Roy's Level?

[Sergeantbrother]

Roy has been out of action for a long time. Have the other members of the party gained many levels from all of their misadventures while Roy has been dead? Might Roy now be a significantly lower level than the other members of Order of the Stick?

[jogiff]

Roy has been out of action for a long time. Have the other members of the party gained many levels from all of their misadventures while Roy has been dead? Might Roy now be a significantly lower level than the other members of Order of the Stick?

Don't forget the XP he probably lost from the rez.

[Tempest Fennac]

We know Elan has only just reached level 14 according to the comic where he revealed his new spells, and Roy needed to be at least level 14 for Eugene's "highest level good character on the field" comment to be true, so Roy is probably level 13 now. We don't know about Durkon or Belkar exactly, but it's assumed Haley is level 15 due to her apparently having Improved Precise shot and V's new Prismatic Spry spell may have been granted for free as a result of hitting level 14, but s/he spent a lot of Exps. on research so V may have gained the spell at level 13.

[Thanatosia]

I'm unclear on D&Ds planar rules - is there a prohibition from Petitioners gaining XP? Roy did spend a lot of time talking warrior stuff with his grandfather and even participated in the defeat of an evil planar raiding party.

[Morquard]

Haley fought the Goblins for months (!). Belkar didn't do that much due to his Mark of Justice, but I'm sure he did alot too. Low CR for the goblins, but they had a couple of runins with Tsukkiko and her Dead Squat too.
They also singlehandedly killed the entire thief-guild (well mostly Belkar did, but Haley did quite well too).
Elan and Durkon were with the fleet most of the time, and according to V the attacks by the sea creatures, while deadly for Azurite NPCs are probably too low for them to gain any XP from it.
They had a couple of encounters on the various islands though I guess.
V was level 13 during the attack, and then researched alot, I think that actually costs XP, so unlikely he leveled alot.
Roy, well did defeat ONE adventuring party, but with such ease (grandpa oneshots the cleric, Roy oneshots the fighter, the rogue gets killed off-panel), that I doubt it really gave him the 5 levels some people want to attribute to this encounter. I'd be surprised if he even noticed the XP from it.
He learned the basics of a style, but grandpa tells him he HAS to spend a feat on it for it to be of any use. So basicly he learned that the feat exists and knows to get it, not really much more.
Maybe he gets XP for roleplaying. Maybe not.

I still think Haley is the most powerful OotS now, with Roy somewhere on the lower end

[Tingel]

They also singlehandedly killed the entire thief-guild (well mostly Belkar did, but Haley did quite well too).
Elan and Durkon were with the fleet most of the time, and according to V the attacks by the sea creatures, while deadly for Azurite NPCs are probably too low for them to gain any XP from it.
You re being inconsequent, because if you claim that the sea encounters posed too low a risk to the PCs and thus didn't grant any experience points, then the same should be true for the majority of the slain members of the Thieves Guild.


I also don't agree with the assumption that experience is only (or even necessarily mainly) earned through killing stuff.

[Kaytara]

V has been pegged as level 14 due to the spells he could and couldn't cast during the island incident.

Don't forget that Belkar lost a newly-gained level by getting drained by a wight. He may or may not have made the Fort save necessary to reverse the effect after 24 hours.

And the above poster may be right - pretty much all of the thieves Haley and Belkar killed were low-level shmucks, Belkar even remarks on that. The only fairly high-level characters (Hank, Yor, Bozzok) are people they didn't kill. Haley killed Crystal by herself, which denies Belkar any XP. (He may have gotten XP from "defeating" her earlier, but it doesn't seem to work that way...)

[i6uuaq]

Anyway, since Xykon's Phylactery is in the sewers somewhere, it might be useful for the entire team to go down a level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html). :smallbiggrin:

[Haven]

I also don't agree with the assumption that experience is only (or even necessarily mainly) earned through killing stuff.

Both the prequel books provide pretty strong evidence that this is the case--Haley and V's motivation for adventuring in "Origins of PCs", and the reason goblins were created in "Start of Darkness".

[Kaytara]

Both the prequel books provide pretty strong evidence that this is the case--Haley and V's motivation for adventuring in "Origins of PCs", and the reason goblins were created in "Start of Darkness".

It need not be exclusively the case for those examples to still make sense. In any case, roleplaying and story/quest XP is alluded to in the comic on several occasions. Killing things is probably still the most steady and reliable source of XP.

