[4e]The Psion

[NPCMook]

As said about a month ago DDI members were going to be getting PHB3 material once a month every month till release of the physical Copy of PHB3 next year. On July 7th, we will get a sneak peak of The Psion.

[KillianHawkeye]

Um... thanks for letting us know? :smallconfused:

[Starbuck_II]

I'm intrigued. Good to know.

[Kyeudo]

So, what is psionics going to look like in 4th edition? How are they different from Wizards?

[Behold_the_Void]

I'm really looking forward to the Psion. I should get my DDI subscription.

[RTGoodman]

So, what is psionics going to look like in 4th edition? How are they different from Wizards?

My guess? It'll be a Psionic Controller, focusing not on explosive blasts but on hindering specifc groups of foes ("Target: One, two, or three creatures in range" or something), hitting with a lot of force and psychic damage, and dealing smaller damage but worse status conditions for the most part (so less slowing, immobilizing, and weakening, but more dazing, stunning, and dominating).

[Draz74]

I'm curious if Psion will even be a Controller. Certainly there should be a Psionic Controller, but I could actually imagine Psion ending up as a Leader instead.

[Shadow_Elf]

I'm curious if Psion will even be a Controller. Certainly there should be a Psionic Controller, but I could actually imagine Psion ending up as a Leader instead.

They've already semi-officially announced that the Empath will be the Psionic Leader. It was in a message from WotC staff on the forums, I believe the topic was mechanical distinctions between classes of the same role.

[Starsinger]

They've already semi-officially announced that the Empath will be the Psionic Leader. It was in a message from WotC staff on the forums, I believe the topic was mechanical distinctions between classes of the same role.

They also officially announced a Ki power source at one point. :smalltongue:

[Asbestos]

So, what is psionics going to look like in 4th edition? How are they different from Wizards?

I think that they'll be similar to Wizards as much as they are similar to Invokers. Both classes are great at laying down area effect hurt, but their class features are what really set them apart. I imagine that the Psion will be different, but similiar, in this same way (and with more physic damage attacks)

I really hope that the defender is a blend of the soulknife and the psychic warrior. The soulknife's blade could be implemented in a way similar to the monks unarmed strike I imagine... of course you could probably make an ersatz soulknife by reflavoring the MUS as a psychic-blade.

[RTGoodman]

I really hope that the defender is a blend of the soulknife and the psychic warrior. The soulknife's blade could be implemented in a way similar to the monks unarmed strike I imagine... of course you could probably make an ersatz soulknife by reflavoring the MUS as a psychic-blade.

I wouldn't put money on it, but it seems to me like Soulknife COULD end up as a Monk Paragon Path.

[NPCMook]

I wouldn't put money on it, but it seems to me like Soulknife COULD end up as a Monk Paragon Path.

This could possibly happen since Favored Soul ended up a Paragon Path

[Hzurr]

Er...shouldn't this be today? I'm not seeing it anywhere. :smallfrown:

[Asbestos]

According to the Ampersand article it should be up this week.

[Tiki Snakes]

Er...shouldn't this be today? I'm not seeing it anywhere. :smallfrown:

In the character builder, it should be. (see update list)
Of course, I can't get mine to update right now, probably due to a rush on the thing. That or the server's down while they put it up. Either way.

Psions for me later, and lovely hybrid stuff to play with. ^_^

[ghost_warlock]

From my understanding of what's been written by WotC, it won't be in article form at all, but be downloaded as part of the character builder update.

:smalltongue: ninja'd

[Gralamin]

From my understanding of what's been written by WotC, it won't be in article form at all, but be downloaded as part of the character builder update.

:smalltongue: ninja'd

They said in at least one article there would be an article explaining it, which sounds like the full monk article thing.

The Update Servers are down right now, so I'm assuming their uploading it.

[Doc Roc]

I wouldn't put money on it, but it seems to me like Soulknife COULD end up as a Monk Paragon Path.

Please, damn it, we don't need a rehash of the soulknife as a base class.
They really never learn though, so.... :S

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Please, damn it, we don't need a rehash of the soulknife as a base class.
They really never learn though, so.... :S

They're really good at un-learning, though, so given that the soulknife was originally a PrC there may be hope yet.

[Gralamin]

Please, damn it, we don't need a rehash of the soulknife as a base class.
They really never learn though, so.... :S

I dunno. If they combine the Soulknife and Psychic Warrior into one awesome package, and use that as a base class it'd be awesome.

Also, these (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18972041&postcount=44) posts (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18969635&postcount=25) might be of interest.

[ghost_warlock]

They said in at least one article there would be an article explaining it, which sounds like the full monk article thing.

The Update Servers are down right now, so I'm assuming their uploading it.

Spiffy. :smallsmile:

Please let it not suck, my enjoyment of 4e hinges on this.


I dunno. If they combine the Soulknife and Psychic Warrior into one awesome package, and use that as a base class it'd be awesome.

