" class in a game dominated by classes that are designed for a limited number of encounters per day. Some of the old school gamers I play with felt that same way about Dragon Shamans (believe it or not) - "OMG, he can use his breath weapon an unlimited number of times per day!!!". Ditto for reserve feats.

Once you get past that mental hurdle, the class (and others of a similar vein, like the Dragonfire Adept) is quite reasonable.

This is also helped by the fact that they frankly don't play out like Casters; in practice Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts are more of glorified Archers with few support abilities than actual spellcasters - actual casters have spell lists spanning a thousand pages and just the right tool for every problem, along with a bunch of semi-broken spells on every level from level 1, and access to a great number of their whole list with little work at rather short notice (depending on the player, how quick).

Warlocks and company are just very heavily limited to what they chose on the level-up, and have a very small arsenal of different effects in the end, much like an Archer with a bunch of different magical arrows, and few toys one of which casts Shatter at will.

Wandiya
2009-06-26, 02:14 AM
This fits into the thread (i think):Where can i find the rules for Warlocks?(3.5e) If there any. Thanks in advance:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

revolver kobold
2009-06-26, 02:15 AM
This fits into the thread (i think):Where can i find the rules for Warlocks?(3.5e) If there any. Thanks in advance:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Complete Arcane.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 02:17 AM
They first appeared in Complete Arcane, with suplimentary material in Dragon Magic and Complete Mage. Magic Item Compendium also has some very warlock oriented equipment, but not much.

Wandiya
2009-06-26, 02:31 AM
Is there a way of finding their information on the internet (tried SRD):smallbiggrin:
Thanks =).

revolver kobold
2009-06-26, 02:35 AM
Is there a way of finding their information on the internet (tried SRD):smallbiggrin:
Thanks =).

Not legally, no. But if you read through the Warlock handbooks over on the Wizards boards, while they don't have all the exact stats and rulings, it should give you a pretty good idea of how the class functions and what to expect from it.

TSED
2009-06-26, 02:50 AM
Well, there's always Crystal Keep, too.

(Which is legal, I have been told.)

Eldariel
2009-06-26, 02:54 AM
The class in its entirety is available in Crystal Keep base class index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf), but you'll need to hunt for Invocations elsewhere (I'll just mention they tend to simply replicate some spells though; Warlock Information Compilation (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751117) also makes for a decent source for guessing games).

Honestly though, if you care for Warlocks, I suggest you man up and purchase Complete Arcane.

JeminiZero
2009-06-26, 03:17 AM
The class in its entirety is available in Crystal Keep base class index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf), but you'll need to hunt for Invocations elsewhere


Like say, the Crystal Keep Warlock Invocation List (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Invocations-Warlock.pdf).

Eldariel
2009-06-26, 03:28 AM
Like say, the Crystal Keep Warlock Invocation List (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Invocations-Warlock.pdf).

...heh. I was only browsing the Core Classes list 'cause it has all the ACF spell lists and such, thinking Warlock Invocations would be there too. Little did I remember they have separate indexes for everything else... Seems like your problem is solved, Wandiya.

Shpadoinkle
2009-06-26, 04:26 AM
Walocks are like what bards profess to be- a jack of all trades, but master of none. The warlock makes a better JoaT, but the bard is a better support class.

Also, yes, the warlock shines most around level 6. This will level off in a few levels.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-26, 12:26 PM
Then it's just a matter of dispelling you. No warlock can "whittle you down without an effort" unless the DM is throwing things at you without any regard for matching them to your strength.

Dispelling the Infinity +1 times you mean? Because the Warlock will just multi-buff himself and they all overlap: meaning it is practicaly impossible to dispel them all.
Or you'll be spending hours in real time rolling those dispel checks (yes real time).

Teron
2009-06-26, 12:46 PM
From what I've seen, Crystal Keep contains more than a few errors. I agree with Eldariel that it's best for several reasons to just buy the book.

