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View Full Version : [4e] Help me compare some Sorcelatin' concept



Burley
2009-06-25, 01:38 PM
Based on a conversation with a friend, and as an exercise in optimization, I ask which two Sorcerer Builds would be best. The only restrictions: It's 4e, don't make things up, and stay as exclusive as possible to the two concepts.

Mr. Freeze:
The first focuses on cold spells (exclusively when possible). I'm 85% certain there is a cold spell for every attack level between PHB2 and ArcaPow. (Oh, yeah. ArcaPow. Tell your friends.) Plus, the feats Wintertouched and Lasting Frost, presented in PHB1, don't see enough use. Of course, the cold based Paragon path in ArcaPow is a must.

Areana Mc(play on words here)pants
The other idea focuses on Area attacks (exclusively when possible). Storm Source-or-or would be best, in my mind. I dunno about feats, or anything, really.

So, any ideas?

Sir Homeslice
2009-06-25, 01:58 PM
Areana Mc(play on words here)pants
The other idea focuses on Area attacks (exclusively when possible). Storm Source-or-or would be best, in my mind. I dunno about feats, or anything, really.

Enter Li Zhou (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=124813), Drow Storm Sorceror/Rogue/Daggermaster/Demigod, and Critmaster extraordinaire (also as a side effect he's quite good at blasting areas). He deals 160 damage (5d10 Bloodiron, 2d10 War Rings, 1d10 Devestating Critical, all maxed due to Fury of the Storm. Doubled because of Bloodiron.) on a crit, on which he has an 18-20 range, and due to Sorcerous Flux (swap attack rolls when attacking two or more creatures), he can focus fire for maximum carnage. When he eventually sizzles out of encounter powers, and when he chooses not to throw up dailies for more fun, Blazing Starfall is an Area Burst 1 within 10 that can repeat itself if and when it scores a critical, although no crit recursion can happen.

Mando Knight
2009-06-25, 02:00 PM
When he eventually sizzles out of encounter powers,

The character is a demigod. At level 30, that time will be undefined.

Nahal
2009-06-25, 02:09 PM
So far I'm quite happy with my Chaos sorceror, Korgan. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=116730) I created him pre-ArcaPow, otherwise I would probably have made STR his tertiary attribute instead of CON and made him Storm Source to maximize his crit damage. As it stands, all but one of his attacks includes a debuff and/or forced movement (thanks to psychic lock, all his Psychic attacks impose a -2 penalty on the target's next attack roll. This keeps Chaos Bolt's secondary attack relevant all the way up to lvl30). I'm sure he can be tweaked into the realms of insanity by a proper charop expert, but I'm sadly not one of them.

Alteran
2009-06-25, 02:10 PM
I do like the idea of a full-out cold sorcerer, since I like cold damage. You'd definitely go with Dragon Magic and pick cold as your damage type, since Wild Magic and Cosmic Magic are less consistent. At-will powers...probably dragonfrost (obviously) and burning spray. You might consider using Arcane Admixture (paragon feat, ArcaPow P130) to add cold damage to burning spray.

Keep in mind that Blizzard Mage isn't an amazing paragon path. The capstone (Blizzard) is a fantastic power, but the rest is poor to average to good. In general, it gets better as you get to higher levels.

Arena McPants, hmm. You say area attacks, I'm not sure if you count close attacks in here. If you do, then dragon magic would be a good choice. Otherwise, probably storm, maaaybe cosmic? I know they get burning starfall, an at-will ranged burst. Other sorcerers can take it, but it won't be quite as good. I'm going to suggest storm because I like it better. The whole idea of storm magic is very interesting to me, and I love the two static resistances (that can be dropped for a shield-like effect). Storm sorcerers get quite a few good area powers, but I would probably stay away from the leaping bolt type ones, where you hit one target and then sometimes get chances to branch out and hit others. Not only do these powers require an initial hit to even attack other targets (which I dislike), they're not strictly area attacks.

