Redcloak and the destruction of the world [spoilers]

[silvadel]

I have been wondering of late whether RC might come to the conclusion that the destruction of the world by the snarl might not be the best solution. I mean he doesnt have to die with the world. He can plane shift out. There is nothing keeping him here (Right-eye and everyone he considers a friend are pretty much dead, while he has plenty of active enemies). Xykon probably wouldnt see it coming and would be unmade.

I mean if he succeeds in controlling a gate, Xykon could have some real tricks up his sleeve and it might not go as planned with the dark one gaining control. And even if he did, it wouldnt be a 100% guarantee that the other gods would take well to being blackmailed.

It the world were destroyed OTOH -- it would be far "neater." The new goblins would get their fair share from the beginning and he could lead them as the first priest of the dark one on world 3. The elder gods wouldnt even know that the dark one was plotting against them.

[SadisticFishing]

Well, the destruction of the world was always Plan B.

[Optimystik]

If the Plan fails AND the world is destroyed, the other gods have no reason to involve the Dark One in its recreation. He'll be in the same situation as before - the others will say "let's make goblins to be exp fodder" and he'll be outvoted. In other words, it'll be square one.

Not to mention, they will reimprison the Snarl all over again - using the threads of reality - and nothing will change. Rifts break out, gates are built, Dark One decides to drop a cloak...

[SadisticFishing]

I don't know that voting is how it works. They all take turns, from what I gather...

[silvadel]

Well, the destruction of the world was always Plan B.

Yes but it becomes a much more attractive Plan B when you can escape from the world before it goes poof rather than going down with the ship.

[SadisticFishing]

I'm not sure how the Snarl plays with planes. I believe it has a long reach.

You charge it, you take TONS of opportunity attacks. Don't even try to cast spells at it!

[Optimystik]

I don't know that voting is how it works. They all take turns, from what I gather...

They did that to make sure the snarl wouldn't grow from their continued discord. But they all agreed on goblins being the bottom rung of the ladder before, they could easily do so again.


Yes but it becomes a much more attractive Plan B when you can escape from the world before it goes poof rather than going down with the ship.

If he fails and poofs away to escape the consequences, the DO may not be pleased. He IS evil, after all, and his proclaimed love for the goblin race is suspect by Right-Eye's account at least.

[SadisticFishing]

He cares about the goblin race. He doesn't care about goblins.

Redcloak is an amazing character and such, but he is a wuss. Xykon explains this rather well.

By the way, Optimistyk, when you're a High Priest of you God, and your God has a Plan.. it tends to be a good idea to try it. Even if it fails, saving your race from the very Gods themselves seems like it was worth attemp.

[Random832]

They did that to make sure the snarl wouldn't grow from their continued discord. But they all agreed on goblins being the bottom rung of the ladder before, they could easily do so again.

Except if such an agreement is going to be a source of discord from the Dark One (who didn't exist the first time around), doing so would be suicidal.

[NerfTW]

Exactly. This time around, they need to make sure the Dark One gets an equal say, and his say will probably be a compromise for the whole "Clerics need to gain XP" situation that caused the original disparity.

If they don't, then they risk another Snarl forming.

Remember that the Dark One's plan wouldn't be to make goblins a ruling race, simply to give them equal resources like the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves. The gods have no real reason to ignore that request when remaking the world. They'll be open to other suggestions for the cleric xp issue.

[Poil]

Maybe the dark one would agree to let the other xp fodder races maintain their status, only saving the goblins. That would still leave a lot of weak monsters to grind on. Then the great dark kobold god would rise up and... so on and so on.

[Finwe]

Exactly. This time around, they need to make sure the Dark One gets an equal say, and his say will probably be a compromise for the whole "Clerics need to gain XP" situation that caused the original disparity.

If they don't, then they risk another Snarl forming.

Remember that the Dark One's plan wouldn't be to make goblins a ruling race, simply to give them equal resources like the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves. The gods have no real reason to ignore that request when remaking the world. They'll be open to other suggestions for the cleric xp issue.