[Tempest Fennac]

It was also incinuated in OtOoPCs that just solving a problem without killing stuff gets the same Exps. as killing stuff (it takes a lot longer, though).

[Poppy Appletree]

Anyway, since Xykon's Phylactery is in the sewers somewhere, it might be useful for the entire team to go down a level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html). :smallbiggrin:

:belkar: Not this again...

[Jagos]

I'm unclear on D&Ds planar rules - is there a prohibition from Petitioners gaining XP? Roy did spend a lot of time talking warrior stuff with his grandfather and even participated in the defeat of an evil planar raiding party.

That's true but he has to spend points on the feat for it to be effective. I believe he's just stuck at 13 until the next xp party.

[Silver2195]

I think Roy got a lot of roleplaying XP while he was dead.

[Jagos]

But he loses a level from the resurrection. It would put him at the same level or down a level.

[theinsulabot]

Haley killed Crystal by herself, which denies Belkar any XP. (He may have gotten XP from "defeating" her earlier, but it doesn't seem to work that way...)

it does, as scene from the chimera stips and the strip where where they captured the linear guild in azure city, fighting an enemy and rendering them "helpless" is considered a true defeat and you gain full xp for the encounter

[73 Bits of Lint]

I think Roy got a lot of roleplaying XP while he was dead.
Roleplaying experience in a world where there aren't any roles (because the PCs aren't being controlled by humans) doesn't make any sense. If Roy tooling about in Heaven with his grandfather was worth XP, then everyone would be getting flung into Epic levels by their 30th Birthday because, hey, they're always acting like the people that they are!
I know roleplaying XP was used in an early strip, but I think that was just a one-off gag from the earlier, less drama intensive days of the Order.

But, really, the answer to the question of what level Roy will be at is, "Whatever level Rich feels that Roy should be at in any particular moment." Sometimes, that means that sometimes Belkar is a Sexy Shoeless God of War, capable of slashing his way through an entire army without support, and sometimes the entire Order will be seen running away from a handful of goblins.

[Bibliomancer]

Keep in mind that Roy will probably catch up quickly if he's behind, because he's gaining bonus xp from taking care of all the other clowns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html) in the order.

I'm basing this assumption on the fact that he was a higher level than the rest when he died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and he always leveled up at the same time as everyone else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html) Therefore, he was gaining bonus xp from somewhere. This, added to the fact that lower level characters actually earn more xp for the same victories as higher level characters, will result in roy catching up in no time.

[HealthKit]

I'm basing this assumption on the fact that he was a higher level than the rest when he died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and he always leveled up at the same time as everyone else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html)

Hmm, but going by those comics it's possible that Belkar is at a higher level.

1. Eugene says that Roy was "the highest level Good character on the field".
2. When everyone else leveled up, Belkar came up short (pun not intended) by enough exp that he didn't level up at the same time as everyone else. That could be due to a higher level.

[theinsulabot]

elan has the far more plausible reason that belkar was just a few xp points off owing to being just behind the order when they started the run into darokan's dungeon.

[Elfin]

I'd have put Roy around lvl14 at the battle of Azure City. It seems pretty unlikely that he would have gotten any significant amount of xp from dispatching a single band of evil adventurers, so that'd put him around lvl13 now

[the_tick_rules]

He will be behind because ressurection takes a level plus whatever xp the rest have gained since. But will the giant make that a factor? Wait and see folks.

[Ridureyu]

He could alwyas catch up en route to the next destination via random encounters.

[Spiky]

Roy needed to be at least level 14 for Eugene's "highest level good character on the field" comment to be true

We have plenty of proof that Eugene is not trustworthy. Esp not when ripping on his son.

[[TS] Shadow]

He could alwyas catch up en route to the next destination via random encounters.

He doesn't even need random encounters; the island they're on has plent of monsters Roy could easily defeat for enough XP to catch up.

[Lamech]

Hmm, but going by those comics it's possible that Belkar is at a higher level.

1. Eugene says that Roy was "the highest level Good character on the field".
2. When everyone else leveled up, Belkar came up short (pun not intended) by enough exp that he didn't level up at the same time as everyone else. That could be due to a higher level.

Eugene was lying, well twisting words. Soon is a higher level than Roy. More importantly being the highest does not exclude things from being equally high. Yes, Eugene is implying that Roy was higher than everyone else, but he isn't being totally honest.