I would suggest enlarge spell (also ArcaPow), but it's a wizard-only feat. Sorcerers tend to do quite well with multiple-target attacks, since their bonus damage is not limited to one hit per round. If a rogue hits 3 enemies in a turn, they can only use sneak attack on one of them. If a sorcerer hits 3 enemies in a turn, they can get their dragon/wild/storm/cosmic power damage on all of them.

Sir Homeslice
2009-06-25, 02:20 PM
The character is a demigod. At level 30, that time will be undefined.

Eight levels is awfully far off to be dreaming of infinite Wildrift Bursts and Mother Claws, don'tcha think?

Plus, lol level 30.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-25, 02:53 PM
Remember to take Implement Expertise (Wand) and Dual Implement Caster.

Nahal
2009-06-25, 02:56 PM
To be a little more helpful, If you're going for the arena build it's hard for me to overstate the utility of the Prismatic line of dailies. You may get some more raw damage output from the others, but the effects still come into play regardless of whether you hit or miss AND each of them carries a relatively potent debuff. You may get frustrated on occasion when you start running into resistances, but if you want to sow chaos among a group of enemies it's tough to beat the sheer screw-with factor of Primatics IMO.

Personally I'd pick the Arena build over Mr. Freeze, simply because I have a thing for battlefield control effects but find wizards to have a depressingly low damage output in 4e. I'd probably pick Storm Source over the others because they can protect allies as well as deal ungodly damage to enemies (a number of their rider effects are "the origin of the burst can be left out," which is fun times if you've got an ally being flanked and/or surrounded). I'm also partial to wild mage for flavor reasons, but they're a bit less predictable (duh).

NPCMook
2009-06-25, 03:35 PM
Enter Li Zhou (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=124813), Drow Storm Sorceror/Rogue/Daggermaster/Demigod, and Critmaster extraordinaire (also as a side effect he's quite good at blasting areas). He deals 160 damage (5d10 Bloodiron, 2d10 War Rings, 1d10 Devestating Critical, all maxed due to Fury of the Storm. Doubled because of Bloodiron.) on a crit, on which he has an 18-20 range, and due to Sorcerous Flux (swap attack rolls when attacking two or more creatures), he can focus fire for maximum carnage. When he eventually sizzles out of encounter powers, and when he chooses not to throw up dailies for more fun, Blazing Starfall is an Area Burst 1 within 10 that can repeat itself if and when it scores a critical, although no crit recursion can happen.

There's still a lot of debate on Daggermaster working with Sorcerer's using Daggers as Implements.

Asbestos
2009-06-25, 04:16 PM
Remember to take Implement Expertise (Wand) and Dual Implement Caster.
Yeah, but then you can't let your Martial prowess in using daggers as weapons help you crit more often with your Arcane ranged burst attacks channeled through daggers.



Or... what NPC Mook said.

Sir Homeslice
2009-06-25, 04:21 PM
There's still a lot of debate on Daggermaster working with Sorcerer's using Daggers as Implements.

The Daggermaster debate can kiss my impossibly magnificent arse. It's an 18-20 range and I'm rolling with nothing but obscene crit damage and bursts, with no chance of friendlies getting critted, unless I manage to somehow catch two allies in the burst and manage to crit both, in which case someone is going to have to cast Raise Dead and it ain't me.

SadisticFishing
2009-06-25, 04:24 PM
Don't touch Demigod's level 30 ability with a 10 foot pole. Find some change for it before you use it, otherwise there are too many infinite damage combos - and they totally invalidate your at-wills. Meh.

I'm playing a Cold Dragon sorcerer, and loving it. Draconic Arrogance = win.

But you should always use Area Attack, and never give up an amazing power just because another power is cold.

Oh, and Dagger Master definitely works, at the moment.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-25, 04:33 PM
Yeah, but then you can't let your Martial prowess in using daggers as weapons help you crit more often with your Arcane ranged burst attacks channeled through daggers.



Or... what NPC Mook said.

You should read more Penny Arcade.

Mando Knight
2009-06-25, 04:38 PM
In that case, use Focused Expertise (Dagger). It'll help both your Sorcelator spells and your Daggermaster exploits.

Asbestos
2009-06-25, 04:49 PM
You should read more Penny Arcade.

