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Fortinbras
2009-06-25, 03:25 PM
I'm trying to build a perfect assassin for a 3.5 game. He should specialize in stealth (of course) and I like the idea of kukris for weapons. He needs to be able to nock out spellcasters. TOB is being used. Other than than I'm open to suggestions.

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 03:34 PM
Wizard20

Or...maybe...Abjurer3/MasterSpecialist10/Iot7V7.

Yea...that'll be nice...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-25, 04:25 PM
I'm trying to build a perfect assassin for a 3.5 game. He should specialize in stealth (of course) and I like the idea of kukris for weapons. He needs to be able to nock out spellcasters. TOB is being used. Other than than I'm open to suggestions.Wizard/Incantrix. Cast Invisibility(or similar), Silence, drop a couple Images to draw off guards, walk in, drop a metamagic'd Orb of Fire(Cold), walk out.

Note, any stages involving Walking can be replaced with appropriate Teleportation spells.

ErrantX
2009-06-25, 05:21 PM
I'm trying to build a perfect assassin for a 3.5 game. He should specialize in stealth (of course) and I like the idea of kukris for weapons. He needs to be able to nock out spellcasters. TOB is being used. Other than than I'm open to suggestions.

How nice that people ignore what you're asking for an immediately and always suggest wizard.

On that note, if you're TOB allowed, I'd suggest a swordsage focused on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. You'll have more than enough maneuvers to make that happen. You'll be fairly Dex and Wisdom based at that point, so I'd recomend the Shadow Blade feat to increase melee damage. Tiger Claw is especially helpful if you plan on two-weapon fighting with kukris, but I think you'd be better served with shortswords or regular daggers to use Shadow Blade. Tiger Claw will work either way, Shadow Blade is more particular.

As far as being to knock out spellcasters, there is always the Suel Arcanamach, another solid class. Unfortunately, the best anti-spellcaster generally is another spellcaster, but if you want to do it from the better-skilled-than-spelled type, I'd use Swordsage and consider multiclassing into Suel Arcanamach, but remember that it doesn't get maneuvers, and that can hurt you. Straight swordsage never hurt anyone (except the NPCs).

-X

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-25, 05:24 PM
How nice that people ignore what you're asking for an immediately and always suggest wizard.If you have a better way of getting through defenses than Invisibility and Teleport, or a better way of dealing damage in a surprise round than Orbs, please, tell us.

Spiryt
2009-06-25, 05:28 PM
If you have a better way of getting through defenses than Invisibility and Teleport, or a better way of dealing damage in a surprise round than Orbs, please, tell us.

It is not supposed to contest of optimisation. He wants a guy that kills his enemies with stealth&steel


He should specialize in stealth (of course) and I like the idea of kukris for weapons

So with a bit of decency, you could at least propose wizard build with some serious melee damage abuse :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-25, 05:30 PM
I'm trying to build a perfect assassin for a 3.5 game. He should specialize in stealth (of course) and I like the idea of kukris for weapons. He needs to be able to nock out spellcasters. TOB is being used. Other than than I'm open to suggestions.

Here's a build I made which was pretty handy for the job:
Rogue xx/Swordsage2 (split up)/Nightsong Enforcer1/Bloodclaw Master 2

In effect: TWF precision-based damage dealer. Deals hundreds of damage per round. Has wands of Gravebane and Golembane in Wand Sheaths in his paired Kukri (which are both Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand weapons), which have the Collision enhancement on them (flat +5 to damage), and Craven to further increase sneak attack damage.

Looses no sneak attack dice from multiclassing due to Assassin's Stance, although he also has Island of Blades to make flanking easier.

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 05:33 PM
If you have a better way of getting through defenses than Invisibility and Teleport, or a better way of dealing damage in a surprise round than Orbs, please, tell us.

+1

The best caster killer is another caster.