Thorin
2009-06-26, 01:43 PM
I am actually playing a warlock lvl 10, as we speak.

Actually is warlock 5/ Nature´s Emissary (homebrew PrC druid-like class) 5

level 1-3 is really dull. You remain untouched most of the time (spider walk + entropic shuield) and your outcome of damage is low. the barbarian party will outshine everyone as always. Not really a surprise there.

levels 4-10 are quite fun. You still remain untouched flying all day long and can hit multiple enemies using eldritch chain. Detect magic at-will is one of the best thing you can get out of the fight. Your damage outcome is now average (im actually at 6d8 because of the chausible of fell power and a invocation that grants d8s to eldritch blast) and you still got to pass the spell resistance. The barbarian outcome damage is, of course, greater than yours.

--BUT--

We are playing a really encounter-intensive campaign, so the wizard we had was killed at level 6 and usually ended the last encounters running amok invisible while we kept fighting. the DM had to give the cleric homebrew items that increases his daily allotment of healing and the amount of healing for every spell AND the cleric is optimized for healing... (Would you believe that this is not enough to not spend all his daily allotment of spells?). The barbarian does indeed a lot of damage, BUT he can be in the front line for a certain time before crying for healing and run back to the cleric (he certainly has hit -8 HP several times and i Reincarnete him in a human (yeay for scrolls from SpC)). The TWF ranger hits 1/2 of the time, and as the enmies have DR/- he usually does very little.

While I? I go to bed pretty much the same way I wake up every day. From the fresh morning to the crippy night, my at-will abilities remain fresh as a... fresh lettuce. You want concentrated power? Get a wizard. You want more durability an less versatility? Go Sorcerer. You want a "From dawn to dawn & let them come"? Warlock all the way baby.

The power here is not on how much you can do on a encounter. Is on how much can you do all day long

GreyMantle
2009-06-27, 03:18 PM
Dude, just have the party pool together and buy a bunch of CLW or Vigor wands. You'll feel kinda silly rubbing each other with glow sticks after every battle, but I can pretty much guarantee you'll be fine for healing.

Drascin
2009-06-27, 03:35 PM
Rule of funny: you need three things to walk into a bar.


Change it to a Soulknife, then. Certainly a class that gets served in its supposed role by almost everyone. Poor Soulknife.

Green Bean
2009-06-27, 03:53 PM
Dispelling the Infinity +1 times you mean? Because the Warlock will just multi-buff himself and they all overlap: meaning it is practicaly impossible to dispel them all.
Or you'll be spending hours in real time rolling those dispel checks (yes real time).

All of which disappears the first time you actually attack something.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-27, 04:27 PM
All of which disappears the first time you actually attack something.

I'm confused why it disappears?
Flight doesn't have duration concentration....

Or do you mean you eventually will stop buffing Fell Flight? Sure, but that leaves 1 buff per round till meet enemy.

If we assume 10 per minute (6 seconds/rd) then we should see at least an hour or two before seeing the enemy.
Meaning minimum 600 to 1200 Fell Flights to dispel. How many d20's do you have? I'm betting it is less than that.

Flickerdart
2009-06-27, 04:32 PM
I'm confused why it disappears?
Flight doesn't have duration concentration....

Or do you mean you eventually will stop buffing Fell Flight? Sure, but that leaves 1 buff per round till meet enemy.

If we assume 10 per minute (6 seconds/rd) then we should see at least an hour or two before seeing the enemy.
Meaning minimum 600 to 1200 Fell Flights to dispel. How many d20's do you have? I'm betting it is less than that.
You can't stack buffs like that. A buff doesn't stack with itself.

He means Invisibility, which turns off the moment you attack or cast. Greater Invisibility (Do Warlocks get that?) doesn't have the restriction.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-27, 04:34 PM
You can't stack buffs like that. A buff doesn't stack with itself.

He means Invisibility, which turns off the moment you attack or cast. Greater Invisibility (Do Warlocks get that?) doesn't have the restriction.