Maybe...but it wouldn't be a psion. :smallwink:

[Gralamin]

Character Builder Update up

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Anyone willing to give a basic summary for those of us without DDI? (Nothing restricted, just stuff like "warlocks get infernal, fey, and star pact" or "divine classes get channel divinity.")

[ghost_warlock]

Hm. Sort of off-topic, but did anyone else notice this in the patch notes?


Doppelgangers and changelings are the same race. Any character created as a doppelganger from Monster Manual will become a changeling (from Eberron).

[NPCMook]

Role: Contoller
Key Abilities: Int, Cha, Wis
Armor: Cloth
Weapon: Simple Melee and Ranged
Implements: Orbs, and Staffs
Bonus Defense: +2 Will

[ghost_warlock]

Anyone willing to give a basic summary for those of us without DDI? (Nothing restricted, just stuff like "warlocks get infernal, fey, and star pact" or "divine classes get channel divinity.")

Telepathy discipline is the only one included in the update; lots of psychic keywords on powers (no surprise there). Gains new at-will powers instead of encounter powers as you level and can augment these at-will powers with power points (number of power points is based on level). Power points are restored during a short or extended rest. Power points can only be spent to augment powers with the 'augmentable' keyword. First augment increases the utility of the power, second increases the utility as well as dealing a bit more damage.

@V: Good! :smallwink: Really, the way it works mechanically is that you get at-wills instead of encounters and you can turn some of those at-wills into encounter powers by spending your power points.

[NPCMook]

Wow, this class kind of makes my head spin since its very different from any of the other classes... I feel as if some of the other classes have gotten the short end of the stick...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Implements: Orbs, and Staffs

:smallconfused: Interesting. I figured Orbs, since they kinda-sorta resemble psicrystals, but staffs? Based off of our friend Ialdabode the iconic 3e psion, perhaps?

EDIT: I just realized I remembered and successfully spelled the iconic psion's name without needing to look anything up. Let's tone down the psionics love, shall we, Dice?


Power points...augment

*rubs eyes*


Power points...augment

YES! They kept augmentation and finally broke the power structure mold! I'm not going to hate 4e psionics!

[Hzurr]

Just a bit of the class:

Class features (Telepathy option):

Distract
Your mental barrage momentarily confuses an enemy
Encounter Psionic
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Level 11: One or Two Creatures
Level 21: One, Two, or Tree Creatures
Effect: The target grants combat advantage to the next creature that attacks it before the end of your next turn

Send Thoughts
You communicate telepathically with a creature
Encounter Psionic
Free Action Ranged 20
Target: One Creature
Effect: You send a mental message of 25 words or fewer to the target. The target can respond in kind as a free action


At will powers:

Dishearten

You insert thoughts of defeat into your foes’ minds, sapping their will to fight.

At-Will Augmentable, Implement, Psionic, Psychic
Standard Action Area burst 1 within 10 squares

Target: Each creature in burst

Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Augment 1:
Hit: As above, and the target cannot make opportunity attacks until the end of your next turn.

Augment 2:
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.


Memory Hole

You sift through your foe’s mind for the mental representation of yourself within it and brutally rip it out.

At-Will Augmentable, Implement, Psionic, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and you become invisible to the target until the start of your next turn.

Augment 1:
Hit: As above, but the invisibility lasts until the end of your next turn.

Augment 2:
Range: Area burst 1 within 10 squares

Target: Each creature in burst

Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and you become invisible to the target until the start of your next turn.

Mind Thrust

You unleash a psychic assault on your foe’s mental pathways. You can increase the assault’s intensity to weaken your foe’s defenses.

At-Will Augmentable, Implement, Psionic, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage.

Special: You can use this power unaugmented as a ranged basic attack.

Augment 1:
Hit: As above, and the target takes a penalty to Will equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.

Augment 2:
Hit: 2d10 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a penalty to all defenses equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.

[ghost_warlock]

EDIT: I just realized I remembered and successfully spelled the iconic psion's name without needing to look anything up. Let's tone down the psionics love, shall we, Dice?
NEVER! :smallbiggrin:


YES! They kept augmentation and finally broke the power structure mold! I'm not going to hate 4e psionics!
Looks like Telepathy will be mostly based on Int to hit w/ Cha having secondary effects. Since Wis is also listed as one of the primary psion abilities, any bets on Clairsentience being the second discipline released? Psychokinesis and, hm, Metacreativity (for summons?) to follow in Psionic Power?

I'm sad to think that Psychometabolism may be getting cut (I really think it should be Con-based, anyway) but I can certainly see Psychoportation being squeezed into a book somewhere and having some effects reminiscient of the fey-pact warlock.

[Hzurr]

Hmm...it looks like WotC also made some errors in this update

No Level 1 encounter powers

The Level 3, 7, 13, 17, 23 and 27 powers are listed as being at-will

Oops :smallsmile:


Edit
Ah, Ignore this. I didn't realize it was supposed to be that way. It's what I get for posting before reading.