I see no reason to put Roy above his companions especially Belkar and V.

[awibs]

We have plenty of proof that Eugene is not trustworthy. Esp not when ripping on his son.

Yeah, but when he says anything that Roy thinks is b.s. Roy objects. If someone was higher, he would've immediately said so. By asking if it's a "with great power comes great responsibility" kind of argument, Roy is acknowledging that he knows he was the highest level character and only arguing his father's idea that the fact of his level makes him to blame.

[Ancalagon]

We know Elan has only just reached level 14 according to the comic where he revealed his new spells, and Roy needed to be at least level 14 for Eugene's "highest level good character on the field" comment to be true, so Roy is probably level 13 now. We don't know about Durkon or Belkar exactly, but it's assumed Haley is level 15 due to her apparently having Improved Precise shot and V's new Prismatic Spry spell may have been granted for free as a result of hitting level 14, but s/he spent a lot of Exps. on research so V may have gained the spell at level 13.

The Order were level 13 to 14 during the Azure City story.

Elan reached 15th level, you forgot his level in Dashing Swordsman.

[Cizak]

Hey, we have no idea if he has spent any time at the Dungeon of Monsters That Are Just Strong Enough to Really Challenge You. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html)

[Undead Prince]

But, really, the answer to the question of what level Roy will be at is, "Whatever level Rich feels that Roy should be at in any particular moment." Sometimes, that means that sometimes Belkar is a Sexy Shoeless God of War, capable of slashing his way through an entire army without support, and sometimes the entire Order will be seen running away from a handful of goblins.

That would destroy the integrity of the strip universe.

"Whatever level the author feels they should be at the moment" didn't happen yet, and hopefully will never happen. The minor liberties the author takes from time to time with the characters' abilities are not even close to the scale of incontinuity you're suggesting. Moreover, the author has several times gone to great lengths to explain, on the forums, how the characters' actions fully adhered both to the ruleset and to their estimated capabilities.

Having characters jump back and forth in levels on a whim for no reason than "convenience" would simply be bad writing.

Your examples are moot, as well. Belkar's killing sprees involved low-level enemies - hobos, Azure city guards, Thieves' Guild mooks. They are specifically referred to, on more than one occasion, as extremely weak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html), so weak Belkar doesn't even get XP for them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

And remind me, when was the Order "running away from a handful of goblins"?

[Ancalagon]

I think Roy should be around level 13 to 14 (since that's what the order was during the fight of Azure City), with the resurrection, he's more likely 13 than 14.
The other characters should be 14 to 15 (since they gained a level), apart from those who got hit with a level drain (Belkar), that would still make him 13 to 14, with more likely being 14 than 13 (and he would not be 15 due to the wight-contact).

So, the order should be in the levels 13 to 15 now, with Roy for sure on the lower end and Belkar for sure in the middle.

More interesting: While I doubt Xykon got a level out of all this (and he also burned xp on making items), Redcloak really should have gotten a level out of all this (kill as well as story-xp).

[factotum]

And remind me, when was the Order "running away from a handful of goblins"?

They did it quite a bit in the early strips, but they were presumably lower level then anyway.

[dps]

Yeah, but when he says anything that Roy thinks is b.s. Roy objects. If someone was higher, he would've immediately said so. By asking if it's a "with great power comes great responsibility" kind of argument, Roy is acknowledging that he knows he was the highest level character and only arguing his father's idea that the fact of his level makes him to blame.

My position has always been that Eugene thinks that Roy was the highest level good character there, but we have no hard evidence that Eugene's assumption is correct (and in fact, as has been pointed out, Soon was almost certainly higher level than Roy).

[Cracklord]

My position has always been that Eugene thinks that Roy was the highest level good character there, but we have no hard evidence that Eugene's assumption is correct (and in fact, as has been pointed out, Soon was almost certainly higher level than Roy).

If he wasn't then something strange is going on, since he curbstomped Xykon without a scratch.

[Moriarty]

If he wasn't then something strange is going on, since he curbstomped Xykon without a scratch.

yeah but his homebrewed ghostly template is kinda overpowered, the onlyeffective spell Xykon could use against him was magic missile

[Cracklord]

Or Necromancy, like Energy drain...
He said he was running out of high level spells, he'd used one 8th level before going in.
fire and lightning and area effecting always have problems against incorporeals.