I'd also like to posit a MoMF build as an assassin. WS Ranger5/MoMF2/Warshaper4/NaturesWarrior1/MoMF+7...or something like that. Scout as a bird, get in as a squirell, kill em as a RAMPAGING GIANT!, and then get out. Also, spread rumers about angry teleporting giants and noone will ever have reasons to suspect you. Ever.

Regardless, if you want to build an assassin, I highly suggest you stay just about as far from the actual Assassin PrC as possible. Its bad. Really bad.

Oh, I just remembered another good Assassin build. Rogue or Spelltheif1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5. Swap out a couple levels of AT for Archmage if desired. Nearly full wizard casting, ok sneak attacks, more sneak attack damage summonable at will via Hunter's Eye, lots of spells for sneakin, mobility, assassinatin, and all that jazz. Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny) and a high Int keeps your vital skills up to augement your castable sneakiness (you can be invisible AND hiding since See Invisible and True Seeing can't pierce mundane hiding). Throw in a bit of Darkstalker from Lords of Madness and you'll be virtually undetectable, especially late in life when you get Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-25, 05:34 PM
Try to get hold of power attack, leap attack and frenzied beserker. Then get a ring of Invis and a custom item of silence. Then go do the sneaky thing followed by a Coup de over nine thousand! Much higher save than a death attack from the assassin class and a damn funny image to think of a guy that sneaks all the way into his targets bedroom and then leaps across the room screaming and smacks them with a greataxe.:smallamused:

herrhauptmann
2009-06-25, 05:43 PM
Feats: Blindfight, Magekiller, Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment.
Craven +1 to damage on a sneak attack per Character level. This multiplies on a crit,
Dragonfire strike (convert SA into elemental damage, with right feats it becomes able to SA undead)
PrC:
Occult slayer: Permanent nondetection, bonus to saves vs spells, bonus damage and attack vs casters. At will detect magic (auras only)
Witchslayer: Find possessed beings, smite possessed beings, Momentary Disjunction

Items:
-Mageslayer weapon, extra +2 enhancement, and +2d6 damage vs casters/invocation users
-Starmetal weapon, like adamant, but +1d6 vs outsiders on the prime
-Bracers of Murder: higher death attack DC, +d6's on your SA.
-Generally avoid things like flaming or frost on your weapons. You need extra +1's to hit, not extra d6's of random energy types.
-A +3 weapon (at least one) with a greater truedeath crystal. Now you can crit and SA undead. Or demolition crystal (vs constructs)
Revelation crystals, allows your party to find the invisible wizard if you hit him. You can find his square with a good listen check, and pierce magical concealment ignores the misschance of him being invisible. (But if he's invisible in a smoky room, you still get a misschance due to the smoke. But blindfight helps you there)



Seriously Keld, Tallkid. He's asking for an assassin. So give him things for an assassin. Why not just say "Druid 20, wildshape+natural spell, grapple wizards FTW!"

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 05:48 PM
Seriously Keld, Tallkid. He's asking for an assassin. So give him things for an assassin. Why not just say "Druid 20, wildshape+natural spell, grapple wizards FTW!"

If the Red Wizards of Thay sent an assassin after you, do you think he would actually bother stabbing you with a knife? Probably not. He would probably sear the flesh from your body. Or Polymorph you into a mouse and feed you to his familar. Or drop a flaming mountain on your head. Or something.

Assassin is a PrC, and a bad one at that. Its also a concept, and in a fantasy world, that concept need not be limited to invoking a stabbity death upon your enemies. Dead is dead, and the contract if fulfilled.

EDIT:
And the OP wanted a "perfect" assassin. A character with actual levels in Assassin is hardly "perfect"

lsfreak
2009-06-25, 05:55 PM
Herrhauptmann, your build still does nothing to locate or get close to the wizard, just keeps you alive long enough to flail about helplessly for a few rounds. As is often pointed out, the three parts of killing a wizard are finding the wizard, surviving the wizard's attacks, and killing the wizard. A melee build is ONLY really capable of the middle, and by far the easiest, one; it still can't find them nor can it kill them.