[NPCMook]

The class doesn't gain Encounter powers at all

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Augment 1:
Hit: As above, and the target cannot make opportunity attacks until the end of your next turn.

Augment 2:
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.

Are the augments cumulative? Augment 2 beefs up the base effect, but there's no indication of whether Augment 1 stacks or overlaps.


NEVER!

Well, I wasn't really planning to....


Looks like Telepathy will be mostly based on Int to hit w/ Cha having secondary effects. Since Wis is also listed as one of the primary psion abilities, any bets on Clairsentience being the second discipline released? Psychokinesis and, hm, Metacreativity (for summons?) to follow in Psionic Power?

Problem is, Clairsentience doesn't lend itself to combat powers much, so I doubt it would get its own discipline. I think it's much more likely to be split between Telepathy utility powers and the psionic equivalent of rituals, if any (and there had better be a way to get noncombat psionic powers).


I'm sad to think that Psychometabolism may be getting cut (I really think it should be Con-based, anyway) but I can certainly see Psychoportation being squeezed into a book somewhere and having some effects reminiscient of the fey-pact warlock.

Psychometabolism would be more of a Striker or Defender schtick anyway, so it makes sense that the Controller psion wouldn't get it; I wouldn't be surprised to see the soulknife+psychic warrior equivalent getting Psychometabolism as one discipline (focusing on self-buffs for either damage or defense) and Metacreativity as the other (focusing on creating weapons/ectoplasmic blasts if a Striker or armor/ectoplasmic barriers if a Defender).

I could see Psychoportation being a Wis-based discipline, actually; if they play up the time aspects, it could take a bit of the perceptiveness of Wis and a bit of Clairsentience and be the "teleport around and prepare for what's coming" discipline, featuring tons of immediate-action powers. (Actually, that would be a nice split: Telepathy is the proactive "stuff on your turn" discipline and Psychoportation is the reactive "stuff on everyone else's turn" discipline.)

[NPCMook]

No, you may only spend 1 or 2 points. The 2 point Augment usually boosts the damage of the power while including what spending 1 point would add.

[Gralamin]

The Psion is perhaps the most awesome class I've seen yet. Its Unique, its powerful, and it captures most of the flavor.

Now all we need is the Thrallherd. (Paragon Paths given are: Uncarnate, and Cerulean Adept)


No, you may only spend 1 or 2 points. The 2 point Augment usually boosts the damage of the power while including what spending 1 point would add.

You can only spend as much as it states actually. There are powers with 6 point Augments.

[Mando Knight]

The one problem it has is that Novice Power doesn't work at all. :smallsigh:

You can almost literally build an entire level 30 character around mental domination, to possess your targets and use them against their will.

Regardless of the build chosen, Con 13 and Wis 13 (for Dark Fury) by Epic tier (at least) seems to be a must, since they don't get the free level 21 augmentation to their at-will power damage.

[Asbestos]

So, if a half-elf takes up a psion level 1 at-will as their racial power, it counts as unaugmented and is not augmentable, correct?

Does this also apply to the extra level 1 at-will gained by humans?

[Gralamin]

So, if a half-elf takes up a psion level 1 at-will as their racial power, it counts as unaugmented and is not augmentable, correct?

Does this also apply to the extra level 1 at-will gained by humans?

Yes.

--
My First Attempted Psion build, including Item Wishlist:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Morthos, level 30
Tiefling, Psion, Uncarnate, Demigod
Discipline Focus: Telepathy Focus
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Intelligence
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 28, Wis 14, Cha 28.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 16.


AC: 41 Fort: 39 Reflex: 49 Will: 50
HP: 142 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 35

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +29, Intimidate +29, Arcana +29, Bluff +31

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +17, Heal +17, History +24, Insight +17, Nature +17, Perception +17, Religion +24, Stealth +17, Streetwise +24, Thievery +15, Athletics +16

FEATS
Psion: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Discipline Adept
Level 2: Implement Expertise (orb)
Level 4: Precise Mind
Level 6: Ferocious Rebuke
Level 8: Distant Advantage
Level 10: Improved Initiative
Level 11: Dominating Mind
Level 12: Psychic Defense
Level 14: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 16: Psychic Lock
Level 18: Dark Fury
Level 20: Point-Blank Shot
Level 21: Danger Sense
Level 22: Tower of Iron Will
Level 24: Epic Resurgence
Level 26: Epic Fortitude
Level 28: Epic Reflexes
Level 30: Epic Will

