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JellyPooga
2009-06-27, 05:51 AM
I've been considering making a shapeshifter type character as a backup for one of the games I'm playing in and am considering my options. One such consideration involved the Wild Shape Ranger.

I like the Wild Shape Ranger if only because they get full BAB; obviously a boon to the melee focused shapeshifter. As is widely known, they make a good entry into Master of Many Forms due to the 'free' Endurance and aforementioned BAB. However, I didn't really want to be a MoMF; I was looking at something more like Beorn from The Hobbit or Belgarath from The Belgariad/Mallorean - only one or two alternate forms.

Now obviously a Lycanthrope could serve, but I didn't want to bite the Racial HD and LA tat go with it. Then I thought of the PHBII Shapeshifter Druid variant. Perfect for the theme I was looking for. However, taking a look, it replaces Wild Shape and Animal Companion; both things the the Wildshape Ranger has, albeit in lesser forms (his AC is only 1/2 level and his Wildshape is Small/Medium creatures only).

This got me thinking. The Shapeshift variant is obviously supposed to be balanced against the full Animal Companion/Wild Shape abilities but I still wanted to use the Wildshape Ranger for the skills/BAB/Favoured Enemy. The WS Ranger already substitutes its Combat Style to get Wildshape (though quite how 3 feats is the equivalent to Wild Shape I don't know, even if it is only small/medium creatures), so that couldn't go to help balance it, but that doesn't leave an awful lot else that can be substituted; about the only thing I can think of is the mediocre spellcasting a Ranger gets.

So my questions are these;
What options are there for me? - Does anyone know of a Template, Race, PrC or ACF that could fill the role I'm looking for, or am I looking at practically rebuilding a Ranger Variant Class to do it?

Would a Ranger substituting its Combat Style, Animal Companion and Spellcasting for the Druid Shapeshifter Variant be balanced?

Eldariel
2009-06-27, 05:56 AM
Shapeshifting is weaker than Wildshape. Just Wildshape Ranger trading Wildshape for Shapeshift is fine. It gives up Druid AC because WoTC realized Druids are broken and offer an ACF that basically screams "non-broken Druid"; it's a significant drop in power, but Druids can take it. Rangers, no reason to make 'em suck so much worse.


Anyways, there are few classes that could do what you want 'em to. Bear Warrior [CWar] is obvious; you gain the ability to become a Bear and that's it. Primeval [Frost] is another fine choice; gain the ability to turn into a (prehistoric) animal of your choice, but only one.

There are probably few other PrCs that allow shifting into one single form, and some that have a Rage-like "shifting"-ability for combat gear (such as Fist of the Forests) which can be flavoured as alternative creatures (much in the same way as Shapechange is flavoured; Shapechange itself is just physical augmentation but the fluffy bits make it seem like changing shape).

But yeah, that off the top of my head.

Gnorman
2009-06-27, 06:29 AM
Druids don't get animal companions OR wildshape with the Shapeshift Variant. Rangers give up their Combat Mastery to GET wildshape.

Ergo - you'd lose both combat styles and your animal companion, but spellcasting should stay.

But man, the Shapeshift Variant Druid is actually all kinds of fun - viable from level one, rather than level five, and the forms are pretty flavorful and fun.

It's basically what druids SHOULD be - they're still full casters, ergo completely broken, but at least now they aren't an entire party by themselves anymore. They can still summon, cast, and even fight with the best of them, but Wildshape cheese and the Animal Companion outshining the party fighter are at least potentially things of the past. They have to CHOOSE a role now - they can't do all three at once. And that's a good change.

JellyPooga
2009-06-27, 06:44 AM
Druids don't get animal companions OR wildshape with the Shapeshift Variant. Rangers give up their Combat Mastery to GET wildshape.

Ergo - you'd lose both combat styles and your animal companion, but spellcasting should stay.

My main concern was the fact that the Wild Shape a WS-Ranger gets is a lesser version of the one a Druid gets (only getting the ability to WIld Shape into Small or Medium creatures only), as is a Rangers Animal Companion (effective Druid level = Ranger level/2), so I wasn't sure about balancing issues. Taken at face value, a WS-Ranger is giving up less than a Druid does to gain the Shapechange variant but, as has been mentioned, the Shapechange variant does more than switch out class features; it actually does something towards balancing the Druid as a whole. With that in mind, I'm happy to go with a straight switch.

OK, now that's resolved (to my mind), I have a secondary question; How does the Shapeshift Variant work with regards to PrCs that advance Wild Shape progression (e.g. Arcane Heirophant or Natures Warrior)? If so, how do abilities that work while in Wild Shape (like the ones a Natures Warrior gets) interact with Shapechange? Does, indeed, the Shapechange variant even qualify you for things that require Wild Shape?

To be honest, I'm not all that interested in PrCing out with this character (at most I might take a few levels of Scout and take Swift Hunter to advance Skirmish), but I just like to know my options.