I do, I'm just tired of sorcerer builds that seem to have been thought up in order to fight Wolfoids and Witchaloks. The debate about Daggermaster is one of those annoying RAI vs RAW things. Rules lawyers will say it works one way and they will be right according to RAW, everyone else will just groan.

NPCMook
2009-06-25, 04:54 PM
I do, I'm just tired of sorcerer builds that seem to have been thought up in order to fight Wolfoids and Witchaloks. The debate about Daggermaster is one of those annoying RAI vs RAW things. Rules lawyers will say it works one way and they will be right according to RAW, everyone else will just groan.

I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

Asbestos
2009-06-25, 04:59 PM
I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

Or maybe primal ones, the key is using the dagger as a weapon rather than an implement.

Sorry for lumping 'people who interpret the rules to their every advantage' in with 'Rules Lawyers'.

Sir Homeslice
2009-06-25, 05:02 PM
I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers


Dagger Precision (11th level): You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18–20.

Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage.

Neither of these mention the prerequisite of being only used for Martial powers. An attack is an attack, and scoring critical hits with Daggermaster's 11th level feature, by the rules, doesn't care whether it's a stab to the kidneys, or a bolt of lightning, as long as the attack is made using the dagger and the attack was able to hit anyways as per Critical Hit rules.

NPCMook
2009-06-25, 05:06 PM
Neither of these mention the prerequisite of being only used for Martial powers. An attack is an attack, and scoring critical hits with Daggermaster's 11th level feature, by the rules, doesn't care whether it's a stab to the kidneys, or a bolt of lightning, as long as the attack is made using the dagger and the attack was able to hit anyways as per Critical Hit rules.

Yes, we get it you are a munchkin, we stopped caring a long time ago, go back to making builds with Punisher of the Gods.

Sir Homeslice
2009-06-25, 05:08 PM
Yes, we get it you are a munchkin, we stopped caring a long time ago, go back to making builds with Punisher of the Gods.

Oh yes, having Daggermaster work with implement attacks means I love Punisher of the Gods, which aside from having nice fluff, is so horrendously cheesy that all of CharOp reviles its very name.

Jumping to conclusions, much?

SadisticFishing
2009-06-25, 05:29 PM
Okay, so do Jagged Daggers work? How about Weapon Focus (Light Blades)? The clear response to both of these is - yes. Duh.

CLEARLY Daggermaster works. It's odd, but I mean... being a master of the dagger doesn't necessarily just mean cutting with it, either.

Jumping to calling people munchkins because they understand how to read the rules to their advantage, yet properly, is unfair and uncalled for.

Plus Punisher of the Gods is stupid :P

Though note that offhand Staff of Ruin is not allowed as written, and Blood Iron Weapons are retarded and should be stayed away from as much as Reckless and Bloodclaw weapons (I sat down and did the math).

Sir Homeslice
2009-06-25, 05:40 PM
Though note that offhand Staff of Ruin is not allowed as written

Offhand implement properties apply to the main hand, while offhand weapon properties do not, IIRC.

Also yes, Bloodiron is absolute madness, but the DM literally told me to throw everything I've got at him (PotG not included, as it's so unfair it's not even funny), so...

Mando Knight
2009-06-25, 08:13 PM
I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

Ew. No. That makes Rogue MC for Bards painful. And stops Spellscar powers from working with Rogues. :smallyuk:

SadisticFishing
2009-06-25, 09:12 PM
Nope, offhand properties apply, unless they say "with this weapon", sort of thing.

"You get +x to damage." works. "You get +x damage with this implement." does not.

holywhippet
2009-06-25, 10:16 PM
While you are free to flavour your character however you want. I personally would not build a cold exclusive character. Simply because some monsters have cold resistance at which point your character is stuck firing sling bullets or whatever. Could you imagine running into a few chillborne zombies with nothing but cold up your sleeve?

Gralamin
2009-06-25, 10:29 PM
While you are free to flavour your character however you want. I personally would not build a cold exclusive character. Simply because some monsters have cold resistance at which point your character is stuck firing sling bullets or whatever. Could you imagine running into a few chillborne zombies with nothing but cold up your sleeve?