POWERS
Psion at-will 1: Memory Hole
Psion at-will 1: Mind Thrust
Psion daily 1: Ravening Thought
Psion utility 2: Intellect Fortress
Psion at-will 3: Betrayal
Psion daily 5: Hypnotic Pulse
Psion utility 6: Steadfast Stanchion
Psion at-will 7: Mind Break (replaces Mind Thrust)
Psion daily 9: Mind Blast
Psion utility 10: Mind over Flesh
Psion at-will 13: Mind Wipe (replaces Betrayal)
Psion daily 15: Dominate (replaces Ravening Thought)
Psion utility 16: Psychic Chirurgery
Psion at-will 17: Psychic Brand (replaces Memory Hole)
Psion daily 19: Psychic Crush (replaces Hypnotic Pulse)
Psion utility 22: Mind Over Earth
Psion at-will 23: Sudden Control (replaces Mind Break)
Psion daily 25: Thrall (replaces Mind Blast)
Psion at-will 27: Psionic Veil (replaces Mind Wipe)
Psion daily 29: Microcosm (replaces Dominate)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Gith Orb of Illithid's Bane +6, Illithid Robes Mindpatterned Armor +6, Tattered Cloak +6, Nullifying Ring (epic tier), Star Opal Ring (epic tier), Headband of Intellect (epic tier), Gloves of Camaraderie (epic tier), Mindiron Vambraces (epic tier), Belt of Resilience (epic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



The one problem it has is that Novice Power doesn't work at all. :smallsigh:

You can almost literally build an entire level 30 character around mental domination, to possess your targets and use them against their will.

Regardless of the build chosen, Con 13 and Wis 13 (for Dark Fury) by Epic tier (at least) seems to be a must, since they don't get the free level 21 augmentation to their at-will power damage.

I'm Guessing Novice Power is going to be "You gain an at-will you may use 1/encounter, and gain 2 PP."

[Mando Knight]

I'm Guessing Novice Power is going to be "You gain an at-will you may use 1/encounter, and gain 2 PP."

Perhaps. The problem I saw was that the Character Builder doesn't allow a Psion/Wizard (for instance... the only other good multiclass for the Psion right now is the Artificer) to make use of Novice Power to gain any Wizard encounter powers.

[Gralamin]

Perhaps. The problem I saw was that the Character Builder doesn't allow a Psion/Wizard (for instance... the only other good multiclass for the Psion right now is the Artificer) to make use of Novice Power to gain any Wizard encounter powers.

That is a good point. I wonder how they are going to handle it.

[tbarrie]

What is the deal with Dishearten? I never thought the Wizard's Illusory Ambush (also known as the Bard's Vicious Mockery) was particularly underpowered, but Dishearten just blows it (them) out of the water.

[TheEmerged]

I'm not surprised to see them keeping those two points. And Staff being an implement shouldn't be a surprise after seeing Eye-Boy (the iconic psion) weilding one when pictured the the PHB1 (pg51), even if he's wielding it like a spear :smallbiggrin:

As for the "OMG They're using a new mechanic!", again I don't see the source of the shock. In my own experiment in creating psionic classes, I found that there's plenty of ways to work the power system instead of the at-will/encounter/daily system. My egoist (leader) used a power point similar to this, while my soulknife (striker) used a combo/finisher system akin to a rogue from WoW. I was toying with a 'rage' mechanic for the shaper (defender) as well but didn't yet like the result in practice.

[Behold_the_Void]

Oh my god this is sexy.

*tinkers gleefully with psion builds*

[Colmarr]

What is the deal with Dishearten? I never thought the Wizard's Illusory Ambush (also known as the Bard's Vicious Mockery) was particularly underpowered, but Dishearten just blows it (them) out of the water.

The only real difference between the two as at-will powers is that Dishearten is an area burst 1 power. That's handy, but it can also cause problems if allies are in the area (particularly since all of the "exclude allies from an area attack" feats are IIRC currently reserved for the arcane power source*).

Dishearten can be augmented, but once it is it starts becoming an encounter power rather than an at-will and should be better than Illusionary Ambush.

To those with access to the info, how many power points do Psions get? (ie. can you be more specific that "is based on level"?)

*Am I right about this?

[Jothki]

So is Memory Hole the most badass (conceptually, not necessarily in terms of in-game strength) at will power so far, or has something else managed to top it?

Edit: I wonder what effects it would have when used as something other than a combat ability. If you are sneaking around, a guard spots you, and you immediately Memory Hole him and conceal yourself on the same turn, is it like he never spotted you or will he still remember that he saw someone, even if he can't describe you?

If he completely forgets about spotting you, can you use that same thing to escape from combat or pursuit?

Thinking about it, it probably just makes the target incapable of recognizing your existance for a bit, which is still quite useful if there are several spots you can hide. Anything greater would probably be brokenish.

[erikun]

Gains new at-will powers instead of encounter powers as you level and can augment these at-will powers with power points (number of power points is based on level). Power points are restored during a short or extended rest. Power points can only be spent to augment powers with the 'augmentable' keyword.
Sexy. A whole host of at-will abilities that can be freely augmented? Thank you.