Gnorman
2009-06-27, 06:57 AM
By a strict RAW, if it requires Wildshape, you can't take it. Because you don't have Wildshape.

Things like Master of Many Forms, for example, end up being rather useless anyway.

Nature's Warrior, however, is debatable, and some of the abilities would be very nice for a Shapeshifter. Some wouldn't - you already have enhancement bonuses to your natural weapons based on your level, but things like DR and Fast Healing might be nice.

But Warshaper? Mmmm mmmm mmm. Especially for a Ranger. Plus, its requirements are "Wildshape or similar class feature." I'd say Shapeshifting certainly counts.

Eldariel
2009-06-27, 07:00 AM
I still suggest you check out Primeval; it seems exactly like what you want (just reflavour the "prehistoric"-part away).


OK, now that's resolved (to my mind), I have a secondary question; How does the Shapeshift Variant work with regards to PrCs that advance Wild Shape progression (e.g. Arcane Heirophant or Natures Warrior)?

Poorly. Shapeshift doesn't have any remark of it acting as Wildshape for classes; indeed, it specifically states you can't use Natural Spell while in it. So you shouldn't get any advancement whatsoever.

hat said, it seems perfectly reasonable to allow stacking advancement with classes that normally improve Wild Shape to keep the classes useful. It wouldn't break anything. It's worth noting that you do qualify for Warshaper as Shapeshift is a "similar ability" to Wild Shape.


If so, how do abilities that work while in Wild Shape (like the ones a Natures Warrior gets) interact with Shapechange? Does, indeed, the Shapechange variant even qualify you for things that require Wild Shape?

Shapeshift is not Wild Shape so no. That said, if allowing the shift for Nature's Warrior to work for Shapeshift, it seems like those abilities would apply while shapeshifted, instead of while wild shaped, like normal.

Seems reasonable, would make shifting a bit more powerful (it's a bit lackluster for combat; mostly usable for scouting and moving).

Gnorman
2009-06-27, 07:09 AM
I'd heartily recommend a Ranger 11 / Nature's Warrior 5 / Warshaper 4 build myself - you'd cast as a level 13 Ranger, which ain't great but still passable. Your BAB should be 18, which is almost perfect. You'd shift as a level 16 Ranger, which is just enough to grab you the Elemental Fury form.

Pick up Claws of the Grizzly for +3 damage on natural weapons, Armor of the Crocodile for +5 NA, and Earth's Resilience for DR 3/-.

Warshaper will give you immunity to stun and criticals, a larger claw/bite size category, +4 STR/CON (untyped!), 5 ft. more reach (some of your Shapeshift forms are Large or even Huge, too, which makes it even better), and a permanent Fast Healing 2.

Basically, awesome. A literal melee monster. In Elemental Fury form, you'd have 20 ft. reach. +24 STR (16 from enhancement, 4 from the larger size, 4 from Warshaper). A pair of 3d6+15 slams. Of course, that's at level 20... not so feasible, and even then not really all that powerful. But for a melee class, it does pretty well.

Definitely pick up Combat Reflexes, but remember that the size increases also diminish your DEX and attack bonus.

Heck, a Ranger 16 / Warshaper 4 would be great too, though it'd lose out on the DR, damage bonus, and NA in exchange for 20 BAB and level 16 casting. Arguably worth it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-27, 07:52 AM
For shapechanging as a racial ability, check out the Canomorphs in the Fiend Folio. They're hound-shaped Outsiders (Hell Hound, Shadow Mastiff, and Vorr) who can take Humanoid forms, sort of the reverse of Lycanthropes. Note that the stats given for each includes class levels, which you can replace with whatever classes you'd want to take. They all have Outsider hit dice and a fairly steep level adjustment, but I think they're very interesting.

Shadurakul (Shadow Mastiff) is my favorite, mostly due to the Shadow Blend ability. It has 4 HD and a +4 LA, but I think it's worth it considering the ability scores (Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha +2) and other special abilities. I'd probably go with a Glaivelock build, using Eldritch Glaive with Power Attack, along with Darkness and Devil's Sight to take advantage of Shadow Blend. Be sure to include some Warshaper levels, I'd only get two or three, since you'd probably do most of your adventuring in humanoid form. Not necessarily a takes-other-forms type of character, but definitely a tricky shapechanger in flavor.

JellyPooga
2009-06-27, 08:56 AM
OK thanks guys, you just confirmed my own thoughts on the matter :smallwink: I always like to get second opinions when I have a brainstorm and it's always nice to get responses that match your own!

@Biff: I'm not overly fond of playing Outsiders at the best of times, let alone evil ones. I don't really know why...I like playing other evil characters; necromancers, assassins, general bad-guys, but not evil Outsiders. Canomorphs just never really struck me as potential characters. Minions or Summoned creatures? Yes, even a recurring Villain maybe. PC? Not so much. It's possibly something to do with the Int hit most of them have (I like to play characters with a brain :smallbiggrin:). Like you say though; they do make for an interesting shapechanger.