ErrantX
2009-06-25, 06:06 PM
That's why I recommended Suel Arcanamach, it has a good mix of spells to be able to get in and kill a wizard. That's what they're designed to do. Mix that up with some swordsage and enjoy.

-X

HamHam
2009-06-25, 06:11 PM
Whisper Gnome with Silencing Strike. Casting Silence on people when you hit them with no save is not only good for keeping the guard quiet while you finish murdering him, but also messing with most casters.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-25, 06:26 PM
If the Red Wizards of Thay sent an assassin after you, do you think he would actually bother stabbing you with a knife? Probably not. He would probably sear the flesh from your body. Or Polymorph you into a mouse and feed you to his familar. Or drop a flaming mountain on your head. Or something.
Assassin is a PrC, and a bad one at that. Its also a concept, and in a fantasy world, that concept need not be limited to invoking a stabbity death upon your enemies. Dead is dead, and the contract if fulfilled.
EDIT:
And the OP wanted a "perfect" assassin. A character with actual levels in Assassin is hardly "perfect"

At what point did I actually recommend he take Assassin, Avenger, BlackFlameZealot, or a half dozen other death attack PrC's?
And yes, I would actually expect Thay to send a melee assassin against me, because it's a freakin assassin, whether it's got levels in the PrC or not! Because that's how the adventures are written.
Finally, he hasn't specified what world this is in. Or any houserules. It could easily be Ravenloft or Eberron, neither of which as a Red Wizard of Thay.

He asked for stuff for an assassin character, and I gave him something for it. I'd have recommended stuff for ToB, but I haven't played a ToB character, so I left that alone.


three parts of killing a wizard are finding the wizard, surviving the wizard's attacks, and killing the wizard.
Remember, he's likely to be in a party. So why don't you give him the advice everyone's given me before? "Have the party wizard cast a spell on you for it" By the time you guys are done with the melee and rogue builds, they've either become casters, or are forcing the party caster to spend half his daily spells in buffing everyone else at the start of combat.


Again, he's asked for things for an assassin class, so I've suggested it, if I had a link to the rogue handbooks I'd post those too.
If he asks for a meatshield, or an archer, I'll post what I've got on that. If he asks for a monk, I'll write something about a monk, other than just "monks suck, play wizard," same thing if he asks for a blaster sorcerer.

Fortinbras
2009-06-25, 06:40 PM
Actually this guy is supposed to work alone. Some spellcasting is fine but I also want use of stealth skills and kukris.

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 06:56 PM
Probably best would be something like this:

Spellthief1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5
1 Two Weapon Fighting
H Able Learner
2 Improved Init (swap from Scribe Scroll with Martial Wizard ACF)
3 Extend Spell
6 Master Spellthief
9 Greater TWF
12 Persist Spell
15 Improved TWF
18 Arcane Strike

You'll have spells as a 19th level wizard, with a CL of 20 for non-Divinations, and 23 for Divinations. Then, you Persist Hunter's Eye (Ranger2 leared from Unseen Seer) and attack from Improved or Superior Invisibility for lots of Sneak Attack damage, including stealing spells which you can use to power your own arcane spells. You also pick up Divine Insight (Clr2) from Unseen Seer, allowing you to really nail that one skill check you need to bluff your way into the Kings bedroom or whatnot.

Get a pair of +1 Keen Spellstoring Bloodstone Kukiri's and load them up with a pair of Vampiric Touches each. Your initial strike will do like, 90d6 damage between your 5ish attacks and your 4ish spells that are all being discharged.

Fortinbras
2009-06-25, 07:08 PM
That's what I'm talking about. What book is unseen seer in?

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 07:11 PM
Complete Mage (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Unseen+Seer)

Fortinbras
2009-06-25, 07:15 PM
Is there any way to work a similar build using something else then?

Night Monkey
2009-06-25, 07:25 PM
Ghost template?