What is the deal with Dishearten? I never thought the Wizard's Illusory Ambush (also known as the Bard's Vicious Mockery) was particularly underpowered, but Dishearten just blows it (them) out of the water.
How so? It's Vicious Mockery that you need to spend power points (meaning turn into an encounter) to make better, and is clearly worse at level 21+. I'd rather have the Paladin's Enfeebling Strike, myself.

[Tengu_temp]

How so? It's Vicious Mockery that you need to spend power points (meaning turn into an encounter) to make better, and is clearly worse at level 21+. I'd rather have the Paladin's Enfeebling Strike, myself.

Burst 1, as opposed to single target.

[Mando Knight]

To those with access to the info, how many power points do Psions get? (ie. can you be more specific that "is based on level"?)

You get two at every level where you normally get a class Encounter Power except level 13, where you get only one. Psion-based Paragon Paths grant you 2 extra Power Points.

[Sir Homeslice]

Psions are getting dangerously close to being my most favorite class.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As for the "OMG They're using a new mechanic!", again I don't see the source of the shock. In my own experiment in creating psionic classes, I found that there's plenty of ways to work the power system instead of the at-will/encounter/daily system.

The shock isn't that there's a new system that works, it's that WotC is officially breaking away from the at-will/encounter/daily pattern. Most of us thought they were too set in their ways or afraid of messing up the system to try something different, and have been pleasantly surprised.

[ColdSepp]

The shock isn't that there's a new system that works, it's that WotC is officially breaking away from the at-will/encounter/daily pattern. Most of us thought they were too set in their ways or afraid of messing up the system to try something different, and have been pleasantly surprised.

I thought that was the plan... I recall an interview about the PHB2 where they outright said they planned to break the mold as the books went on.

[Colmarr]

The shock isn't that there's a new system that works, it's that WotC is officially breaking away from the at-will/encounter/daily pattern. Most of us thought they were too set in their ways or afraid of messing up the system to try something different, and have been pleasantly surprised.

Actually, I'm not that surprised at all.

D&D's lead developer (whose name I forget) stated on one of the recent Tome Show podcasts (the 1-year anniversary one) that he is constantly pushing the development team to look at new ways of expanding the mechanics.

The monk was the example he gave (which is itself a pretty radical departure from what come before it), and the psion is shaping up to be more evidence that 4e isn't going to be as "in the box" as people feared.

[Asbestos]

Is anyone else finding the way that the Psion power cards are done in the character builder to be a bit obnoxious? I mean... 3 cards for each at-will? I can understand why, kind of... but still, its a bit too busy.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Actually, I'm not that surprised at all.

D&D's lead developer (whose name I forget) stated on one of the recent Tome Show podcasts (the 1-year anniversary one) that he is constantly pushing the development team to look at new ways of expanding the mechanics.

The monk was the example he gave (which is itself a pretty radical departure from what come before it), and the psion is shaping up to be more evidence that 4e isn't going to be as "in the box" as people feared.

It's the speed of changes that was surprising to most, I think; the monk had the "full discipline" thing which involved move actions but still following the AW/E/D pattern; on the other forums I frequent, people were saying "OK, yeah, I can see this working...a few changes here, a few changes there, we might have something like psionics, who knows, give it time...." Suddenly encounters go away completely for psionics, and those folks didn't know what hit them.

Basically, the fact that things would change wasn't a shock; the fact that things would change now, was.

[NPCMook]

I think this at-will only thing could have possibly worked with Wizard also.

[Gralamin]

Is anyone else finding the way that the Psion power cards are done in the character builder to be a bit obnoxious? I mean... 3 cards for each at-will? I can understand why, kind of... but still, its a bit too busy.

Since the Augmentation sometimes basically changes it into a different power, I actually find it a nice solution.

[1of3]

To those with access to the info, how many power points do Psions get? (ie. can you be more specific that "is based on level"?)

Two at first level and usually two more, when other classes gain an encounter power. (Exception: Only one point at level 13.)

[RTGoodman]

Good gods am I excited to see what this finally looks like. (I've been out of the state since early this morning, and missed the big unveiling.) Unfortunately, it appears that my download is gonna take FORTY BAJILLION DAYS to finish. :smallannoyed:

[Excession]

Problem is, Clairsentience doesn't lend itself to combat powers much, so I doubt it would get its own discipline. I think it's much more likely to be split between Telepathy utility powers and the psionic equivalent of rituals, if any (and there had better be a way to get noncombat psionic powers).

The Psion gets ritual casting. You start with a level 1 ritual of your choice, and then a choice of either Tenser's Floating Disk or "Sending" that can be cast once per day without costing anything. Sending is not a current ritual, does it sound like anything out of 3.5 psionics?

[RTGoodman]

Sending is not a current ritual, does it sound like anything out of 3.5 psionics?