Sorry, Flicker you can stack buffs: they just overlap. They stack in regards to dispelling which was what i'm referring in response to.

See my text he quoted.

Also I was talking about Fell Flight...not sure why he assumed invisibility. But um sure...that would deactivate each buff of it when attacking at time.

The buffs would still stack (overlap) but invisibility would all deactivate at same time.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-27, 04:42 PM
You can't stack buffs like that. A buff doesn't stack with itself.

He means Invisibility, which turns off the moment you attack or cast. Greater Invisibility (Do Warlocks get that?) doesn't have the restriction.

He is referring to having many seperate invocation on him. You can only have one, for example, Fell Flight on at the same time. Yes. However, 1) he can pull it back up as a standard action whenever he wants, and 2) likely has four or five other invocations which he ALSO has up at the same time, each of which must be dispelled seperately.

Meanwhile, I'm blowing you up while you are trying to dispel my at-will invocations. Using Quicken SLA if necessary to not only keep putting them up faster than you are dispelling them, but also being able to blast you between putting them back up.

Flickerdart
2009-06-27, 04:45 PM
I'm not saying you can't recast them, I'm saying you can't cast Flight 600 times and have to make someone cast Dispel 600 times if they want it off.

Also, if you dispel flight, they still fall before they can raise it again. If that's not an issue, there's hardly a reason to waste the action.

Toliudar
2009-06-27, 06:04 PM
I'm not saying you can't recast them, I'm saying you can't cast Flight 600 times and have to make someone cast Dispel 600 times if they want it off.

I'm not sure why this WOULDN'T work. You can have multiple spells with the same effect going - why wouldn't the same be true of invocations?

Stormthorn
2009-06-27, 07:12 PM
So...im not good at optimizing. At level 7 how much damage should a fighter do in a round compared to a warlock?

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-27, 07:26 PM
In my experience, Warlocks are not overpowered.

One of my players is playing a Warlock on my Friday game. At fifth level, has a few distinct advantages that no one else in the party has (he almost never fails a Knowledge or Spellcraft check, for instance, and can see just fine in magical darkness), but he's far from what I'd consider overpowered.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-27, 07:30 PM
So...im not good at optimizing. At level 7 how much damage should a fighter do in a round compared to a warlock?

Charging: 2d6+6+21+1=35 damage on average. 2 attacks if pouncing. Pouncing means you are a barbarian, which means you're going to deal more damage when raging, but we'll leave that out of the equation.

Per attack: 2d6+6+4+1=18 damage on average. 2 attacks on a full attack action.

lsfreak
2009-06-27, 07:32 PM
So...im not good at optimizing. At level 7 how much damage should a fighter do in a round compared to a warlock?

At 7th level, a fighter can have Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper at the very least, say a +5 Str.
2d6+1 for a +1 greatsword
+7 for Strength
+21 for Leap Attack + Power Attack (going for the low end, because I'm still not 100% sure on how the multipliers work).
So the fighter should be doing one attack at an average of 36 damage on a charge. On a non-charge, he won't power attack for as much, so... still make it an average of 28-30, and two attacks.

Change it to an orc barbarian, and you've got two attacks at 41 each on a charge. A single +1 weapon enhancement doubles the damage. A human paladin charger with flaws would be getting... at least 60 damage on a charge and could pump it up to 120 a couple times a day. Against, doubled with the right weapon enhancement.

The warlock should be getting around 5d6 at that point (17.5 average), possibly up to 8d6 with some work (Mortalbane, etc) for an average of 28 damage.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-27, 07:38 PM
So...im not good at optimizing. At level 7 how much damage should a fighter do in a round compared to a warlock?Depends on level of optimization. An Orc Fighter 6/Paladin 1 can easily deal:
7(Str)+2d6(Greatsword)+1(enchantment)+28(Power Attack, Leap Attack), all of that doubled due to a Wand Bracer'd Wand of Rhino's Rush or the Valorious weapon enhancement. 86 damage. Add another 42 if you can squeeze in both the Wand and the weapon. And you don't lose BAB, thanks to Shock Trooper. Make it Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter and toss in 1 Barb in exchange for 1 Fighter, and you get a full attack and Rage. Haste adds an additional attack on top of it. A Warlock deals, what, 5d6? 5-30 damage, average 17. Not OP at all, even if it is a ranged touch.