Indeed, unless you can convince the DM to let you re flavor Lightning Fury, Or at least steal "Unstoppable Lightning"

Alteran
2009-06-25, 10:37 PM
Could you imagine running into a few chillborne zombies with nothing but cold up your sleeve?

They actually only have resist 10 cold. They're level 6 soldiers, so you'll likely be in mid heroic tier when you face them. Since you'll be a dragon sorcerer choosing cold as your damage type, they'll effectively have resist 5 to your cold attacks. That's annoying, but not a huge deal. After all, with dragonfrost you could deal an average of (4.5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 2) 15.5 cold damage. That's a 5 point reduction in damage, or about 33%. While significant in heroic tier, it's not crippling. After all, how often will you face enemies with resistance to cold?

holywhippet
2009-06-25, 10:39 PM
They actually only have resist 10 cold. They're level 6 soldiers, so you'll likely be in mid heroic tier when you face them.

Tell that to my DM. Our party have run into 3 of them so far (2 in our first battle, 1 in a later battle) and we are all level 1. He decided to go for fewer, high level monsters rather than numerous weaklings.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-25, 10:51 PM
Tell that to my DM. Our party have run into 3 of them so far (2 in our first battle, 1 in a later battle) and we are all level 1. He decided to go for fewer, high level monsters rather than numerous weaklings.

Then he should use elites and solos instead (there are even rules how to convert normal enemies into them) - monsters that are more than 4 levels above you usually have simply too high attack bonus and defenses. Especially soldiers.

RTGoodman
2009-06-25, 10:58 PM
Then he should use elites and solos instead (there are even rules how to convert normal enemies into them) - monsters that are more than 4 levels above you usually have simply too high attack bonus and defenses. Especially soldiers.

Yeah, pretty much. Your problem isn't the monsters' resistances, it's your DM throwing things at you that you probably shouldn't be facing.


After all, how often will you face enemies with resistance to cold?

According to this handy thread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html), about 2% of Heroic monsters have Resist Cold of some sort (with the highest being 20 and most being 5-10), and none are immune. At Paragon levels, it's about 6% that have some sort of resistance (anywhere from 5 to 30), and .5% are immune. Still not TOO bad. At Epic tier, though, some 15% have cold resistance, with significant values; none are outright immune, fortunately.

SadisticFishing
2009-06-25, 11:49 PM
By the way, sadly the resistance thing doesn't ignore any resistance GREATER than yours...

So if you have 5 cold resist, and they have 10, you don't ignore it at all. If you do then 15 cold damage, they take five.

Sucks eh?

holywhippet
2009-06-25, 11:53 PM
The flipside of resistance is vulnerability. If you were a cold exclusive sorcerer facing chillborne zombies you might still be able to do damage. However, if you had a spell that did fire damage you'd get a bonus to your damage output if you hit them with it. As such, versatility is a good idea. It's a good idea in 4E in general - if you run into enemies with high AC but low reflex defense it helps to have attacks that target vs. reflex.

Gralamin
2009-06-25, 11:55 PM
According to this handy thread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html), about 2% of Heroic monsters have Resist Cold of some sort (with the highest being 20 and most being 5-10), and none are immune. At Paragon levels, it's about 6% that have some sort of resistance (anywhere from 5 to 30), and .5% are immune. Still not TOO bad. At Epic tier, though, some 15% have cold resistance, with significant values; none are outright immune, fortunately.
I'm about half way through running similar stats for the MM2, and Cold is slightly more common so far.


By the way, sadly the resistance thing doesn't ignore any resistance LESS than yours...

So if you have 5 cold resist, and they have 10, you don't ignore it at all. If you do then 15 cold damage, they take five.

Sucks eh?

That would be greater then yours :P

Exact quote is

Your arcane powers ignore any target's resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance
Up to the value of resistance indicates that if you have resist 10, and your facing someone with resist 5, it reduces it to 0. It also means if you have 5, and your facing someone with resist 10, it reduces it to 5. I see nowhere that would indicate it works how you state.