Actually, it IS a ritual. It's from the PHB:


Sending
You can see him in your mind’s eye, clear as the first time you met him. Your magic lets him know that you’re safe, despite encountering the followers of Thoon, and he reassures you that the red dragon caused him no harm.

Component Cost: 50 gp
Market Price: 360 gp
Key Skill: Arcana; Level: 6
Category: Exploration
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: Instantaneous

You convey a mental message of up to 25 words to a person you know. If the target is within range, he or she receives the message mentally and can respond likewise. The ritual’s maximum range is determined by your Arcana check result.

Arcana Check Result - Maximum Range
9 or lower - 10 miles
10–19 - 100 miles
20–29 - 500 miles
30–39 - 1,000 miles
40 or higher - Anywhere on the same plane

[Alteran]

This is awesome! Yesss! This is so cool! I've only just skimmed the powers list, but so far I really love what I see. This looks like a fantastic class, and I should be able to play one soon. :smallsmile:

I am very glad to see WotC breaking free from the power structure. They had done that a little (rages, wild shape, etc) but this looks like a much more radical change. I'll need to see it in play before I declare it balanced, but at first glance it looks very promising.

[Sebastrd]

Is anyone else finding the way that the Psion power cards are done in the character builder to be a bit obnoxious? I mean... 3 cards for each at-will? I can understand why, kind of... but still, its a bit too busy.

The newest update allows you to hide power cards you don't want to see. That being the case, I'd rather they err on the side of too many rather than too few.

[Alteran]

I do see one significant problem with the Psion so far, and that's limited options. It seems that almost every single power targets will and deals psychic damage. That may be a good thing in general, but what if you run into a Mind Flayer? I'm not sure how they would diversify the power choice of the Psion (especially the Telepath), but I think it's necessary to have a well-rounded class.

Overall thoughts, though? Still very excited.

...

http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs24/f/2007/315/d/0/__MIND_CRUSH___by_KeroTheHetetic.png

[ghost_warlock]

I do see one significant problem with the Psion so far, and that's limited options. It seems that almost every single power targets will and deals psychic damage. That may be a good thing in general, but what if you run into a Mind Flayer? I'm not sure how they would diversify the power choice of the Psion (especially the Telepath), but I think it's necessary to have a well-rounded class.

They've stated, in the psion article and elsewhere, that the other discipline will deal mostly with force damage and moving people around, which I assume will be mostly about the Reflex defense but with perhaps a few Fortitude thrown in.

[Excession]

Actually, it IS a ritual. It's from the PHB:

Whoops, didn't expect it to be level 6.

[Kurald Galain]

The only real difference between the two as at-will powers is that Dishearten is an area burst 1 power. That's handy, but it can also cause problems if allies are in the area (particularly since all of the "exclude allies from an area attack" feats are IIRC currently reserved for the arcane power source*).
I can think of two exclusion feats (War Wizardry and Spell Accuracy). Both are wizard-only, and neither is at heroic tier.

That said, wizards already have Chilling Cloud, which is like an area effect Ray of Frost; and Ray of Frost is a typical example of a spell that many people think is good but statistically really isn't. So that Dishearten is better is really not a big deal.


The shock isn't that there's a new system that works, it's that WotC is officially breaking away from the at-will/encounter/daily pattern.
That's hardly surprising; they would run out of design space otherwise. I find the psionic system much more elegant than the clunky gimmick of monk disciplines.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The Psion gets ritual casting. You start with a level 1 ritual of your choice, and then a choice of either Tenser's Floating Disk or "Sending" that can be cast once per day without costing anything.

...seriously? Tenser's Floating Disk? I know it goes with the whole force schtick, but of all the possible psionic abilities that could be turned into rituals, they picked an existing arcane one named after a gods-damned wizard?

:smallfurious:

[Master_Rahl22]

Wow, so they get a strictly better Eyebite and a strictly better Eldritch Blast. It seems like Warlocks are still bottom of the heap...

[Artanis]

Wow, so they get a strictly better Eyebite and a strictly better Eldritch Blast. It seems like Warlocks are still bottom of the heap...

Comparing things based on a power-by-power comparison simply does not work. It doesn't work in any version of any RPG, it doesn't work in video games, it doesn't work in CCGs, and it doesn't even work in board games. You have to take the entire class as a whole, how all the powers AND class features AND PPs AND everything else works together, not just compare a couple powers.

[Tengu_temp]

Wow, so they get a strictly better Eyebite and a strictly better Eldritch Blast. It seems like Warlocks are still bottom of the heap...

Twin Strike is strictly better than Dual Strike, so rangers are strictly better than fighters.

[TheEmerged]

Comparing things based on a power-by-power comparison simply does not work. It doesn't work in any version of any RPG, it doesn't work in video games, it doesn't work in CCGs, and it doesn't even work in board games. You have to take the entire class as a whole, how all the powers AND class features AND PPs AND everything else works together, not just compare a couple powers.