ErrantX
2009-06-25, 07:25 PM
Either more Arcane Trickster and/or some Daggerspell Mage, but that restricts your alignment some. Without Complete Mage this is a little harder. Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel... That's what I've got off the top of my head without Unseen Seer. Good build, Keld. :smallbiggrin:

-X

Fortinbras
2009-06-25, 07:43 PM
what about ghostfaced killer?

Curmudgeon
2009-06-25, 07:47 PM
I dislike the Wizard vs. Wizard approach. For instance, See Invisibility is just too common, so attacking while invisible isn't reliable. Conversely, mundane stealth can only be countered by high Spot scores, which a Wizard is unlikely to have. So one of the good Hide in Plain Sight versions is ideal. Assassin and Shadowdancer get the good Supernatural HiPS. But by far the best HiPS is that of the Eye of Lolth (Drow of the Underdark), because it functions identially to the Supernatural one but is Extraordinary. Add Antimagic Field and partay!

Keld Denar
2009-06-25, 08:10 PM
I dislike the Wizard vs. Wizard approach. For instance, See Invisibility is just too common, so attacking while invisible isn't reliable. Conversely, mundane stealth can only be countered by high Spot scores, which a Wizard is unlikely to have.

My suggestion was to do both. That way, you can get around the Druids with the massive Spot checks, and the wizards with the constant Divination. Too bad with the Unseen Seer though. That class is really really really awesomely good.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-25, 10:57 PM
Rogue/Wizard/Daggerspell Mage
Spells: Daggerspell Stance, Cloud of Knives, Whirling Blade.

Maerok
2009-06-25, 11:26 PM
How nice that people ignore what you're asking for an immediately and always suggest wizard.

On that note, if you're TOB allowed, I'd suggest a swordsage focused on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. You'll have more than enough maneuvers to make that happen. You'll be fairly Dex and Wisdom based at that point, so I'd recomend the Shadow Blade feat to increase melee damage. Tiger Claw is especially helpful if you plan on two-weapon fighting with kukris, but I think you'd be better served with shortswords or regular daggers to use Shadow Blade. Tiger Claw will work either way, Shadow Blade is more particular.

Wizards = Cheese.

ToB = Butter, because everyone wants to spread it on everything.

---

Is Black Flame Zealot any good as an assassin? It'll help keep dead people dead with the capstone ability.

Melamoto
2009-06-26, 07:45 AM
There are plenty of builds for assassinating people, yet surprisingly few melee ones.
Even if it's not optimal, the Black Flame Zealot is the only class which can truly "Assassinate" well, due to it's capstone ability. Not much point in killing someone if they're just going to be brought back to life faster than you can say "reduced impact of NPC mortality". It's also probably not too hard to build up Death Attack to a DC that your opponent will not pass.
If you're not going for any targets that would be resurrected, try being a poison using class with sneak attack. Use Disembowling Strike and high Con damage poisons with high saves, use the 2 poison feats from Complete Scoundrel as well. You could also go for a dip in Suel Arcanamach for effectiveness against casters and the ability to dispel defensive buffs. Either that or just go for an activated Antimagic Field item just before you attack, so ALL of their magical defences are null and void. While you? You still have your massive Con damage.
(For some numeric values; giving up a 4d6 sneak attack and using Black Lotus extract that you made, that means 3d6+1d4+3 Con damage for an average of 16)

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-26, 08:13 AM
I'd second the suggestions about some gish rougueish-mageish*.

Mostly for what Curmdgeon said. I wonder if is possible a wisper gnome, as said above, I like the idea of silence. Remember the evergreen antimagic torc (acrivate it only when you are sure, or it means being "orbed" by the wizard).

Maybe, a combination of anti-casting ambush feats or stuns, and some utility spell added to high climb, move silently, hide..

Can be useful the Garrote from song and silence (as well dragon compenidium)? You can strangulate enemies whit it, maybe after you activated the torc.

Just few ideas..

EDIT: if you like the poison ideas, there are 3 ambush feats in DotU and one in DM lowering the saves or raising the poison DC.