It's also entirely possible that, upon finding out that TDO intentionally destroyed the previous world, they'll kill him before starting work on the next. Or they might not be able to hide from the snarl this time, and thus all of reality would just be chaos. Destroying the world hardly guarantees goblin equality.

[Optimystik]

Except if such an agreement is going to be a source of discord from the Dark One (who didn't exist the first time around), doing so would be suicidal.

This assumes that discord from only one deity is enough to add to the Snarl. Remember, they ALL agreed that goblins would be the bottom feeders the first TWO times.


He cares about the goblin race. He doesn't care about goblins.

That's... a nice way of putting it.


By the way, Optimistyk, when you're a High Priest of you God, and your God has a Plan.. it tends to be a good idea to try it. Even if it fails, saving your race from the very Gods themselves seems like it was worth attemp.

The problem is that Right-Eye's way might have worked, without risking the world's destruction. We'll never know thanks to Xykon.

[Kish]

Exactly. This time around, they need to make sure the Dark One gets an equal say, and his say will probably be a compromise for the whole "Clerics need to gain XP" situation that caused the original disparity.

If they don't, then they risk another Snarl forming.

Remember that the Dark One's plan wouldn't be to make goblins a ruling race, simply to give them equal resources like the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves. The gods have no real reason to ignore that request when remaking the world. They'll be open to other suggestions for the cleric xp issue.
Redcloak's own statement of the terms the Dark One wants has a huge loophole in it. "No humanoid race will get the shaft! Our new goblin adventurers group up with humans and elves and gleefully slaughter nonhumanoid monsters for XP!"

[Alair]

If the Plan fails AND the world is destroyed, the other gods have no reason to involve the Dark One in its recreation. He'll be in the same situation as before - the others will say "let's make goblins to be exp fodder" and he'll be outvoted. In other words, it'll be square one.

Nah, the solution's simple enough. You make a new race, let's call them Boglins or something, and they get to occupy the new bottom of the experience chain.

I don't think the Dark One's opposed to the idea of certain races existing solely to provide exp for the pc races, just offended that his own race was one of the former and not the later.

[Random832]

Nah, the solution's simple enough. You make a new race, let's call them Boglins or something, and they get to occupy the new bottom of the experience chain.

I don't think the Dark One's opposed to the idea of certain races existing solely to provide exp for the pc races, just offended that his own race was one of the former and not the later.

Just make sure they don't have the potential to raise up their own deities, right?

[theinsulabot]

not really, the other gods, seeing whose priest was involved, would probably just jump the dark one, and huck him into the snarl before rebinding it. i seriously doubt they wouldnt do something rather permanant about the dark one before rebuilding the snarl's chains, if it was his priest that let it out

EDIT: a few notes here, many say the god's would never fight amongst themselves because deific combat would destroy the world. but that wouldnt restrain the gods if RC already managed to trash it, and the other argument that usually comes up is gods cant die, but as we well know, they CAN be killed by the snarl. so if i was in the god's shoes, there would be no reason not to take the rare chance to eliminate the god known for meddling with its cage and every reason to do so

[Ancalagon]

Yes but it becomes a much more attractive Plan B when you can escape from the world before it goes poof rather than going down with the ship.

It's not yet clear if "world" only means the material plane (well, "the world") or all planes of existence (including afterlives etc etc), and only some small dimensions far, far away (where the gods hid last time) are spared.

Looking at what the snarl is and that the "world is just the lock on an interdimensional prison" (where was that mentioned? Crayons of Time or SoD?), I'd not be surprised if the snarl's "unmaking the world" would include "the planes" as well (apart from some place where the gods hide*).

* Note: That they were able to hide last time does not mean they can do it again. Maybe they just got lucky last time and relying it would work again is very, very risky business (both from the Dark One as well as from Redcloak).
"One case" is a very bad statistical basis for future predictions.