Zaq
2009-06-27, 07:45 PM
One of the best tricks I've seen a Warlock doing is spamming the Invocation "Curse of Despair," which is basically the same thing as Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm). Powerful? Yes. Overpowered? Not even a little bit. It requires a melee touch attack (Yay, caster in melee!) and they still get a save, so really, it's not all that powerful. It's just something that most casters can't or wouldn't normally choose to do. Still, Bestow Curse is a useful effect, for that window in which the save isn't completely negligible.

Still not overpowered in the slightest, but at least it's a unique trick, more or less. (At the level at which Curse of Despair becomes available, a wizard or cleric could curse a foe to great effect, but they wouldn't really be able to spam it. This is one of the few invocations for which you'd actually WANT to cast the equivalent spell over and over and over.) It's also rather hilarious out-of-combat, but that's another story.

Stormthorn
2009-06-27, 07:55 PM
Where is this "Leap Attack" thing? Im going to run a game but we only have the core books 1 and the SRD so i doubt i will have to worry about the fighter trying to use it but he might look it up online.



So what your saying is that it comes down to the Warlock not having a lot of feats he can layer on to boost his damage? Because when i think fighters all i think (due to my lack of books) si the stuff from the SRD and that doesnt seem like its designed for high damage output.

lsfreak
2009-06-27, 08:01 PM
Doesn't have the feats and doesn't the benefit of being able to add 1.5x his Str bonus onto his damage, and the crit range is 20/x2 instead of 15-20/x2 like melee classes can get pretty easily (falchions). EDIT: And it makes a single attack rather than getting iteratives.

Leap Attack (feat from Complete Adventurer) lets you double the effect of Power Attack after making a jump during a charge, though I've heard some conflict on how it's applied.
Power Attack does 1:1.
Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon is 2:1.
Leap Attack states is deals +100% the "normal," which could be argued the normal is 1:1 (making LA+PA 3:1) or could be argued that 2:1 is normal for 2-handed weapons (making LA+PA 4:1).
I've also heard it argued that using a 2-handed weapon already doubles the effect and so adding another doubling on top of that puts it at 3:1 (doubling a double is a triple), or that +100% is worded differently than "doubling" and therefore it's 4:1.
If I'm not mistaken, most people go with that LA+PA with a 2-handed weapon gives you 4:1 returns.

Add on Leap Attack with some form of Pounce (full attack after a charge) and the feat Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior (lets you take the PA penalty from AC instead of your attack bonus). EDIT: There's also a bit of controversy about how Leap Attack is applied during a pounce, because the description states a "single blow" but Power Attack always takes effect until the beginning of your next turn and should therefore apply to all attacks during a pounce.

Viv
2009-06-27, 08:07 PM
Power Attack says:


If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

Leap Attack says:


If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

Draw your own conclusions.

My opinion: Keyword is "instead." You do what leap attack says instead of what Power Attack says, not in addition to or multiplied with. If you multiplied it, you would get (BAB Subtracted)*(2 for PA)*(3 for LA). That's pretty much obviously absurd, IMO.

lsfreak
2009-06-27, 08:10 PM
Ah, but the 2-handed part is not listed under the normal part of the feat, but under Special, and is therefore not the normal benefit.

Also, the errata states nothing about doubling (or tripling) the attack, but instead "you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat," which is not a doubling.