SadisticFishing
2009-06-26, 07:08 AM
It ignores resistance up to your value. If your value is 10, it ignores resistances up to 10. Read any of the other things that reduce resistances, they're all worded entirely differently.

You're right, I did mean Greater. Oh well.

By the way, the problem with 4e is when you throw all you can at the DM, you win. There's no question, unless your DM arbitrarily makes fights too hard. This isn't 3.5 where you can design your own fights using the same guidelines as a PC - a properly built Ranger/Pit Fighter can take down Tiamat in one round, no problem...

Burley
2009-06-26, 08:09 AM
It ignores resistance up to your value. If your value is 10, it ignores resistances up to 10. Read any of the other things that reduce resistances, they're all worded entirely differently.

You're right, I did mean Greater. Oh well.

By the way, the problem with 4e is when you throw all you can at the DM, you win. There's no question, unless your DM arbitrarily makes fights too hard. This isn't 3.5 where you can design your own fights using the same guidelines as a PC - a properly built Ranger/Pit Fighter can take down Tiamat in one round, no problem...

The problem is that they aren't the same thing, so we can stop comparing apples to carborators now.

Anyways, whether the wording is or is not in your favor, SadisticFishing, I'm fairly certain the RAI reduces resistance. Otherwise, the ability is practically useless half the time. I'm a big stickler on "RAW-is-LAW", but this isn't just a misplaced word. It's hapax legomenon. We have no bearing on what it means until it hits the WotC FAQ.

Also, I used to be a huge fan of the Sorc-->Daggermaster trick. Kurald knows this. We've had it out before. :smallwink: But, since the release of the Sorcerer only feat that give a 19-20 crit range on sorcerer powers (is it all or just with daggers?), I see that the Daggermaster is meant exclusively for weapon attacks. Now, RAW and theoretics leads me to believe that Daggermaster + Sorcerous Blade Channeling= Sneak Attack with Sorcerer powers= Improved Crit Range.
But, there are better ways to build the character. An extra 10% chance to crit (and its technically not an auto-hit unless it's a 20) isn't worth missing out on the neat stuff that I could get elsewhere.

SadisticFishing
2009-06-26, 08:20 AM
5% chance to crit. Jagged Dagger/Sorcerer Implement Mastery both give you the other 5%. By the way, Daggermaster still definitely works, it's just not as necessary anymore.

Good point. I know it was said that was how it read when levels 1-3 were spoiled a long time ago, but now, I can see it working either way - and your way does make more RAI sense. Plus, I'm actually playing a Sorcerer :P

Burley
2009-06-26, 08:44 AM
Plus, I'm actually playing a Sorcerer :P

So Jealous. I had a sorcerer for one session. 1st level, rolled stats (:smallbiggrin:), had a 20 Cha and 19 dex. During the first encounter, when all of attacks were missing this wierd phantom thing that ended up being a plot device to scare us into the sewers, I used Chromatic Orb and rolled a nat 20 for radiant damage and dazing! So awesome.

SadisticFishing
2009-06-26, 09:02 AM
Yeah, rolling stats in this edition is honestly quite silly, but I'm happy. 19 cha, 18 str dragonborn - but more importantly, 14 int. Also I get to look cool - my physical stats started as 18/16/16... Big friggin Dragonborn with rippling muscles and all that... who then shoots magic lasers. Awesome fun.

Level 4 now.. Flame Spiral is goood...

Why only 1 session?

Burley
2009-06-26, 09:29 AM
Why only 1 session?
The Barbarian was a friend from work who invited me to join his group, and I brought my best friend and a really, really good guy from my group to play. It was kinda frightening.
First, the DM was using a free module he'd picked up from a convention years ago. It was 3rd edition. This was his first time running 4e. It was... interesting. And, by interesting, I mean frustrating. "No. In my game, monsters don't have set defenses. We both roll and add bonuses and compare scores."
The Barbarian's girlfriend wanted to play a Genasi Cleric. It was too confusing for her in actual gameplay, she freaked out on all of us, and we just never went back.