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Heliomance
2009-06-26, 04:03 AM
A friend of mine is currently creating a campaign world, and so he doesn't have to deal with the endless balance problems 3.5 has, he's limiting the available classes to the four homebrew ones he's made. So far it seems to be coming along quite well, but there's one thing I'm not sure about - the primary damage dealing class is reliant on Sneak Attack. Is this okay? He's said that he doesn't want high strength characters running around, because by the fluff of the setting anyone with really high strength would have been enlisted into the army and would be dead by this point, the country it's set in having just lost a war. What are your thoughts on this?

Omegonthesane
2009-06-26, 04:09 AM
Clearly he's never heard of deserting from the army, which many, many people would do if they were losing the war so horribly that EVERY SINGLE ENLISTED SOLDIER DIED.

If he isn't willing to concede that 1) you can be on the losing side of a war and not die, just ask German veterans of the two world wars; or 2) you are not executed for desertion if you are not caught, then fine, just tell him that you're leaving the game the moment something is immune to Sneak Attack.

Unless this homebrew class could actually hold its own against mainstream martial classes without Sneak Attack... in which case, go wild.

paddyfool
2009-06-26, 04:32 AM
He's said that he doesn't want high strength characters running around, because by the fluff of the setting anyone with really high strength would have been enlisted into the army and would be dead by this point, the country it's set in having just lost a war.

To have lost a war so completely that all martial types died? What happened, did the victors conquer this country and put every able-bodied man or woman to the sword? Even if this or something equally selectively-devastating happened (every fighting man/woman being wiped out by an epic spell, perhaps), the following backgrounds could still have enabled survival:

- Being from a neutral country
- Having been regarded as "suspect" (e.g. had family from the opposing country), and not allowed to enlist
- Sickness/injury, that either the character later recovered from or was healed of.
- A friend on the opposing side who protected them after they were taken prisoner
- Being a particularly "useful" prisoner
- Successfully hiding (could fit with a resistance-fighter background if this suited the war in question, or the desertion suggestion)

And if it was less devastating than this, you could add the following further possible backgrounds for a surviving martial type:

- Being politically connected
- Having been too young to fight at the time of the war
- Having been a drill sergeant or similar in a training camp (if a mid to high-level campaign) and missed much of the direct action
- Being of the wrong gender (if they only enlisted men)

The important thing, however, seems to be that the DM in question simply wants to try a game with no effective meatshields. If that's the case, well, you'll just have to roll with it or bow out.

Vaynor
2009-06-26, 04:41 AM
I think your friend is confusing a military loss with genocide.

Heliomance
2009-06-26, 04:43 AM
As for being immune to sneak attack, it's a low-magic human only setting so it's unlikely to happen. There'll be the odd demon and such at high level play, but the vast majority of the enemies'll be humans with class levels. I'm just a little worried about the situation nature of sneak attack.

And yes, hat's a very good point about there still being martial types left - the war was because this country has a very strong economy and was starting to get its hands on magic items, and the non-magic but highly martial country next door wanted a piece of that, so they effectively staged a country-scale coup d'etat, took over the country, but left the economic structure as intact as humanly possible.

sigurd
2009-06-26, 07:39 AM
Does his system just not have strength damage or martial types or is he just nerfing them for players.


A combat system that relied on sneak attack for extra damage might be interesting. Does he have goliaths, giants, golems, etc....? Do his skeleton warriors deal damage based on a martial class?


Was this war fought without standard fighters\warriors\paladins\barbarians etc...?

Doesn't sound like you're beyond "the endless balance problems 3.5 has."

Sigurd

Heliomance
2009-06-26, 07:56 AM
Opponents I think will largely be the soldiers of the enemy nation occupying the city - it's a very urban campaign, set in an Arabia-esque country. As I said, nearly exclusively human, though some of the enemies will be strength-based, yes. He's building some of them as Bull-rushers to spoil flanking setups, he want to encourage players to think very much outside the box. As an example, in one of the test games we've been running, I was playing the skillmonkey class. At that point he hadn't given them any combat viability, but I did have an obscene hide check, a Cloak of Displacement, and a lot of rope, so I just hid and started tying people's legs together.

Calmar
2009-06-26, 09:15 AM
Clearly he's never heard of deserting from the army, which many, many people would do if they were losing the war so horribly that EVERY SINGLE ENLISTED SOLDIER DIED.

If he isn't willing to concede that 1) you can be on the losing side of a war and not die, just ask German veterans of the two world wars [...]
Very true.
Also, they can tell that in a state that is going to fight till the last breath, everyone who is more or less able to fight is conscripted, be it young boys, or old men. Does not help much, though.