I go with 4:1 myself, at least until I hear a good argument otherwise (100% is not a doubling and 2:1 for 2-handed is the normal benefit, not 1:1).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-27, 08:12 PM
Power Attack says:



Leap Attack says:



Draw your own conclusions.IIRC, it was errata'd or something to read '+100%' rather than 'double'. Stupid errata, but eh.

@Stormthorn: Core-only, the best bet is not straight damage as a Fighter. Leave that to the Rogue(TWF is good with SA). PA without Leap Attack or Shock Trooper is less effective, due to the loss of BAB for damage(though the Lance becomes much better in that case). Instead, you grab a Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Imp Trip, Imp Disarm, Stand Still, and similar feats to make it so the enemy is forced to face you, and can't do much then. Saph's 'Horizon Tripper' is the best core-only Fighter floating around IMHO.

Viv
2009-06-27, 08:14 PM
The errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) says to change the second sentence, not the third. The third reads:


If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

NOTE: I'm a little repetitive here to be fair to lsfreak, since I was editing my previous comment while he was posting his. So if there's a little discontinuity there, that's why.

Stormthorn
2009-06-27, 08:15 PM
Draw your own conclusions.

If thats what the book says then the intentions of the writers where pretty clear. 3/1 ratio of Attack to Damage.


Note also that the bit where in power attack the thing about 2h weapons is int he "special" part of the entry rather than the normal rules?

Starbuck_II
2009-06-27, 10:19 PM
I'm not sure why this WOULDN'T work. You can have multiple spells with the same effect going - why wouldn't the same be true of invocations?

If this wasnt the intended result: why does the PHB mention overlaping effects.

In fact, it uses Charm used more than once on a target (must be dispelled twice now).

So unless Fell Flight specifically says otherwise they overlap and must all bwe dispelled.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-27, 10:27 PM
Where is this "Leap Attack" thing? Im going to run a game but we only have the core books 1 and the SRD so i doubt i will have to worry about the fighter trying to use it but he might look it up online.



So what your saying is that it comes down to the Warlock not having a lot of feats he can layer on to boost his damage? Because when i think fighters all i think (due to my lack of books) si the stuff from the SRD and that doesnt seem like its designed for high damage output.

You are correct in that Warlocks have few ways to further increase their damage output, but the bigger problem is that they can only shoot once a turn. A 16th level Barbarian can swing a 2h sword 4 times, each likely for more damage than a single EB does. Even with Chain Blast, your secondary targets only take half damage, which isn't enough to really annoy anything unless they're already almost dead.

Eldariel
2009-06-27, 10:47 PM
If thats what the book says then the intentions of the writers where pretty clear. 3/1 ratio of Attack to Damage.

However, the errata does superceed the normal rules and states you get +100%; while it doesn't change the first sentence, it seems reasonable to assume it's meant to cover the whole Power Attack (one- or two-handed), because otherwise it would be a pointless erratum (one-handed power attack treats "doubling" the same as +100% and yet the erratum was applied). It seems to me like Leap Attack was specifically changed to give the same comparative benefit to one-handers and two-handers.


Note also that the bit where in power attack the thing about 2h weapons is int he "special" part of the entry rather than the normal rules?

Indeed, though that's rather trivial. Anyways, looking at a level 6 Core Fighter (I'd frankly rather have a Barbarian, but whatever), you can get 2d6+7 base damage from stats alone (20 Str with 17 to start with and +2 item), which averages at 14. If he has Power Attack and Improved Trip, he can go for the Trip and if succeeding (at +9, few creatures of equivalent CR stand a chance against him), he'll easily be able to PA for 4 for +8 damage, which adds up to 22.

I suppose he also might as well have Weapon Specialization 'cause he has feats to burn, which puts him at 24 for two attacks (most likely done at 6+5+1 Mw.+1 WF (assuming Specialization), or +13 and any flanking/charging/higher ground benefits or such). Barbarian gets the +4 Str for Str 24, and Orc Barbarian gets it up to 28, or +7 Str > +10 damage, and +9 Str > +13 damage. Orc Barbarian gets 20 damage from Str and weapon alone, and attacks at 6+9+1, or +16. He is also very likely to win the opposed Trip-checks, putting him at +20 to attack with up to +6 being convertable into damage via. Power Attack.