Bolded part emphasized by me. You're either exaggerating or misinformed, as I can think of several RPG's where that works just fine (GURPS and HERO being the best examples). And board games? A high percentage of them have all players identical.

Speaking for 4th Edition, however, you're right. I think I've worked out some of their core during the comparisons I've made when I was toying with creating my own psionic classes and it's clear they use different "values" when creating powers between the archetypes (defender, striker, controller, leader).

[tbarrie]

Wow, so they get a strictly better Eyebite and a strictly better Eldritch Blast. It seems like Warlocks are still bottom of the heap...

See, this sounds reassuring, as it would imply that having better At-Wills than we've seen to date was a deliberate design feature of the Psion, rather than Dishearten being an anomaly.

Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be true. The At-Will version of Memory Hole is actually identical to Eyebite (except for which stat it works off of, of course); the At-Will version of Mind Thrust is similarly identical to Eldritch Blast, save key stat and which non-Armour Class defence it targets. What am I missing that would make the Psion versions strictly better?

[RTGoodman]

I just finished playing through three delve-style encounters with a 3rd-level party of Goliath Fighter, Half-Orc Barbarian, Gnome Bard, and Changeling Psion, and I have to say I really like the way the Psion plays. Deciding when's best to spend your power points (only 4 at the level I tested) makes for some hard tactical decisions ("If I blow two power points now, I can maybe take out all three minions, but then I won't be able to crush the Elites defenses more than once!"), and isn't as complicated as it seems like it might be at first. Might be moreso at higher levels (my sample 30th level Psion has 17 power points, I think), but with that many you can afford to augment almost every power with at least one or two points for a whole encounter.

None of the powers I looked at seemed particularly overpowered, and neither do the feats. In fact, the at-wills TO ME, overall, seem slightly weak for a Controller because of the lack of an at-will AoE. Focusing on one enemy at a time makes it good in Solo battles (though in my playtest against a Solo, the Psion missed every attack but one, and that was an unaugmented power), but against a horde of enemies (either standards or minions) the Wizard and probably Druid still "out-control" it. Nevermind, I'm stupid - apparently I built the Psion in question late last night and forgot I chose single-target ones from a flavor perspective. Disregard... :smalltongue:

My favorite feature of the Psion, though? Distract. It's basically a twice-per-encounter ('cause nobody's gonna pass up the feat that lets you do it twice instead of once per encounter) minor action +2 attack, or (ideally) auto-SA for your party rogue. The other feature encounter power (send thoughts) I personally believe should be an at-will minor action instead of once/twice-per-encounter free action, but that could just be me.

[Gralamin]

I just finished playing through three delve-style encounters with a 3rd-level party of Goliath Fighter, Half-Orc Barbarian, Gnome Bard, and Changeling Psion, and I have to say I really like the way the Psion plays. Deciding when's best to spend your power points (only 4 at the level I tested) makes for some hard tactical decisions ("If I blow two power points now, I can maybe take out all three minions, but then I won't be able to crush the Elites defenses more than once!"), and isn't as complicated as it seems like it might be at first. Might be moreso at higher levels (my sample 30th level Psion has 17 power points, I think), but with that many you can afford to augment almost every power with at least one or two points for a whole encounter.
Some of the higher level powers have Augment 6.


None of the powers I looked at seemed particularly overpowered, and neither do the feats. In fact, the at-wills TO ME, overall, seem slightly weak for a Controller because of the lack of an at-will AoE. Focusing on one enemy at a time makes it good in Solo battles (though in my playtest against a Solo, the Psion missed every attack but one, and that was an unaugmented power), but against a horde of enemies (either standards or minions) the Wizard and probably Druid still "out-control" it.
:smallconfused: There are multiple at will Area of Effect at-wills. In fact, Here is a list:
Dishearten (At-will 1)
Id Insinuation (At-Will 3)
Mind Wipe (At-Will 13)
Daggers of Pain (At-Will 23)
Psionic Veil (At-will 27)


Also, Last time I checked, Druid was a rather meh controller. Did I miss some hidden druid cheese? (My Controller list, power-wise, is basically: OrbWizard, Invoker, Psion, OtherWizard, Druid).


My favorite feature of the Psion, though? Distract. It's basically a twice-per-encounter ('cause nobody's gonna pass up the feat that lets you do it twice instead of once per encounter) minor action +2 attack, or (ideally) auto-SA for your party rogue. The other feature encounter power (send thoughts) I personally believe should be an at-will minor action instead of once/twice-per-encounter free action, but that could just be me.

I'm guessing Send Thoughts is like that so Psions don't get Kalashtar Racial traits.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I do see one significant problem with the Psion so far, and that's limited options. It seems that almost every single power targets will and deals psychic damage. That may be a good thing in general, but what if you run into a Mind Flayer? I'm not sure how they would diversify the power choice of the Psion (especially the Telepath), but I think it's necessary to have a well-rounded class.
Well, it makes good sense that Psionic powers wouldn't be as effective against a Mind Flayer as they would against, say, a goblin.