[Spiky]

:confused: How do you scratch a ghost?

[DoctorJest]

Anyway, since Xykon's Phylactery is in the sewers somewhere, it might be useful for the entire team to go down a level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html). :smallbiggrin:

That stinks

[DoctorJest]

:confused: How do you scratch a ghost?

You give him a boo boo.

You asked for it. I make no apologies.

[Cleverdan22]

You give him a boo boo.

You asked for it. I make no apologies.

Oh gods...this. This right here. I love this. Your words are fantastic.

[awibs]

My position has always been that Eugene thinks that Roy was the highest level good character there, but we have no hard evidence that Eugene's assumption is correct (and in fact, as has been pointed out, Soon was almost certainly higher level than Roy).

This is a valid point. Roy's and Eugene's behavior indicate only that they THOUGHT he was the highest character on the field. However, while they have no reason to know Soon's level personally, Roy has a very good reason to be familiar with the level of his party members. It's highly relevant data to consider when hiring them and he's been leveling evenly with them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html) ever since. So although they could be both not figuring for Soon, it does still support the ability to deduce Roy's level based on the theory that Roy is a higher level than the rest of the Order.

[lord_khaine]

This is a valid point. Roy's and Eugene's behavior indicate only that they THOUGHT he was the highest character on the field. However, while they have no reason to know Soon's level personally, Roy has a very good reason to be familiar with the level of his party members. It's highly relevant data to consider when hiring them and he's been leveling evenly with them ever since. So although they could be both not figuring for Soon, it does still support the ability to deduce Roy's level based on the theory that Roy is a higher level than the rest of the Order.

the problem with this is that it assumes Eugene would not twist the truth to be able to nag his son about the fall of Azure city.

its much more likely that Roy was on the same level as the rest of his party before his death.

[awibs]

the problem with this is that it assumes Eugene would not twist the truth to be able to nag his son about the fall of Azure city.

its much more likely that Roy was on the same level as the rest of his party before his death.

You missed the beginning of this conversation, I think. My original statement is that every time Eugene says something Roy thinks is b.s., Roy objects. If Roy knew that another character was equal or higher level than he was, he would probably have brought it up immediately in argument, just as he argued that Azure City was Hinjo's problem, not his. By immediately complaining that he didn't like the blame being placed upon him just because he was the highest level character, he showed that he had conceded that he was the highest level character (as far as he knew; it has been pointed out correctly that Soon was probably higher.)

[yanmaodao]

I think Roy should be around level 13 to 14 (since that's what the order was during the fight of Azure City), with the resurrection, he's more likely 13 than 14.
The other characters should be 14 to 15 (since they gained a level), apart from those who got hit with a level drain (Belkar), that would still make him 13 to 14, with more likely being 14 than 13 (and he would not be 15 due to the wight-contact).

So, the order should be in the levels 13 to 15 now, with Roy for sure on the lower end and Belkar for sure in the middle.

More interesting: While I doubt Xykon got a level out of all this (and he also burned xp on making items), Redcloak really should have gotten a level out of all this (kill as well as story-xp).

It's *for sure* that Belkar failed the fortitude save the next day? From the numbers, it's far more likely that he made it than he didn't.

[Jagos]

You missed the beginning of this conversation, I think. My original statement is that every time Eugene says something Roy thinks is b.s., Roy objects. If Roy knew that another character was equal or higher level than he was, he would probably have brought it up immediately in argument, just as he argued that Azure City was Hinjo's problem, not his. By immediately complaining that he didn't like the blame being placed upon him just because he was the highest level character, he showed that he had conceded that he was the highest level character (as far as he knew; it has been pointed out correctly that Soon was probably higher.)

Yes Soon was higher but really, when did Hinjo tell us about Soon?

And if we want to get technical, no one was told about Miko destroying the gate so Roy doesn't know that.

[Random832]

"highest level" doesn't even technically mean there was no-one of the same level - and anyway, the point was that none of the azure city higher-ups were the as high-level as him - he was in charge of the order anyway

[Morquard]

Roy doesn't strike me as someone who says "Highest level? No way, Haley is the same level, blame her!"

He might say "Azure City isn't my responsibility, its Hinjo's", but he won't try to put the blame on one of his team.

Especially since he's the leader of that team, even if Haley was higher than him (not saying she was), he'd still consider it his responsibility, and probably not disagree with Eugene about it.