Maybe we should know more about this nation, where everyone is conscripted, and where every soldier dies.
I'd assume, they'd simply draw everyone in the army. After all, no one knows your Str score and no government would care, if you wield your spear with high efficiency, or if you can barely hold it... :smalltongue:

Heliomance
2009-06-27, 09:15 PM
Hmm, spoken to the guy, and apparently the reason there are no particularly strong men about is because they were all enlisted into the Sultan's Guard pre-war. The war itself was more of a precision strike, executed so fast that the army proper didn't have time to muster. The Sultan's Guard was wiped out to a man, and the invaders were in power before a bigger army could be raised.

Jane_Smith
2009-06-27, 09:23 PM
Hun, - strong people arnt the only ones enlisted into wars... smart, fast, dumb morons who can only pick their noses, it doesnt matter.

Rogues = Taken into military for specialists, scouts, spys, etc.

Fighters = Fodder.

Barbarians = Shock Troopers.

Wizards/Scholars/Smartasses = Strategists, warmages, information dealers, propaganda, etc.

Rangers = Guerrilla Warfare bishz.

Nough said. If hes going to rip out strength based just cause of "oh their all dead" then you might as well mark out "Everyone" as dead, or your enemy is that stupid they would only target 'muscled' people, in which case HOW IN THE 9 HELLS DID THE CONQUER YOUR COUNTRY?!

Heliomance
2009-06-27, 09:46 PM
As I said, precision strike took out the Sultan's personal guard, which is where all the strong people were, happened fast enough that the army proper never got involved.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-06-27, 09:49 PM
Yeah. . . the sly agile types are going to be recruited too. Any war that wipes out all your able-bodied men is a strange one.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-27, 10:00 PM
Your DM either has a weird grudge against characters with high strength, or tries to create a certain flavour to his game but does so in a really stupid way. I mean, all the strong men were enlisted into the Sultan's Guard, no exceptions? They only looked at who is strong, not who is a potentially good soldier?

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/AwXomeMan/morbo.jpg
Conscription War Logic does not work that way!

Thank you Morbo.

Omegonthesane
2009-06-28, 08:33 AM
As I said, precision strike took out the Sultan's personal guard, which is where all the strong people were, happened fast enough that the army proper never got involved.

I'm going to jump to the conclusion that the Sultan's Guard is a specific legion, not the whole army complete with support staff. In which case...

First. What about all the strong women and children who weren't conscripted? Unless the setting is meant to be really gritty, child soldiers are not a really likely option, especially given this is the age of melee and children have lower physical stats than adults.

Second. What about people who were in no state to fight despite their strength? You can't be a soldier with a broken leg, even though it isn't a permanent injury.

Third. What about people who deserted the Sultan's Guard, or hid in the concealed cellar at conscription time? I doubt the record men come often enough that you can't simply hide your eldest son in the cellar so you aren't taxed for him.

Fourth. What about the invader's men? If absolutely nothing else you could say "I'm playing someone who was an enemy soldier in the war, give me a martial class please".

Heliomance
2009-06-28, 08:52 AM
The whole point of the campaign is playing La Resistance - an enemy soldier or deserter is unlikely to be doing that. Also, it happened recently enough that children/people with broken legs will still be children/have broken legs.

TengYt
2009-06-28, 08:54 AM
Why not? A deserter makes sense to be part of a resistance movement. After seeing their country fall and every able bodied person seemingly massacred, they may feel guilty for deserting and decide to do something to help fight back.

Omegonthesane
2009-06-28, 09:26 AM
Didn't realise you were La Resistance. OK, enemy soldiers are unlikely PCs unless REALLY well bribed, but deserters are most definitely workable enough to be PCs. As are strong men who bluffed the recruiters into not taking them. And probably single parents - I wouldn't fight for any power that would rather orphan children than have one less soldier.

Basically, saying "no" to a type of character build is, fundamentally, doing it wrong. Like running a game where all magic comes from the Devil and is evil - no one can play a heroic blaster-master, ever, which is going to put me off if I feel like making that build that day. Ideally you think "how can I put this in without breaking the game" not "NO TOUCHY WITH BARGE POLE!".

Which brings me onto... Five. Soldiers of nations allied to the Sultan's realm and at war with its invaders, sent to assist in training and operations for La Resistance. AFAIK this happened in WW2. 'Normal' martial class needed.

Basically, the only completely plausible 'explanation' for this DM's total ban on martial classes is that he hates all martial classes for some bizarre reason.