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Zergrusheddie
2009-06-26, 05:03 AM
What sort of Maneuvers would a 2-handed using Warblade use? It seems like a lot of the White Raven ones would be useful for increasing defense something that is missing at low level without a shield. Looking through the Stone Dragon ones, I don't really see anything so fantastic as they are all standard action and with Haste and extra swings from BAB, it seems like Power Attacking with multiple swings is better than 1 Power Attack + 5d6. Any suggestions?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-26, 05:26 AM
I'd focus mostly on Iron Heart, with some Diamond Mind and White Raven to fill in the gaps, and Tiger Claw for the Mongoose boosts. Steel Wind is one of the best maneuvers in the book, Mithral Tornado is also decent, and there are plenty of boosts and counters that will be useful throughout your career. You only need one to three strikes that you plan on using a lot, and when all of them are spent just full attack and recover everything. For your other maneuvers get whatever boosts or counters you think you'd want to keep readied, and remember that those too can be recovered as often and easily as your strikes.

Eldariel
2009-06-26, 05:37 AM
Two-Handed Warblade really doesn't need to be built in any specific way; the only thing to keep in mind is that the TWF-focused maneuvers of Tiger Claw are of less use (however, Wolf Fang Strike specifically allows unarmed strike as secondary and negates the penalties so you'll get that back, and Two-Handed Fighter likes 1x Extra Attack from Dancing Mongoose just as much as a Two-Weapon Fighter likes the 2x).

Really, the only things that become weaker are attacks that determine their own damage (e.g. Insightful Strike + Greater Insightful Strike [Diamond Mind; Roll Concentration for damage]) and ones that add damage based on the number of attacks you make/add damage to each attack (Warblade doesn't even get much; Blood in the Water, Punishing Stance, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Leading the Charge, maybe few others), and it's worth noting that both, Punishing Stance and Leading the Charge are still plenty good for two-handers. Since two-handers tend naturally towards Charging, especially the latter is amazing.


But yeah, Tiger Claw has solid offensive options; especially early on, stuff like Rabid Wolf Strike is awesome for your offense, since that +4 to hit allows for full Power Attack without significantly taxing your accuracy, and the extra damage doesn't hurt either.

As I touched above, Two-Handers tend towards Charging, making White Raven's Charge-maneuvers incredible. Also, if you have Pounce, make sure to check out Bounding Assault from Diamond Mind 'cause being able to make two move actions and then full attack is just awesome (unlike normal chance, you can move through any kind of terrain and don't even need line of effect at the start of the maneuver; allows attacking just about anyone on the battlefield in one turn provided you can match their modes of movement).


Stone Dragon and Iron Heart also have fine attacks, and for Two-Handers, any Str-based save maneuvers are great as Two-Handers tend to have immense Str, making them almost autofails for opponent (Dazing Strike to just plain knock 'em out for a turn, for example).

Really, just pick an assortment of defensive maneuvers (Wall of Blades is a must 'cause you have kickass attack bonus, but your AC might be lackluster, especially after charging), but other than that, flavor to taste. If you want a charger, go White Raven. If you want jump-attacks and Barbarianish maneuvers in general, go Tiger Claw. If you especially wanna break things and overcome DR, Stone Dragon is for you.

And if you want Fighterish maneuvers for attacking multiple opponents, debuffing opponents with strikes and so on, go Iron Heart. Diamond Mind also has an array of great moves; there are only few specific ones that don't work that well while two-handing and those are really easy to tell apart.


Really, this is the awesome of ToB; there are very few "bad" options, and most builds are perfectly workable. The only thing to keep an eye on is the Boost/Counter/Strike mix so you'll have as few wasted actions as possible, and can maintain versatility and ability to act from as many positions as possible (and defend against as many types of attacks as possible).

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-26, 06:07 AM
I agree with Biff, but I'd expand upon the idea.