EDIT2: DMagaz, too, Lacerate, another ambush feat that disables enemies limb, Powerful, but a gish is unlikely to take it because is a lot fighter/rogue due his laundry list prereqs..


*I know, too many -ish.

namo
2009-06-26, 08:18 AM
If you can use LA buyoff, Lords of Madness has the Shadow template (LA +2) which grants almost-permanent total concealment (Tome of Magic has the Dark template for LA +1, really good as well). I'd go with Changeling because it makes infiltrating places a lot easier. And Swordsage for the class - with a healthy dose of Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Telonius
2009-06-26, 09:18 AM
It is not supposed to contest of optimisation. He wants a guy that kills his enemies with stealth&steel


LN
Clr5/CInq1/Rog1/Black Flame ZealotX

You will be an ideal assassin. Nobody will expect you. Remember, your chief weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency.

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-26, 09:19 AM
You will be an ideal assassin. Nobody will expect you. Remember, your chief weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency.

And the comfortable couch. Remember the comfortable couch.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 09:46 AM
You will be an ideal assassin. Nobody will expect you. Remember, your chief weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE BLACK FLAME ZEALOT INQUISITION! NOBODY!

Fortinbras
2009-06-26, 02:38 PM
What is this CInq1

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 03:05 PM
Church Inquisitor, a PrC in Complete Divine.

notated to indicate that you should take 1 level of it.

OMG PONIES
2009-06-26, 03:09 PM
I'd also like to posit a MoMF build as an assassin. WS Ranger5/MoMF2/Warshaper4/NaturesWarrior1/MoMF+7...or something like that. Scout as a bird, get in as a squirell, kill em as a RAMPAGING GIANT!, and then get out. Also, spread rumers about angry teleporting giants and noone will ever have reasons to suspect you. Ever.

+1 for style.

Chronos
2009-06-26, 04:22 PM
A trick I stumbled across a while ago is to combine the spell Cursed Weapon (Spell Compendium) with the feat Arterial Strike (Complete Warrior). The feat means that the creature you hit continues to lose one HP per round until the subject receives magical healing or first aid, and the spell means that any creature hit by the weapon can't receive magical healing or first aid until they get a Remove Curse. So basically, if you hit someone, they've got a few minutes to get a Remove Curse, or they die. And of course you're watching them from the shadows meanwhile, so if they do get a Remove Curse, you just hit them again (the spell's duration is longer than the time it'll take most things to bleed to death).

By default, the spell only shows up on the Assassin list, but there are a few ways around that if you don't want actual Assassin levels: You could take a PrC like Fiendblooded to add it to some other class's spell list, or emulate it with Chameleon's spellcasting, or get a scroll/wand/eternal wand and UMD it.


Another couple of things you'll want: Since you're going with kukris anyway, things that trigger on critical hits are good. The Book of Exalted Deeds has a nifty +1 weapon property that deals something like 1d6+2 strength damage on every critical hit, which can immobilize a lot of things pretty quickly. And the Telling Blow feat (can't remember where it's from) will trigger Sneak Attack whenever you make a crit, even if you're not flanking or attacking a flatfooted foe. There's also a dirty trick where you take the Lightning Mace feat (Complete Warrior, I think) and put the Aptitude property on your kukris, which lets them benefit from feats intended for other weapon types, with the result that you get a free attack whenever you threaten a critical (even if you don't confirm), which will be very often with keen kukris.

Fortinbras
2009-06-26, 04:52 PM
This is looking good, thanks a lot guys. Now one other thing, how about killing rouges.

TheThan
2009-06-26, 05:14 PM
The hard part about killing spellcasters is getting through their ridiculous defenses. You need to be able to defeat scrying (and other ways of detection), then you need to get through flying, etherealness and other ways of outright avoiding attacks. If you manage to get through both of those then you have to get through other “always up” defensive spells they may already have (stoneskin, mage armor etc). After that you must get the initiative in the surprise round, if you manage that feat, then you need to one-shot him or otherwise incapacitate him so he can’t start slinging spells around. If he survives then he’s either going to flee (via Teleport or disappear into some form of extra dimensional hideyhole), or turn and smash the living crap out of you with magic.