Taking a random CR 6 brawler, say Ettin, the Barbarian is like to succeed the Trip (doubly so if Enlarge Person is in effect, but even without it, he's +13 vs. the Ettin's +10, or ~61% to win the check - Enlarge Person would put the Orc at +18 for almost certain victory), and expected to deal 44.66 damage on a full attack at PA -4, or 29.92 on charging single attack with PA for full. The Warlock is like to deal 27.93 at 8d6 (given at least +6 on his touch attack; he shouldn't be missing Ettins) with little pimping out of Eldritch Blast. He can match the single attack of a Core Barbarian decently, but the moment iteratives get thrown in, he's left in dust (let alone once we're talking Haste, Enlarge, etc.). And yeah, out of Core charging becomes pretty damn awesome making the single attack Barbarian win out too (although out of Core, it's easier to get full attack with charge).

It's also worth noting that while Eldritch Blast can have inconveniencing side effects, Trip is worse than any of them, meaning not only is the melee dealing more damage, he's also debuffing the opponent more (at this point).

Viv
2009-06-27, 11:17 PM
However, the errata does superceed the normal rules and states you get +100%; while it doesn't change the first sentence, it seems reasonable to assume it's meant to cover the whole Power Attack (one- or two-handed), because otherwise it would be a pointless erratum (one-handed power attack treats "doubling" the same as +100% and yet the erratum was applied). It seems to me like Leap Attack was specifically changed to give the same comparative benefit to one-handers and two-handers.

Pre-errata, it reads:


You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

Post-errata, it reads:


You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

Notice that the sentence handling two-handed leap attacks is unchanged.

I think the real intent here is to count the damage from Power Attack and Leap Attack as part of the base damage. That is to say, you get +2*loss from BAB single handed and +3*loss from BAB two handed, but the damage has NOT yet been doubled, tripled, etc, for the purposes of other feats and events that double/triple/etc.

Eldariel
2009-06-27, 11:22 PM
Notice that the sentence handling two-handed leap attacks is unchanged.

I think the real intent here is to count the damage from Power Attack and Leap Attack as part of the base damage. That is to say, you get +2*loss from BAB single handed and +3*loss from BAB two handed, but the damage has NOT been yet been doubled, tripled, etc, for the purposes of other feats and events that double/triple/etc.

I pretty much always assumed they meant "remove the third sentence; it's redundant", because otherwise two-handed PA gets really broken (Frenzied Berserker doesn't have such a phrase left in the editing meaning it'd use the x3 from Leap Attack as the base damage and doubled that...actually, it'd result in the same x6 return either way, but it does make additional PA increases more powerful), and there's a precedent for a change like this but not for what they did without removing 3rd sentence.

Viv
2009-06-27, 11:26 PM
Well, it doesn't say to remove the third sentence, only to replace the second one.

Ultimately, I think it's a poorly worded feat that's subject to multiple interpretations, and you can't really come up with a definitive answer.

Eldariel
2009-06-27, 11:31 PM
Well, it doesn't say to remove the third sentence, only to replace the second one.

Ultimately, I think it's a poorly worded feat that's subject to multiple interpretations, and you can't really come up with a definitive answer.

Yeah, what I'm interested in is the intent behind the errata. It seems to me like they wanted to make it work the same way Frenzied Berserker's Improved/Supreme Power Attack do, but I can't be sure.

Though for what it's worth, I kinda like it being 4xreturn for two-handers since that makes it a good feat to take. Otherwise, it's not all that useful (though still something a charger probably wants to pick up).

Viv
2009-06-27, 11:33 PM
I don't know. An extra 50% damage isn't as good as an extra 100%, but it's not too shabby in any case.