Diamond Mind is excellent because of the Nightmare Blade maneuvers, which pretty much allows you to double or even quadruple your attack eventually. This mingles well with the Power Attack benefit, since it pretty much makes the damage scale every two turns. This is while you are in range of the attacker, although it begs to point that you need a really good attack bonus to hit.

Emerald Razor is the complete opposite. When you REALLY need to hit, it's golden. Much too golden. Your attack will be low, but every two turns you'll be dealing solid damage to opponents with doubled Power Attack + 1.5x STR with the certainty that you'll actually hit.

Diamond Mind also has the save defenses, which are essential for every character. Start with the one you have the weakest (probably Will, which means Moment of Perfect Mind), and replace once you reach level 16 and Diamond Defense. This means you really need to max Constitution to make it worthwhile.

On the area of Iron Heart, the Iron Heart (X) maneuvers are golden. Iron Heart Surge is excellent for when you're suffering of a malady, and you need to scoff away from it. Iron Heart Endurance makes you more resilient because of the HP healing you get. Iron Heart Focus is more than excellent, because it's a counter (read: immediate action) that solves a bad roll when you most need it. Coupled with Moment of Perfect Mind, and later with Diamond Defense, you're good with saves.

Mithral Tornado (and then Adamantine Tornado) is Whirlwind Attack on steroids. You make one, then two, attacks on all opponents, and you get a bonus to attack rolls on the attacks. This is when you're surrounded, so you need something to make sure you have it on the proper moment (like Adaptive Style)

Finishing Strike is abusive. Since you're already going for huge damage, and you probably found a way to work around the loss of BAB, you'll be capable of dealing up to 14d6 of damage along your regular Power Attack damage on an opponent with half its full normal HP. Since you can recharge it on each turn, it really stacks up the damage very nicely.

Steel Wind is great for the first levels, but later on, it loses some of its shine. Mostly, you'll probably want to replace it for Mithral Tornado once you have the chance.

If you find a really hilarious way to lower the character's AC and increase your own, Avalanche of Blades. It's not cost-effective, but if somehow you can connect each strike, you can use Power Attack over, and over, and over again.

Tiger Claw, ironically, works much better for THF Warblades than for TWF Warblades. The Mongoose boosts are decent, but nothing so spectacular since those prize extra attacks (in this sense, they benefit more TWF attackers who find ways over their loss of AB). Pouncing Charge, however, is your key move here. It's easy to get, easy to learn, and it's the cheapest way to get a Pounce attack, which means "full attack on a charge" and "I can use Leap Attack to triple my Power Attack and strike a lot of times". In this case, the Mongoose maneuvers really shine because they add to the attacks. If the character survives, you'll lose a bit of input, but you'll have the other maneuvers up there working in case you need them.

The Rabid Animal Strikes are good for adding extra damage AND compensating for the loss of attack bonus. The Leap-extra damage moves also benefit the Leap Attack builds, since you'll be making good use of the Jump skill that you need for Leap Attack anyways.

As for White Raven, the moves are mostly buffs that grant you advantage when other melee characters are around. I particularly don't see much advantage on taking WR maneuvers aside from the truly effective ones (WR Tactics, Order Forged from Chaos, WR Hammer if you can handle it). However, at the moment you charge, you can simply go for Leading the Charge for extra damage based on your initiator level, which adds eventually another +20 to attack to the blow. With Pouncing Charge, that's +20 for every blow. The best part is, it's a 1st level stance so it always has its uses.

The only reason you'd actually use Stone Dragon moves is to dent DR and hardness on characters. Stone Dragon is best for Crusaders who get a lot of tanking maneuvers from it. The most useful maneuver, one you can get without even entering into Stone Dragon maneuvers, is Mountain Tombstone Strike which is golden because it directly strikes Constitution, no save or anything. This is excellent when your pals need the opponent to have a tad less Fortitude, and a tad less HP. I'd say Giant's Stance is great to have as well, but it's only a mere size increase in damage; nothing so spectacular.