I’m not sure a pure rouge has the straight damage potential to drop a wizard, He’s got the sneaking skills to get close, but he still needs is the ability to get through the wizard’s defenses. In order to do that, you need gear, lots and lots of gear. Really it depends on a lot of factors, hit points, critical hits, passive magic defense etc. But for gear, here’s what I would get:


Head slot: hat of disguise
Eye slot: goggles of the nigh
Neck slot: Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location
Torso slot: studded leather of greater shadow or greater silent moves
Belt slot: belt of dwarvenkind or belt of Giant strength
Shoulder slot: Cape of the Mountebank or Cloak of Etherealness
Forearm slot: nothing appropriate here?
Hand slot: gloves of dexterity
Ring slot 1: ring of freedom of movement
Ring slot 2: Ring of invisibility
Feet slot: winged boots


Other gear:
Rod of absorption
Kukri: ghost touch or vorpal enhancements
Scroll of mage’s disjunction
Scroll of power word kill
Scroll of slay living
Scroll of dispel magic
Gem of true seeing


I would love to find a way to “see” enemy hit points, useful so you know how badly you hurt him, also useful for scrolls of power word kill or a slay living. I’m sure there is one, but I don’t know it.

HP McLuvin
2009-06-26, 05:16 PM
And the comfortable couch. Remember the comfortable couch.*Ahem* that's the comfy chair...please do not confuse Monty Python with a children's television program. :smallwink:

ErrantX
2009-06-26, 05:28 PM
I would love to find a way to “see” enemy hit points, useful so you know how badly you hurt him, also useful for scrolls of power word kill or a slay living. I’m sure there is one, but I don’t know it.

This just made me think of Death Note and the Shinigami eyes.

-X

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-26, 05:53 PM
I would love to find a way to “see” enemy hit points, useful so you know how badly you hurt him, also useful for scrolls of power word kill or a slay living. I’m sure there is one, but I don’t know it.

How about making one (thanks to Keld Denar for input on level)...

Greater Deathwatch
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: 1 round /level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Using the foul sight granted by the powers of unlife, you can determine the exact condition of creatures near death within the spell’s range. You instantly know whether each creature within the area is dead, alive, undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct). In addition for each living or undead creature you know it's current hit point total.

Greater Deathwatch sees through any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death.

Material Component

An ointment for the eyes that costs 2500 gp.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 06:06 PM
Hardly worth a 9th level spell. Deathwatch regular is 2nd, I wouldn't put Greater anywhere above 5th.

I'd also take the freakin [Evil] tag off both of them...redonkulous....

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-26, 06:08 PM
Hardly worth a 9th level spell. Deathwatch regular is 2nd, I wouldn't put Greater anywhere about 5th.

I'd also take the freakin [Evil] tag off both of them...redonkulous....

OK. I'll take your advice on the level...wasn't sure how to calculate the meta-game benefit.

Chronos
2009-06-26, 10:49 PM
I've also heard ideas for a fighter feat, or even a class feature, that would do the same thing.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-26, 11:30 PM
I've also heard ideas for a fighter feat, or even a class feature, that would do the same thing.

Hmm...how about

Deathwatcher [General]
Prerequisites
Wis 13. Base attack bonus +3.

Benefit
Using your fighting skills you can determine the condition on one creature within 30 feet. You know whether the creature is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct).

Knowing the condition of the creature is a free action but you can only know the condition of one creature per round.

Special
The feat lets you see through any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death.


Deathclocker [General]
Prerequisites
Wis 13. Deathwatcher. Base attack bonus +9.

Benefit
Using your fighting skills you can determine the condition on one creature within 30 feet. You know whether the creature is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct).

In addition for each living or undead creature you know its current hit point total.

Knowing the condition of the creature is a free action but you can only know the condition of one creature per round.

Special
The feat lets you see through any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death.