[Ancalagon]

If the Plan fails AND the world is destroyed, the other gods have no reason to involve the Dark One in its recreation. He'll be in the same situation as before - the others will say "let's make goblins to be exp fodder" and he'll be outvoted. In other words, it'll be square one.

Unlikely. Since the gods cannot kill the Dark One (if they could and he had no supporters among the other gods) they would already have done so. The gods also know where argueing among gods leads, so they'd include the Dark One in the creation of the new world.
But that would leave them with the original problem: They need crapmonsters on which their low-level clerics (and other "weak classes") can xp on - so they'd give the Goblins their fair share of the world BUT would create NEW races who would get the short end of the stick. But this time they'd probably give them even lower Int and Wisdom scores, so they would really be victims and the issue with "the goblins and their purple leader" could not repeat itself.

IF the world gets remade, the Dark One would have a word in it.

[theinsulabot]

Unlikely. Since the gods cannot kill the Dark One

yes they could, and would have a damn good reason for doing so since his cleric would of been the one who freed the snarl. (which i might add would almost certainly alianate every ally he might of made in the celestial realms, since even the most evil or chaotic god's start getting irritable when their lives are threatened). they wouldnt have to kill him, ganging up on him, temporarily sealing his own godly power away, and tossing him to a plane of existance occupied by the snarl would end the dark one's godhood faster then you can say "one shot kill"

[Optimystik]

Unlikely. Since the gods cannot kill the Dark One (if they could and he had no supporters among the other gods) they would already have done so. The gods also know where argueing among gods leads, so they'd include the Dark One in the creation of the new world.

Maybe. You're also assuming that dissent on the DO's part (even with Rat and Tiamat in his corner) would be enough to worry the others.


But that would leave them with the original problem: They need crapmonsters on which their low-level clerics (and other "weak classes") can xp on - so they'd give the Goblins their fair share of the world BUT would create NEW races who would get the short end of the stick. But this time they'd probably give them even lower Int and Wisdom scores, so they would really be victims and the issue with "the goblins and their purple leader" could not repeat itself.

Creating another crap race would just result in them elevating their own deity, and the entire cycle would repeat. And goblins were made with low mental stats also, remember? ("Pork!") That didn't stop them from ending up with a deity.


IF the world gets remade, the Dark One would have a word in it.

This I agree with, but we don't know what that means yet.

[Larkspur]

They can always just make the new XP fodder species non-sentient; that would resolve the problem.

Actually, even if they somehow murder the Dark One or imprison him and prevent him from influencing the new world creation, it would be strongly in their interest to do this to prevent a repeat of this exact situation.

So if they're sensible he kind of wins even if he loses.

From Redcloak's standpoint, though, there's no solution that doesn't involve the Plan. Diplomacy? Tried by the Dark One- failed. Military intervention? Tried by the Dark One's pissed off followers after his assassination- failed. Polite negotiation with the gods? Tried by the Dark One- failed.* Homemaking- not a solution to the overall problem, tried by Right-Eye- Xykoned.

Until Xykon is killed he can't stop without risking enormous reprisals, and even then he has no incentive to.

* As far as we or Redclaok know, anyway, since none of us have the information to verify or refute the crayon account.

[tomandtish]

Unlikely. Since the gods cannot kill the Dark One (if they could and he had no supporters among the other gods) they would already have done so.

Actually, if I remember correctly, some of the gods did want to destroy the Dark One. However, some of the other gods (Tiamat springs to mind) felt that it was time for new blood.

So it certainly seems possible that they COULD destroy the DO if they all agreed to do so. However, since he did have some support, they were unable or unwilling to do so.

If he destroys the world, will he still have that support? Doubtful (but possible I suppose).

[factotum]

One important thing to remember here is that pretty much everything Redcloak told Xykon was information he'd got when he put on the Crimson Mantle. We don't actually know if it was accurate--for all we know the Dark One is playing some other game that he hasn't revealed to his cleric!