I might be missing something, but this is the most general laydown of the maneuvers. Again, as Biff says, choose a few maneuvers to which you're comfortable with, and work out with them, choosing boosts and counters. I'd also say that you should get Adaptive Style as soon as possible, since the feat is excellent to change your tactics. It makes your choice of maneuvers ever more important, and it really makes you adaptable to circumstances.

Eldariel
2009-06-26, 06:34 AM
With regards to what Oskar said, I'd like to point out that if the Barbarian-dip for Pounce is game, the White Raven charges become immensely useful and Pouncing Charge equally less so.

Also, they ignore AoOs, so having at least one of them is almost a must; sometimes you just need to charge that Hydra and you'd rather not eat up 12 AoOs in doing so. Of course, White Raven gets better, the more martial allies you have.


And Stone Dragon has a few handy things; there's Mountain Hammer which everyone should have for breaking things, then there's Stone Bones, which is a very useful fallback plan when you run into trippers/grapplers/swallowers/dungeoncrashers or in general, any monster that uses one of the non-standard forms of offense and can expect to pull it off on you; while you have high Str, chances are a focused such build's Str is at least equally high, and they have +X from feats/size/whatever.

It also has Con-damage maneuvers (really, the ability to kill people through things other than straight damage is never a bad thing to have), some handy maneuvers that enable some of the PHB maneuvers (Charging Minotaur, Boulder Roll and such if Bull Rush/Overrun/whatever is going to be a part of your repertoire) and few handy action-denying strikes (more useful against guys really resilient to normal damage, or with Elusive Target or whatever).


But yeah, Stone Dragon has a bunch of decent alternatives so while a Stone Dragon-focused Warblade is not optimal (especially since it lacks multipliers for Two-Handers), it's definitely decent.

woodenbandman
2009-06-26, 09:52 AM
I disagree that a twf warblade gets less out of Tiger Claw than a thw warblade. A twf warblade has stormguard warrior (no questions), and they also have Blood in the Water. Blood in the Water + 2 keen kukri + Bloodclaw Master + Power Attack = a lot of hurt. Raging mongoose adds 4 attacks for Stormguard warrior, which can add up to an extra 80 or so damage in a round. TWF warblades REALLY like Time Stands Still, though.

Keld Denar
2009-06-26, 10:06 AM
As always, a bit of diversification would be prudent. The best strikes are the ones that either do more damage than standard (like Finishing Strike), give you multiple attacks (Steel Wind/Mithril Tornado), inflict status effects (WHITE RAVEN HAMMER!!!!! Many Stone Dragon strikes), or give you pretty rediculous single hit damage (Emerald Razor). Its good to have 1-2 strikes readied at any given time at low levels, and 2-4 strikes at mid-high levels. Mix in a good blend of boosts, especially the ones that don't mess up your full attacks, things like Xing Mongooses, Sudden Leap, and similar. That way, most of the time, you'll have a lot of different options. You can charge if your opponent doesn't have a reach advantage on you, you can tumble + strike if your opponent DOES have a reach advantage on you, you can boost and full attack if you are already in melee range, or you can forgo a bit of damage to do a strike to inflicts a status effect if it would be strategically advantageous. The best thing about ToB is options, and diversifying your maneuver types keeps you up to your neck in options at any given round in any given encounter.

EDIT:

I disagree that a twf warblade gets less out of Tiger Claw than a thw warblade. A twf warblade has stormguard warrior (no questions), and they also have Blood in the Water. Blood in the Water + 2 keen kukri + Bloodclaw Master + Power Attack = a lot of hurt.

You can't power attack with a Kukri, its a light weapon. Even with Bloodclaw Master, you can't PA with a kukri. Claws of the Beast only gives you full +str bonus with your offhand. It does not change the fact that both your offhand and main hand are light weapons and can't be PAed with.

Also, very little in Tiger Claw actually supports TWF that well. Xing Mongooses do, and a couple of strikes kinda do, and the Bloodclaw Master PrC does, but really, you can use Tiger Claw just as effectively 2handed as you can TWFing, despite it being the "TWFing" school. Shadow Hand benefits TWFing more than Tiger Claw, IMO.