Perhaps there will be some Psionic Feats that provide Psions with additional defenses against Psychic attacks as well; that would maintain the "Mind Fight" sensibilities without breaking Psionic powers (again).

[RTGoodman]

Some of the higher level powers have Augment 6.

True, but most of the ones I remember (and it was late when I messed with those last night) also had a 2-point augmentation. Either way, it seems like 17 points is still quite a bit.



:smallconfused: There are multiple at will Area of Effect at-wills. In fact, Here is a list:

Yeah, I totally forgot that when I built the 3rd-level one I playtested, I specifically CHOSE single-target ones from a flavor perspective. :smallsigh: In that case, I really do think the Psion is probably my favorite Controller so far.


Also, Last time I checked, Druid was a rather meh controller. Did I miss some hidden druid cheese? (My Controller list, power-wise, is basically: OrbWizard, Invoker, Psion, OtherWizard, Druid).

I don't know about CHEESY, but I never really thought the Druid sucked. I wasn't a fan, but it didn't seem THAT bad. Don't know much about the Invoker, though (doesn't seem like something I'd play), and I've only ever seen it for one session.

[Gralamin]

I don't know about CHEESY, but I never really thought the Druid sucked. I wasn't a fan, but it didn't seem THAT bad. Don't know much about the Invoker, though (doesn't seem like something I'd play), and I've only ever seen it for one session.

Ah. Druid has always been the strange Controller do to its ability to move in and out of the Fray. I've never seen it as that good, but I might be missing something.

Invoker is a very good controller, dealing a lot of conditions, and sometimes effecting the whole battlefield. I like them a lot.

[Alteran]

Well, it makes good sense that Psionic powers wouldn't be as effective against a Mind Flayer as they would against, say, a goblin.


Not necessarily. It makes sense that psychic and other will-targeting powers would be less effective, granted, but the problem is that Psions are limited to those powers. They should be able to choose powers that won't be less effective against enemies like Mind Flayers. I'm aware that they will be getting these options, but it's still an issue for anybody who's playing a Psion now.



Perhaps there will be some Psionic Feats that provide Psions with additional defenses against Psychic attacks as well; that would maintain the "Mind Fight" sensibilities without breaking Psionic powers (again).

That sounds like something we can expect, there are already a few powers that do that.

[Artanis]

Better to target nothing but Will than to be stuck with targeting Fort all the time like the Bear Shaman often winds up doing.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, it took them a few editions, but the D&D designers have finally admitted that psionics are just another kind of magic.

Also, interesting mechanics there, but a bit lacking in variety (since the psion gets fewer powers, and most augments are similar to the base power). Looks like Psychic Lock is going to be a must-have at paragon level.

[TheEmerged]

Well, it took them a few editions, but the D&D designers have finally admitted that psionics are just another kind of magic.

Also, interesting mechanics there, but a bit lacking in variety (since the psion gets fewer powers, and most augments are similar to the base power). Looks like Psychic Lock is going to be a must-have at paragon level.

/sarcasm=11
/humor=on
That's weird. I would have *sworn* I heard those same complaints about 'just being another form of magic' and 'lacking variety' all the time during 3rd edition. :smallwink:
/humor=off
/sarcasm=default

disclosure -- the telepathic kobold I took from 3rd to 18th level in 3.0 was in a high psionic/magic transparency world.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

That's weird. I would have *sworn* I heard those same complaints about 'just being another form of magic' and 'lacking variety' all the time during 3rd edition. :smallwink:

Took the words right out of my mouth. In 1e and 2e, people were saying "Cool! It's different from magic--but too broken!" In 3e, people were saying "Cool! It's more balanced than magic--but too similar!"

Now there are people on forums saying both "Oh, thank goodness the psion is exactly like magic! Everything should have been the same all along. Now if only they'd get rid of those terribly complicated and *shudder* different power points, it'd be perfect; they're a sacred cow that should be killed!" and "Oh, thank goodness the psion is different from magic! It should have been completely different all along. It's about time they finally broke the mold for those stupid cookie-cutter classes; we've been sick of them since PHB2!"

You not only can't please everybody, you can't please anybody. Psions have too many PP. Psions have too few PP. Psions have PP. Psions are too versatile. Psions are too limited. Psions are too average. And on and on and on.

[Kurald Galain]

/sarcasm=11
/humor=on
That's weird. I would have *sworn* I heard those same complaints about 'just being another form of magic' and 'lacking variety' all the time during 3rd edition. :smallwink:
/humor=off
/sarcasm=default

Well, yes. In 3E, the rulebooks said "this is nog magic, honestly!" but the vast majority of psi powers were a copy/paste job from wizard spells. Now it's exactly the opposite way: the rulebooks say that it is magic, but it does different things than wizards do. That's an improvement, I'd say.