[Ancalagon]

yes they could, and would have a damn good reason for doing so since his cleric would of been the one who freed the snarl. (which i might add would almost certainly alianate every ally he might of made in the celestial realms, since even the most evil or chaotic god's start getting irritable when their lives are threatened). they wouldnt have to kill him, ganging up on him, temporarily sealing his own godly power away, and tossing him to a plane of existance occupied by the snarl would end the dark one's godhood faster then you can say "one shot kill"

Of course they "can" technically. But as we have seen before (in Start of Darkness) there might be policitical implications that prevent that. Yes, the other gods might be willing to let the Dark One get killed because he risked their lives and the entire creation, but I doubt even the evil gods want to open the door for "gods killing other gods".
I really doubt the issue "we just could kill" him will come on the table again for longer than a few sentences.


Creating another crap race would just result in them elevating their own deity, and the entire cycle would repeat. And goblins were made with low mental stats also, remember? ("Pork!") That didn't stop them from ending up with a deity.

I have not said I think that'd be a good idea. But I really think the gods might try it. What I said: they might try to reason "they are too stupid to worship anything, there won't be a new god". If that's a good and working idea or not is on another page.
Apart from that, the gods still DO have the problem with the clerics and they will have to find some way to solve that (an issue, as I want to add, that will ALSO present itself should Redcloak actually be successful with his plan!).

[RedCloakLives!]

The Gods (which includes the Dark One) can remake the world without the death-for-XP mechanism.

After all, it's not necessary. Killing things for the experience. Sheesh. A world built on crazy wacko psycho thrill-killing. Truly disturbing.

Why not reward other things, like playing with puppies and eating ice cream? Makes more sense!

The OOTS are defenders of the status quo, unjust and insane.

Red Cloak is working for change. Red Cloak! Hero for the Ages! :smallwink:

And Puppies! Ice Cream!

[David Argall]

I have been wondering of late whether RC might come to the conclusion that the destruction of the world by the snarl might not be the best solution.

I mean if he succeeds in controlling a gate, Xykon could have some real tricks up his sleeve and it might not go as planned with the dark one gaining control. And even if he did, it wouldnt be a 100% guarantee that the other gods would take well to being blackmailed.

It the world were destroyed OTOH -- it would be far "neater." The new goblins would get their fair share from the beginning and he could lead them as the first priest of the dark one on world 3. The elder gods wouldnt even know that the dark one was plotting against them.
We have a plan hatched by a god who has been scheming about this for longer than Redcloak has been alive, and presumably with a great deal more brain power as well. Redcloak needs a real good reason to think his judgement is superior to that of the god.
And on the face of it, having two shots is superior to having one. The dark one gets to bargain for a new deal, or take part in World 3.0. There are risks, but there are risks either way. [Redcloak destroys the world, and the gods kill the dark one as punishment, maybe.]
So there is little risk Redcloak is thinking of destroying the world as anything but plan B.

[rewinn]

The Gods (which includes the Dark One) can remake the world without the death-for-XP mechanism.

After all, it's not necessary. Killing things for the experience. Sheesh. A world built on crazy wacko psycho thrill-killing. Truly disturbing.

Why not reward other things, like playing with puppies and eating ice cream? Makes more sense!

The OOTS are defenders of the status quo, unjust and insane.

Red Cloak is working for change. Red Cloak! Hero for the Ages! :smallwink:

And Puppies! Ice Cream!Perhaps TDO would prefer a system in which one gains skill and ability by study and practice?

In the real world ... would this really work? :smallbiggrin:

[theinsulabot]

The Gods (which includes the Dark One) can remake the world without the death-for-XP mechanism.

After all, it's not necessary. Killing things for the experience. Sheesh. A world built on crazy wacko psycho thrill-killing. Truly disturbing.

Why not reward other things, like playing with puppies and eating ice cream? Makes more sense!

The OOTS are defenders of the status quo, unjust and insane.

Red Cloak is working for change. Red Cloak! Hero for the Ages! :smallwink:

And Puppies! Ice Cream!

i propose an alternative world in which you gain experiance by playing with ice cream and eating puppies